>>44627830
good and sane post

>>44627830
oh my god, I wish everyone thought about it like this. you hit the nail on the head

>>44627830
Well, everything you wrote could have been ripped straight from my own mind, so you at least have one other anon who’s with you

>>44627830
<3

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>>44627830

>>44627830
This feels like a breath of fresh air to read, although I feel more alienated by the fact that I'd still rather be a cis man and thus am basically transitioning against my own will. I'm well aware that I'd have an objectively easier and better live as a cis man, and I want to have that better life. There's no way I'd ever be able to achieve even a fraction of that if I keep transitioning, and it all pains me so much.
What's worst is that it feels like there's no escape. I like what estrogen is doing to me and it does make me feel more alive, but tbhon I just want to go back to when everything was a cold calculation

>>44627830
it really doesnt matter if trans women are women or not. because ultimately people will treat you like a woman if you look like one and act like one, if you dont then they wont. its all about how you look and how you live. thats blackpilling but its also relieving, theres nothing deep down in your soul that makes you a woman or a man, its up to you to change the script.

you have a nuanced perspective on a hotbutton issue and are capable of understanding that other human beings have internal lives - from my observations about life you are part of a .%001 global elite in terms of awareness and interpersonal analysis. the top of the mountain is a lonely place. if other people do not metacogitate like you then explaining any of this will unfortunately be impossible, since they would not have the same mental muscles worked out as you, and leave you kind of isolated

>>44627967
well thats another thing like, I do okay. Im pretty much exclusively addressed as female. But that's looks, yknow. but in everyone comes in with "do your hobbies pass?" "do you soul pass?" "does your taste in music pass" and honestly? no. I like Metal Gear and The Beatles and a bunch of other stuff that'd be regarded as nerdy guy stuff. but so what? I see so many of my friends beat themselves up over this and i just don't understand why they torture themselves so. You can aspire to fit in sure but like you should also be able to *be you* yknow?

>>44627830
Gigatrvke

>>44628138
Exactly, this is the part insecure trannies don't get

>>44628138
if you like the the effects of estrogen you are "truetrans". simple as. cis males do not enjoy the experience of being estrogen dominant or what e does to their bodies.

also the obsession with malebrain and fembrain on this board is utter retardation. no one cares. passing is all that matters. if you look and sound like a woman but have "malebrained" interests then you are still more of a woman to society than the most "fembrained" hon on earth.

>>44628188
how am I even supposed to know if I like the effects? I already have tits ffs (for fucks sake not the surgery (thought it was funnier to write it out(I don't know whether this is even how you'd correctly use parentheses lol)))

>>44628257
balanced parentheses it compiles

>>44627967
mfw gender is a social construct actually means that other people socially construct your gender for you when they perceive you and not you get to choose how other people think about your gender just cause and therefore its fine to be completely female and identify as male or vice versa.

>>44628328
My initial question was serious btw. (Am I using parentheses wrong?)

>>44627830
Because this is a very materialist analysis, and most people are very much not materialists.
>transphobic people just want to bring you into their little semantic funhouse
Most people live their entire lives trapped in semantic funhouses, pro- and anti-trans alike.

>>44628510
>materialists
not op, but I've never considered myself a "materialist" for my way of thinking. It just feels like common sense and I'm actually unable to wrap my head around what is implied to be the norm

>>44627830
i agree with your takeaways, but i think people should care a lot about trans women being women, outside of an ethical imperative (and definitely not in an Unchanging Metaphysical Internal Gender à la The Soul way). trans women deserve dignity and that dignity is only available when we are structurally and linguistically recognized as women, afforded the rights & protections of women and the epistemic authority to speak on our oppression as (trans)misogynized subjects and rally together. when we are denied the social recognition of being women, it's easier to other us, to treat us as subhuman or acceptable targets, and i think the interpersonal crosses with the political in quite a few ways here. the respect or basic decency which other people may treat us with is pretty fickle. while cis women aren't afforded much, they're allowed to get away with a lot more than trans ones. we have to make ourselves even smaller, take up even less space, etc. without having those protections to fall back on. i think is a natural reaction to be worried about others internally considering you as something else when it takes very little for someone to justify hurting you, even when they seem to be treating you well.
that isn't to say our similarities to cis women should become the condition for recognizing the misogyny we experience as such, but you are definitely right in that those trite affirmations do nothing. you're not going to convince people invested in normative claims about biology that they're wrong, because they're fundamentally not concerned with whether something actually is or isn't true. they just want to hurt trans people. it's doubly ineffective when liberals throw around "TWAW" while leaving their bigoted intuitions completely unexamined. this is a political problem that mere observations won't solve.

>>44629347
really interesting how you spent so much air saying women are allowed things that we aren't and then somehow are unable to come to the conclusion that the reason people hate us is the original sin of being male, because we live in a gynocentric society. i guess i can't blame you since every fiber of your disorder is telling you to not accept that women are just tyrants since you wanna be one but like its so exhausting being forced to pretend that foids arent a bunch of mini hitlers with a terrifying level of social power.

>>44629378
let's try to keep the baseless incel-isms to a low roar, please

>>44629434
man we really skipped straight to the point saying im worthless because no pussy huh

>>44629347
Gigatrvke

>>44629443
you parrot incel talking points and I'll call you an incel. just like if I saw a black person in the streets and called them a slur and attacked them you'd call me racist. same exact thing.

>>44629459
if you called a black person a slur and attacked them i'd call you a hero actually

>>44629466
thanks for following through on my joke setup I smiled

>>44627830
I agree with this

while I agree that it shouldn't matter it skeeves me the fuck out to have my motivation for transition to be secretly considered illegitimate by every cis person I meet

>>44627830
I don't understand why trans women try to find philosophical superiority over other trans women instead of letting the masses discriminate against the idiots.

That said, you're not wrong.

>>44629434
Incel-ism is core to (some) trans psychology.

>>44627830
i fundamentally think/feel like this but I'm also prone to philosophizing over random shit including gender the way you'd make up trolley problem memes
makes it a bit harder to explain since I can't just say I'm too pragmatic about it

I love how the poltards and GPT bots in this thread are acting like the only way to be a rational and reasonable actor in this context is to completely surrender the entire debate to the people who want to destroy us.

>>44629347
>structurally recognized as woman

already the case at least legally in most first world countries. anything beyond that and you have to earn it.

if they refuse to get srs, did they transition?

>>44628257
>has tits
>doesn't want to sui
you're fine

>>44627830
There is nothing to prove. Just BEE URSELFS

>>44632131
They're definitely already breasts, but they're small and easily hidden. They pretty much only make my huge ribcage look huger. Plus, I also never wanted to kms more ever since having them, but I doubt they're the core issue. I can't tell if they're an issue to me or not

>>44627830
Beautifully put.

>>44627830
Thank you. Im a mtf tranny but i recognize that im not a woman. And never will be. I have a fucked up brain. Being fem makes me feel more comfortable, but at the end of the day im not a woman

>>44627830
This was the dominant position of most millennial trans women until Gen Z came of age to be more vocal in the culture. Gen X trannies were more strictly TWAW, then millennials got more postmodern with it and you got terms like 'genderqueer' in the second half of the 00s, she/her twinks, artists like SOPHIE and Arca ID'ing as non-binary transexuals and so on, then Gen Z puritanism happened in the second half of the 2010s and due to the ignorance of history/sociology from the shitty education-sphere and junk information ocean they were brought up in + representation among them being made up mostly of their most sheltered middle-class individuals, the activism quickly lapsed back into self-ID, TWAW, and being extra defensive about social abstract stuff, as a poorly-thought-out coping strategy for the increasing harshness of the world. It's no good. We need more millennials - including a working-class, Gregg Araki-esque core to show the diversity of experience and opinion on this stuff to normies - to wrest control from the zoomer, attention-economy, overly nitpicky and granular social justice brained trans rep of today. The kids are trying to apply an absolute narrative and moral sense to a random and chaotic reality because they haven't chowed down on Camus and Mishima and shit like we did when we were their age and it's making some normies who would otherwise be more undecided about us understandably fed up with them. Of course the technofeudal theocratic right is the bigger factor but the community are not mounting an adequate cultural defense atm.

>>44635422
btw obviously I'm describing the broad trends, there were always exceptions to these broad strokes in each wave of trannies

>>44627830
I used to be like you and fundamentally I still agree with you, but nowadays it really knaws at me a lot.

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>>44627830
>true (tm) woman
There is no such thing outside of the minds of deranged platonists

I agree OP

It's an abstract question that's maybe an interesting thought exercise but ultimately doesn't matter much, and in the context in which it does matter (the way in which other people intuitively mentally categorize people on a gut level while interacting with them), it's not really meaningful because you cannot force or even convince somebody to change anyways, someone seeing you on the street and putting you in the "man" or "woman" box happens in the subconscious lizard part of their brain.

At best you can socially condition and educate people that the polite and equitable thing to do is to respect people's chosen identity and their pronouns and to permit them into the social spaces that entails (and maybe get their lizard subconscious to invent a "trans" box) but someone can do all those things and even agree that doing those things is just and fair, and still not actually perceive some or most trans women as women in their gut subconscious or on some deeper abstract conceptual level

As >>44627967 says, if you really care about being seen as a "real woman", then the closest thing to that that is possible is to just pass as much as you can, as depressing as that may be.

>>44628510
I'd say pragmatic rather then materialist

>>44629378
>>44629434
Saying that we live in a gynocentric society is just as reductive as saying that men (+ people perceived as men) don't face systemic challenges. Yes, women are given more sympathy, have their actions filtered through a more charitable lenses, etc, and get a lot of institutional advantages through DEI. But women also do face real sexist barriers, discrimination etc, and for as much as I dislike how it is named and other ways it gets discussed and framed, patriarchy does favor men (or at least specific types of men) above women within many of the top social spheres of society, even if most men don't see those benefits and, like women, merely situationally are helped or hurt gendered norms/expectations

>>44628257
>>44632131
>>44632234
what if I already have tits from gynecomastia, and I don't think I like them and certainly don't want them bigger, but I like the idea of having feminine body proportions otherwise?

>>44627830
OP I just want to say I love this thread, thanks for creating it.

>>44627830
I feel similarly in many ways. I'm a stealth FTM, and in virtually every aspect of my life I live as a 'man'. Even then, that word is somewhat meaningless when you think about it. What it really communicates is I live a life where others perceive me as a human with male sex organs. Nobody can ever agree on what gender means.
I transitioned so I could develop physical characteristics typical of males and alleviate dysphoria, not to meet some vague ideal of what a 'man' is. Am I a woman deep down? Do my chromosomes make me a female forever? Am I fembrained because of (x)? I don't particularly care either way, because I can look down and see the body I wanted.

Are we seriously pretending ITT that this is a new or novel position? Zoomers are frighteningly uneducated on our own history.

>>44635567
>just pass as much as you can
I like your takes, but what if I'm a genuine neverpasser?

>>44636023
Is it really our fault tho, considering the horrible state of education in general and the horrid impact of social media and such during our formative years?
Life may be materially better now, but nothing feels real or tangible anymore

>>44636109
Not really you guys' fault, I try to help where I can but I do wish more of you would realise the situation & do more learning off your own backs like I did growing up reading encyclopedias, old philosophy and history books and learning about the historiographical process so that even if I don't know all the names and dates of a particular area of history, I've learned enough of the patterns of history and human nature to read a situation or an argument or anything better than if I didn't have an awareness of these things. You don't need to wait for someone to hand it down to you.

>Life may be materially better now, but nothing feels real or tangible anymore
Probably why Nowhere by Gregg Araki is seeing a resurgence in popularity among zoomers

>>44627830
trvke

>>44636433
>Gregg Araki
northernlion branching into zoomer audience

>>44636433
thanks for the movie rec

>>44627830
I mean
I address troons as she/her males so

i dunno what I'm supposed to do about that, like I get they want "femme" treatment or whatever but I just can't manage it wholly

>>44629347
>trans women deserve dignity and that dignity is only available when we are structurally and linguistically recognized as women
Fallacious.
No one deserves anything just because they want it.

>>44631562
from what?
an outer gock tranny to an inner gock tranny?

>>44636743
Everyone deserve humans rights

>>44636023
is there a book or historical figure who said this or are you just making fun of people for no reason

i do agree with the philosophical read of what you are saying

i think TWAW could be important in as much as most of the material ways we are harmed can be understood as violent misogyny that is obfuscated and excused by degendering us. stripping us of our womanhood is sort of the root of the narrative that leads to our marginalisation. i think there is a world where we are in a very tangible way better off if we are understood as experiencing womanhood that has nothing to do with validation.

i'm not sure this is what current era TWAW messaging achieves but i think conceptually thats the only thing i'd disagree with you on. i don't care if we are women in an abstract essential way, but i think it is important for people to understand we experience womanhood in a material and social way. even 'a sort of womanhood' would be enough like i don't think its important we're understood as the same as cis women. but imagining us as unwomen, third sex freaks, does harm us

>>44636809
misogyny doesn't realy exist anymore misandry is king now

>>44636834
i'm sorry i don't think this is based in any sort of well thought out analysis, this is a conclusion you arrive at by spending too much time on image boards

are you even really trans if you dont care if other people think of you (and thus actually treat you) like a woman? it would be fine if you could actually just change your sex and people were somehow backwards and still called you a guy but you cant really
so if you're male, and people think of you as a male, then it's like you haven't really transitioned at all
obviously you cant make someone change their opinion on what you are, but if you really don't care you might as well just detrans socially at least lmao

>>44636847
So true

>>44636854
also just wanted to add that manmoders really live like this and they are pretty fucking miserable

>>44636847
no

>>44635604
you can just chop em off if you don't like em

>>44636854
>are you even really trans if you dont care if other people think of you (and thus actually treat you) like a woman?

I'm not sure I am trans, and what you say here is part of why I'm uncertain, but no, I personally don't really care about being seen as a woman by other people, I just want a feminine build and a androgynous face because I find it desirable in terms of aesthetic appeal and for self expression

>>44637221
Yeah but should I do that before or after HRT? If after, how long after? Are there special concerns with getting them removed in terms of how they need to do the surgery or the chance of it healing right if I will/did take HRT?

I'd also, you know, prefer not to pay 5k-10k and to get operated on if I can avoid it

>>44627830
if every transgender thought like this and wasn't a complete hysterical crying kulturterror retard, progress would actually be made.

>>44636785
It's literally just a common position among lots of trans women already if you're not <25 and has been since like 2015

>>44638731
so the latter

>>44627989
>>44627830
It really comes down to people being stupid. Literally too low IQ to contend with nuance and not aware enough to grapple with difficult questions.

Most people just want to be good and right without doing any hard work on themselves or thinking too hard, so they look outward at the political "arena/circus" and pick whichever side sounds correct. It's instinctual to want to be tribal and xenophobic, so people easily fall prey to the "us vs. them" mentality. They draw a line in the sand, get themselves on the right side of history, etc.

"Trans Women Are Women" isn't a fact that's up for debate or proof. It's a warcry.

This is why so many trans people will jump to "omg you're trying to erase trans people!" whenever they're challenged. They've decided that their tribe is set, their beliefs are correct and set in stone, they've worked themselves into a cozy social status, and how dare you question them as a person. There's no debate or discussion of facts and complex topics, it's literally all about themselves and their standing.

I hate the idea that the vast majority of people are flat-out incapable of deeper levels of thought.

90iq here, that's a lot of words for a lie, you say you don't care but u do because ur scared which makes u xtra gay (not in the gay way but the stupid way but also gay too) thats just meta repping 2 cope with being scared+gay

You are retarded and a gay at the same time