>>44963745
stop worshipping females

>>44963918
Why? I’d be upset if I were a cis woman and a bunch of trans women were like "we’re the same as you actually! Completely the same!" Idk even from a trans perspective it’s embarrassing and shameful behavior

They probably feel like they’re being mocked or misrepresented, which is kinda true

>>44963918
women deserve my repentance because i am an afront to what they.

t. not op

>>44963961
>I’d be upset if I were a cis woman
why? statistically, most aren't. why do you think fags have their hags? gnc amabs are inherently less threatening to women bc we don't adhere to venomous patriarchal standards. cis women are frequently totally fine with gay men in drag using the women's, bc it's safer for them (the drag queens). at least, this is my experience, in a marginally sane part of the united states, where queer people have strong legal protections

>>44963745
>>44963967
I would probably just, like, run. If she is faster, which she probably is because I am unathletic, I'd try to get the knife away from her. If I fail to do that, I am just going to try to punch, kick, and scratch because I'm not going down without a fight.

I would then probably die because I am an unathletic 5'5 trans woman. Then she would go to prison because, although trans people are treated poorly, not so poorly that you can get out of jail time for stabbing us for no reason.

If I survive, I would remind myself that she is just a crazy person, and that it's actually incredibly rare for women to try to randomly stab us.

>>44964000
Did you read the reply or…

I don’t think women have a problem with fem males possibly assaulting them (it’s obvi still a fear somewhere) but they definitely feel like their culture is being appropriated and run through the mud a bit

>>44964077
Why even run? It’s a good way to die especially in the arms of a cis woman

Id probably feel at peace desu

>>44964078
>they definitely feel like their culture is being appropriated and run through the mud a bit
cis women are statistically the most supportive group of trans women. why do i even bother talking to you illiterates? fuck off and suffer

>>44964078
Cis women have been stealing chunks of gay men's, trans women's, and trans men's culture for decades, they have no leg to stand on here.

>>44964108
The culture they’re "stealing" is just different versions of femininity in amab wrapping

>>44964101
Most supportive doesn’t mean they don’t feel a type of way about it

>>44963961
>>44964078
Depends on the camp you talk to but broadly the argument about femininity/womanhood boils down all the ways it sucks and what men can do to them, with a smaller subset putting more emphasis on growing up female. It'd be like if we based masculinity on getting kicked in the balls and going bald. I'll concede though that it's rough being a woman, and the experience of growing up into one isn't something trans women can have experience with. At the same time though cis women don't have the same experiences as trans women so I prefer to think of it as taking different paths to the same destination.

t. FTM repper

>>44963745
agp rapehon thread #241

>>44964096
I uh. I don't want to die? Why would I want to die? I have been happily existing as a woman for like a decade now. Why would I want to die?

I assumed she was stabbing me because I am trans in my last reply, but like... No one has clocked me in forever. Maybe she is just crazy? Is it possible this is after I told her I was trans for some reason?

I kinda doubt I was unlucky enough to run into the world's sloppiest first-time serial killer, so it can't be that. I guess she may have pretended to be a friend and lured me somewhere?

Realistically, if this actually happened while I am out in public, one of my stronger cis women friends would probably get her off me, but I was assuming I was caught alone.

There are actually a lot of factors to consider in this scenario.

>>44964140
The female experience mostly sucks because of males around them

Ofc cis women don’t have the same experiences as trans women they actually have the full female experience and didn’t have to deal with any male socialization and the mental illnesses that come with it

Also stop repping

>>44964196
Jesus Christ just let it happen. What’s the problem? A cis woman comes up to you and stabs you to death, and you let her do it. Very simple!

>>44964140
> I'll concede, though, that it's rough being a woman
Yeah, it is.
t. MtF who has been out as a woman for a decade.
> and the experience of growing up into one isn't something trans women can have experience with
And which experiences precisely would those be? I ask because the experiences people often claim are not nearly as rare amongst trans women as people think.
> At the same time though cis women don't have the same experiences as trans women, so I prefer to think of it as taking different paths to the same destination.
Maybe don't generalize socialization in such a simplified-to-the-point-of-meaninglessness way?
> FTM
Oh. Well, I am glad a man is here to explain my experiences to me. Thank you.
> repper
This reply makes sense now. Your experience with being a post-transition trans person is fairly limited.

This is why teachers tell us to read the whole assignment before we start answering, isn't it?

>>44964229
> Jesus Christ just let it happen. What’s the problem? A cis woman comes up to you and stabs you to death, and you let her do it. Very simple!
See, it's the injury and death part I have an issue with. I'm just not really on board with it. Maybe workshop that part a bit and get back to me :)

>>44964265
>And which experiences precisely would those be?
Aside from the usual shit? Image policing, the overt emphasis on your purity, the double standard of adult women pressuring you about your body, being socially devalued because there's nothing people hate more than a teenage girl. There are a few, and to my knowledge they're not really shared by trans women, based on talking to a handful.

Note that I said they're not shared, not that either is inherently more valid. This is important.

>Oh. Well, I am glad a man is here to explain my experiences to me. Thank you.
>Your experience with being a post-transition trans person is fairly limited.
Yes but I've also navigated the world as a woman for 26 years so I have a little bit of insight into what that's like.

>>44964450
No, not aside from the usual shit. Give me everything at once. I would like to know
> Image policing
Do you really think my mom didn't start bothering me about my neckline when I transitioned? And my mother-in-law too, at that.

And let's not even start on my mom trying to convince me that not being into pink is actually "internalized misogyny".
> The overt emphasis on your purity
Admittedly, I got that mostly from the media, less so personally. Still, a pretty significant amount of purity culture is part of media impact.
> double standard of adult women pressuring you about your body
Are you actively trying to softball me here? This is just an experience trans women rapidly get bombarded with later in life. Welcome to womanhood!
> being socially devalued because there's nothing people hate more than a teenage girl
Yeah, I'll grant you that one. I didn't transition quite early enough for that. Trans women generally get devalued as adults, but it's got to be pretty damaging as a child. Having said that, transition is an incredibly vulnerable time, but as I said, yeah, this one is fair.
It's also somewhat country and region-specific.
> There are a few, and to my knowledge, they're not really shared by trans women, based on talking to a handful.
Fair, but that has not been my experience. I would like to know more about what you think is so fundamentally different, though.

>Yes, but I've also navigated the world as a woman for 26 years, so I have a little bit of insight into what that's like.
Sure. But not experiencing the rapid change in treatment and what the differences actually are makes you poorly equipped to talk about trans experiences in general. I strongly recommend keeping in mind that a lot of the experiences of the differences give you a notable understanding. I would also recommend considering those experiences within the context of multiple oppression and times of learning and vulnerability.

Part 1/2

>>44964450
>>44964956
> Not that either is inherently more valid
Valid is kinda a vacuous word. Like, what do you actually mean by it here?

Part 2/2

>>44964450
>policing, the overt emphasis on your purity
it's something lgbt people have to deal with since childhood too, even if in a different from. to be queer and to be somehow accepted you must be nearly perfect, innocent, pure and mentally healthy or your rights are questioned. lookism also play a role, especially for transsexuals. the purity part exists because society sees homosexuality and transsexuality as something much much less innocent and much much less natural than being cishet
>the double standard of adult women pressuring you about your body
boys are also pressured about the stupidiest shit, and i saw that personally regularly, it's not female exclusive experience, even if your example is rooted in misogyny. actually a trans woman has to face much more extreme standarts, because she's again queer, and because her female status is constantly questioned, which is something will never ever happen to a cis woman, or a cissexual person in general (i'm not talking about intersex)
> there's nothing people hate more than a teenage girl
are you fr?

i give you 3-5 years you will fully become a TERF

t. also a ftm repper

>>44964956
>No, not aside from the usual shit. Give me everything at once. I would like to know
It's the biological shit. Different puberty, different reactions to that puberty, both internal and external. There is some overlap (e.g. "you're a man/woman now because X biology) but for females there is the added caveat of menstruation and the risk/concept of pregnancy, which permeates your entire existence, whether you want it to or not.

>Image policing
I'm more referring to forced modesty by the people closest to you. A wrench gets thrown into the mix because of media. It's essentially, "sexuality is elevated, but not for you. You can't be that. You're our little girl."

>This is just an experience trans women rapidly get bombarded with later in life.
And girls get bombarded with it earlier. That's not irrelevant. I can't speak for the AMAB experience but my own mother would talk candidly with other women about how my tits were growing, while I was in the room. Very uncomfortable.

>I would like to know more about what you think is so fundamentally different, though.
Ultimately it can be boiled down to a lot of my upbringing being colored by being born female. I don't know what it's like to grow up male, so I would guess that the inverse applies.

>>44964983
A huge part of the argument that I can see is that trans women have a lesser/skewed/invalidated outlook on what womanhood is because they did not experience growing up as a female, and that is used to downplay those experiences. I'm saying that I disagree with that. Different does not mean inferior.

>>44965111
I'm >>44964956
But I gave him
> There's nothing people hate more than a teenage girl
Because I didn't want to argue about universalizing from a limited scope, I just added that it's also somewhat country and region-specific.

This is because I have a complex experience with this. On one hand, when I told my mom in my home country at 6 that I wished to be a girl. She kinda started arguing that being a boy was just better, which I feel sort of agrees with the argument. But on the other hand, queer youth are treated extremely badly there too.

On the other hand, when I moved to the US, I lived in a really progressive city. Some of my girlfriends did feel they were devalued, but already one of them felt like her gay uncle was way more devalued and disrespected than she was. The place I lived in was also kinda complicated; most of the girls in my friend group in middle school were gay or bi, and no one cared.

But then I would hear people talk about how girls didn't get to explore their queerness when young, and yeah, that's probably true somewhere else too! Because society isn't just one place; it's a patchwork.

I fully believe him when he said that teenage girls are the most hated, because that likely is his lived experience, and to a limited degree, mine.

But again, scope matters, and I would like to see what other experiences he has to share so I can see if they are relatable or not! I love hearing these because my experience being in a poor-shifting-to-middle-class white immigrant family with a complex background, a rapidly changing family culture, and having mostly middle-class friends but living with mostly non-white people in my neighborhood has given me a pretty cool multicultural perspective on all this.

As has my work in sociology.

>>44965111
>it's something lgbt people have to deal with since childhood too, even if in a different from.
Honestly that's fair. I'll give you that one.

>boys are also pressured about the stupidiest shit
Outside looking in it's because they're pressured to be strong stoic men, and expressing anything outside of that tiny box is gay.

>even if your example is rooted in misogyny.
Yes, but not for the reason you think. The environment I grew up in was very male dominated with rigid expectations based on gender. My parents are evangelicals.

>are you fr?
Did...people not shit on you and your interests?

>i give you 3-5 years you will fully become a TERF
I don't think that pointing out differences in lived experience from birth through adolescence at least is particularly terf-y.

Women are evil manipulative monsters that hurt and abuse kids for fun and the delusion that they are pure or noble is the biggest lie ever told

>>44965181
> It's the biological shit
See, this is a big part of where a lack of transition experience fails you. There is a reason trans people call transition second puberty: it affects biology in a huge number of complex ways.
> but for females, there is the added caveat of menstruation and the risk/concept of pregnancy, which permeates your entire existence, whether you want it to or not.
Totally fair, but I would like to note that I know a cis woman who didn't have that experience. Like, no periods, can't give birth, not intersex in any known way. This is one of those situations where generalizing and building the concept of a monolithic gendered socialization inevitably leaves people out on the margins.

> I'm more referring to forced modesty by the people closest to you. A wrench gets thrown into the mix because of media. It's essentially, "sexuality is elevated, but not for you. You can't be that. You're our little girl."
I thought we went over that with
>> Do you really think my mom didn't start bothering me about my neckline when I transitioned?
>And girls get bombarded with it earlier. That's not irrelevant. I can't speak for the AMAB experience but my own mother would talk candidly with other women about how my tits were growing, while I was in the room. Very uncomfortable.
I... Do agree. It is uncomfortable. From experiance.
And no, in this case the age of the experiance does not change the experiance. If you think the vulnerability of puberty goes away after you go through it once, you are mistaken. Cis people just think they can talk about our bodies intimitely without concern for us as people.
>Ultimately it can be boiled down to a lot of my upbringing being colored by being born female. I don't know what it's like to grow up male, so I would guess that the inverse applies.
Well, I guess that makes it ok for you to assume other people's experiences then./sarcasm

>theres nothing in the world people hate more than a teenage girl
I remember being 14 in a concentration camp in a foreign country trying to pull rusty stakes out of my knees and legs because I told the wrong person I wish I was a girl
I remember being forced to stay awake for days and weeks doing hard labor while being beaten until I would black out for days on end because I was found wearing a dress
I remember at 16 living in a dumpster because homeless shelters dont take faggots, only girls, digging through garbage cans to try and clothes for the winter
I remember being shaved bald at 13 while chained to a wall and being told I would be sent to the front lines of war to man me up because I wanted to grow my hair out and kiss boys
I remember begging the women to stop hurting me like when I was 8 and my teachers would make me strip naked outside and encourage the boys to gang up and beat the shit out of me
I remember when I was 12 and asked some girls for help with makeup they called the police and told them I tried to rape them
I remember when I was 17 and trying to stitch my stab wounds from a woman because hospitals would tell me to fuck off and die because man

>>44965402
Jesus. Ok, I am taking back giving OP the most hated thing.

Obviously you, and literally no one else, win the "most hated person" award. I am sorry for all you had to deal with.

But yeah, the world really hates a lot of people.

>>44965263
You sure you didn't overestimate on that 3-5 years?

>>44965430
You are completely wrong and it was insane to even say it in the first place.

There is nothing in the world more adored than a teenage girl. There is nothing in the world more hated than men who don't want to be men.

You know silently in the back of your mind when the gas chambers start that only gay men and mtfs will be in them but will say that real women are the real victims

>>44965366
>See, this is a big part of where a lack of transition experience fails you.
I'll give you that. I wish I were the type of person that COULD just transition but I'm a coward.

>And no, in this case the age of the experiance does not change the experiance.
I...don't know if I agree with that. Total anecdote but I hit puberty before I left elementary school. It was probably some kind of damaging to hear that kind of shit at the ripe age of 9.

>Cis people just think they can talk about our bodies intimitely without concern for us as people.
That I didn't think about. You're right.

>Well, I guess that makes it ok for you to assume other people's experiences then.
It's more inference? If I'm wrong I'm wrong, I'm just drawing on what I lived through to try to suss out WHY these women think that way.

>>44965404
That is a pretty huge leap.

>>44965263
>Did...people not shit on you and your interests?
people mostly find teenage girls "cringe", "annoying" and may laugh at them, if not taking extreme cases. in teenage years people would just laugh at me at most and that's it. it's rooted in misogynistic idea that women are unserious and everything they do doesn't matter, though

but i still believe you can't compare it to being a dyke/faggot/tranny, and i'll say the societal view on homosexuality/bisexuality has traumatized me much more than being a woman, although i'm talking only about myself. being a teenage girl may had me feeling cringe, but being attracted to women had me feeling like a creep, an ill scum, and even a rapist (i thought finding real girls i knew sexually attractive was the same as hurting them)

being a teenage girl is bad, but it's ordinary, nothing special. to be gay/tranny is to be something that shouldn't exist in the first place

It could never be more evident what trannyism has become. A self-hating movement for suicidal anorexic body insecure people who hate themselves for being gay men. Get over yourself and learn that you aren't a woman, just an estrogenized male. Be proud of your Faustian Spirit and your male strength and intellectualism.

>>44965685
Yeah that makes sense. I probably had an extreme case, then. There was essentially a list of what was and was not okay to be interested in and deviating from that was grounds for ridicule and discipline in more extreme cases. That was just at home, though.

I wish I had the wherewithal to realize that I liked girls earlier, though. I remembered being terrified that I might accidentally become gay.

>>44965578
> You are completely wrong, and it was insane to even say it in the first place.
See, I disagree with the rest of your reply, but I do agree that it was insane of me to say it in a world where hate is so varied.
> There is nothing in the world more adored than a teenage girl.
No. If "adored" at all, they are adored as an object is adored, not in the way a person is. And it's usually not good for teenage girls.
> There is nothing in the world more hated than men who don't want to be men.
See, that's also very socioculturally conditional. I am sure that may be your experience, but there are groups more hated than trans and gay people, too.
> You know silently in the back of your mind when the gas chambers start that only gay men and MTFs will be in them
If you mean for queer people, I can't know the future, but yes, that is how it went last time. The Nazis treated trans women and gay men with execution, while trans men had a mixed bag of experiences. They ranged from horrific to, in one case, being allowed to get his transvestic certificate renewed through a confusing patchwork of laws.

But history does not repeat; it merely rhymes. We don't know what this would be like. And remember, the worst that trans men had to deal with was still horrifying.

And, as you may remember, trans and gay people were far from the only people the Nazis slaughtered.
> But I will say that real women are the real victims
I can't speak to that. Most people don't remember the trans men and lesbian victims of the Holocaust either.

>>44965680
I have complicated feelings about the limitations of our knowledge about the effects of age vulnerability, brain decvelopmenr, and other vulnerabilities on our experiences.

I am willing to admit that the age of an experience may or may not matter, especially when taken in combination with the unknown effects of many other factors on human neurology. I am not enough of an expert to say.

My work was mostly sociology and cognitive science-based, and if an answer exists, I don't have it. Our understanding of the human brain, especially in trans people, is incredibly limited. Sorry.

But I am glad we could come to some level of understanding. Also, I want to take a moment to acknowledge that there can be an average difference without there being a universal difference.

There are a lot of other binary gender socialization myths that bother me.

One example that really bothers me is when people treat the perentified oldest daughter archetype as a universal, and one that never happens to an AMAB person. My life matches the perentified oldest daughter story to a T from when I was left alone to watch my brother regularly when I was 3, and had to regulate with the brunt of my parents erratic emotions (until my father left completely)

My goal here isn't to say "all trans women have all the same experiences as all cis women", my goal is to get across that the entire concept of monolithic binary socialization is based on a false premise.

It's a hyper simplification of the concept of socialization that has been simplified to the point of being a catchphrase.
>>44965749
> I wish I had the wherewithal to realize that I liked girls earlier, though. I remembered being terrified that I might accidentally become gay.
I wish you could have grown up in the area in the US I moved to after leaving my home country. Most of the girls in my middleschool friend group were saphic to some degree. I think you would have liked it.

>>44965680
Oh, to add (I'm >>44966293 )
> If I'm wrong, I'm wrong; I'm just drawing on what I lived through to try to suss out WHY these women think that way.
I don't know how many women actually do think that way, but I think you are probably right about why they think that way.

Part of it is, I think it's all a result of how humans create categories and take mental shortcuts. It's not that they are not smart; analyzing the depth and breadth of human experience is a life's work in itself.

I think it's that we as a population tend to put too much faith in generalizing our own individual experiences to the rest of humanity, and in simplified catchphrases.

>>44965734
I agree, trans men need to learn that they will never be women and are just estrogenized males.