>Replaces your 9mm
>>65611493what is main point of selling Belgian five seven pistol if i prefer wearing sweatpants and driving toyota prius over gas guzzling nazi amg
What was the story about a perp getting shot over and over with 5.7 and yelling at the cops to "stop shooting me with that thing"? Literal meme round, lmao. Not even yard pest removal tier.
>>65611493The blue tips were implessive. People always talk about 5.7's (outdated) armor penetration capability as the selling point, but the round really shines as a lightweight, high capacity, low recoil defensive option with the right ammo selection. If I had the dosh, I'd buy one for my mom to replace the shitty old XD she can barely handle.
>>65611502Something you made up in your head it seems
>>65611512Normalfags only care about penetration but a normal human body is like 6-8 inches thick facing the bullet. The bullets are hitting where they are suppose to end, stuck into the hole they caused deep in the body.
I use .380 :)
>>65611493The video ended with the cartridge giving the most pathetic subsonic performance I've ever seen.
>>65611524>Normalfags only care about penetration but a normal human body is like 6-8 inches thick facing the bullet. The bullets are hitting where they are suppose to end, stuck into the hole they caused deep in the body.12-18 inches of penetration in 10% ballistic gel is analogous to 6-10 inches of penetration in the human body due to the fact that humans have clothes, bone, and various different forms of tissue in their bodies. A bullet that only penetrates 3-5 inches in a gel block is the kind of bullet that might get stuck in one's ribs or sternum and not reach the vitals at all.
>>65611524Threatening people that need to be shot usually aren't standing upright with their arms idle to their sides.
>>65611550It's not meant for subsonic
i love how the guy has to wear the same outfit he wore that day to be recognized. like tony hawk wearing a skateboard helmet
>>65611579The first shot usually breaks their posture for that to matter, and there is no such thing as the one shot myth if it didn't hit anything critical. In fact given the situation you won't need more power because competent people that do the unthinkable are drugged up and feel nothing when they do get hit unless that bullet itself is able to cause structural damage, therefore rupture of nerve endings. At that point it's not a handgun at all that is needed, but a big bore or something similar energy greater than 500lbs.It's easier to shoot a lighter bullet, than control a heavier one. It's also more important for those shots to hit. Deciding on evidence that happenstance for a major decision is just a foolish thing to obsess about if the alternatives are not much better. Also this isn't the 1980's anymore, nobody carries 6 shot revolvers, but also I expect most people with those options are never prepared for a planned shooting rampage over personnel defense.
>>65611493>peak alloy making military carriages gooder I sleep>peak alloy making a 22tcm style cartridge doable from a 380* platform556supershort will solve the mouse gun/9minimal question.That and the coming of 45sexualtyrannosaurus will solve the carry question all together.The muzzle signature will be raised and everything will be understood.
>>656114939mm dominates the market because it's what do you call it, I think it's called a shelling point? It's where a market kind of stacks up on "the one everyone knows".It's incredibly difficult to beat that kind of market share, even with improvements across many dimensions.
>>65611493Who are these fags
>>65611524>The average man is 6 inches at the chestAnon that's including women and jeets.
>>65611493I already replaced my 9mm with 45 ACP, because all the “innovations” for making 9mm better were just making it heavier and hotter to mimic what 45 already does. There’s no reason to switch to 5.7x28, which is going in the opposite direction by making the projectile extremely lightweight. There’s only niche I can really think of for 5.7 is for food shooters who can’t deal with the massive recoil of 9mm (lol) but also have hands big enough for 5.7 pistols and wouldn’t mind that 5.7 is significantly louder at the muzzle than 9mm. Most female shooters are better served by small 380s that are actually feasibly concealable for them. (You) are never getting into a gunfight where 20+ rounds will be expended, so there goes the biggest argument for 5.7 anyway.
>>65612032*foid shooters
>>65611493they both look wack
>>65611928At the chest they'd cancel each other out, wouldn't they?
>>65611920One of them is balding ungracefully and trying to remain relevant, the other looks like some hippy brownoid.
>>65611493shout out to the armchair operators crying about him missing his first shot
>>65611493>shoots at some chud in a parking lot with a 5.7>miss every shot>get multiple people killed>HES A HECKIN HERO YASS!do gun autists really?
>>65611502Are they going to shoot the Ft Hood TERRORIST with it? They should.
>>65611550>the most pathetic subsonic performanceI read>subatomicAnd almost had to agree.
>>65612258>get multiple people killedWho got killed that otherwise wouldn't have?
>>65612263They should use the American 180 on him>like a swarm of angry bees
>>65612277most of the shooting happened after the retarded plebbit nigger shot his tard gun at the chud, thus leading to several innocent people getting killed
>>65612287Are you seriously implying that the shooter only shot people because he was shot at by 57guy?You must be European, because you reason like a woman
>>65612287I was hoping you weren't a retard but alas
>>65612294id become a chud if some retard shot at me with a meme gun desu
>>65611550The thread is claiming that 5.7 "replaced 9mm. It's fair to point out how 147gr 9mm mogs subsonic 5.7 without even trying.
Do people actually watch these videos and think>I have to get myself one of those, that's clearly the way?Because shit like this is the least compelling thing on the internet imo
>>65612366Wait 'til you find out about 230gr .45.
>>65612436>Wait 'til you find out about 230gr .45.I've been fanboying over that since I first got into guns, but that one isn't relevant to this discussion, as both 5.7 fags and 9mm dorks will whine about "muh capacity."
>>65611669"shot placement is everything" Yes. Which is why 9mm is king. It's easy to shoot fast, penetrates to the required depth range *AFTER* penetrating various barrier types, and reliably expands while retaining the majority of it's pre-fired weight. 5.7 literally cannot do all of those things in concert, which is why it will remain a meme round that is shot into clear ballistics gel to impress retards.
>>65612436>>65612470As a USP 45 enjoyer, most 230gr JHP loadings expand a ton, but lack in penetration compared to the same bullet design made by the same manufacturers but in 9mm. It still reaches the required depth ranges, which is why I even carry the thing, but lets not pretend its doing anything markedly different than 9mm or .40.
>>65612436>>65612570185gr .45 is the way
>>65612032>making it heavier and hotter to mimic what .45 already does>45 still underpenetrates in most defensive loadings compared to 9mm, and even specialized units that have access to whatever they want keep picking 9mm over .45Why are so many anons contrarian fags? I'd have no issue with you saying you carry a .45 because you like it, but you can't simply do that, and have to engage in incredible levels of intellectual dishonesty by ignoring decades of wound ballistics studies and reports from actual doctors to make your choice sound better. I genuinely hate people like you, and I'm willing to bet your shooting skills are fucking awful.
>>65612571Except 185gr loadings are just as inconsistent than 230gr but objectively worse in that they either wildly overpenetrate, or, if they stay within the 12-18" range, have similar expansion to 9mm JHP loadings. 230gr is the way to go if you want to shoot the perp with the pinoypounderACP.
>>65612570>lets not pretend its doing anything markedly different than 9mm or .40.Well, .40 S&W was made to mimic .45, but they both are definitely better than 9mm in terminal ballistics, even if the 9mm fanboys feel the difference is marginal.>>65612571>185gr .45 is the wayHonestly, if I wanted a fast light round, I'd shoot 147gr 9mm. The whole point of .40 S&W, 10mm, .45ACP, and .45 Super is the ability to go heavier.
>>65612594>Well, .40 S&W was made to mimic .45No it wasn't. I swear you people just make shit up to try and impress people who don't do their own research. >but they both are definitely better than 9mm in terminal ballisticsWhich is why every wound ballistics study for the last 40 years disagrees with you, and why no one professionally chooses to use .45 anymore. Because the terminal ballistics are "definitely better" rather than "mildly better but not in a way that actually effects lethality". Right. God forbid you just say you like .45 and be done with it. No, you have to justify your choice by spewing retarded bullshit. >Honestly, if I wanted a fast light round, I'd shoot 147gr 9mmCalling a subsonic round "fast" is an interesting choice anon.
>>65612612>No it wasn't. I swear you people just make shit up to try and impress people who don't do their own research.Anon, after the 1986 FBI Miami shootout the FBI specifically made an anemic 10mm load that would mimic .45 ACP (that weak as shit load is still being made by Federal btw), that load directly inspired the .40 S&W.>Which is why every wound ballistics study for the last 40 years disagrees with youThe ones I've read are what lead me to the conclusions I've made. Twice you've claimed that .45 ACP underpenetrates through flesh compared to 9mm, and twice you've failed to provide a study that proves it. I've seen specific brands fail, for example, 165gr Hydra Shok underpenetrates while 185gr Hydra Shock works great, but that's true of both cartridges. For example that 9mm Liberty ammunition that promises 1,800 fps and 500 ft/p of energy always underpenetrate.>and why no one professionally chooses to use .45 anymore.Not true; SF units all around the world still use .45 ACP SMGs. When the war on Ukraine started, there was a whole thing about their Kraken unit specifically choosing their sub-guns in .45 ACP.>God forbid you just say you like .45 and be done with it.I did. See >65612470. However, with you joining, there are now 4 people here talking about .45 ACP, I was gladly having a discussion with the other 2 when you decided to start whining.
>>65612636>there was a whole thing about their Kraken unit specifically choosing their sub-guns in .45 ACP.Heavy bullet is better for suppression and subsonic munitions. If you can't have velocity you ought to at least have weight. That's the only reason.
>>65613193The ordinary military specifically went for a 9mm SMG.
>>65612636>FBI specifically made an anemic 10mm load that would mimic .45 ACPNo, they selected 10mm since it was considered a good middle ground between .45 and 9mm since it made the part of the FBI obsessed with big boolit happy enough while keeping magazine capacity higher than .45s. Had they properly considered the wound ballistics data they'd just gone through, they would have never selected it, and would have continued to issue 9mm and 45.>.45 ACP underpenetrates through flesh compared to 9mmYes. It still reaches the minimum penetration ranges, but in post barrier penetration, falls into the lower end of the 12-18" penetration depth range. For a great example of this, see the Lucky Gunner tests. At the end of the day, .45 works, same as .40 works, and 10mm works, and 9mm works. All centerfire pistol calibers do is tear a hole, ideally to a specified depth range, and expand to limit overpenetration and maximize the size of the wound channel. None of them perform markedly better than the others in any way that actually effects lethality, so 9mm is typically considered the "best" due to capacity, lower felt recoil, and cost. Since good, center mass hits are all that really matter with pistol calibers, a caliber that gives you the most chances to make said hits while being easier to shoot faster and cheaper to train with is a pretty clear winner. >SF units all around the world still use .45 ACP SMGCiting a single unit in Ukraine doesn't validate your opinion anon. Anyways, I enjoy shooting .45. I carry my USP 45 pretty regularly, but that is more due to my love of the gun than the caliber, and the ability to shoot .45 super 255gr hardcast so I can use it as a bear gun when I go hiking.
>>65611512Palmetto state rock 5.7.
>>65613193>"fuddy fie is nachurrally subsonic so therefore..."there's that retarded shit again
>>65613411what's retarded about it?
>>65613411Winchester 230gr rounds are both subsonic and heavy.
>>65613251>No, they selected 10mm since it was considered a good middle ground between .45 and 9mmAnon, it isn't. The FBI wanted .45 ACP performance but couldn't justify to Congress, who had just spent millions switching the militiary from.45ACP to 9mm. For a guy who claims he read ballistic studies you sure do make a lot of false claims. Real 10mm has the performance of .45 Super, it's not the "middle ground" between 9mm and.45. LOL>Had they properly considered the wound ballistics data they'd just gone through, they would have never selected it, and would have continued to issue 9mm and 45.They tried to go with .45, they couldn't get it approved. The data they had in the 80s supported that 9mm wasn't enough; even the FBI dude who convinced the agency to return to 9mm admits that there needed to be advancements in the cartridge to get it to be acceptable by their standards. >>65613251>Citing a single unit in Ukraine doesn't validate your opinion anon.They're not the only one, that was simply the most recent example. Hell, our military, the US military still uses some .45 ACP subguns.
>>65613545>Real 10mm has the performance of .45 Super, it's not the "middle ground" between 9mm and.45. LOLI never said it had the same performance, rather that it was considered a good middle ground in regard to being a "big bore" caliber, while having superior capacity to 9mm. I've yet to see a primary source stating the 10mm FBI loading was developed to imitate .45 ACP, so I'm gonna chalk that up to fuddlore chief. >They tried to go with .45, they couldn't get it approvedCite your source man, because there's a video with a literal FBI ballistician that's less than a year old that doesn't back up your claims at all, but does for mine. >Hell, our military, the US military still uses some .45 ACP subguns.No, it doesn't. Why lie?
Why don't fuddy five users just carry magnum rounds? If its a zero sum game of terminal ballistics, you could be ending fights even with shit accuracy just by hitting center of mass with a 357 or >50ae
>still winning
>>65613411Most of the time it is
>>65611669where is that article from? I want to read it.
>>65613426Because "naturally" subsonic makes no sense. 147 gr 9mm is subsonic, is that NATURAL enough for you? It's not by any means an exotic loading for 9mm, just buy the right fucking load if you want something subsonic.
>>65613994>ignoring the weight part
>>65613994>Because "naturally" subsonic makes no sense.NTA. Some cartridges are subsonic with their standard loading, others need to be downloaded to become subsonic. This isn't a hard concept to understand.>147 gr 9mm is subsonic, is that NATURAL enough for you?It is naturally subsonic, but during a shortage when there's less ammo on shelves, someone who really wants 147-gr 9mm might struggle to find it and be forced to use 135-grain, 124-grain, or, God forbid, 115-grain ammo. .40 and .45 fans won't struggle at all to find a subsonic load because most of them are; you'd have to go out of your way to find a supersonic load for .45 ACP. For people who care about this, even a suppressed .380 firearm makes more sense than a suppressed 9mm firearm.
>>65614015Please explain to the thread what specific wounding mechanism is meaningfully impacted by kinetic energy, and why Dr. Fackler was wrong, but you are right.
>>65613934>winning is when even the company that created the cartridge no longer makes guns chambered for itfascinating
>>65614073>is meaningfully impacted by kinetic energyBrother in Christ, a bullet's kinetic energy is the bullet moving in your frame of reference. If it's not moving, it has no kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is intrinsically tied to the fact of the bullet being fired in the first place. There is nothing about a bullet's wounding mechanism that can be detached from its kinetic energy. It is the primary enabler of the wounding mechanism in the first place and to transfer energy into tissue, the bullet has to have that energy in it to begin with.
>>65614105Great. So how is that kinetic energy "transfer" expressed in regard to penetration and expansion? Energy transfer is a debunked theory of wound ballistics. If the difference in KE between 9mm, .40, and .45 mattered for JHP loadings, it would show some real repeatable effect. It doesn't.
>>65613934>always posts a stock image because he doesn't actually carry or own 357sig
>>65612032>>65612574I wish 45 super were more popular and there were guns purpose built for it
>>65614136Don't tempt me, Frodo.>>65614147Giga-based.
>>65614127>So how is that kinetic energy "transfer" expressed in regard to penetration and expansion?The fact that any penetration or expansion happens in the first place. A bullet sitting on your table will not penetrate your body and expand inside of it while it's sitting on your table. To deny what I am saying is akin to saying the bullet could do that.>Energy transfer is a debunked theory of wound ballistics.The laws of physics were debunked? That's neat. The act of the bullet penetrating the body is a transfer of its kinetic energy into the flesh at a rate greater than its capability of holding itself together; the work performed by the bullet, the force imparted on your flesh over the bullet's path.It seems like you're confused over "energy transfer theory" implying that kinetic energy itself is useless, rather than understanding that it simply admits the obvious that the specific amount of energy transferred by a small handgun cartridge is somewhat irrelevant when comparing similar rounds, since the amount is generally greater than what is needed for penetration and expansion regardless, but lesser than what is required for significant fragmentation effects, unless using trash rounds like RIP. The amount of energy transfer needed for flesh to break is quite small.>If the difference in KE between 9mm, .40, and .45 mattered for JHP loadings, it would show some real repeatable effect. It doesn't.Because small handgun cartridges do not have enough kinetic energy in them to both reliably fragment and penetrate to any depth at the levels of kinetic energy they have regardless. The only relevant variance will be in whether they penetrate or not.Large handgun caliber rounds and rifle rounds in return can have terminal ballistics highly dependent on the kinetic energy of the same round itself. E.g. the M855's issues with icepicking are caused by excess stability of the bullet thanks to lesser kinetic energy, low velocity, short barrel.
>>65614157You cited KE as a reason that .45 was better for subsonic use, when it doesn't make a difference.
>>65612263Typically the way it works is that if the team of 10 people with rifles somehow doesn't kill a person by shooting their chest, an officer will finish the execution with a handgun shot to the cranium. That's the only way 5.7m could be involved.
>>65614052>Fair points. 147 gr 9mm is definitely more expensive and less common than 124 gr.
>>65614052>This isn't a hard concept to understand. the point is that 'naturally subsonic' is a red flag statement, like 'AKs are reliable'. its a thing you've heard but not experienced and you say it to virtue signal your knowledge of guns.
>>65614716>ignoring the weight part againLooped right back to the beginning.
>>65615687>posts projectiles made by 2 different manufacturers as if that proves something>Continues to act like the .45 projectiles that passed the 12" minimum penetration standard would be more lethal than the 9mm projectiles that passed that thresholdLets see how Federal 147gr projectiles perform vs Federal 230gr projectiles. Not Winchester V Federal.
>>65615865Another manufacturer isn't going to change the fact that the 230gr .45 is significantly heavier and bigger; that the extra momentum allows the subsonic .45 to penetrate better even if it's a larger bullet that expands even further compared to the subsonic 9mm.It's just the simple fact that if you're choosing between a subsonic 9mm or a subsonic .45, then the .45 will have better performance through barriers. Same excuse why 9x39mm is heavy. The speed of sound is a strict limit for velocity, so you balance weight with size.
>>65616108Right. That must be why 147gr HST penetrates further in regard to post-barrier penetration. Manufacturer to manufacturer changes bullet construction, which changes projectile behavior. Not that I'd expect a disingenuous faggot like you to acknowledge that.
>>65616348Bigger number
>>65611524Anon gel blocks are calibrated by shooting them with BB guns and measuring 3.4 to 3.7 inches. BB guns do not typically get through half of a 6 inch normal human body.
>>65612562>while retaining the majority of it's pre-fired weightWhy would I care about that unless I'm hunting for meat?
>>65613411It's not about >muh naturally subsonic it's about >if there's a speed limit the only way to increase power while staying below the limit is to increase bullet weight.
>>65616348nta but you're accusing him of being disingenuous while you're showing the performance of 9mm+P which is almost certainly not subsonicI think you meant to post this graphic
>>65616360Ah yes, wild overpenetration, and with less expansion than the 9mm loading. Wonderful demonstration. >>65616898147gr +P HST is still subsonic. Kinda neat like that. >>65616540Because it means that projectile design is more likely to reach a specific penetration depth while expanding reliably. Pistol caliber rounds that fragment tend to produce poor wounding effects as they're not reaching anywhere near the velocity for the fragments to cause good wounding characteristics. >>65616543>anon posts about nebulous concepts of power while ignoring reliable data as to penetration and expansion performance that is readily available
>>65611550>bubbaing a round to be the exact opposite of what it was designed to do was ineffectiveVery insightful anon
>>65613934Who?
>>65617028Yo momma
>>65614155Something about the top one makes it the first Glock I kind of actually like aesthetically. There's an interesting "future brutalism" vibe there.
>>65616360What I always wonder is "how much flesh matter is being carried out by the round". Exit holes tend to be more interesting than entry holes.
but I never switched to 9mm to begin withbeen using it for 2 decades
>>6561325110mm predates the FBI developments after 1986 you dipshit. Look up Jeff Cooper for once.
>>65611493All of these caliber war arguments just reinforce how correct I was to start carrying a .44 Magnum. And before some soft-handed sissy whines to me, yes, I am practiced and proficient with it, even with full-power loads.
>>65611502>>65611517https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/is-5-7x28mm-just-overpriced-22-magnum-part-1/>The late and highly respected Pat Rogers trained a number of personnel on issued P90s. He did not speak favorably of the cartridge. Multiple rounds were always needed to incapacitate, so they had to train to use full auto pretty much all the time. That required more training time and ammo than normal, which was a challenge because the ammo costs a lot more than other options.>A veteran SWAT officer at one department that issued the P90 had similar things to say, concluding with, “We have been using 30 P90s for five years now. There have been multiple bad guys shot with them. We will not be buying more 5.7mm systems”>An officer at a different department relayed a story where a suspect was shot 10-12 times with a P90 before telling the officers to “stop shooting me.” He surrendered, and ultimately survived that encounter.
