How true were "monkey models"? Does USA, Russia, China (and smaller arms export countries like France or SK) still sell monkey models to their customers? How much worse were the "monkey" variants compared to the regular ones?
>>65602026>Does USAEw, a foreigner
>>65602026Complete bullshit. Way more expensive to have different manufacturing tiers with something like this. If you read the CIA report, even though it's heavily redacted, the weights for both export and domestic are identica (indicating same armor scheme)l, and armor protection guarantee are identical for both export and domestic.
>>65602100the T-72M was essentially just the baseline T-72 with some, but not all, improvements that were later given to the T-72A and issued older sub-caliber roundsthey werent deliberately downgraded, they were actually upgraded compared to the original, just to a lesser extend compared to the T-72A and Bs that top-shelf soviet units were equipped
>>65602108T72M= T72 Ural T72M1=T72A with some meme armor welded to the front plate T72 was made to be cheap zerg rush mobile The export ones were better than the domestic because they had to do some shit to attract buyers
Like how much worse is the T-90S compared to the T-90A? Or how much worse were the Ukranian Abrams tanks?
>>65602154all russian equipment is dogshit
>>65602154>Like how much worse is the T-90S compared to the T-90A?Depends on if its before or after the Indians came crawling back to the Russians to install the newer and improved russian made engine filters instead of the Indian made ones (that roughly half of were delivered and 5-10 years late from the initial ordering date.) Where said Indian made filters couldn't even withstand the Indian heat
>>65602100Demonstrably objectively false statement, there are explicit export models of tanks you FOOL
>>65602026It's a cope, the problem is arab and african soldiers.
Export models have things like CBRN filtration systems stripped out since developing nations don't need it and cannot use it. Operation and maintenance are also simplified since most of the people using it are semi-literate at best. Preventative maintenance is likely nonexistent, with the mentality that if it's not completely broken then everything is fine.
>>65602233This board will never mentally recover from the pre-2022 Russian shillpocalypse, huh? Can't have a conversation even tangentially involving Russia because retards will chimp out.
>>65602242And you're not helping the eternal enshittification of this board by making the retards chimp out more, bot.
>>65602317>retards>2022nta I've been calling Russian equipment dogshit since 2003 and been proven more correct every day
>>65602026the only real monkey model is the leopards in turk hands embarrassing all germoids. Honeslty don't think the indian vs pakistan jet stuff was that controversial. both planes sucks in either hands. theyre all brownoids.
>>65602154Supposedly has better turret protection because they don't have the shota dazzlers. Of course nominally it's a downgrade because it lacks part of the APS, but that APS is apparently worthless against anything but the oldest TOWs and MILANs. Then again the shitholes that would buy export T90s would probably face old model ATGMs so honestly it's kind of a wash. I guess from an operator's perspective that's one less thing to break, which is nice
>>65602334Was pretty impressive how a light single-engine took down a heavier twin-engine equipped with the best AAM on the market today.
>>65602275At this point the 1991 Iraqi army was more competent than the modern Russian army.
>>65602131>T72M1=T72A with some meme armor welded to the front platethe added 15mm steel plate makes sense contextuallythe russians didnt know about the capabilities of US sub-caliber rounds until they captured some from israeli 105mm M111 rounds via the arabswhat they found was that these new rounds could hole their T-72s from standard combat rangesthe 15mm HHA plate couldnt actually stop M111, but it did extend their safe zone against it by about 200-ish meters, which was about the best result they could get after being told to find a solution that could be implemented in a few monthsthis would have actually worked better than they expected against earlier M735 sub-caliber rounds, the M111 was actually a locally designed israeli upgradethe M777 would exceed the M111 in penetration and leave the armor upgrade once again, it never actually ceased to be relevant since M735 was being issued until the end of the cold war due to how much ammo the army needed and the good ammo had priority to armored units in germany
>>65602026the abrams that gets exported lacks DU armor but that's really it
>>65602026i mean the abrams tanks ukraine got are legit "worse" than the abrams the us army uses (m1a1 vs m1a2 sepv3), but its not like they just built worse tanks they just sold them old ones.
>>65602026>Does France sell monkey models?The baguetteers sometimes did quite the opposite with their aircraft, selling better kitted out versions abroad then what the Armée de l'air ordered.- Swiss Mirages were turbo pimped with nuke drop capability, AIM-4 Falcon missile integration, american radar and special equipment for underground base handling.- Iraqi Mirage F1Qs got such extensive avionics suite that it made the French Air Force staff butthurt (conveniently forgetting that they specifically wanted their F1s as cheap and simple as possible).Hell, even the Bongs designed a better Chieftain with composite armor and real engine for the Iranians - who ended up not buying them due to revolution.
>>65602337>shota dazzlersMy oh my
>>65602337>they don't have the shota dazzlersyou mean shtora, right? right?
>>65602865better quality version
>>65602681I genuinely wonder if 1991 Iraq could have held back Russia in 2022. They had the mass in equipment, manpower, experienced officers, coordination between AD and ground, a fairly lqrge airforce, etc. Other than the long range ballistics Russia didn't go in with anything too sophisticated and modern and they would not have had the ability to achieve air dominance even in several months of efforts.
>>65603154Russia is struggling just a few klicks from their own border; they'd be faring even worse if they had to project that same military all the way over to Iraq.
>>65602865>>65602983Eh futari futanari, it's all greek to me
>>65602026It's the opposite for Malaysia. Google Su-30 MKM and PT-91 MBT. We buy "cheap" slavshit but then gucci it up until it is as expensive as westshit.
>>65602026>How true were "monkey models"?Sort of true, sort of untrue.Middle eastern nations often got the tanks but didn't get the newest ammo alongside them. Resulting in substandard performance from their cannons.A lot also were missing shit like night vision, apparently some even lacked power traverse.Then you get the lowest of the low, where they produced monkey models OF the monkey models, allegedly some of these were made of fucking MILD STEEL.
>During the late 1980s, many Polish and Czechoslovak T-72Ms, as well as those of their clients, underwent a gradual modernization programme. Improvements from the Soviet T-72A programme were gradually phased in including the substitution of full skirts for the gill armour, fitting the System 902A smoke grenade launchers and the addition of the 17 mm appliqué armour panel on the glacis to boost protection up to T-72A standards.
>>65602026>How true were "monkey models"?true, but there was no real need to deliberately downgrade shit, just sell them old stuff>Does USAlook at the list of customers allowed to buy F-16s but not F-15s (until recently) and F-35s (for now)>Russiaone of the main reasons why Ukraine had difficulty defending their airspace from day one is that they only had access to a 60s-era semiactive-guided long-range air-to-air missile whereas the Russians had longer-ranged active-guided fire-and-forget missiles>>65602154>how much worse were the Ukranian Abrams tanks?IINM all the Ukrainian equipment don't have the US Army Blue Force Tracker or whatever they call it now, so significantly worse in terms of situational awarenessI also certain they also don't have the best US radios>>65602334>le both sides>>65602346a well-handled F-16 can kill an F-15 flying stupid, doesn't mean shit>>65602856the reason is usually budget. foreign customers are willing to pay the incremental R&D for the add-ons. the exponential pace of the digital revolution also meant that it was pretty cheap tooeven the US does this. the F-15SA was for a time the best F-15 flying.
In some cases they're better because they roll in production improvements to fix deficiencies found in early domestic batches, or the client is willing to fund things that the developing nation felt was unnecessary, or decided to cut to save money.Or a client has lesser MTBF requirements, that mean the domestic ones have down-rated powerplants, or limited performance envelopes, so the powertrain and load-bearing structures last longer - with an option to up-rate everything in war time to the design limits.
>>65603154>mfw the Moskva gets sunk by a fucking scud or silkworm missile
>>65603274>the Moskva gets sunk by a fucking scud or silkworm missileApparently only one of the SIX CIWS systems was operational, and even that one was possibly fucked up. Not to mention how shit the radars were (the only remaining CIWS was probably in the last-ditch OPTICAL mode)So a silkworm would actually have sunk her pretty easily.
>>65602026that:s an asad babil, an upgraded variant with some spaced armor on the glacis, wider tracks for better offroad (i think) and an electro-optical countermeasures pod (it's missing in this example, it goes on the small platform on the left side of the turret). some also had thermal optics, and some entrenching tool installed in the engine.
>>65602100Then why does USA pay extra to have different manufacturing tiers based on whether it's export or domestic Abrams?
>>65602026little known fact is that all export versions of the F-35 has a kill switch that the US military can use against any foreign "ally" that gets uppity.
>>65603255>true, but there was no real need to deliberately downgrade shit, just sell them old stuffI guess for a while that was what Soviet Union did.-First T-54s went into service in 1947 but Soviet Union would export only T-34s and IS-2s until 1956 when the T-54 (and IS-3) was finally exported-T-62 went into service in 1961. Wouldn't be exported until late 60s and by that point the T-64 was in service and T-72 would be soon.in service as well. So Soviets offered the T-62 to T-54/T-55 customers after they already had a more advanced replacement.-T-64 was never exported (until the fall of Soviet Union) as it was actually more advanced than the more simplified and less expensive T-72-T-72 wasn't exported until 1978 by which point the more advanced T-64B and T-80B were in service in Soviet Union. And even then the export variant was made into a monkey model with worse armor than the domestic one in the form of the T-72M and T-72M1. And Soviets also didn't export the T-72B once that was introduced in 1985 but continued to export the T-72A based T-72M1.-T-80 wasn't exported (until the fall of Soviet Union) because it was their most advanced tank.Honestly the only time Soviet exported tanks that were as good as they had was in the brief window of 1956-1961 when the T-54/T-55 was their most advanced tank before the T-62 was introduced. And as far as I'm aware the T-54s and T-55s exported during those years (and years after) weren't monkey models. And even then maybe they only exported the T-54 only because they had the T-10 tank. Or maybe they realized their allies need better tanks than T-34s since USA had started to export the M47 Patton and UK the Centurion couple years earlier.
