>Xenophon, Memorabilia, 3.12.1–8>Socrates dunks on Epigenes because he is out of shapeDamn, /fit/ was right all along. Will post the whole thing in the next post[1] On seeing that Epigenes, one of his companions, was in poor bodily condition for a young man, he said: "You look as if you need exercise, Epigenes.""Well, Socrates," he replied, "I am not an athlete.""You are no less an athlete," said Socrates, "than those who are training for the Olympic games. Or do you think that the life-and-death struggle with our enemies, which the Athenians will enter upon whenever it may happen, is a light matter?"[2] "Why, many, thanks to their bad bodily condition, lose their lives in the perils of war or save them disgracefully; many on this same account are taken prisoners, and as slaves pass the rest of their days in the most cruel hardship, or fall into such miserable straits that they pay for their ransom more than they possess, and sometimes pass the rest of their lives in want and misery; many, too, gain an evil reputation because they are thought to be cowards owing to their weakness of body."[3] "Do you think lightly of these penalties of a bad bodily condition, or do you expect that you could easily endure such troubles? And yet I think that what he who keeps his body in good condition has to endure is far lighter and more pleasant than these things. Or do you believe that a bad condition of body is more healthy and generally more useful than a good one, or do you despise the effects of a good condition?"[4] "And yet the results of being in good condition are the very opposite of those which follow from being in a bad condition; for those who are in good condition are healthy and strong, and many by this means save themselves creditably from the perils of war and escape all dangers; many, too, bring aid to their friends and do good to their country, and on this account win gratitude, obtain great glory, and receive the highest honors, and pass the rest of their lives more pleasantly and honorably, and leave to their children better means of livelihood."
[5] "Because the city does not publicly train for war, you must not on that account neglect it in private, but rather attend to it all the more. For be well assured that neither in any other contest nor in any action whatsoever will you be at a disadvantage because you have trained your body; for in everything that men do the body is useful, and in all uses of the body it is of great importance to be in the highest state of efficiency."[6] "For even in that wherein you think there is least use for the body, namely, in thinking, who does not know that many fall into great errors because their bodies are not healthy? And loss of memory, and low spirits, and peevishness, and madness often invade the minds of many because of their bad bodily condition, so violently as even to drive out their knowledge."[7] "But those who have their bodies in good condition have great security, and there is no danger of their suffering any such calamity because of bad bodily condition; rather, it is natural that a good condition should produce the very opposite of the things which follow from a bad condition. And indeed, what would a man in his senses not endure to obtain the opposite of the things mentioned?"[8] "And besides, it is a disgrace to grow old through sheer carelessness before seeing what manner of man you may become by developing your bodily strength and beauty to their highest limit. But you cannot see that, if you are careless; for it will not come of its own accord."
If you had read Plato instead of random bullshit like Xenophon you would have been well aware of this, it comes up in several dialogues. Aristotle also shares an anecdote somewhere about how anyone passing through Sparta had to strip to show off their physique and if they refused the border guards would force them
This is key>For in everything that men do the body is useful, and in all uses of the body it is of great importance to be in the highest state of efficiency.">"For even in that wherein you think there is least use for the body, namely, in thinking, who does not know that many fall into great errors because their bodies are not healthy? And loss of memory, and low spirits, and peevishness, and madness often invade the minds of many because of their bad bodily condition, so violently as even to drive out their knowledge."Id also like to mention that Neetche completely missed this. What a Fraud, all his sperging out about Socrates/Plato being too much in the clouds he was a sickly incel.
>>25291397>Id also like to mention that Neetche completely missed this. What a Fraud, all his sperging out about Socrates/Plato being too much in the clouds he was a sickly incel.You're retarded, Nietzsche embraced being sick because he had no other choice.
>>25291383How is Xenophon "random bullshit". Gtfo
>>25291399He was a resentful git projecting resentment.
>>25291397>Id also like to mention that Neetche completely missed this.Nietzsche literally said that you should not trust any thought which came to you indoors. He was an avid hiker and indirectly promoted physical activity many times in his books.
>>25291371>/fit/I wish you people would get a room
>>25291383You just know
>>25291812That was my point.
>>25292547He has a congenitive neurogenerative disorder, what could have he possibly done about it? You're not one of those retards who think he has syphylis, are you?
Xenophon Socrates > Plato Socrates.Xenophon wrote an actually charming and witty person, Plato wrote a robot who spergs out in every conversation who would have deserved to be killed. Philosophers who give Xenophon no credit and say his portrayal of Socrates are just asshurt because they don't have taste and can't consume any classics which aren't philosophy.
>>25292849Xenophon was a very pragmatic guy, while Plato was gay life-denying larper.
>>25292799He didn't do his homework on Socrates or Plato, both were pro life and vigour as a base layer, both were athletic warrior Chads.>>25292849Memorabilia is just history IIRC, Plato's Socrates is compromised
>>25292849Xenophon's Socrates always struck me as more vulgar. Not in a bad way, but he's much more rogueish and impish, and closer to Aristophanes' depiction. OP's posts are a point in that direction, since the advice is from a man who lacks a reputation for keeping physically fit (fighting in war is no point in his favor, since he was drafted), and whose compadres regularly are taken to be sickly in condition.
>>25291371Dunking is nigger coded
>>25293119>since the advice is from a man who lacks a reputation for keeping physically fitYou are insane, he fought 3 wars as a pro hoplite and was heralded for his physical prowess. He even resisted the elements better than the rest due to his fitness and was always in the gym.
>>25291371Yes, the Greeks valued exercise. But one of Socrates' main theses is that vice is due to ignorance. It's disturbing how you pseuds remember the passages that support your bland, looksmaxx + racism, zoomie worldview and don't understand or outright ignore the ones that don't. I am not fat btw. But I also don't go to the gym because I don't give a shit. One of the great things about being a man is that it doesn't matter all that much what you look like.
>>25293186It's about health and mental clarity, not about muh looks.
>>25293244You guys don't seem very mentally clear to me. I notice you get hung up on analogies as if you think they are direct equations. This is characteristic of pre-literate peoples and yet I see it every day in zoomies on /lit/.
>>25293179Three *battles*, not wars, and they were all defeats, and he's praised not for his physical prowess but for having an intimidating look *in retreat*. Nowhere is it said that he resisted the elements better because of his physique, he resisted it because what he was thinking about was more important than what he felt, and he was always in the gym...so he could talk to youths. Xenophon's own depiction of Spcrates doesn't deny that he's physically shabby, *his Socrates even makes fun of himself for this in Xenophon's Symposium*.
>>25293369>"His endurance was simply marvelous... when we were cut off from our supplies, as often happens in war, nobody else came near him. And his fortitude in enduring the winter cold was extraordinary. The winter there is something terrible, but he went out in nothing but the ordinary cloak he always wore, and walked barefoot over the ice more easily than the others did in their boots."— Plato, Symposium, 220a–b>"I observed him... stalking like a pelican and rolling his eyes, calmly contemplating both enemies and friends, making it quite plain to everyone, even from afar, that if anyone touched this man, he would put up a magnificent defense. And so he and his companion escaped untouched."— Plato, Symposium, 221b>Socrates fought in three major, bloody campaigns during the Peloponnesian War: Potidaea, Delium, and Amphipolis. He did this not in his twenties, but in his forties and early fifties as a professional Hoplite.He mogs 99% of modern people.
>>25293402The first excerpt remains within my point, he's patient/temperate/in self-control, which has nothing to do with physical fitness per se. Second excerpt again has nothing to do with physical fitness, he's side-eyeing everyone in retreat which is what gets everyone's attention, and which is why that detail is underlined and not physical fitness. Third excerpt is irrelevant, he's drafted three times, not volunteering to go out, and you can see how much he cared for those occasions in the opening of Plato's Charmides which starts with him returning from Potidaea and only giving a shit about how philosophy was faring in his absence.
>>25293423To be a hoplite, you had to march dozens of miles carrying roughly 50 to 60 pounds of bronze armor and weapons, and then engage in brutal, hand-to-hand shield-pushing combat. He did this in his 40s and 50s. Stop your retarded contrarianism.
>>25293490Contrarianism? Dude, not every hoplite was *trained* in any extensive way. These are *Athenian* hoplites, chosen by lot from citizens in a democracy. They're not exactly up to snuff against the Spartioi. All three battles he was in were losses, where he's praised for *how he retreated*. You also have a skewed perspective of ancient war itself, where the hand to hand fighting was by and large way less common than we tend to think; do you know how, e.g., the Spartans fought most of the whole war? By marching to Attica and just camping outside and hoping that the Athenians would sally out either due to lack of supplies or needing to shoe them away, then they'd leave before the winter. Look up the battle of Sphacteria to see how few casualties and captures could compel the Spartans to sue for peace. And again, Socrates is not highlighted for physical prowess, just self-control. But here's Socrates in Xenophon's Symposium talking about considering taking up exercise *at old age due to not being physically impressive at all*:>At this everyone laughed. Socrates’ face became very serious, and he said, “Are you laughing at me? Is it because I wish to exercise for better health, or for more pleasure in eating and sleeping, or because I am eager for such exercises—not like the long-distance runners who build up their legs but have scrawny shoulders, nor like the boxers who build up their shoulders but have scrawny legs—but by working every part of my body to create a complete equilibrium? Or are you laughing because it won’t be necessary for me to seek out an exercise partner, or to get undressed in a crowd—I’m an old man—but a house big enough for seven couches will be sufficient for me, just as, even now, this room was sufficient for the boy here to work up a sweat? Is it because in winter I'll exercise inside and in shade when it is scorchingly hot? Or are you laughing at this, that I have a bit of a paunch and wish to make it less?And note that the desire to do something isn't always followed by Xenophon's Socrates; he learns a bunch of advice for how to become a wealthy and respectable gentleman in the Oeconomicus and never followed any of it himself, advice he still gives another young man. He's wilier than you're crediting him for being.
>>25291383>Penis inspection day was real
>>25291383Plutarch says in Sparta young men were obligated strip naked and dance to delight old men who took pride in the fitness of Spartans, which Plutarch praises as a reflection of their austerity and strength
>>25293563Prime Socrates could beat you up
>>25294470Imagine…
>>25293563I don't buy your argument. You are nitpicking just how physically fit he was at the top 1% but don't see the rest of the iceberg.
>>25294697I literally quoted Xenophon himself quoting Socrates. Go back and re-read it. Notice:>At this everyone laughedThis is how a room full of Socrates' friends react to hearing him say he's taking up exercise. They're laughing because this was never a concern of his, and his assertion is coming out of left field. And Socrates himself,>Or are you laughing at this, that I have a bit of a paunch and wish to make it less?None of this shit's nitpicking. Au contraire, you're repeating a lately fashionable but textually illiterate take promulgated by BAP and etc. You're reaching.
>>25295035I don't see how an out of shape person could be a Hoplite in 3 campaigns.And how he could then scold Epigenes about his lack of exercise. Socrates had a full hoplite armour at ages 40-50 and weapons on him. Yeah they were defensive and retreated, so what.Maybe he was just in a down los phase in what you are citing.It is nitpicking.
