>>65593187
The current meta favors stealth, sensors, networking and BVR missille spamming. Russia jets are still focused on short ranged turning dogfights.

1. Significant technological and industrial deficit.
2. We never see a fair fight between Russian and Western aviation.
3. Different doctrine.

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>>65593187
Do all mig-29s have that freaky humpback and I'm just now noticing it or is that some CFT shit?

>>65593200
No, the one in the pic is an SMT model.

The soviets started to lag behind the west in microelectronics in the 70s and basically never caught up, and the Russians inherited that shortfall. Thats the big thing holding all their shit back, they tried bridging the gap using French electronics for a lot of shit before Crimea (the Armata being a case study in this, most of its optics and FCS being made by Thales; hence why the project died after the sanctions hit) but now they're reliant on domestic and Chinese shit which just isn't competitive.

>>65593187
They were sort of dated when they were first introduced and kept getting more and more obsolete with time. Not nescessarily because the airframes were badly designed but because their tech wasn't up to it.

>>65593187
It all comes down to jet turbines. At the top end only a handful of companies are capable of building them and none of them sell to Russia. If your engines are worse then everything else ends up being worse as a consequence.

>>65593200
It's a CFT specific to the Product 9-19 (SMT) and 9-20 (UPG) version
There were some other prototypes with the CFT as well (9-17, 9-52)

>>65593193
>Russian and Western aviation
Indo-Pakistani Wars
Both sides use mostly similar tech crewed by similarly poor pilots.

As always, it's not the weapon itself, but everything around it. Radar networks, communication, tactics etc. etc.

>>65593297
pakis had significantly better pilots, in no small part because of western training instead of soviet

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>>65593187
worse avionics
worse radars
worse cockpits
worse sensors
worse computers
worse software
worse communications
worse controls
worse engines
worse fuel capacity
worse weapons
worse maintenance
worse durability
worse reliability
worse pilots
worse...

>>65593305
but in this case it's also the weapon itself

puccia can't even make proper tactical UAV with a decent EO

>>65593187
Russia has always sucked at electronics

>>65593306
Don't know if you've noticed, but the Cold War is over, and while India may still be friends with Russia they've also made friends with the West.

>>65593187
They're old and busted and their electronics are even more old and busted.

>>65593438
Yeah except my nigger USA tested East German MiG-29 shortly after the war. The findings were
>amazing maneuverability and performance outclassing early F-16 models
>HMS is bitchin
>So is IRST
Of course there were just negatives
>shit cockpit
>subpar radar
West Germans also tested MiGs
>iside ten nautical miles I’m hard to defeat, and with the IRST, helmet sight and ‘Archer’ I can’t be beaten. Period.

>>65593187
Dude, they're like 40 years old at this point.

>>65593650
The F-16 is 50 years old.

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>>65593187
>BBC POCCNN

>>65593187
I thought the '29 when it came out was pretty much on par with most Western fighters.
What happened?

>>65593532
That's nice, but doesn't really change that the Pakistani airforce is institutionally based on western practices, while the Indian one isn't.

>>65593792
They did not? They operated those birds until they literally used up the spare parts.

>>65593814
>>65593833
Poland is still operates some.

>>65593563
>>amazing maneuverability and performance outclassing early F-16 models
>>HMS is bitchin
>>So is IRST
the hms was for one short ranged missile and was literally a fixed monocle on a swing arm

everything else is zigger fantasy

>>65593563
you forgot to mention that those 10 nautical miles are also the migger's combat radius

>>65593854
>>65593792
Name a single thing he said that was wrong.

>>65593807
From what little I know about early MiG-29s they were great on paper and a serious threat to early F-16s and older NATO fighters but had serious radar and systems integration issues including the radar interfering with the RWR enough to make BVR a choice between using your radar and using your RWR.

>>65593187
>Why are jets from a nation that collapsed in 1991 and had a little civil war in 1993 have worse tech compared to the west?
Idk man.

>>65593792
Attempts at NATO integration had nothing to do with it, I'm sure.

>>65593857
Correct, poor range was also pointed out.

>>65593187
Even a great PESA radar will still be inferior to an AESA, and Russia still has that brain parasite telling them that every aircraft they design needs to be competitive in a dogfight.

>>65593888
>serious radar and systems integration issues
Oh KEK.

>>65593888
>Name a single thing he said that was wrong.

I'll go. The "amazing maneuverability" wank is just that. Wank.
IRL they have about the same STR as a F-16A, unless the fight goes below 5000 feet.
When it starts perfoming WORSE.
It's ITR is caps at 30deg/s and which is nothing special to an F-18!!!
While it's 3rd gen engines smoke so much it's like rolling coal.
And to match that light, one engine F-16 they needed to build a two engine medium fighter with much worse fuel economy.

>HMS is bitchin

HMS is a heavy bitch, which is why most pilots don't take it on often.

>So is IRST

Usefull at no more than 7 kms distance.

>iside ten nautical miles I’m hard to defeat,

So is the sparrow.

>>65593187
shit pilots, doctrine and slightly unergonomic cockpit layout compared to western designs
MiG-29 and Su-27 are the best jets out there, it's only that they lack the necessary support vehicles (by that I mean AWACS instead of GCI) to be true competitors to western models, otherwise they mog westerners with ease if we are to pit them in a pure 1v1, be it BVR or an old fashioned dogfight

>>65593187
>Why do Russian jet designs struggle so much against their Western counterparts?
Because Russia keeps doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

>here is new thing, it does everything better than anything ever made (obvious lie)
>five of the Russian thing ever get built, one is grounded in Kazakhstan and held hostage, the ransom price being the skull of the last Kazakh khan
>one crashes in Kyrgyzstan
>the remainder never leave the ground
>its capabilities are vastly inferior than stated, and get revised numerous times, each individual one produced is wildly different as there is no mass production
>America freaks out and makes something that exceeds the imaginary standards Russia created

>>65594084
lay off the copium anon, you're going to OD

>>65593193
>1. Significant technological and industrial deficit.
Only this one is largely correct

>2. We never see a fair fight between Russian and Western aviation.
Soviet aces working in place of arab pilots during the jew-arab wars tell a different story

>3. Different doctrine.
That's circular cope which they have to tell themselves due to their other issues.

Generally the issues a way deeper and won't fit into a 4chang post, but I can try to write up some qrd.

cont. >>65595058

1. The first and most obvious reason is indeed tied to significant technological and industrial deficit. Russia always faced this, when compared to the west, only with short stints of rapid attempts to catch up, after they'd hit rock bottom yet again. But by early 20s century shit would get into its terminal phase because weapons started to become more and more complex, requiring more and more tech, which widened the gap of capabilities to insane levels. Your jet can't be as good when the engines inside it aren't as efficient as the ones in western jets. Your jet can't be as good when the radar inside it isn't as good as the one inside a western jet. And so on and so forth. Shit, even your fuel is worse than that of western one, so good luck with that. But it in itself is a very surface level issue. It's a symptom, not the issue itself.

cont. >>65595066

2. The second layer of this is that a lot of this comes down to societal and cultural issues. Yes, really. Bolsheviks royally fucked up the societal practices and viewpoints that people have there. Some would say it wasn't the best even before that, but that was peanuts compared to what commies did. I'm not even talking about multiple rounds of negative selecting running its course, where the smartest, most talented and most capable people would get culled from the population. Nah, it's even worse than that. Commies broke the fabric of people having a normal organic relation to their work. One can say "but... but... but... USSR doesn't exist for 30+ years now" and yet this shit is still strong in their society and even more so still reproduced and passed along the generations. It's a big topic in its own but qrd is that people despise their work, even if they'd be paid a very generous salary. Why? Because generation after generation work was something the regime forced people to do for fake salaries. And now you have 23 y.o. zoomer still thinking the same shit their parents and grandparents lived through. It doesn't help that another zoomer who manages him still has the "i'm the boss, and you're the fool" soviet mentality.

So there's no chance to for any sort of quality of work, any sort of professionalism. Why bother working good when for almost a century people would get paid the same peanuts? Just don't give a shit, drink at work, fuck work and such. Remember the Proton space rocket which well on its side? It did so because a sensor got put upside down by an aerospace engineer in an assembly plant. It wasn't possible to install it upside down, it was designed to be "foolproof", but the engineer hammered it in and didn't give a shit. Because why should he? And it wasn't caught by QA because QA didn't do his job and instead looked at porn.

You can't have good complex shit when your workforce is almost all like that. Because society is like that.

cont. >>65595071

3. And last but definitely not least is the underlying issue of everything above. The degenerate culture underpinning everything. What you should understand is that russia is country the size of continent yet most of it is a wasteland that has an economy the size of Mexico. Shit, they can't even populate their own shithole with people (thank God though), as niggers in Africa do. Because it's a society/culture which time after time births regimes which squander trillions of dollars and insane levels of potential into shit. And the locals are okay with that. Because they don't believe they can make their own life good through their own work. They do believe that the only way to get something good is to take it away from someone else. Yes, really. When you see those retards screeching about "why do they live so good in Poland?!" it's not about envy, it's about they feeling that it was stolen from them. Because if someone else has it, then they don't have it. Yes, they truly think like that.

Russia is what happens when a new frontier a la North America is discovered but instead of people developing it into an economic superpower it just gets turned to shit. What you should understand that Czarist era scientist expected that by the year 2000 the population of russia would be about ~600 (six hundred) million people. That's even before modern industrial agriculture. Instead it's less than 1/4 of that. That's the level of squandering and fucking over things we're talking about.

During soviet years USSR spent billions of building shit for niggers, supplying shit to every possible subhuman dictator, spending billions for agents on influence abroad, funding and supply any possible terrorist organization just to create issues for western powers. Why regular people inside the country had to the train and ride hundreds of miles for a chance to buy some sausages.

>>65593193
>Different doctrine.
Designed for yes, but that doctrine in itself is inferior to other doctrines relating to usage.

>>65595082
>Because they don't believe they can make their own life good through their own work
It's tragicomical, they had a revolution for this but just made it worse instead. Then they got rid of the revolution, but it became worse afterwards anyway.

>>65595119
>Then they got rid of the revolution, but it became worse afterwards anyway.
Not really, this is mostly pro-regime/pro-bolshevik propaganda. Dismantling of USSR was the best thing which happened for a regular person.

>>65595119
>It's tragicomical, they had a revolution for this
They actually did not, you've got mindfucked by commie propaganda. The-soviet russia wasn't the greatest country, but it was "okay" all things considered. Sure, there were a fuck ton of issues, but the 50 years before bolsheviks were a time of tremendous progress for both society and regular people. People in fact were getting better and better. You can read some wild shit in Khrushchev's diaries. You can look up how after the reforms of Stolypin russia actually started to get a normal private farming class. For the first 10+ years of commie rule they internally put up their KPI to 1913 comparison, i.e. the last pre-WW1 year, because of how good the economy and industry was lol.
There was never a "communist revolution" in a true sense, initially the elites pushed out the Czar because he was a retard and a detriment to the country's stability (for a whole lot of reasons), the guy next in line chickened out. Provisional government took over. Then bolsheviks lost the elections and, deciding that they'd never have another chance like that, violently overthrew the provision government in a bloody coup. Then they've killed everyone who wasn't on their side.

>>65593206

The initial Soviet rejection of "cybernetics" caused them to lag behind Western computers and electronics in general, something they and Russia never recovered from. It's not a small gap either, but a major structural flaw.

>>65595071
Sometimes they hammer parachutes into a box to make it fit and then the reentry vehicle + cosmonaut turns into a pancake… with a lot of screaming by the cosmonaut.

>>65593187
I'm sure they could perform fine in capable hands. Shame they never found themselves in such

>>65595071
My parents (Bulgarians) had a saying, "They pretend to pay us so we pretend to work". It's shocking how much this mindset persists. It's only in the last decade or so that things are starting to improve, mainly because foreign companies are importing their own management and education programs. All of the boomer and genXers have to kick the bucket though before we fully recover from the societ days.

>>65595217
There's a video by Asianometry on the topic. Early soviet computer scientist created promising processor architecture and had strong math but design bureau infighting and party loyalty killed off any progress. Typical commie shit basically

>>65595254
>My parents (Bulgarians) had a saying, "They pretend to pay us so we pretend to work".
It was almost universal among the eastern block.

>It's shocking how much this mindset persists. It's only in the last decade or so that things are starting to improve, mainly because foreign companies are importing their own management and education programs.
Not just foreign companies but small and medium businesses getting opened up by younger-ish people as well.
A person might be even a bit naive in terms of how they have to deal with hired help and such, and gets scars when dealing with these soviet-coded faggots, but some still avoid going down to soviet levels of management. And the younger the guys the more of them are less tainted by this shit. But not in russia, by mid-2000s they got a closeted soviet restoration happen, when putin's KGB mafia friends replaced the more sane "market oligarchs" aligned people from power, and thus almost everything soviet became "good" by default from the official point of view. This resulted in the retarded views also becoming re-addopted en masse.

>>65595217
>>65595254
The rejection of cybernetics is mostly overplayed. A way bigger role in this were the following two things:

1. Decision to clone western stuff vs doing their own stuff. The people in the regime knew that local industry generally sucked ass and also didn't trust local engineers to make their own stuff, cloning proven western stuff was a safer choice, but it was a wrong choice long-term-wise. You copy and clone to get the things rolling and then should move to iterating on the clone and slowly moving to making your own stuff. Soviets got stuck cloning shit. And with complexity growing each generation, along with fabrication becoming smaller, this caused an effect where for you to clone the every next generation you have to spend more and more time than the previous one. E.g. so when you'd fully reverse engineer a 286 Intel would release a Pentium.

cont. >>65595289

2. The lack of market, which would move a fuck ton of movie into the PC industry, caused the lack of expansion of the industry. Soviet PCs were ungodly fucking expensive, partially because of a fuck ton of manual labor, partially because of lack of mass production. The local economy needed PCs, enterprises needed PCs, and they would be even willing to pay those fucked up prices for shitty soviet PCs, but they couldn't buy them because it wasn't a free market for that crap. So when US has an explosive growth in selling PCs and building PCs and making shit for them, USSR had administrative crap trying to pull computer expansion out from its ass. Comparing hard numbers is tough, but it's something like 8K PCs in 1985 for USSR and 6M in US. Almost 1000x difference. By late 80s USSR was trying to catch up in numbers and showed impressive growth (no shit, when you start from such fucked numbers any growth looks good), but it was still suffocating.

Now imagine we're not talking about PCs themselves. PCs aren't just a product, they are like electricity - a multiplier, a qualitative jump in efficiency for economy about what's possible to do. Now imagine how US economy got a ton of benefit from PCs becoming more and more widespread while the soviet economy still had abacuses in stores in 1991 (true story), because they couldn't even afford to supply calculators to everyone.

>>65593854
its even more delusional than russians, its south korean ROK army conscripts that never fired a gun even in training talking shit about beating the norks on their own while america huddles and cries tier insane.

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>>65595133
Well the debate is whether we don't like the Russians for being commies or whether we don't like the Russians for being Russians.

Idk I think they're just Russians. It's the Inhabited Island. Whatever the current ideology doesn't really matter. If you read about the Russian army in the 19th century, they were having the same problems then. It's like Russia has changed radically in 200 years but also not at all. So it makes me think the regime the Bolsheviks set up was as in some ways also a continuation and not just a radical rupture (although it was that too). Back in the 1800s they were an artillery and fortification centric army with corrupt sleazebag officers and conscripts. The generals back in the Crimean War read like Shoigu (who is an idiot) and Gerasimov (who mostly drinks a lot).

Also when thinking about revolution (and there was a revolution, but I'm talking about the February revolution, there were hundreds of thousands of people on strike and the army was mutinying) is not things getting worse, necessarily, but things getting better, because increased expectations run up against obstacles placed by the political system. Revolutions are always contradictory, paradoxical historical events. So you have a lot of economic growth in Russia in the early 20th century, but Stolypin was assassinated (you forgot to mention this), possibly by a conspiracy by ultra-conservatives in the Tsarist system who opposed his reforms, which put an end to them. Russia's economy most recently grew fastest in the 2000s and then fell off after the financial crisis and stagnated as the government became more repressive and veered into military adventurism. Which is probably related. They have a big problem with political transition there because the state is a half-constructed kind of thing, the foundation is weak, and they're using the war to select out the "wrong" people for the "right" people so SMO orcs can run it after Putin dies and perpetuate the system.

Russia is a poorly educated impoverished trash country that has endless debtbandca failed leadership.

They suck because Russia has sucker for decades.

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>>65595133
Also you're right that the Bolsheviks were crazy people and the civil war destroyed the country. A lot of what they seemed to do was to try to copy / duplicate Western industry, especially American, but the state would control it. The Soviet industry in the 1930s was famously built by American corporations. Even traditional Russian cuisine was replaced by mass-produced cafeteria food modeled on America at the time.

But here's one difference. Think about oil. If you own some land in Texas, if there's a possibility of oil under there, you will have dozens of wildcat companies competing trying to get at that oil. And it'd be the best day of your life. Sure, they'll build a big ugly oil derrick in your backyard but you'll get rich and those property rights will be protected by law. I'm not sure Russia has ever had a good system for that. In countries like that, discovering oil under your land can be the worst day of your life because the government will just come take it. Think of Saudi Arabia for another example. They're rich with oil but the system rewards patronage. Also think about how fracking came around. The oil was down there, they just had to find a way to get at it, so you had a lot of experimentation by different companies operating within a system of predictable rules.

It sounds boring to say it comes down "political institutions," like something Francis Fukuyama would say, but idk.

>>65593187
Because they are not Chinese.

That is the penultimate answer.

You can close the thread OP.

>>65595290
>a multiplier, a qualitative jump in efficiency for economy about what's possible to do
I'd like to add to that. Apparently, when soviet factories tried implementing computer management, they saw a massive decline in productivity. This wasn't because the new system was less efficient but rather it was showing the actual productivity of the factory that had up to that point been vastly over reported. This led to managers being reluctant to implement computers because it would reveal how they were lying about their performance. Now sure how true this story is btw, but it damn well sounds believable to me.
>>65595319
>poorly educated
There was no lack of soviet engineers. Higher education was one of the only ways to avoid military service, aka avoid getting raped repeatedly for two years. Problem is, no matter how good of an engineer you are, you have to do what you're told by your higher ups, which were often retarded and only landed their positions because of party connections.

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>>65593725
>mfw

>>65595335
>Now sure how true this story is btw, but it damn well sounds believable to me.
This is common factor and not even soviet specific. Look at how retards go all "hurr-durr look at how they've arrested another corrupt faggot in ukraine", not realizing that arresting them is a sign of things getting better instead of worse.
But yeah, soviet reports were all fake & gay to such levels that it wasn't even funny. Doesn't matter if it was industry, agriculture or things like education, law enforcement and such.

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>>65595058
>Soviet aces working in place of arab pilots during the jew-arab wars tell a different story

>>65595133
>You can read some wild shit in Khrushchev's diaries.
Khrushchev had an extremely well paying job in one of the most rich regions of Russia, his words on
>I as a factory worker then lived better than commie leader now
mean not a lot. It's hard to comprehend of how of a shithole Russia was. You think of Russians as "Europeans, but poor, because czar oppression", but no, outside of selected bunch of Russian society, like kulaks, the rest of them could not ever be called civilized at all, they were closer to Uncontacted peoples, the gap was this big.

>>65595347
Yes, if you read what soviet aces said it would cause the local commiefags to collapse into a black hole

>>65595347
Brownoids look at that one damaged plane and make a whole generational mythology around it.

>>65595348
Yep

>N. S. Khrushchev recalled:
>"I got married in 1914, at the age of twenty. Since I had a good trade - I was a fitter - I was able to rent an apartment right away. It had a living room, a kitchen, a bedroom, and a dining room. Years have passed since the revolution, and it pains me to think that I, a worker, lived much better under capitalism than workers live today under Soviet rule. We overthrew the monarchy and the bourgeoisie; we won our freedom - yet people are living worse than they did before.
>As a fitter in the Donbas before the revolution, I earned 40-45 rubles a month. A pound (410 grams) of black bread cost 2 kopecks, and white bread cost 5 kopecks. Lard was 22 kopecks a pound, and eggs were 1 kopeck apiece. A good pair of boots cost 6, or at most 7, rubles. But after the revolution, earnings dropped - significantly, in fact - while prices soared..."
>Later, he also noted: "I was better off in the pre-revolutionary era, working as a simple fitter. I earned 45 rubles, while black bread cost 2 kopecks, white bread 5 kopecks, a pound of lard 22 kopecks, an egg 1 kopeck, and the best boots - 'Skorokhod' brand - cost up to 7 rubles. Is there even any comparison to be made?
>When I was engaged in Party work in Moscow, I didn't have even half of that, even though I held a fairly high position in the socio-political sphere. Other people were even worse off than I was."
>“But we looked toward the future, and our imagination in this regard knew no bounds; it inspired us, beckoned us onward - to the struggle for the transformation of life…”

>>65593807
>What happened
Bad intel. The west believed thelRussian tech reports.

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>>65595347
here's a more informative pic for that

>>65594084
Is that why they constantly lose to western jets, zanon?
Shit the F-16,a 70s jet design, supposed to be a light day only fighter, has Mig29 AND SU-35 kills... The latest and graetest rosnig jet, with PESA radar, awacs and gci, 2020s pidor missile tech, covered by MIG31s with 150nm missiles. Beaten by an old 90s airframe running a mechnical radar from the late years of the 20th century and some 2000s missiles...

How does that happen, zanon ???

>>65595989
>Mig29 AND SU-35
Pure unadulterated luck and complacency on the russian pilot part.

>>65595326
How do the Chinese Sukoi derivatives compare to the Russian ones? It seems the Chinese are deemphasizing their production as of late in favor of their fully domestic models

>>65596058
Chinese took the Flanker airframe (which is unequivocally good) and stuffed it full of quality avionics which is where the Russians fall flat. Also they fire Chinese missiles which are superior to what the Russians have on offer and are even better than many American options.

>>65596072
Is there any operational data to back up those claims? It seems that China is the only operator of the J-11/15/16

>>65596079
In terms of raw combat data it's pretty much just the Indo-Pakistani kerfuffle, and that's for the missiles. As for the rest of our sources on Chinese equipment capabilities that's mostly from the likes of the Royal United Services Institute and International Institute for Strategic Studies, not much in the way of that combat data since China hasn't fought a war in decades.

>>65595353
No, they'd just claim it was a CIA psyop.

>>65596079
The huge number of sell out western companies that helped the Chicoms build it.

>>65593187
Outside of arabs and africans misusing them can you name some examples?

>>65593532
>BRICS is not a thing
Okay. India was and will always be third world in the classic definition of the phrase.

>>65596058
They've come a long way from the licensed J-11 model. The latest versions use domestic Chinese engines, have better avionics and use a lot of composite materials. There's even a Growler equivalent developed from the Sino Flanker series. They don't seem to be as focused on outright manuverability like the original Flankers since the Chinese didn't care to put any thrust vectoring models in production, rather focusing on electronics much like the Americans do.

>>65597908
>They don't seem to be as focused on outright manuverability like the original Flankers since the Chinese didn't care to put any thrust vectoring models in production, rather focusing on electronics much like the Americans do.
Makes sense, since their theory of victory is to zerg rush US awacs and tankers.

>>65593807
Being very maneuverable and having the meme missile was about all it had going for it, it also had the combat range of a thrown rock and required more spares and maintenance than a clapped out BMW on its 12th owner. It didn't take long for the Western planes to close the gap and at that point they did the MiG-29s role but also so much more, and the MiG couldn't close the gap the other way and was kinda left behind.

Communism

>>65593193
plus GCI control and training to limit the pilots ability to use their own initiative, they might decide that life in the west is better, like Viktor Belenko did with his MiG-25

>>65593364
ok but they look really cool that's kind of all that matters

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>>65598253
>but they look really cool that's kind of all that matters
The USSR won the cold chic war long ago.

>>65597823
It mystifies that China is still called communist in the big 2026 simply because they put a hammer and sickle on a red banner, as if a symbol and a colour defines your nation's policies.

>>65599353
Aren't a large sum of their companies state-owned?

>>65593187
They also struggle with reality, physics, aerodynamics, being Russian, budget problems, incorrect alloys, and being russian a second time.

>>65595376
Thirdies Thirding Thirdies.

>>65598253
If you're going to die, might as well die in style.

>>65593193
>We never see a fair fight between Russian and Western aviation.
soviet pilots in north korea were an open secret, everyone knew they were there but no one wanted to point it out because it would cause a significant escalation of conflict

they were better than the chinese pilots but ultimately, and the MIG-15 was about as close to the F-86 sabre as you could get in realistic performance
and the ratio was roughly 1.1:1 in favor of the US, so US pilots were slightly better but not by a meaningful amount

but soviet training programs were way behind US training programs, so the gap slowly widened as the war progressed once their initial pilots were lost to attrition and their replacements werent nearly as good

>>65599405
That doesn't make you communist, that makes you an authoritarian capitalist.

>>65599655
>seize the means of production
>this makes you capitalist, actually

>>65598253
Most of them do not look cool in fact

>>65599335
Yes, a single prototype looks cool, while actual gear looks like shit usually

>>65599353
China is a soviet regime still (just like USSR made them one). Just because they have some private businesses and a local rich class doesn't change things much.

>>65599672
Buddy, a majority of China's economy is private, just because they like having strategic sectors be state-owned doesn't make them communist, come on.

>>65595133
>but the 50 years before bolsheviks were a time of tremendous progress for both society and regular people
Yeah, that was thanks to Kruschev trying to make the economy less communist, and he was promptly ousted for that.

>>65599707
The Sino-Soviet split occurred in the late 1950's, this is one of the primary reasons the United States reopened diplomatic channels with China, to act as a counterbalance to Russia. To call China a parody of the Soviet Union, especially in 2026 is so out of touch I'm genuinely struggling to comprehend your reasoning.

>>65599717
He wasn't even trying to make the economy less communist, he still was kinda a true believer, he just was trying to make it less bureaucratic, less unwieldy and less fucked up. But even this was considered "bad" by the bureaucratic class of the party.

Because they were designed for a sort of fighting that no longer exists. Then there's the Russians being pretty far behind in regards to electronics and material sciences. Most importantly of all is the fact Russians are drunken homosexual rapists.

>>65599707
Some private business? Nigga, keep your mouth shut. You're embarrassing us.

>>65599718
You are an autistic retard, which doesn't know shit and relies on bullshit external markers. You know nothing about USSR or China. China is in fact a soviet regime, just with a fancy business suit hiding its rotten soviet core, asiatic "exotic" status masking soviet retardation and a fuck ton of money invested into good PR.

China, similar to DPRK and many other countries, is a soviet occupational proxy force first and foremost. Even regimes tied to people who had their struggle before commies got involved (a la Vietnam or Cuba) got deeply "sovietized" once USSR got involved, including through direct training of locals and so on. Then after a while they start to reproduce the soviet nature organically from the inside. And no amount of economic reforms would change it. Or are you one of those dumb faggots which think that USSR didn't have corruption, private business, rich people, oligarchs?

Like holy shit, do you even know how DPRK or East Germany appeared on the map? Do you think those were some local organic regimes? They were nothing more than a variant of those "dombas republics" russia was playing around with in 2014 in ukraine.

>The Sino-Soviet split
Doesn't matter. China literally fought a war against Vietnam. Both countries are soviet hellholes. Poland, East Germany, Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania (all soviet regimes) all participated into the invasion and occupation of Czechoslovaia (also a communist regime at the time) in 1968 under the leadership of USSR.

>>65599744
>You know nothing about USSR or China.
>China is in fact a soviet regime
what?

>>65599744
For someone who claims to be an erudite on the Second World you don't seem to understand that a truly wealthy class didn't appear in the Soviet Union until its twilight years, and the oligarchs only arose due to the disastrous redistribution of state-owned enterprises after its collapse. As for China being a proxy of the USSR I'm not even going to dignify that with a response because it arguably wasn't even true under early Mao and certainly not during the latter years of his reign.

>>65599751
At its core, China remains a soviet party-state, built on essentially the same political principles as USSR. The communist party maintains a monopoly on political power. There is no meaningful electoral competition, no independent judiciary capable of challenging (((the Party))) and no free press. The Party controls the military, security services, state institutions, and appointments to key positions throughout society. Even the organizational structure remains fundamentally soviet: party committees embedded throughout institutions, ideological supervision, and a nomenklatura-style system of political appointments.

The market reforms changed how wealth is produced, but not who ultimately holds power. Private enterprise exists, billionaires exist, and markets play a major role in the economy. Yet private property and business autonomy remain subordinate to the political interests of the communist party. The state retains control over strategic industries, while even major private corporations operate under (((Party oversight))). Hence when even a top billionaire voices some political views about stuff in society he gets "disappeared" from the public life and "re-educated" so that he knows his place.

>>65599760
So do you think that the Soviet Union invented authoritarianism and consolidation of power or what.

>>65599755
>truly wealthy class didn't appear in the Soviet Union until its twilight years
My negro friend, you are delusional.

1. Wealthy people appeared literally in 1921 with the introduction of NEP, where the commies had to revert back from true communism (which destroyed everything) to a market economy, so that the economy could restore itself.

2. Wealthy class existed all the way. It just wasn't shown in official society. Regular people took the train to ride 200 KM to buy sausages, wealthy people went into a specialized "Beryozka" store and bought anything they wanted, including western imported products, without a care in the world.

>>65599770
The only thing particularly communist about China is the emphasis it places on the party, otherwise it's your standard authoritarian fare.

>>65599770
>authoritarianism and consolidation
As the russians say, "you're comparing a dick with a finger" (yes, really). Authoritarian regimes existed everywhere, but there's a distinct difference between say Franco's Spain and a soviet regime.

>>65599777
Hence my emphasis on the term "truly", as while the "more equal" have indeed almost always existed during the Soviet Union those who could be considered wealthy by Western standards only started appearing years before the collapse.

>>65599784
>those who could be considered wealthy by Western standards
A. It wasn't the west, so why are you trying to judge them by western standards? The divide between regular people and them was orders of magnitude, which is the proof of their place in society.
B. Even wealthy people by western standards existed in USSR, despite the fact that there wer less of them. Like shit, nigger, go read up on the uzbek cotton scandal and how thousands of people were making gangbusters via corruption and stealing from the state. People had homes full of gold and cash lmao. And it continued for decades. And this was just one example KGB decided to "uncover" for political reasons. USSR was full of such crap.

>>65599707
>China is a soviet regime still
lol

Dude, don't talk authoritatively about things you don't understand and haven't studied.

>>65599705
well because most of them are scrap metal wrecks lying in fields but i meant the operational ones of course

>>65599798
>People had homes full of gold and cash lmao.
And yet non-potable tap water, crumbling roads, almost no access to desirable consumer goods and without belonging to a functioning community. """Rich""" people in shit societies still have an impoverished life, no matter how many gaudy baubles, embarassing trinkets or gold panels adorn their home.

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>>65593187
Malaysian pilot in Su-30MKM and Mig-29 have proven otherwise against USAF F-15/16, USN F-18 and even F-22

For reminder of what happened during the last Cope Taufan, the F-22 lost to the Sukhois by a 3 time lockdown confirmed kills. the RMAF Sukhoi SU-30MKM were be able to detect and locked into USAF Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor in stealth mode during Cope Taufan 2014 joined USAF & RMAF exercises.

None other than former US Navy pilot Trevor "Gonky" Hartsock is a Boeing contractor who'd trained RMAF Hornet pilots when MLU prog was initiated to bring the Malaysian D++ Nitestrike variant to Mod25X standard.

Gonky's top 5 toughest dogfight:
>1. RMAF BAe Hawk Mk108/208
>2. Northrop F-5
>3. RMAF Su-30MKM
>4. F-16
>5. Boeing F/A-18

As per Gonky's deduction as former USAF Reserve adversary pilot and former Boeing contractor, the RMAF Su-30MKM is considered as a formidable fighter in the air giving great opportunity for USAF pilots to hav a feel on their potential opponent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duejFDL04P0

The F-22 never comes around Malaysia anymore because China doesn't like the idea of Su-30MKM which is more advanced than their basic J-15 being used by Raptor pilots to develop countermeasures.

>>65600903
>t. Indog

Deal with your smog problem first faggot!

Harder to steal technologies these days.

>>65600937
>chinks redirect F-35 parts to be shipped into chinkland

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>>65598253
so fvking zased

>>65595376
>kike sources
C'mon now anon

>>65600949
Still have subpar engines and coatings.

>>65599782
The Russians have so many lovely sayings, it's a shame they have to be such a shit on the global stage. I think they (or maybe it was Hungary) have the best variation on the phrase "have your cake and eat it too" which goes something to the effect of "thinking you're bound for heaven with a cock in your ass'

>>65601190
I know this is /k/ and any opinion which deviates from the consensus is branded as "shilling" but this is just untrue, they've come a long way since Soviet/Russian imports and copies.

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>>65593532
When you are friends with everyone, you are friends with no one.

>>65599744
>Invading Forces: Led by the Soviet Union, joined by troops from Poland, Bulgaria, and Hungary (with East German units ordered to halt just before crossing, and Romania and Albania refusing to participate)
>refusing to participate
>Albania strongly condemned the August 1968 Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia and officially withdrew from the Warsaw Pact the following month
>officially withdrew
>from the Warsaw Pact
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8_zQo4wtNI
You sure are smart and knowledgeable in the intricacies of Cold War history.
Also I commend your 300 confirmed kills.