Didn't see a thread about this, so I figured that I'd make one. Spaghetti bros have won once again and are basically the only trainer platform for western militaries. The Textron and Leonardo competitor is now the sole remaining competitor after Sierra Nevada Corporation walked away from the navy jet trainer competition a few days ago. SNC gave a quote saying: “With great respect for the Navy and PMA-273, SNC could not responsibly bid the UJTS [Undergraduate Jet Training System] program under the current contract structure,”. Not sure what that all means, but I assume that SNC was heavily relying on Northrop Grumman to help them build the aircraft if they were to win the contract. However, NG dropped out of the competition back in September leaving SNC by itself which most likely led to this decision
>>65632235Textron released a rendition of what a US Navy M346 would look like. Also, the Navy is expected to award the contract in September but who knows now that only the M346 is the only competitor remaining
>>65632235qrd on the m346 please
>>65632317It's the ar-15 of trainer jets>>65632254It would look so cute as a single seater
>>65632235Weird how a paper design stuck it out longer than Boeing and Shlockmart.
> SNC could not responsibly bid the UJTS program under the current contract structureIt means that SNC couldn't fuck over the DoD or at least reach a minimal threshold of 'fucking over' the DoD.
>>65632321How many are there, how many does the navy need and do we already use things like engine ect
>>65632317>Can be built as a Light fighter, but only the Trainer variant is being ordered>Used by 8 nations already>An additional 4 or more nations are still waiting on their orders to be fulfilled>Used by 2 distinct NATO training centers>Over 100 built out of 165 on order>Airframe is on Block 20While I wouldn't proclaim it as the "AR-15" of trainer jets like the other anon said, I'd say its pretty close to that though. The Korean T/FA-50 is probably the M16 of Jet Trainers/Light Fighters but only because people are actively buying the FA variants in droves.>>65632353>How many are there>how many does the navy needSee above for how many are currently on order and how many are already built. The US Navy has an inventory of 189 jet trainers so expect an additional 200 of these things in the next decade or so. >What engine does it useThe M346 is a twin engine airframe that uses the Honeywell F124-GA-200>What else uses itX-45 used it, Czech L-159, Taiwanese T-5 all use one variation or another of it
>>65632366>Used by 8 nations alreadyIt's used by way more than that if you count the yak 130 and other regional variants like the hurjet
>>65632381>the yak 130Sure, but the two airframes aren't parts-compatible with one another so they're basically two seperate airframes at this point in time. Ordering a new build M346 and expecting an aged yak-130 to act as a spare parts airframe is simply not possible>TAI Hurjet is a 346 variantWhat crack are you smoking?
>>65632254 why does the canopy have anime shading
>>65632381Tai Hurjet has nothing to do with Yak 130
What if the russians left a backdoor in the project?
>M-346N>$25 million per unitCan't they buy a fucking A-10 with the same money?
>>65632502You could but you can't use the A10 as a trainer
>>65632496No. The Italy/Russia split happened in 2000, long before the plane was finalized. The avionics and softwares on the m346 are 100% Italian/Nato in origin.
Speaking of trainers, whatever happened to the bongistani trainer program? Seems like it collapsed into an utter fuckfest.
>>65632542Do you mean the British designed jet or the replacement program? The jet itself is basically dead after the Qataris pulled funding and the replacement program UK is still going strong. Right now its between the T-50, T-7A, M-346, and the Hurjet. In all honesty its between the T-7 and M346 since both have large manufacturing presence within the UK, which is what the Brits mostly want out of the program
always liked the Alenia Aermacchi 346 since its intro two decades agoSolid design; a relatively modern jet I'd like to own in my personal hangar as a 'warbird'
Also interestingly, Israel operates more M-346s than any nation even Italy; the purchase of 30 was a backscratcher with Italy getting E-550A AEW planes and IAI reconnaissance satellites in return.
>>65632235>horizontal stabilizerletPass.
>>65632254Always liked these light fighters as the low of a hi/low mix.
>>65632235>>65632254The USAF should probably buy these given the status of the T-7.
>>65632351When Northrop pulled out leaving SNC (whom they partnered with) by themselves they lost the ability to build their aircraft.
>>65632235I would imagine they completely redo the RFP. When basically every competitor drops out before you get to competition it tends to mean there is something deeply flawed with the program requirements
>>65632235Whatever happened to the Hardpoint Dynamics Dark Horse??
>>65633323Why redo it? The competition basically self-selected themselves out. The most feasible one was left. Navy likely pushed for a twinjet because they probably want a navalized F-47 at some point in the next decade, and M-346 is one of the very few modern twinjet trainers available (the vast majority are single-engine).
>>65633399These sorts of situations always end up inviting a ton of bureaucratic scrutiny, especially in regards to whether the requirements and process were fair, and also complicate things like pricing as you have no other bid to compare it to. This can also mean there’s less external pressure on the company to perform, because what are they going to do, go to somebody else? It’s very likely this is another of the Navy’s myriad mismanaged procurement programs and will soon come to be thought of as an absolute clusterfuck.
They can still cancel the competition. T-38 is good for another 50 years.
>>65633405But natural monopolies aren't illegal. If you make 'thing', and literally nobody else makes 'thing', it's not illegal for you to be the automatic choice for anybody who wants 'thing'.
>>65633423It isn’t a natural monopoly, plenty of other companies make ‘thing’. If it were a natural monopoly we’d have heard about the Navy issuing a sole source contract and that would’ve been the end of it. But that’s not what happened here. What happened here is the branch that is the worst about making an absolute mess of procurement programs issued an RFP, got four responses, and had three of them decide the smart move was to run for the hills before anything resembling a competition happened. This is not something that bodes well for how they are running the program.
>>65633405>Boeing dropped out because they can't commit enough resources to doing the USAF Trainer AND both 6th gen airframes>LM dropped out because they're simply maxxed out at capacity and are struggling with already placed military orders>SNC was relying on NG to help build their jet, but NG pulled out to focus on the B21, military satellites, and other aerospace contracts>This leaves Textron and Leonardo as the only natural competitor capable of building the new trainers>Said Textron/Leo trainer is going to be built by a Textron subsidary company that has already worked with the Navy in the pastEveryone that dropped out did so willingly due to prior engagements that are leaving them too busy to devote enough manpower and manufacturing space to reliable pump out the jet trainers. No one is going to contest what is clearly a clean and uncontestable win by default>It’s very likely this is another of the Navy’s myriad mismanaged procurement programsNo? This has allegedly been one of the cleanest military airframe procurement competition in decades
>>65633323>When basically every competitor drops out before you get to competition it tends to mean there is something deeply flawed with the program requirementsThere were 2 bidder groups, Textron+Leonardo and Northrop+SNC. Northrop dropped out cause it isn't worth their time and SNC couldn't pick up the slack.
>>65633405I understand why these programs developed in the government but holy shit have they gotten ridiculous to the point of ensuring taxpayers pay the absolute most for anything>No you can't buy *thing* from A for $100, they're not an approved vendor>You must buy *thing* from approved vendor B for $500>"Procurement" programs specifically designed to ensure a preferred vendor wins the contractLast one particularly pisses me off, Washington DOC was getting a new duty weapon and the entire process was managed by a literal handful of fat boomers with absolutely zero input from anyone who would actually carry the weapon, and after $2 million dollars of "testing and evaluation" the choices came down to Zev or a fucking Walther (which the data totally supports trust me no you can't see it), all for the production Zevs to suffer catastrophic failures. All in the taxpayer footed a $3 million bill just for the agency to buy M&P 2.0s like they were offered 5 years ago.
>>65633433>plenty of other companies make ‘thing’. They don't make a twinjet trainer. Since, at least according to "tales from my ass" rumors, this was where the Navy's preference seemed to point, Aermacchi/Leonardo have the only such airframe already proven in service. Everything else was napkin sketches.
>>65633434>one of the cleanestIt’s already late because they’ve dragged ass getting the program moving anywhere and they had to increase the maximum size of the contract by 50% fairly recently because they were once again lowballing everyone while also demanding a rush job. They were originally targeting 2028 IOC but aren’t even planning a contract award until next year. >>65633436There were originally four, both Boeing and Lockheed already dropped out earlier in the year
>>65633457>It’s already late because they’ve dragged ass getting the program moving anywhereMore on the fault of the Navy and its budget constraints, not necessary because the program was faulty at the onset>had to increase the maximum size of the contract by 50%See above. Blame the Pentagon and its pencil pushers>while also demanding a rush job.Except for the NG/SNC clean sheet design, all other competitors had come from pre-established trainers that are already in active production and used by multiple nations around the world. As far as the M346N is concerned there hasn't been any mechanical/airframe alterations outside of the necessary changes needed to make it "navalised" and from what I can find only the software is being swapped out to better fit the US Navy's needs. Realistically, Textron and Leonardo just need to get the contract and they can start pumping these out in Kansas in a matter of months
>>65632351>>65633323>>65632235Wanna bet Leonardo pulls out as well? When the prior 3/4 competitors pull out without saying why it means the customer is at faul.REMEMBER KELLY JOHNSON 15TH RULE
>>65632743I still don't understand why they don't sell these trainer jets for civilians. just remove the military components and the second seat and you could sell them for half the price. People buy private jets all the time.
>>65632415the front half looks like a T-7, while the rear is a copy of the FA-50. it's weird
>>65632750On wikipedia it says italy has 42>>65633399The navy is asking for asinine levels of engine reliability plus new certifications. I doubt Leonardo is willing to do that when bigger companies have already noped out. 2-3 months and we'll have the same news story but for them and the RFP will have to be redone.
Any reason why they need "trainers" instead of just using some old mothballed F-18?
>>65633684Also, is the aircraft navy "ready"?It is going to be fully rusted in less than 3 years, unless the aircraft is prepared to be used on sea.
>>65633684trainers are needed because they allow you to put pilots into jets that behave like frontline fighters but are easier to handle and cost way less to operate. And this is for phase 1 to 3, phase 4 LIFT which is where these trainers like the m-346 shine are about having the pilot learn to multitask, while flying even if the actual flying part becomes secondary. Too many countries sadly want to push people straight into the fourth phase so you'll have trainees who conk out because they are still struggling to maintain a formation flight while also having to deal with SA saturation.
>>65633691>unless the aircraft is prepared to be used on sea.that just depends on the proper coating and maintenance. But it's beside the point as it's not going out to sea as the navy is scrapping the carrier qualification.
>>65632235>M-346 threadfuck yeah I love trainers and especially the 346.
I had forgotten Canada, which one of its school is buying it and the RCAF is also considering an order.
why is the engine nozzle so ugly.does it even have after burners?
>>65632235>The US, Russia and China are all using variants of the the same advanced trainerWhat a wacky timeline
>>65633751>future yak operators >(none) Kek. It's funny that Russia now can't even export a fucking trainer.
>>65633792The 4 planes in your pic are not variants, they are planes which don't even have a single screw in common with each other at this point. A shared design phylosophy would be the better term (and the T7 has notning to do with the others). A variant would be like the F-16 and F-16D.
Lockheed and Boeing are out due to 'per Boeing, is the engine. The T-7A flies behind a single General Electric F404 — a proven turbofan with millions of flight hours across the F/A-18, the F-117, and a string of trainers. But meeting the Navy’s specific engine-qualification requirements for UJTS, Boeing says, would demand “long-cycle” development that could blow past the service’s schedule for reaching initial operational capability."https://migflug.com/afterburner/boeing-wont-bid-navy-ujts-t45-replacement/
>>65634000That's a sexy ass paint job
>>65632415>build trainer jet>make it look like it has an extra chromosone>call it the hurr jetGood job Kojima.
>>65633673>"has">wikipedia says 22 in service20 on orderIsrael has 30 in operational service.
>>65633673>>65634001(you)Which is strange considering they already use the GE404 and do not plan on having this trainer on the water in any capacity.If USN wanted a twin engine trainer so bad they should have just kept the F/A-18E/F line open longerGranted the F-18 is roughly $63 million vs M-346 $25 million absolutely get a lot more and save with commonality
>>65634563You can't use a frontline fighter as a lift trainer
>>65634606why not?
>>65632235M-346 Sex
>>65634609It goes against the role of a trainer. You need to ease the pilot into what he'll have to do, going from a prop trainer to a mach fuck twin engine full of MFDs will overload him, is expensive as fuck and dangerous.
>>65632317>>65632321it's the multicam of jets>Originally co-developed with Yakovlev as the Yak/AEM-130, the partnership was dissolved in 2000 and then Alenia Aermacchi proceeded to separately develop the M-346 Master, while Yakovlev continued work on the Yakovlev Yak-130.BRATAIN WHY YOU FIGHT ME?
>>65634089yes I want the 1:48 scale model to build it in that schemealso liked the 2000s three color >>65633738 prototypes
Think there will be M-346 in Blue Angles colors if it gets accepted? They will phase out the Super Hornets eventually.
>>65633691How about you spend 5 minutes researching what the program is actually asking for and what the m346N is offering
>>65634740Will most likely use the F35 or F/A-XX
>>65634634It's the real life equivalent of when a game dev gives up and gives all factions the same vehicle for a role.>>65634740The Blue Angels have always used the fleet's most clapped out examples of a current frontline airframe, haven't they? I don't see why they'd change to trainers now.
>>65633666>REMEMBER KELLY JOHNSONIt was my very first thought reading OP. Scrolling through the comments and reading schizo drivel like >>65632351 reinforces that adversary propaganda is well on the way to rendering the free world ungovernable within a single generation.
>>65634609It costs too many trainees and airframes to do it that way.
>>65634609It worked great for Sotoa.
>>65633444Why are twinjet trainers a natural monopoly? Do you know what natural monopoly means? What actually happened here is that Navy issued an RFP, got multiple compliant responses and it slowly became clear afterwards that the written RFP was bullshit and the USN was going to pick based on arbitrary hitherto unwritten criteria, probably not play by the rules and probably pay peanuts.
>Originally co-developed with Yakovlev as the Yak/AEM-130Interesting
>>65634899>>65634629Some pussy ass shit niggaGot any real reasons?
>>65635028Cost of flight hours on an F/A-18 is probably like 10 times more expensive than that of a trainer. That means for the same price, your pilot can get 10 times the training, which makes them better. Or you can train 10 times the pilots.
>>65632235Is this the thing Defyn was flying today?
>>65635028>>65635074You also want to train in a plane that doesn't have any specific odd quirks pilots need to adapt to or comforts that could obscure someone's actual ability. You want to make sure you've got a jet pilot and fighter pilot before you try to make them a Hornet or JSF driver. You don't know what the Navy might need them flying next, when they might be rotated through another branch or allied country on exchange, when they might outright transfer, all that.The consolidation on a small selection of multiroles has made the flexibility slightly less important but it's still important.
>>65634709Kinetic Gold has both version, but the one with the 3 colors is harder to find now. The one with the 3 colors IIRC has a modeling error on the wing root. I don't know if it was fixed in the new one.>>65634864The A-4 was used by the BA and it was cool. From an aerobatic standpoint I think trainers are better suited for display teams.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT5EHUs3CG0They had a M-346 flying in Pensacola a while back to promote it to the Navy.
>https://www.twz.com/sea/we-now-know-why-sierra-nevada-corp-canned-its-navy-jet-trainer-bidSNC dropped out because the USN wants an hard FPC. Can't really blame them.
>>65635399I mean, it would track. It's literally impossible to adhere to an FPC with a paper design. Whereas Leonardo have built over 100 of the things, they know how much one costs, and what amount they should ask for, to keep margins.
>>65635421I don't think it's going to be so simple for Leonardo as well. The Navy has been a constant back and forth, a fixed price point for the current request is feasible, but if they change their mind and ask for CATOBAR capabilities down the line Leonardo is fucked. They stated they can modify the 346 for that, but within a FPC it's madness.
>>65635421Also, IIRC the navy wants every single trainer at a fixed price of 16M per unit max. Which is already unrealistic for any of the current and previous candidates.
>>65635435I'm reasonably certain Leonardo are sufficiently unretarded to demand a structural modification clause to the FPC. >>65635437That depends on what exactly is included for delivery in that sum, and whether some equipment might be part of a separate contract (which wouldn't be unheard of). Ex. they deliver the hull, engines and basic control avionics on the contract, while the actual training avionics (the bits which make the cockpit look like an F-35 one) are billed separately. There's a lot of potential Hollywood accounting one can perform.
>>65635446The ones with the best lawyers win in this case. But I fear Kelly will always be right. Look at the whole FREMM shitfest.
>>65635494 >But I fear Kelly will always be right.Which is amusing, given that the Navy got a Shlocksneed design rammed down their throats despite their misgivings (single engine).
SNC were dumb to try to make a clean sheet design when they already have a development partner with at least a jet in the air with the Turkish TAI Hürjet advanced trainer and just submitted a version of that.
>>65635541it seems clear the navy wanted a twin engine from how they requested the GE404 to be recertified, which you can't really blame them for as you cannot beat the reliability of 2 engines over 1. And with the FPC the Hürjet is in the same position as SNC as they have no idea if the price could balloon, it would be too much of a risk. On top of Turkey barely being an ally of NATO which could be one of the reasons why the school that trains Hürjet pilots chose the M-346 a few weeks ago as their next trainer.
>>65635523Nta, what are you referring to?
>>65635551> the school that trains Hürjet pilots chose the M-346 a few weeks ago as their next trainer.TAI test pilots were mostly graduated from test pilots School in Canada (they are ex TurAF pilots with F-16 and F-4 background)And I just checked; that test pilot school don't have M-346 in their arsenal. Instead, they have L-39s and Hawker Hunters
>>65635923They recently signed a deal to purchase M-346 as their next trainer.
>>65632321it does look nice!!!! ^^picrel is To-199 Neophron from Arma 3, which is based on Yak-130, which is what M346 is based onI like my Neophron, it kills blackwasps! :DDDD
>>65632235Trainers are so cute
>>65636082https://itpscanada.com/courses/flight-test-training/If you mean that test pilot school, they won't have M-346 by 2030.
>>65636104>which is what M346 is based onNot really correct, both the yak and m346 are derivates of the same jointly designed prototype which had its first flight in 1996. both the m-346 and yak-130 had their first flight in 2004.
>>65636131Now i learn something new, ITPS Canada has a test pilot school in Ankara since 2023. They are providing advanced military flight test pilot courses. Likely with Turkish planes.Training test pilots must be hardcore stuff.
>>65636131>they won't have M-346 by 2030.Most likely, but my point was that they purchased them. Leonardo is finalizing and about to deliver the first M-346FAs to Nigeria, then they will start production for the joint Austria-Italy order then it's their turn. One way they could get them sooner would be if the USN awards Leonardo the bid and they decide to leave the assembly for all NA orders to Textron in the US. I don't know how feasible that is when you have orders for different countries but I think it would speed up the deliveries. Meanwhile IIRC for the Hurjet I think their next most realistic chance at winning a bid is with Malasya.
>>65636164>Training test pilots must be hardcore stuff.Full blown test pilot is no joke. they need to be able to fly any plane in any situation. This requires a shitload of money which is why most go to the one in the US
>>65635336>[original kit issue] has a modeling error on the wing rootthanks for heads up
>>65634896Why is it schizo babble? SNC themselves said they can't take a fixed price contract because they aren't at a design stage where they know what the plane costs. Clearly they would've liked a cost-plus contract so they can lowball an unfinished plane and add the costs on later.
>>65636426no prob. Also, if you're building it Wolf3D has some very nice resin upgrades, plus consider getting the 3d cockpit decals from Quinta Studio
>>65633792This would have been true but Russia had to chimp out.
>>65632235Does it mean it's the one they'll choose? If so based choice, it's clearly the best trainer on the market.
>>65637375with 3d and resin, we're in the golden age of plastic model detailing
>>65637375>doesn't ship to the USThanks Obama.
>>65632235It looks like a corydora fish, cute
>>65632235Needs a bigger rudder.
>>65632235it is 1926 the wops are making premier light planes from plywood which are widely adopted as a stopgap by larger statesit is 2026 the wops are making premier light planes from plastic which are widely adopted as a stop gap by larger states
>>65635541>turk jetew
>>65640368The italians have always been pioneer of aviation and every airliner manufacturer still honors them by putting working replicas of the Stipa-Caproni under their wings.
>>65640526kek
>>65640526I don't get it
>>65642321Google it you lazy retard
