I don't believe that wanting to be a woman counts as gender dysphoria
i agree, depending on what it is you mean
>>43767186what's the barrier then?
ok well it does, so cope about it
>>43767227Actually being a woman in a man's body. Hating being a man and wanting to be a woman is something even a cissoid can do
>>43767227>>43767255not op obv but the way i see it is that the simple desire to exist as a woman does not inhere psychic pain or trauma or whatever, the way gender dysphoria does. self-professed non-dysphoric transmaxxers are a good example of this, when they really are non-dysphoric. they experience no distress about their primary or secondary sex characteristics, but they want to exist as women.
>>43767277>self-professed non-dysphoric transmaxxers are a good example of this, when they really are non-dysphoricwanting to be the opposite sex is one of the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoriaI don't particularly believe in "non-dysphoric transmaxxers"
>>43767186that's why gender dysphoria shouldnt be what defines a trans person,ratter the transition proccess. (takes hrt, surgeries etc = trans. doesnt transition and just crossdress = not trans)
>>43767288just because psychologists wrote something in a book doesn't mean it's law desu. many psychological diagnoses are arbitrary, which is why you only need some amount of traits, but not necessarily all, for diagnosis.i believe in non-dysphoric transitioners in general. most of them probably detransition, but there's no rule that says it's impossible to be happy living as a woman if you were happy living as a man, or vice versa.
>>43767323>just because psychologists wrote something in a book doesn't mean it's lawI don't see why it should be excluded from the criteria thoughyes it's arbitrary, but being trans is kinda just when you really want to be / feel like the opposite sex. That's what the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria checks for.what else would make you trans?
>>43767335Everyone can be trans now and someone questioning the motives makes them transphobe. Unless you're a gorillahon in which case get ready for socially acceptable grilling.
>>43767335this >>43767312 desu.i kind of had a hard time for a while accepting the idea that such a thing as "non-dysphoric transgenders" could even exist, but it's basically the above logic that reconciled the ideas for me. if you transition and work to change your gender, you are definitionally transgender, right? you are likely doing this in response to gender dysphoria, but gender dysphoria is not what makes you trans. it's the transitioning. controversially i don't believe reppers are trans: they're just cis people with gender dysphoria, which is sad. in this same way i DO believe that non-dysphoric transitioners are trans, because they have transitioned.i don't think that a desire to be the opposite (or whatever) sex (or whatever) should not be included in the criteria for gender dysphoria (i think that it describes the entire phenomenon pretty fundamentally, actually), but i also do not think that it is, itself, the phenomenon. nor is it a requirement for transition, which is a physical choice anybody could make for themselves, regardless of their feelings. am i making sense? i feel like i'm probably not making sense. i'm trying to think of a different way to express this but i'm not sure what might be better.
>>43767376I mean that's a fine opinion, but the idea that trans is when you transition and not when you have dysphoria isn't the same as saying wanting to be a woman shouldn't count as dysphoria
>>43767186>it's impossible to ever be 100% confident in anything about yourself. we aren't objective factual beings. might as well try transitioning if you feel like it is right. can always stop. who cares if someone is really trans or not (which is impossible to ever know or define). just let people make decisions for themselves
>>43767262I knew I was cis!
i agree because i dont want to be a woman. im on estrogen because looking like a man makes me immediately harm myself and i thought it could fix that, not because i wanted to be a woman. the issue is with dymorphic characteristics, not really "wanting to be a girl"
>>43767381they do go hand in hand, though, i think!non-dysphoric trans people are people who are transgender, and for some reason wanted to be [whatever], and so transitioned for that purpose, but did not/do not experience psychic pain about their sex/gender (ie dysphoria).wanting to be a woman when you live as a man SHOULD count as dysphoria and it SHOULD be a big red flag, but it should not BE dysphoria. wanting to change your sex or gender or whatever because it is terribly distressing to you totally is gender dysphoria. but literally anybody could make that choice, including somebody who does not have gender dysphoria.the set of all people who want to be a woman or a man or whatever includes both dysphorics and non-dysphorics.the subset of dysphorics includes only people who do and do not act on a desire to transition (ie tranners and reppers)the subset of non-dysphorics also includes people who do and do not want to transition: tranners and regular cis people.idk if this clarifies anything at all abt my opinion sorry
>>43767376Seems like a bunch of sanewashing to avoid the stigmas that come with being associated with a dsm-5 diagnosis. I don't agree with how it's handled in some places to receive affirming care but anyone who wants to live their life and change their sexual characteristics as the opposite or other type of gender still falls under gender dysphoria. Non transition, social or medical, enby is already considered trans for anything else and that's been weaponized enough through social media and politics in an attempt to discredit gender dysphoria and transexuals. That might have not been the intent, but now it's turned more into a battle of civility rather than the legal protections rights to an improved life. I'm not saying someone has to transition to be their desired gender, but I'm also not saying they don't either. A lack of distinction is exactly what transphobes that don't want anyone to transition are looking to take advantage of. From that point when does it turn into only birth gender with anything else being illegal. It sounds like fear mongering or gatekeeping but that's exactly what some governments are heading toward and have already established in certain countries.
>>43767558i understand what you're saying, but i don't mean that transition is unnecessary for dysphorics and i don't mean that a desire to transition is not a sign of dysphoria. i only wish to opine that they are not the same thing...desu it is entirely my fault for misreading/misinterpreting the op post (looking back idek how i did this) and i do not agree that wanting to be a woman (etc) does not count as gender dysphoria. i just don't think that wanting to be a woman (...etc) is the SAME as having gender dysphoria.tbdesu...i agree with your post, but i think that governments which wish to restrict the rights of trans people are going to do this regardless of what guidelines are in place. they will tighten the vise until something breaks, and then they will continue to tighten it, and more things will break, and eventually the outcome will be the same, no matter how stringent and Legitimizing the criteria are. that being said! i don't think that the criteria should change...i think that they're fine. i am just stupid and started an irrelevant conversation.
>>43767616You can disagree as a personal belief but that's just not how dysphoria works or is classified. I understand the point you're trying to make but it's still dysphoria regardless of the reason, nobel or not. Just having the occasional sexual fantasy or wanting to be a gender non-conformists isn't considered dysphoria for a reason and those types seldom transition or feel comfortable enough to proceed. While there are some who don't feel uncomfortable as their current gender, they will still feel more comfortable as another in their day to day. And this is coming from someone who has always questioned authority and encourages inclusion. I don't think it should be a blocker or agree with every part of it and still firmly stand by the saying that if someone wants to transition, they're trans and the steps should be allowed and taken to move that forward regardless if that changes later. People with legit dysphoria and not trying to fake a diagnosis don't often have those thoughts if it all. No different from navigating transphobic cisgendered, enby, and even transgendered individuals, it's ridiculous semantics with so many different factors grasping for a confirmation bias. However I understand the need for caution even when I still don't entirely agree with that because I think everyone should have the freedom of control over their body, but also wary of how easily it's been manipulated by bad actors looking to harm and repress trans individuals. It's depressing and maddening and becoming more restricted in some of the worst ways but just like GID before it had to be changed to avoid the stigma of a disorder, it was still a step forward and that shouldn't stop. Dysphoria itself can transition.
>>43767262> Actually being a woman in a man's body.But how can I understand that I am a woman if it is merely an abstraction invented by people to describe certain physical and social aspects of an individual’s existence and experience, aspects that I so deeply desire, and whose absence in my life condemns me to a hell of depression and envy?
