>>44287225
literally just use he/him and be a dude. calm down

>>44287236
Why the fuck would I wanna do that

>>44287256
because you're a man? you can be a feminine man.

>>44287225
>t. cism on e
i agree btw

>>44287276
But I don’t like being treated or referred to as a man
And uh E gives you tits and makes you look more “female” which I like soooo

>>44287225
>neovagina is not actually a vagina, it’s essentially a male organ with a female aspect
I'm curious why you think that
it's female cells, female tissues, in the configuration of a female organ. Why does its former configuration matter?

>>44287225
Trans women are not real women but it's also the closest a natal male is going to get to becoming one with current technology.

>>44287389
>female cells
Uh no? Where did you get this from?
>female tissue
Uh no?? Where did you get this from?
>in the configuration of a female organ
If I fold a piece of paper in the shape of a bird does that make a real bird? No, it’s a facsimile of a bird, an imitation.

>>44287225
Congratulations, you see through the cult ideology. Stay away from them and you'll do ok. Also nb they them doesn't make sense either, just be feminine or gay and happy

>>44287385
you can be a man with those things. people would prefer if you didn't live in make believe world

>>44287430
what do you think makes a cell male or female?

>>44287435
you know the classic "youre delusional" shit doesnt work if I say in my fucking post that im basically not a woman right?
I dont think im a man, I do think Im a male though
who gives a fuck lmaooo
passing negates all of this
if you look like beyonce for example you can go by he she they whatever youll be seen as an attractive woman regardless soo

>>44287447
the cell belonging to/coming from a male/female organism?
getting a neovagina via penile inversion for example doesnt mean you now have a female organ
it means your male organ(penis) takes on a female aspect

>>44287456
you are a man and a male. being delusional about gender instead of sex is still being delusional

>>44287471
>the cell belonging to/coming from a male/female organism?
so what makes an organism male or female?
have you ever touched a woman's skin and noticed that it's much softer than a man's? Why is that?

>>44287225
insufferable

Hey guys, did you know males aren't ACTUALLY females? Yep, this one is going to shock you, but trans women DONT have uteruses, can't get pregnant and aren't actually XX female with a womb! Betcha didn't know that!

>>44287479
>so what makes an organism male or female?
reproductive capacity in the strict biological sense
when it comes to cells unrelated to that, chromosomes
exogenous hormones do have a decent effect on this but the cells are still fundamentally one sex or the other
Im honestly concerned that you even need to ask this question
I thought it was obvious that neovaginas arent female organs
it is weird going on this board and reading about how some trans women seem to think they are literally the same as cis women when they objectively are not

>>44287525
so the conclusion is
is a neovagina just a dick?
no
is it a female organ(just like a vagina is)
also no
its somewhere in between
XY cells in an estrogenized male are not the same as normal XY cells, but they also do not suddenly become female cells
you are just a "weird" male

>>44287525
>reproductive capacity in the strict biological sense
lots of cis people can't have kids, what sex are they?
>when it comes to cells unrelated to that, chromosomes
you mean the sex chromosomes specifically I guess. Why are they so important when they do so little? The Y chromosome literally just codes for random sperm and testicle related stuff, if you don't have testicles it's literally irrelevant.
If a cis woman had a neovagina would it be a female organ?
doesn't it seem weird to say that your skin, or your arm or whatever is a certain sex based on how you have kids or whatever. Aren't there more relevant ways to distinguish sexes?

>>44287225
Absolutely based and completely agree
>most passing mtfs are essentially just boobtwinks
I think just saying transwoman/man is most apt, because they objectively are not equivalent to either cis gender as long as they are on the opposite sexes' hormones, although gigapassoids can still get away with using cis terms, as looks trump everything no matter what, thats why im a
>t. Cism on hrt
Because there is nothing even remotely woman looking about me, and looks are everything (almost)

>>44287225
you have a brain, you are your brain, your entire conscious experience in this very moment is contained in your brain. males and females' brains develop differently, this affects their feelings about their body and social role. sometimes, because of genetic variations/hormone fluctuations in the womb, a male can develop a brain thats more like a female's or vice versa, in which case the person that brain goes on to become will develop gender dysphoria. trans women are women because they have a brain like a woman's, and because 'woman' is a social group, not a sex. trans women belong in the woman social group because the person they are is a woman, their body is only the organism that is hosting them.

>>44287559
>lots of cis people can't have kids, what sex are they
Nta but this is a retarded example, they still have the parts they're just broken its not the standard setting, and for the few who dont strictly are intersex, but you people love to blow the number of them out of proportion when they are anomalies and very rare at that, while usually being a mishmash of features, honestly trans people are closest biologically to intersex imo

>>44287225
You can just kill yourself instead of making your neurosis our problem. Or you could pay a shrink. Then someone would care about you roping or not.

>>44287232
so if i castrate my USPS guy he’ll be trans?

>>44287559
<what sex are they?
The same ones they were assigned at birth
If you have a non-functioning uterus or are just simply infertile for whatever reason, you are still female
this is not a gotcha
youre body is still oriented to producing large gametes(towards female reproduction)
>if a cis woman had a neovagina would it be a female organ?
this is an impossible question as its only a neovagina if its made from male parts
if you mean a female was somehow born with female reproductive organs but no visible outer genitalia(eg. no labia or even say, no vagina) and had it reconstructed from other parts of herself
then yes that neovagina would be a female organ
>doesnt it seem weird
uh no, it doesnt, because your chromosomes dont only exist in the cells that make up your reproductive organs
>arent there more relevant ways to distinguish sexes?
if you mean phenotypically, then sure
a small minority of trans women would qualify as phenotypically female(as in you look like a female), but in the normal biological sense your reproductive capacity did not alternate so
This also precludes the fact that most trans people do not pass as the sex they are supposedly transitioning to anyways
it is a false victory anyways, as a boy that looks indistinguisable from a normal girl is not suddenly a girl, thats just not how it works

>>44287613
>"wahhhhhhh tranny this tranny that"
you really came to the trans board to say all that
man up and stop whining

>>44287682
The day that humanity is able to see that biological sex isn't something that makes people fundamentally different from eachother will be great. Who fucking gives a shit about what gametes you produce? I'm guessing you're gonna cite a bunch of shit about consequences of hormones that you can change with HRT and then circle back to gametes when pressed on that. Do you not get tired of trotting out the same old arguments time and again?

>>44287682
if I showed you a picture of a man's hand and a woman's hand, you would be able to tell the difference without checking for chromosomes or testicles
the point is that sex is just the physical difference between men and women. A woman's body is female because it is constructed according to a female bodyplan. But sex expression is determined at the cellular level, based on sex hormones. It doesn't matter what your sex chromosomes are, if your cells are exposed to estrogen and not testosterone, they will develop as female cells, which form tissues in female arrangement, which form organs in female arrangement. The difference between male and female isn't shape, it's the nature of the tissue that produces the shape.
this obsession with genes is nonsense. Humans are not genes, they are organisms. If the blueprint for your house is different from the actual house, it is the blueprint that is wrong.

>>44287552
It's not in between at all. It's a man's skin grafted and sliced and reshaped into a hole. There's nothing female or feminine about it. You can pump estrogen into a man all you want, he'll die before he becomes a woman.

>>44287225
Me personally I always figured we were some kind of third gender thing. Like a manifestation of the dionysian aspect of human culture. Our separation from the greater sphere of humanity is proven by our disproportionately large rate of neurodivergence. I am generally disgusted by the personalities and actions of both foids and moids, I do not think I am alone in this. If I could be permitted to go off the ranch and posit a schizo spiritualist theory. I would go as far as to say that we represent the perfect whole of adam before god split them in twain to create duality, a prima materia of man. Which would explain why our spirits are so bright, for better or for worse.

>>44287586
I see
what do you think about self-id trans woman
>brain like a woman
this is highly debatable
>woman is a social group, not a sex
eh not exactly woman is both a social group and has relatively specific sexed implications
biologically a woman is an adult human female
trans women cant be female, and so they at best can be pseudo-women
in the social sense, what qualifies you to socially be a woman? Being stereotypically feminine? Looking "like a woman"?

>>44287722
you have a very limited understanding of what a vaginoplasty actually entails
this crude description also doesnt mean much considering human sex organs are made up of(mostly) the same things just shape differently(eg. a clitoris is basically just a really tiny penis, which is why trans men can get micropenises from taking T)
estrogen also effects tissues and cells, meaning that they are objectively different than that of a normal male

>>44287225
yeah i just see myself as a mentally ill autistic man that wants to look a certain way

>>44287225
The fact that you called yourself Nona tells me you do see yourself as a woman. And to do that you do see transwomen as women. This is just autotransphobic cope.
>out of the closet troon who uses male pronouns.

>>44287724
You're not divine. You fed into your normal body issues (that everyone has) until it became everything you are. All trannies do this. You create an algorithm that feeds you until it's all you can see. If you hadn't reaffirmed your trauma and fed your delusions, you would've been normal.

>>44287737
You might be the most retarded tranny I've talked to, today at least. You speak like a redditor with zero understanding of what you're talking about. I bet you're the smartest mod on the femboy Discord

>>44287753
Can you shut the fuck up already? Either you're some chud epically owning the trannies online or you're a pathetic tranny doing negative self talk and taking up space in the board. Either option is thoroughly pathetic and a waste of everyone's time. You suck at writing by the way.

>>44287225
Trans women as women makes sense for those who are seen as women.

>>44287771
I like how, in typical transphobe fashion
you immediately start projecting and hurling insults when you cant come up with an intelligent response
trying to play this superiority game is insane on 4chan
im a young mtf with friends family and a healthy life who goes on this board for entertainment and ocasional debates like this thread
who are you?
A transphobe who goes to the den of trans people to whine about how much you dislike them
I have a reason to be here; whats your excuse?

>>44287225
>I'm trans
>I'm still the same gender
Come on man. Just admit you're a femboy before you get sucked into all the gender shit and kill yourself.

>>44287731
>what do you think about self-id trans woman
i think if they prefer to embody the social role of a woman then that's their prerogative and it's stupid to draw an arbitrary line and say these kinds of people aren't allowed in under any circumstances.
>this is highly debatable
not really there's a lot of sold science around it
>biologically a woman is an adult human female
a woman is not 'biologically' anything, the word woman is a descriptor we impose on the world not fundamental to the nature of reality itself. and the way we use the word woman is in the context of social roles and expectations, if we're talking about sex we'll use the terms male or female generally. obviously we use the word women when talking about people of the female sex a lot of the time, but that's just because most women are female so like no duh, but fundamentally the fact that we even feel the need to make a distinction between men and women outside of sex and medical contexts is all social.
>in the social sense, what qualifies you to socially be a woman?
it's not a matter of qualification to me. i think i am 'neurologically a woman', but even if i wasn't i still think people should have the liberty to choose the social role they want to embody and not be expected to fit into one box or another simply because of their sex.

>>44287847
>allowed in
What do you mean by allowed in? I think if you only self id as a woman and dont transition you should still be treated as a man where it counts(eg. sent to male prisons and such)
>sold science
eh its shown that trans woman have differences similar to female brains but this isnt definitive AND one must also consider homosexuality as gay males are also shown to have biological similarities with females in various aspects. At a certain point it becomes unclear what is causing what
>a woman is not biologically anything
well, this is just objectively incorrect. we use the word 'woman' in both the social sense and the biological sense simaltaneously, in most cases. Neither side can be discarded for the sake of argument if you want to capture the entire picture, but when it comes down to the physical reality of things, a woman is defined as a "adult human female". And its not "a lot of the time" it is in 99+ percent of cases, so. I think a trans woman can socially be a woman, and can phenotypically present as a female; do I believe that makes them a female or a woman in the literal, physical sense? No.
>"I am neurologically a woman"
An interesting reply considering you are essentially saying "because I have a female brain, I am a woman". And I agree people should be able to choose the social role they want, but that doesnt mean anyone has to take it seriously, or to give it any actual weight in reality.

>>44287908
>if you only self id as a woman and dont transition
i mean if someone just calls themself a woman and changes literally nothing else then i don't think they've embodied the social role at all so i don't see how that's really relevant to what im saying.
>At a certain point it becomes unclear what is causing what
it's really not at all though. you saying this makes me think you are being disingenuous. are you a chud?
>well, this is just objectively incorrect.
the concept of womanhood is not objective dipshit.
>we use the word 'woman' in both the social sense and the biological sense simaltaneously
i addressed that, did you not read my post?
>a woman is defined as a "adult human female"
says who, matt fucking walsh? i think you're baiting more the more i read here.
>you are essentially saying "because I have a female brain, I am a woman".
yeah pretty fucking much?
>but that doesnt mean anyone has to take it seriously, or to give it any actual weight in reality.
i never said you have to do anything, you can give any idea on this entire earth any amount of "weight in reality" you want, you are a free soul, i'm just saying you would be wrong to view woman as a synonym of female and call it a day.

how do people get like this? arguing about the definition of woman and female for hours on the internet. welcome to our deep dive on online internet culture, where we examine the behaviors of the deranged! what made them this way? could this happen to you? tune in tonight at 7

>>44287966
All I am saying is the evidence is not definitive. This is a fact. No reputable biologist will sit in your face and tell you the whole "trans women have female brains" thing is sold science. I dont know what to tell you. You accusing me of being a chud(im literally a tranny) doesnt making your rhetoric any better.
>concept of womanhood
A woman is biologically an adult human female. This is settled science and has been for a very, very long time. You said a woman is not biologically anything, which is objectively incorrect. Womanhood(which is a social thing) is obviously not objective. But thanks for calling me a dipshit I guess.
>says who, matt fucking walsh
no? The idea that a woman is an adult human female is not a niche position?
>yeah pretty fucking much
I mentioned this is as im identifying a tension in your argument. You keep leaning on this sociological definitions of womanhood, yet when it comes time to answer why you think youre a woman you grab at something biological("I am neurologically a woman"). I genuinely find that interesting. I'm not baiting, I just dont agree with you.

Your last point is fair enough.

The entire reason I made this thread in the first place is because I wished to debate this kind of thing as it seems like trans people are consistently really bad at arguing why they are the way they are without reaching for rhetorically unsound argumentation(eg. "What about infertile women?")

This consistent rhetorical weakness made me reflect upon my own identity as a dysphoric mtf, leading me to making this post. Hope that clear things up.

>>44288003
I was honestly bored and had time to kill
I also enjoy arguing about this kind of thing. I find the format of 4chan threads lends to this kind of thing; unlike say, twitter, you can write a lot in one post.

>>44288027
I think I have had my fun, though
This thread gave me a decent bit to think about, but I remain largely unconvinced
at the end of the day, none of this matters much if you look and sound like a woman since youll be treated as one whether you like or not
if youre a neverpasser, well tough luck then

>>44287225
Do some men being sissies make sense to you? I mean in the sense that they are like girls not in some pornography sense

>>44288059
just think it's funny these go on for hours and hours. it's cool

>>44287276
How come can I be can I have breast can I be perceived as a woman because it's safer for me to be a woman?>>44287276

>>44288018
>All I am saying is the evidence is not definitive.
you are sowing the seeds of doubt in order to fall back on the negative as the default assumption when the positive is more likely.
>No reputable biologist will sit in your face and tell you the whole "trans women have female brains"
i should hope not, that would be the purview of a neurologist. but to your point yes i am aware the science is not fully developed, that doesn't make it any less true.
>A woman is biologically an adult human female. This is settled science and has been for a very, very long time.
citation needed???
>no?
then citation needed, like you cant just drone "adult human female" and expect me to accept it wholesale when that's not a reflection of the way we actually use the word woman or think about the concept of womanhood.
>You keep leaning on this sociological definitions of womanhood, yet when it comes time to answer why you think youre a woman you grab at something biological("I am neurologically a woman").
womanhood is a social group, i am naturally inclined toward membership in that social group because of my neurology. this is not a tension, the only reason the social group exists in the first place is because human neurology diverges along the lines of sex in the way it does.

>>44288073
rewrite this

>>44287385
you don't have to worry about men challenging you to a fight Because men don't usually bully women in the fights

>>44287786
Yes being seen as a woman is the main thing and the only thing for me personally. I wouldn't mind my body was totally male as long as other males thought of me as a woman after sex but just so they would not believe me and physically harm me

>>44288079
I'm trying to say if I look like a woman and other people see me as a woman I'll be treated as a woman and therefore I don't have to put up with all the tough shit men have to put up with. Like being tough and going about to fight in the war

I can see your tongue tied when somebody from another generation comes on here and tells you about the way it used to be. Transsexuals used to be males who could not cut living as a man the male sex role. We were feminine men who couldn't manage to live as men because we're constantly humiliated and bullied for being so feminine. Original psychiatrist thought of us has been so abnormally feminine that we should live as women.

>>44288078
Im going to bed soon, and I dont especially feel like whipping out neurological studies rn so ill leave your brain stuff alone for now
>citation needed
this has been the standard definition for a very long time. Does this mean that is objectively what a woman is biologically, no questions asked? I suppose not. And it is a reflection of how we use the word woman as biology are heavily intertwined, and the vast, vast majority of women are female, and womanhood is typically defined, at least in part, by things that are exclusive to being female. Like I said before I think you can perhaps socially be a woman, but that does not mean you biologically are one. Trans women are males.
>woman is a social group...
this is a fair response.

>>44288150
*biology and sociology are heavily intertwined*
i love typos

this entire post makes no sense
imagine if someone oesn't have a pp and yet you're like "oh this is a boy" it's literally hilarious because she's obviously not going to be able to be a boy with no penis

>>44288150
>this has been the standard definition for a very long time.
citation needed!!! also i still dont care because if that is the ""standard definition"" then the standard definition was simply created without a full understanding of the factors that led to the formation of the men and women social groups in the first place.
>but that does not mean you biologically are one.
"biologically a woman" is an oxymoron to me, woman does not describe biology, it describes one's social role. yes, people sometimes use the word woman as a stand-in for female, but again that is a matter of heuristics and not the actual nature of womanhood. the fact that we have this other word, i mean even the fact that we use different pronouns for men and women, has nothing to do with biology, it has to do with creating a social distinction.

>>44288235
Originally, transsexuals did not fit into any modern definitions