hope is a poison. if you're a pessimist, why are you so upset? you should have a low expectation to begin with

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>That horrible person who did horrible things to you is actually miserable!

>>43927451
>if you're a pessimist, why are you so upset?
Because a world in which hope isn't naïve is objectively a better one. Because I am treated like trash for pointing out reality despite my efforts to fight against it, while the people who condemn my 'cynicism' do nothing to help and instead make the problems worse while constantly complaining. Because we have all this art meant to convey the human experience and it largely aims to argue that there IS a point to all the effort, yet everyone who pretends to hold these things, these ideas, as deeply important to them, do absolutely nothing to make that a reality.

Whenever someone with my mentality talks about killing themselves, the usual response is "well nothing can ever improve if you do that!" And unfortunately, they're right. A life where, magically, I find the right person or people and everything improves would be infinitely better than dying. And even if I was the smartest person in the world, I wouldn't be omnipotent, so I couldn't say with absolute certainty that can't happen. All I can do is use what's left of myself to make a point. If I'm right, I get to be as obnoxious about it as I want until I die. If I'm wrong, then I'll just magically stumble upon a good life, and I have no qualms about admitting I was wrong if people/the world wanna prove it.

>>43927598
My last ex cheated on me with a pedophile. In the ensuing mental spiral, my ex before them barged back into my life feigning wanting to comfort me and keep me stable, but instead they just raped me. Then when I tried to get over all that, the next person I tried to date led me on for months and then tried to justify their lack of commitment because I let those experiences make me negative and used my trust issues against me. But if we're being realistic, you don't actually care what the specifics are.

>>43927656
>Then when I tried to get over all that, the next person I tried to date led me on for months and then tried to justify their lack of commitment because I let those experiences make me negative and used my trust issues against me.
how did the feminist wording go
"nobody owes you a relationship"
"you need to work on yourself first"
"i'm not your therapist"
"expecting people to do emotional labor for free is toxic"
and some other victim blaming gaslight girlboss classics

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>>43927656
>Because a world in which hope isn't naïve is objectively a better one
hope is naïve. if hope were not naïve, it would be planning. wittgenstein says, "dreams do not come true precisely because they are dreams." you are not a pessimist because you are merely a thwarted optimist (a modern "cynic"). the world owes you nothing and to measure yourself by the trifles of shallow optimists is doubly stupid, and wasteful

>>43927703
hope is a very useful and wise heuristic in a world where humans are not omniscient machines with infinite thinking speed and time, but actually need to operate effectively with usually too little information and planning time to even do thorough risk analysis beyond the highest probability*impact items
but midwits like to think they know better

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>>43927656
>But if we're being realistic, you don't actually care what the specifics are.
and i didnt even mean to pretend Iike i did

>>43927687
Funny you mention that. After my ex cheated on me I went to someone who I felt was reasonable for advice. She pretend to give a shit about my mental state but was actually just funneling what I said to that ex. When I found out and got upset she chastised me for "expecting women to perform emotional labor". A few months later I was still in the spiral, but I developed a fixation on the idea that if I was a truly good person I would 'turn the other cheek' and help the people who harmed me anyway, so when she was having her own mental breakdown I spent a few hours talking her down, but part way through she outright stated she needed someone to jump into her life to keep her emotionally stable. I don't know if she ever recognized the irony.

>>43927703
You cannot plan for people to have a moral conscious, or principles they abide by. You cannot plan for people to care about you or work towards making your life better. The only way you can reasonable force those things to happen is through deceit and manipulation, but even that is not assured. You cannot plan for a good life unless your idea of a good life is devoid of other people. But heaven without people is not worth entering.

>>43927725
that isn't hope. that's confidence. the profound irony of (You) calling schopenhauer and wittgenstein midwits

>>43927767
>She pretend to give a shit about my mental state but was actually just funneling what I said to that ex. When I found out and got upset she chastised me for "expecting women to perform emotional labor"
yup classic. they're being taught that playbook and a twisted "moral" system that allows them to use it guilt-free
>A few months later I was still in the spiral, but I developed a fixation on the idea that if I was a truly good person I would 'turn the other cheek' and help the people who harmed me anyway,
understandable, but hopefully nowadays you're wiser to not give them an inch. they get what they put out. obviously don't given them any ammo they can use to paint you as the bad person, but disengage in the safest way possible for you and let them reap what they sow. ostracision is the most horrible thing for women for a good reason, and in a better world they'd taste that when they're being scum
>I don't know if she ever recognized the irony.
pretty sure she'd have a mental block against that

>>43927781
>irony of
yeah, it's ironic that so many dickride various nihilist germacucks by merely parroting some interesting thoughtscapes without doing their due diligence to see how it applies to current reality
it's also ironic that you're mistaking hope for confidence as an attempt to "own the libs"

>>43927767
>You cannot plan for people to have a moral conscious, or principles they abide by. You cannot plan for people to care about you or work towards making your life better. The only way you can reasonable force those things to happen is through deceit and manipulation, but even that is not assured. You cannot plan for a good life unless your idea of a good life is devoid of other people. But heaven without people is not worth entering
so you believe that hell is other people but you also believe that heaven without people is not worth entering. something is going to snap here, eventually

>>43927822
>nihilist
>current reality
>"own the libs"
go back to fucking leddit you insufferable child

>>43927842
seeth more, midwitcuck

>>43927865
neither schop nor witt were nihilists. i seeth thou knoweth not whereof thou speaketh

>>43927880
>implying igaf about your pseud metal subgenres

>>43927893
>"i was only pretending to be retarded!"
i accept your apology

>>43927940
im sure you do, pseudboy

>>43927802
I have been disengaged for quite awhile now but it just goes back to my point in the OP post - it doesn't matter how miserable they are, how much I rationalize them as amoral and terrible and deserving of what misery they get, if my life still blows. If they have a good life and I don't, that's a cruel injustice. If we're both miserable, I can feel a bit of contentment knowing they're miserable, but it gets me nowhere. The only thing that actually matters is if my life improves, and it hasn't.

>>43927827
Either I kill myself or I find someone that proves "hell is other people" is not a universal law. The theoretical world where I stop believing in "heaven without people is not worth entering" is one where I succumb to cope, because I have already experienced highs that toiling away in isolation on my hobbies have never come close to. It would basically require literal amnesia.

>>43927963
>if my life still blows.
yup. the upside is that they can't do as much damage to you anymore, and you have more time to improov your life
>If they have a good life and I don't, that's a cruel injustice
always is, unless you happen to luck into a society good enough to have an effective karma system for these cases, assuming you're not the crazy delusional one ofc

>>43927963
>I have already experienced highs that toiling away in isolation on my hobbies have never come close to
why would you choose to kill yourself rather than achieve those moments again?

>>43927827
fucking midwits istg
>>43927963
>find someone that proves "hell is other people" is not a universal law
yeah that one's a numbers game, and really depends on your environment, external and internal. so luck, but also some factors you can influence to increase the chances too
>stop believing in "heaven without people is not worth entering"
that would be a last resort for me tbhon

>>43927992
>they can't do as much damage to you anymore, and you have more time to improov your life
Outside of physical torture no one can really make my life worse, but that doesn't actually matter much. I can "improve" my own life in a multitude of ways but none of it really matters much to me. I was en route to being moderately successful in a field that I was passionate about and where I would be helping others - I don't really care anymore though. Not if I'm going to be alone.
>a society good enough to have an effective karma system
Probably doesn't exist. Certainly not in the US.
>assuming you're not the crazy delusional one ofc
The fun part is that you'll never know.

>>43928016
Because it isn't up to me. The 'experienced highs' is referring to the relationship I had before she took of the mask. I would need to find someone who hits most if not all of the same notes, except actually means it. That happening is ENTIRELY random chance. Considering no one had ever met was remotely close before, I have high doubts this theoretically person can even exist, and if they could, there's likely nothing I can actively do that'll lead me to meeting and having a relationship with them. The only thing that could is mindlessly existing on the off chance I stumble upon them, or saving myself the effort and jumping off a bridge or something.

>>43928018
>really depends on your environment
Unfortunately my physical environment is not good for what I'm looking for but trying to parse where else I could even go that would have significantly better odds basically just points to "anywhere", which isn't helpful. Also -
>some factors you can influence to increase the chances too
Still just chance. Increased odds are not assurance. I could do everything right - again - and still get nothing.

>that would be a last resort for me tbhon
I tried a lot of things so far, in terms of trying to force mentalities. It doesn't actually work if you aren't properly delusional.

>>43928171
>Increased odds are not assurance. I could do everything right - again - and still get nothing.
absolutely. But depression has a way of making us think that the chances are too low, the effort is too high, and so on. At least it was for me. Nudging things in a higher-chance direction when you have the energy for it, doesn't hurt. Might not help, but usually a better use of time than the alternative.

>>43928171
>Because it isn't up to me
surely you're not OP, who said
>I worked on myself, dug myself out of a hole, did everything I could to help others for a very long time. I got to a point most people never could from a point most people will never have to experience
you don't (((honestly))) believe that you have no agency. you're dooming bc you had bad experiences. i don't blame you, this is the perfect place for it. but please don't actually kys

>>43928230
Problem is most of the things that 'nudge things in a higher-chance direction' are performative and would lead to hollow results I don't actually want, or would stand to benefit others I either explicitly don't want to benefit or who I have no reason to believe aren't people I would not want to benefit. It's all effort that marginally improve my odds but have considerably higher chances to do things I am against. I left it out, but the pedo my ex cheated on me with? I talked them out of suicide multiple times before I knew properly what kind of person they were.

>>43928273
I am op. And I said that because the point was that, despite achieving those things, I was only happy when I got what I actually wanted - a relationship where I felt we genuinely connected and they genuinely cared for me. I accomplished those things as a means to an end. Because I was led to believe that if I "locked in", did what I was "supposed" to do, I would just stumble upon what I wanted. Instead all I got was performativity. But the thing is, they were the only person who made ANY kind of effort, even if it was fake and just a means to use me.

I can make money, accomplish goals, become successful in a multitude of ways. None of this will actually make anyone care about the things I care about. It won't make them care about me. It won't make them want to be a part of my life - outside of trying to take advantage of what I then have to offer. I cannot make people be better, to have morals and principles.

>>43928417
>are performative and would lead to hollow results I don't actually want, or would stand to benefit others I either explicitly don't want to benefit or who I have no reason to believe aren't people I would not want to benefit.
what are you thinking of? I was thinking more being more often in environments that are more likely to have more compatible people, doing activities that also put you in a more conductive mindspace too

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>>43928417
>I was only happy when I got what I actually wanted
desu it sounds like getting what you wanted has made you supremely unhappy. you're gettin' bodied by the demon king of the sixth heaven (many such cases)

>>43928447
Some of the things I mentioned in my OP post. 'Being confident, yet agreeable'. 'Helping others without expecting anything in return'. 'Engaging in what what I'm passionate about while trying to not come across as self-absorbed or pretentious'. I did the "just do your own thing" stuff for a long time, going to places and engaging in groups where people supposedly shared my interests and values. It got me nowhere. Unfortunately caring about things in the west is cringe. As is not being massively hypocritical when it comes to your social beliefs. Lots of people I met who I had only very surface level shared interests with - which isn't a criticism of them, just an acknowledgement that they aren't what I'm looking for - or people who purported to have values I hold but who were really just moral grand standing for brownie points and did not actually stand by those values if it meant going against the public consciousness.

>>43928486
Nonsense magical thinking that ignores the reality of deception. It was what I wanted IF it was sincere. I was happy with getting it BECAUSE I was led to believe it was sincere. A sort of placebo effect that proves that getting what I want would make me happy, but also showcases that I have never gotten what I want.

>>43928565
ok so let's get down to brass tacks
what kind of person are you looking for? man, woman, nb, cis, trans, what are the dealbreakers, what interests and personality are a minimum vs the ideal, etc

>>43928565
>I was happy with getting it BECAUSE I was led to believe it was sincere
how can you possibly know there was no sincerity? a bit presumptuous of you to think you can read people so well, no?

>>43927423
>>That horrible person who did horrible things to you is actually miserable!
yeah normies love that one for some reason. something about the cycle of abuse meme and pretending every single abuser only does that shit because of severe mental illness appeals to them like nothing else. it lets them stay in control ig.

regardless i suggest you pursue even abstract solitude

>>43927822
real asshit honestly
>t.german

>>43928618
They cheated on me with a pedophile anon. And when I was mentally spiraling and still trying to salvage it, they immediately went to go fuck and date someone else before attempting to fix things with me. While at the same time leading me on with "maybe one day" type shit constantly. Everything they did went against the idea that they gave a fuck about me, AND went against all the things they claimed to be important to them. It turns out that the best way to tell a compelling lie is to believe it yourself - and they're either a compulsive liar or so buried in self delusion that they can't recognize how their actions go against every one of their words.

>>43928585
It's a billion things I could go into deep detail on but we'd be here all day. The most simple way to phrase it is, I am unfortunately only attracted to femininity and some androgyny - reddit bi, if you will. Interests wise, some shared, some tangential, so we have things to we're both into to share, and some things to introduce each other to. I'm ultimately pretentious myself, big into music, and vidya, but really I enjoy all art that pertains to the concepts and messaging I value. Or just which I find 'interesting' based on what it's trying to do. This theoretical person would have to be fairly principled when it came to morals, which is probably the biggest issue. I've developed particularly progressive views but it turns out most progressives only engage in those "values" so far as it directly benefits them.
I dunno. It's a lot of particulars I can't easily define here. Someone who likes the same thing as me matters far less than someone who likes other things for the same reasons I like the things I do.

Anyways I have to go for awhile. I suppose I'll respond more later if the thread isn't dead.

I'm back. Thinking more about how even if I am right - and I feel exceedingly confident that I am - I will just be written off as a schizo so people can maintain peace of mind, so long as they can't personally relate.

I'm autistic too nice book you should publish

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>>43927423
how it feels when the person who relentlessly abused you was legitimately retarded so it's hard to even convict them

>>43927656
>My last ex cheated on me with a pedophile.
how does that work? are you and your ex children?

>>43930617
This is probably meant to be mean but I've had multiple people sincerely suggest I do this based off of random shit I sperged about on here so at this point it's hard to tell.

>>43930662
Partially applicable actually.

>>43930673
We were both adults. She fucked them and then within a week of cheating on me and choosing to stay with them, the other person was openly talking about and showing people that they were trying to hook up with a 14 year old.

>>43927423
I could have written this post but I didn't so fuck you too

Despite all the assy shit (csa, rape as an adult, severe eating disorder) that's happened in my life I've found not focusing on my eternal victimhood has made me feel much better.

>>43931272
Before I gave up I was studying psychology - psychopathology to be specific - in order to help people with fucked backgrounds because it bothered me greatly to know that a lot of them got dealt a bad hand and might be fucked for life for no real reason. Turned out I was pretty good at talking people off bridges and railway tracks. Fully convinced it was just cause I didn't try to rationalize people out of that stuff and just listened to their logic and gave genuine responses. I've never expected people to pretend they didn't have awful experiences that affected them deeply around me and after nearly a decade of downplaying my own shit I've started treating myself the same way.

I mean, you're not wrong really. You'll be happier if you don't dwell on it. My whole thing is that I should have something better - someone better - to keep focused on instead.

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>>43927423
This is really pathetic you think someone would read all this.

>>43933017
i read all of it.

>>43927423
yap yap yap yap yap
u are basically kneecapped by ur hyperplasic sense of morality, all u do is whine abt how ppl arent "genuine" or dont stand by their morals & just do what feels good in the moment
let me tell u a secret: u have one life & u do not have the capacity to change the world with it
most ppl realise this by default & they judge events by their full suite of human senses, thoughts & feelings & immagination & social esteem & momentary pleasure, not an autistic measurement of whether they match some verbal description of morals or values
u are obsessed w/ following a straight & narrow road but the universe doesnt run on straight & narrow roads & the result is most events do not play out the way u want them to, so u generate dissatisfaction in response to them
this dissatisfaction may make u less likeable, it may reduce ur capacity to act & defend urself, u know the details better than i do, but whats unchanging is the fact that this dissatisfaction & misery that u constantly generate does nothing for ur goals & only takes up useless room
lets be clear, u are not commanded by anything in the universe outside of urself to produce this reactive misery, the misery is a separate object from the event & its a choice to produce it anew
the same goes for joy & satisfaction
the sooner u realise this the sooner u can start choosing happiness for once

There are people in the world who are locked in.
Who are building a machine made out of people to lift everyone up, regardless of whether they deserve it.
You find that machine, you understand where it's going, and you build yourself into a part for it and slot yourself in without needing to coordinate that that's what you're doing with any other piece because you all understand what we're doing.

>T4T

>>43927423
I'm sorry, nona :(
You're right. Meaningless promises of hypothetical justice don't matter. I don't know what to do about it either.

as someone who has actually experienced true despair and isolation, crashing out this hard because an ex cheated on you is so fucking funny lol

>>43933017
But you probably did and you replied when the thread was on the last page.

>>43933191
>nothing matters and words are le fake so that means morals are nothing so just be a solipsistic shitheel and maximize life happiness cause you're nothing and will accomplish nothing
>btw this totally isn't projecting my own cope onto others to justify it to myself

>>43934749
Not in the way you think.

>>43934764
It's a self perpetuating problem with a multitude of obvious solutions but the most effective and least bleak one requires people to put even the tiniest shred of effort in, which despite so much of human performativity being centered on pretending to care about "the greater good", is apparently too tall an order still.

>>43934772
Fitting that multiple people complain that I wrote too much when it should take them seconds to read the OP and you're complaining that I didn't cover my lifes story. Equally fitting you skip over the details regarding the collusion, the rape, and the fucking pedophilia of all things in order to try to diminish the experience.

>>43936382
>if people just
ppl will never just, & persisting in an expectation that they will, no matter how "pessimistic", is the equivalent of walking facefirst into a wall everyday expecting it to turn into a door
u imagine morals point to a "better world" & thats what makes them real, but only 1 world exists and thats the one that actually obtains, it doesnt matter if u classify ur imagination as "dreams" or "selfish wants" or "morals" they r all equally unreal, its funny u accuse me of solipsism when u are the one projecting ur demands onto the entire world & imagining that theyre loadbearing
try this as an anti solipsism exercise, "im more like other people than im different from them, im wrong abt things, make mistakes, & do bad things at approximately the same rate that everybody else is within an order of magnitude"
genuinely try to realise, u are not that special or good & ur suffering isnt holy, its just suffering

>>43936666
You just spent a couple hundred words explaining how people "just" think about themselves and only do things for their own personal benefit. People will "just" do anything given the right motivations. But really that isn't even the point or the problem. It's that you don't even grasp the actual consequences of the "wisdom" you purport to have.

Every single thing that exists in your life is the byproduct of other people doing things because they either wanted the world to be better or because they felt they HAD to do it. If the flag is accurate; the fact you even have access to HRT is because of this, unless you're synthesizing it in your fuckin closet. You claim that "everyone realizes XYZ by default" but they don't and it's plainly obvious to anyone with a brain and eyeballs. If they did we never would've gotten out of living in caves. But we can just take this thought experiment to the endpoint real quick and get it over with; the mindset you champion is entirely self serving and argues morals are fake and self imposed. Please go ahead and admit to everyone that you not only defend but condone pedophilia, rape, murder, torture, bestiality, etc. etc. under the purview of "It's just people doing what feels good in the moment." That way we can just have everything on the table.

>>43936825
i dont defend or condone any of that lmao i just dont go out of my way to care more than i have to? im not taking the back foot on this, millions of people get raped, murdered, etc. every single day & its literally fine, the world continues to turn, i continue to have access to hrt, its priced in
& i can guarantee u if most ppl were more like me the rates of pedophilia, rape, murder, torture, bestiality etc wd go down not up, if we wanna play false comparison games i can point to the fact that most ppl in violent extremist terrorist groups r autistic moral realists w/ a different set of morals from u but the same rigidity & outward pointed blame
>we would still be living in caves
u keep assuming that good outcomes only come from good intentions & thats literally not true, the sun exists & bombards the earth w/ astronomical levels of free energy & everything that happens on this planet is downstream from that, plants exist & grow w/ no particular good intention, animals exist & grow off of plants w/ no particular good intention, human civilisation exists & grows off of plants & animals w/ no particular good intention, u are mistaking "wanting the world to be better" as a proximate impetus for action (generally good & productive regardless of impetus) & "wanting the world to be better" as a structure of reflective judgement (generally parasitical on the former, only useful for occasional course correction), these are 2 separate things & u are yoking them together into an ugly chimerical concept
the truth is material life gets better b/c we get better at exploiting solar + terrestrial abundance, & then morals swoop in at the last minute to catch the credit, we had slavery for >20,000 years & we had antislavery morals for even longer than that & nothing happened abt it on the world scale until ~2 centuries ago
ideals arent real only things are

>>43937380
like ok, ideals do exist but they exist as things, they condition how ppl act, but theyre things in the world not outside it (pace early wittgenstein), first things first material conditions incentivise slavery to x degree, then where antislavery ideals exist they rein in the severity of slavery by y degree, again its all priced in, & finally when we "abolish" slavery its not b/c y goes up to 100 its just b/c x < y which is usually from low x not high y, if u have any historical literacy at all u will know that y is mostly constant-order b/c again, ideals r a function of the imagination & our ancestors were not less imaginative than we r today
instead its technology tht affords more profit from complex work, & when u damage ppl from physical coercion they get less capable of complex work to a degree that outweighs the extra profit from them being chattel property, so u have to figure out newer gentler ways of exploiting them, simple as that
ideals r useful for shoring things up at the margins (maybe its still profitable to have 0.5% of the population enslaved but antislavery ideals can punish the incentives there down to 0.05%) but they r not so important that u have to lose ur own happiness for them

my point is ur morals make up a certain limited % of ur life & whether u are a genuinely good person, if u sacrifice them u are losing that limited %, not 100%, if ur morals r in practice costing u more than that % then the "greater good" thing to do is to learn to compromise until they r on net working for u rather than against u
my 2 cents

If you can't even be bothered to type "you" I can't be bothered to read your retardese

>>43933191
this is pretty much the gist of the issue. everyone is too retarded to actually do what they say, and pointing this is out is "autism." or more accurately put, "autism" is actually being more socially aware than a retard normie who claims the title of most socially aware despite actively refusing to analyze anything around them for fear of bad brain feels.

>>43937380
Enlightened reddit pseudo-nihilists are truly the gift that keeps on giving, since this all just amounts to you admitting retardation.

On one hand, you're trying to accuse me of engaging in "autistic moral realism" on par with extremist groups without even knowing what my morals are besides I am against manipulation, infidelity and pedophilia. Just presumptions that I am some kind of christfag puritan or something. Arguing against a theoretical concept rather than the person in front of you.

On the other, you have also repeatedly tried to handwave whatever beliefs you think I have as arbitrary, doing the "were just some dumb animals on a big blue rock isnt that heckin epic!!!" while in the SAME BREATH failing to recognize that under your mindset, THIS APPLIES TO YOU TOO. The only possible argument one can make to convince another person that they shouldn't rape and kill others that isn't appealing to their morals, is to tell them that they would be subject to the actions of others based on THEIR moral beliefs, making it, once again, a decision made based on morals.

You're going on about slavery and the fucking cost-benefit analysis of it as if the reason the abolishment of slavery was adopted wasn't just another instance of things being MORALLY MOTIVATED. Fuck, even your retarded attempt to explain that "we got rid of slavery cause it was more profitable for them to not be injured!" falls completely flat because we can point to a billion ways to improve our social reality RIGHT NOW that both appease moral sensitivities and improve stockholder value over time, but we don't, not because the people making those decisions are some geniuses we can't understand who have it all figured out, but because they're short sighted apes who want to see number go up and have no capacity for second order thinking - just like you.

>>43937598
THIS is far closer to what reality is actually like.

>>43937583
>>43937598
>>43937648
>wahhh u SUPPORT bad things b/c of words u typed
lol, lmao, infinite wordcel cope
>but what ARGUMENT can u make to prevent bad thing from hapening
material arguments made up of material incentives, some small % of which will consist of spoken sound waves & ink on paper & pixels on a screen or w/e
>why isnt everything better NOW NOW NOW
material causes happen in space & time, unlike the contents of ur imagination, amazing that u accuse others of shortsightedness when u r incapable of patience or perspective lmao

>>43937902
>infinite wordcel cope
there's that unfortunate tendency to not want to engage thoughts that make their head hurt I was talking about again.

>>43937927
u are basically oversocialised or smth u cannot escape the paradigm of being ruled by words words words
here is a mental exercise for u, are u happier if someone promises smth good for u & then it comes true, or if smth good happens unexpectedly/undeservedly? assuming the good thing itself is identical? if so, to what degree? & why?

>>43937902
So when do we get to see you sperg out about how emotions are just brain chemicals and how much of a genius Elon Musk is?

>>43938005
nah emotions r important to process w/o dismissing them & elon musk is basically structurally retarded? b/c his existence is 99% money, he's a money elemental more than a human atp
idk why u keep assuming im a reddit person lol i basically have normie lib progressive political views

imo ur emotions r a tool, they r correctly calibrated when they give u good discernment over the range of outcomes u are able to affect, if ur emotions r drowned out by a big sector of "universal values" tht are outside of ur grasp then u r handicapping urself as a person
its like if u started being able to see uv light but it squeezed all ur visible spectrum perception into a small slice of shades of red, like, ok, now u are seeing blue everywhere all the time & everyone looks the same b/c u cant distinguish their features, what was the point of that

>>43938041
You are an ineffectual shitlib trying to preach devout complacency. Your arguments have all boiled down to you misunderstanding why things are, while being overwhelmingly confident you know better than me and everyone else who's responded to you. Insisting ad infinitum that everything exists as is either because It Just Does, or because some theoretical person in the past who you deem to know infinitely better than we possibly could decided that was the best way to do things. Your worldview removes all agency from all people beyond The Ruling Class while putting that same class on a pedestal, which means you either unironically believe we exist in a meritocracy, you believe that all things are pre-ordained by some cosmic force such as fate, or you simply think people shouldn't complain that retards are making widescale decisions that negatively impact their lives because "It's presumptuous to think you know better!"

Sounds like you need a cock in your mouth, girl

>>43938150
>some theoretical person in the past who you deem to know infinitely better
what are u talking abt? are u mistaking me for the schoppy poster? im not them i literally disagreed w/ wittgenstein in my post lmao
i dont think the "ruling class" have special amounts of agency desu, im consistent abt my analyses & i think u have to be more sceptical of "power" & "ownership", u have to separate the mere fact tht large amounts of capital r concentrated in centralised nodes w/ the fiction tht these nodes r identical w/ the meat human theyre named after, i said this when u accused me of being a musk simp
i do believe their proximity magnifies the bad effects of their tantrums & "we" shld probably "restructure society" to prevent this "somehow" but idt its the same as them having full agency over everything they do, & its a mistake to hate the human faces of capital instead of the organisation of it
i dont believe in fate or the just world fallacy & i dont believe in criticising "people" at large, again u r "making an ass of u and me" as the saying goes, my line has been pretty clear this whole thread, maybe ud understand if u considered my posts instead of just the way im disagreing sososo harmfully w/ ur dearly held wordswordswords
my goals are 1 to say things that r true rather than untrue & 2 to help u to relax & be happier + more effective on a personal individual level

>>43938365
>im consistent abt my analyses
No you aren't and I've pointed out multiple instances where you haven't been. You are simply too stupid and techbro materialism brained to reconcile with it. Your confusion in the first bit is yet another example of this; you don't even have a grasp on the intricacies and larger scale implications of the things YOU are trying to make out as immutable fact. Your entire shpeel on slavery presumes some hyper intelligent individual(s) that, unbound by morals (and therefor emotions) decided that they should abolish slavery to maximize production, which in of itself both presumes that they have near perfect knowledge when it comes to maximizing production ("It's all priced in") AND conveniently places the worldview you are trying to push as fundamentally correct.

You have said an astonishingly low amount of things that are true in this thread, just endlessly pushed circular logic with the only outcome to capitulation being others adopting your own delusional complacency and detachment from the problems of the world.

We're in agreement on your "line" being clear. Thing is you are interpret my arguments as simply misunderstanding your "clearly true and correct" points. The reality is you are delusional. You do not understand what you yourself are even saying. You make totalizing statements with no grasp on what those things would mean on a broader scale if we accepted it as fact, and how the way reality has actually played out goes against your assertions.

I already established that you are an ineffectual shitlib. Flavor your stance by saying you 'just wanna help and make people happy =3" is just doubling down on that. If your only methodology to engender happiness is to push "acceptance of reality" (read; apathetic complacency) and you believe negative emotions are unproductive, you are far and away more fixated on words over actions and on magical beliefs than one could ever claim I am with a straight face.

>>43938967
>some hyper intelligent individual(s) that, unbound by morals (and therefor emotions) decided that they should abolish slavery to maximize production
literally wtf are u talking about lmao are u retarded? the literal only way u can conceive of things happening is for a human being to have intended it beforehand? sure & ants navigate large objects around obstacles b/c theres a hyper intelligent foreman ant directing them & water flows downhill b/c god ordained it to lol, im the delusional one
u know we invented flight before we could really understand why it happened right? put newton aside for a moment, we didnt have the navier stokes equations we didnt have the kutta condition we couldnt see takeoff vortices & circulation around the wing, we just vaguely imitated birds & then iterated off of previous designs
newton tells u that the balance sheet evens out but u already knew that b/c u can see w/ ur eyes that the plane flies, u do not know the actual transactions involved & newton doesnt tell u those, if u take a naive view of newton then u will assume that air is just being physically pushed down by the bottom surface of the wing & u will fail to build a plane b/c u wont understand that 2/3 of the lifting force comes from suction above the wing
when i say "its priced in" i mean its in the same sense, the world observably doesnt fall apart from these things that u keep thinking represent the end of all thats good & pure, it just keeps going & the contradictions & hypocrisy & moral cowardice etc that u talk about r a normal part of its functioning, they feel ugly to u but ugly things r still useful & contribute to the good
>intricacies and larger scale implications
u r building hypotheticals upon hypotheticals, just b/c it takes more mental effort to follow does not mean u are reaching more significant results, u are falling into the same idiot trap as every premodern mystic who thought truth came from contemplation & "depth" rather than trial & error

& finally once again im not dismissive of negative emotions, theyre necessary sensemaking tools but so are positive emotions, u maximise ur use of these sensemaking tools when u adjust ur expectations so ur emotional experience is basically diverse & varied like an average persons, if u are dooming then u are basically willfully handicapping urself
2bh im kind of inbetween on whether its better to maximise ur emotional resolution & experience highs & lows or whether its better to maximise ur happiness, but i think if u are functionally maximising ur lows then u are retarded by any schema & its up to u to change, not the world at large

>>43933191
>hmmm what i've written is absolute drivel, anyone can see that. maybe i should replace each instance of "you" with "u" so it comes off more... common, or something. a bit of folksy, salt-of-the-earth, but in an internet way, you know?

>>43939432
Already pointed out ages ago you're arguing against a specter of religious values rather than actually stopping to question what my own values even are. Contradictions, hypocrisy and moral cowardice are not "how it functions", they are the impediments that keep things from functioning better. You are not some aloof and enlightened intellectual, you are a child trying to convince others to take the beatings to maintain the status quo because you either loathe the uncomfy feeling of recognizing that things can be improved somewhat, or view others striving for idealistic goals as performing slights against you and your inaction. You are an enemy of progress.

Funniest part here is I've been pointing out how every extrapolated part of your beliefs are themselves built off of contemplation and assumed correctness rather than actual trial and error, or looking at what we actually know and making reasonable decisions based off of ALL that we know instead of just a portion of what we know that thinks everything else is meaningless.

Oh, people work better when they're in better physical health? Wow what a fucking revolutionary idea. Hey I know. What if we also attend to their emotional well being? Maybe by say... acknowledging and correcting injustices in the world. By socially incentivizing honesty and sincerity. By properly demonizing and punishing manipulation, infidelity, and various forms of abuse. What a novel fucking concept. We have an overabundance of information that showcases easy solutions to widescale problems that would also serve to benefit the average person, and the only reason they aren't adopted isn't because it's not well documented or is some pseudo-science hock shit. It is ENTIRELY because its implementation hinges on key people - or mass swathes of a given culture - to not be entirely self serving, hedonistic, and un-phased by the ways in which they harm others. Y'know, like you are suggesting they be instead.

>>43939692
>they are the impediments that keep things from functioning better
>source: my imagination
>You are an enemy of progress.
>source: my imagination
>It is ENTIRELY because its implementation hinges on key people - or mass swathes of a given culture - to not be entirely self serving, hedonistic, and un-phased by the ways in which they harm others.
>source: my imagination
i think thats basically your problem, u overreact whenever u feel like theres a human being or human beings to blame, & this makes u an ineffective person, & ok i believe u have also been personally unlucky, mayhe thats the bigger part of it, u know better than i do
but i am calling u solipsistic b/c u do not understand tht ppl outside of urself have their own inertia, this inertia isnt just willful its physical b/c ppl r physical systems, & u need to calibrate ur emotional response to their inertia the same way u need to calibrate ur emotional response to the time it takes a meal to be cooked or a building to be built

>>43939675
yea ill cop to that, im accurately signposting that my views r retarded & unpopular :)

>Things do not function as best they could because of a large amount of people who have no interest in facilitating the lives and happiness of others and simply put personal life enjoyment above anything and everything else without regard to the ways that affects others, and also without regard to how those things will affect THEM in the long term.
>"You're just imagining things."
You cannot make this shit up, fucking hell. I'd say open the schools but the stagnation they've dwelled in for decades is a large part of what spawns mouth breathers like this.

i mean u can throw a tantrum over burnt food once in a while thats normal but u should not be getting pressed over everyday things like infidelity
the french dont even believe its a morally bad thing & they get along fine, u put it in the same breath as abuse & u probably also elevate normal lying to the same severity by lumping it in w/ "manipulation", but theyre different & justify diifferent responses
demonising things isnt universally an effective way to solve problems & blame isnt a universally justified emotion, punitive urges usually cost more than theyre worth outside of very severe offences & this is basically borne out by history

>>43939809
im telling u repeatedly, u have a magical view of agency where u think that its "this easy" for people to "just do the right thing", & if this expectation is being defeated by reality on a regular basis then its just as dumb as walking into a wall expecting it to open like a door
if u are going to propose solutions they must be plausible solutions & they have to be plausible according to the laws of physical reality & not just according to moral intuition

>>43939837
>if your suggestions for improving the world don't facilitate and cater to the most infantile and narcissistic parts of the world population then it will never work!
And you say it's my imagination when I call you an enemy of progress. Nah, you're right, we should kowtow to the most destructive, impulsive, sociopathic people in our society. That will definitely make everyone happy and have better lives.

There is nothing hard about not lying. There is nothing hard about not fucking other people when you are in an established relationship. There is nothing hard about not killing and raping others. It actually is "this easy" for people to "just do the right thing" when it comes to these problems because most of it requires active effort on their part to cause harm.

What you try to handwave and ascribe to "moral intuition" is, in fact, backed by decades of scientific inquiry in psychology, as well as an overabundance of putting ideas into practice, which shows significant success, but has not received institutional adoption, and your belief is that this can ONLY mean that it just wouldn't work. That the only ideas that can work are the ones that people jump on immediately. As if we don't have countless instance after instance of widespread adoption of products or tactics that fall completely flat. Pointing to a particular culture that is far from a world superpower in terms of, really any kind of progress, and going "see? it's not on fire and exploding constantly! that means its fine!" is meaningless in a discussion about How Things Could Be Better.

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>>43939837
No they are right. Most peoples problems could be solved if people simply applied willpower and rationality instead of always following the principle of least effort for most immediate gain. You are on the side of the abusers and excuse makers.

>>43939973
>>43940045
>everyone is exactly like me & the only reason theyre different is if theyre morally evil
>if u disagree w/ me u are on the side of the worst ppl i can think to name
u are basically a petulant child

i mean let me make this a bit more clear: u are assuming that everyone lives their life by considering their options from a place of 0 momentum, u are assuing it takes active effort to cheat on a partner & for most people thats literally not true, they r imbued w/ momentum in their thoughts & actions b/c they r not developmentally delayed fuckups like u, they connect w/ others out of love and atteaction in a fluid way & it rather takes effort to stop them, & effort isnt magical or infinite so its basically a constant that it happens
u are wondering why a river "chooses" to flow w/ chaotic eddies & destructive torrents instead of smooth laminar flow when u urself are frozen in ice, & then u are lamenting the fact that u are frozen in ice
the two attitudes r related

>Heh, look at these idiots. Thinking everyone is just like them.
>They should know better. Everyone is just like ME, actually.
Falling headfirst into the single most common form of cognitive dissonance. Never mind the fact my entire thing was complaining that people are evidently not like me in ways that only serve to perpetuate misery.

Then going on to say "cheating just happens" and once more removing all agency from the average person. A far more bleak view of the world than even I have, really. I used the word 'solipsistic' right off the bat and despite your cries of mischaracterization here you are trying to explain how, actually, the people who act basal impulses and short sighted hedonism without regard for the damage it will cause are just smarterer and more developmentalified than I am and I just wouldn't get it.

Every step involved in developing feelings for another person and then having sex with them requires active involvement. Active effort. Active participation. It is not some event that someone gets swept away in, completely unable to take some other kind of action. This is doubly true when you are ALREADY in a committed relationship.

The people that benefit most from a high forgiveness society are people who are most likely to abuse it. The biggest takeaway anyone should glean from your "worldview" is that YOU are liable to cheat and are simply trying to make a (very poor) attempt at getting people complacent with your emotional terrorism and exploitation.

>>43940354
u are very desperate to draw false equivalences, im not saying u are like me or that everyone is like me, i am just saying that theres a wide range of variation out there in real people & this variation is from physical factors w/ their own inertia rather than from deficits in moral character, & u have to account for that the same way u have to account for impurities in metal, it doesnt mean metal is 100% unsalvageable impurities or that u cant refine metal to be more pure, but it does mean u reach exponentially higher costs the more u expect it to be 100% pure
this is an example right? u are getting insanely pressed & hostile at me despite my having done nothing in this thread except refuse to condemn ugly behaviour in the extreme terms u are demanding & instead suggest that u might benefit from entertaining some charity & leniency
ive never cheated on a person in my life, i wouldnt want to do it, ive already characterised it as ugly behaviour, but i also just dont think it needs to be the end of a relationship or the subject of moralistic condemnation if it happens, & ive met people who do get swept away in love & who i appreciate as good, wonderful people in other ways for the same underlying factors that drive them to cheat
in fact most people are generally prosocial, they just dont view it as a 24/7 binding duty, & if u have a high forgiveness society then u benefit more from letting the average person relax than u lose from defectors/free riders
if this werent the case then civilisation wouldnt exist, we wld be a solitary species sharpening rocks against each other 24/7

>>43940457
Yknow if you actually paid attention at all here, you would already have known I personally did the "treating ugly behavior with charity and leniency" thing.

>>43928417
>the pedo my ex cheated on me with? I talked them out of suicide multiple times before I knew properly what kind of person they were.

It turns out that a lot of terrible people are easy to spot and will continue to do terrible things if you give them an out. Also turns out most people are only 'prosocial' insofar as they are afraid of the consequences if they aren't - or really, just if they get caught. The mindset you are trying to preach is directly to blame for there being a person out there, right now, who has already or is in the process of attempting to molest a child. You have already failed to pause for even a moment and consider the points I have been making to poke holes in your statements a dozen times over, instead opting to presume correctness out the gate based solely on the belief that since we aren't living in a nuclear hellscape, everything must just be peachy.

One of the few things you've been right about is that a lot of punitive measures aren't particularly effective. But that's because it's typically punishment without a purpose, or punishment without making it clear what was done wrong or what can be done differently. A child that faces no negative reinforcement what so ever, even when their actions are disruptive if not harmful, is not one that will grow to be well adjusted. But that's all you've been advocating for. Showing those already willing to harm others that there are no true consequence to their actions. In fact, you seem to think we should give them the ability to drive. To drink. To have sex. To own guns. To make decisions that shape the lives of thousands if not millions. Simply because "it would be mean" to do otherwise.

>>43940783
yea i didnt say any of that lmao, u are extrapolating like hell
try this on for size: "the person i am talking to is talking to me, specifically, as an individual, and not making a kantian point about how every single person in the world should act"
everything ive been saying has been to poke holes in the plausibility of ur convictions b/c it seems obvious to me that they r handicapping your life personally for structural reasons
im not a punishment abolitionist or any of the stuff u accuse me of lmao, i just think u are too negative judgement heavy in ur own life & there r plausible alternatives

>>43940885
You "didnt say any of that" because, again, you have put no real thought into the long term impact of the worldview you hold and posit here. Your inability to comprehend that if you put your hand on a hot stove, you will get burned, is your own intellectual failure. It isn't baseless extrapolation, no matter how many times you try to claim it is.

As a continuation of your inability to understand basic logical reasoning, you are now devolving into outright magical thinking. An assertion that I am 'handcapping' myself and inducing my own negative emotions through my judgement, even when presented with a very simplistic cause and effect scenario that showcases what actually happened.

Mellowing out on my convictions would not have made my ex not cheat on me. It would not have made the pedophile stop being a pedophile. It would not have made me other ex not rape me. The only thing it MIGHT have done is make the person I mentioned taking an interest in more likely to reciprocate. But probably not! They already led me on as is and presented their own paranoid trust issues as immutable fact and 'justification' for their actions, while condemning my own despite the fact I was the only one open and honest about the intrusive thoughts they caused and how I was trying to circumvent them.

Point being, I already TRIED your "plausible alternatives". I did them for 10 years. They are explicitly why these things happened to me. But you, and a not insignificant amount of others, instead of wanting to condemn the selfish, cruel, socially destructive actions of those who harmed me, want to try to claim that somehow my unhappiness is my own doing simply because I have stopped engaging in naivety and humility that serves only the people who have done me harm and will almost certainly continue to do harm to others.

>>43941077
i think if u are seeking to multiply ur own negative emotions instead of just getting over it then u are displaying evidence of the overgrown ego which got u entangled w/ these ppl in the first place yea

>>43941151
The complete lack of self awareness that is required to come into a thread, read through accounts of my past mentality which mirrors the one you have tried to argue for, go on to read that the cumulative outcome of that mindset led to me getting sexually assaulted and betrayed by multiple people around me at the same time, and to claim this was actually due to my 'overgrown ego' without a hint of irony, is truly something. A self report for the centuries.

>>43930662
hot take but the "abusers are retarded" is 10000x truer than the "abusers are traumatized" cappery

>>43940045
reminding me why i avoid these threads so hard
this board is fucking retarded, the highest median posters are still going to be twitteresque posters that are forced to half-ramble because they're a lot more confident in what theyre saying than how well they actually know it

>>43940173
embrace solitude nona. unironically almost nothing real has been said ITT and the chance anything will is negligible

>>43927423
That’s a lot to read anon.
I’m gonna guess you deserved it.

>>43941551
A lot of abusers were, actually, traumatized, but yes you have to have a significant amount of mental retardation to experience that and decide you're going to inflict it on others or even stand idly by while others become subject to it.

The real (pedantic) discussion is where you draw the line on culpability when it comes to ignorance on smaller scale interpersonal bullshit. If a parent gives their child everything they ask for, and never show them an ounce of negativity towards their actions, should we actually hold them responsible in some way for the inevitable sociopathic activities that child gets up to?