no
>>25327642It's true. The above is what people think the below is like and vice versa.
>>25327642>Old lit: cuckoldry, literal cuckoldry in all those authors>Rowling: Chad gets married and has a family, Chad's friends get married and have a family, Chad's rival also gets married and has a family, and they are all happy with their spouseshmmm
tolkienbros...not like this
>>25327642I can't perceive of an ancient realm void of color, it's a deeply vivid era to me. Clean water, fresh air, brightly lit stars, wonder and magic. The loss of color comes from a newer time, our projection, or from a decadent era, or turmoil, such as the Justinian plague. A mother bear protecting its cubs won't go to hell, even if she were mistaken on the level of threat and overreacted. Likewise, free people have always felt strongly, have always acted rashly. This does not make them evil, nor morally grey. It can, at times, make them heartless and cruel, which in turn breeds malice and dysfunction in other places; the next generations. The rise of toxins comes from war and industry, and it has tainted even human genome, culminating in gene editing for narcissistic goals - covid 19 vaccinations. The impediments of clinical framing and narration are not from a few fantasy authors, but overarching monsters of institutions, mind control and evil tribes - I can prove this.As children, many of us survived all manner of ills, but we had our smiles. However, through hostile media and the surge of true evil in our world, this joy has become scarce and distant. Not non-existant. It could be argued that we are reaching a point of division - of rejection and acceptance. Some gets integrated, some gets thrown to the winds for nature to handle. The older times were more free - though of course, Plato wasn't wrong then either, on the limits of human perception. The cave allegory describes human cruelty and control.
Things aren't so clear cut in reality, it isn't good vs evil. Id say that mentality is for childrens stories but even that should be above such simplistic thinking. Tolkein even realized it and kind of regretted it but was too balls deep in the story to suddenly make orcs morally grey
>>25327659The City of Tuna bit is kinda funny imo guys
I cannot believe you rancid retards are replying to this
>>25327673kys
>>25327673I can.
>>25327659why do nerds and manchildren care so much about lore and backstory? they will put up with the shittiest prose and tropes as long as there's a mountain of historical trivia to dig into
>>25327713quote related is about star wars but it applies well to worldbuilding spec fic manchildren>A lot of fans are basically fans of fandom itself. It's all about them. They have mastered the "Star Wars" or "Star Trek" universes or whatever, but their objects of veneration are useful mainly as a backdrop to their own devotion. Anyone who would camp out in a tent on the sidewalk for weeks in order to be first in line for a movie is more into camping on the sidewalk than movies. Extreme fandom may serve as a security blanket for the socially inept, who use its extreme structure as a substitute for social skills. If you are Luke Skywalker and she is Princess Leia, you already know what to say to each other, which is so much safer than having to ad-lib it. Your fannish obsession is your beard. If you know absolutely all the trivia about your cubbyhole of pop culture, it saves you from having to know anything about anything else. That's why it's excruciatingly boring to talk to such people: They're always asking you questions they know the answer to.
>>25327713>>25327731Why are we pretending we aren't on an anime image board?
>>25327659Wasn't Silmarillion a collection of notes?
>>25327733we're not pretending. most anime is part of the problem.
>>25327731>Anyone who would camp out in a tent on the sidewalk for weeks in order to be first in line for a movie is more into camping on the sidewalk than movies.>If you are Luke Skywalker and she is Princess Leia, you already know what to say to each other, which is so much safer than having to ad-lib it.>That's why it's excruciatingly boring to talk to such people: They're always asking you questions they know the answer to.
>>25327733>animeIf only they had the balls to have unique dialogue.
>>25327713these types of "people" were tolerable when they knew their place, when they accepted the fact their hobbies were just expensive, glorified theme parks and action figures. the moment gamers and sci-fi/fantasy fans and anything adjacent started digging up their own asses with verbose youtube commentary essays pretending they had any academic or scholarly rigor and prestige, that was when they needed to get bullied again.
>>25327733>You critique le society and yet
>>25327731Devotion really is the keyword. Like a lot of secularized political movements, fandom is a sort of secular religion, but without any serious beliefs and a bigger focus on indulging in pseudo-worship. Anything they say or do is justified as long as one is "devoted" enough to the story, the lore, etc. They then like to pretend what they're doing is "objective" or "scientific" but it's really only about as valid as a science lab that is only equipped with microscopes and no other tools. Because that's the only thing nerds know how to do: look at increasingly smaller things and use that myopia as bragging rights.
>>25327794Forgot to add that the psychology behind it on an individual level is actually quite basic, simplistic, even kinda boring. It gets more interesting (as well as much more annoying) when it reaches mass movements of fandoms. Why this phenomenon is so popular on collective levels rather than individual levels is the real question here.
>>25327770lol
>>25327659What deep and thoughtful critiques lol
>>25327770I will never understand how such a shallow, hollow, infantilizing medium become so popular with anyone over the age of 14. At least anime gave us anime websites, the only good thing about them.
>>25327903Autism mostly
>>25327733The average /lit/ user would get their ass banned on any other website if they said half the stuff they said here. They are here cause they have no better option, not because some taiwanese scriptwriting hobby site magically produced the best literature discussion on the internet somehow.
>>25327917No, I post what I used to post on twitter here (albeit with more "faggot"). This place is somehow less likely to have emotionally incontinent + stupid people.
>>25327642Why refute this? It's correct
>>25327659
>>25328035I've actually read this, it's extremely unfunny.
>>25327642Refure this *drops trousers, unleashes a torrent of chunky, steaming diarrhea into my palm, then furiously jerks my raw, circumcised nub with the putrid, slimy mess*
>>25327642The Bible is in the top category.
>>25328044Gimlet, son of Groin
>>25327642Homer belong on the bottom. Fuck you retard.
>>25327642Prescriptive vs descriptive philosophy.Prescriptive philosophy is concerned with how people SHOULD act to live an ideal life. Prescriptive philosophy never works IRL because you can't make other people act in accordance to your beliefs and they will use your rules against you.Descriptive philosophy tries to analyze how people DO act and think. It doesn't claim that there is one right way people should behave, only tries to explain their observed behavior
>>25327794>How many angels can dance on a pinpoint
>>25328694
>>25327642There was no 'moral grayness' in Greek literature, saying that they're Evil is just Christians criticizing a different moral system.
>>25327642These two aren’t divided into old and new literature, both have always existed.The only reason you say this is because teo of the biggest fiction stories of the past century happen to have the same idea of good and bad (Rowling not even as black&white as much as Tolkien was), whilst completely ignoring all stories from the past which had objective G&E, and the newer stories with greyer morality
>>25327903The modern state of other mediums is just that grim
>ackshually muh greeksFuck off retards.Having an aspirational hero and condemning the actions of other characters doesn't suggest a binary good vs evil worldview like in LOTR. It's a worldview that can't survive any sincere scrutiny so it never really existed except in societies saturated with propaganda like post-WW2 anglo culture.Satan in the Bible is part of God's court, the adversary and tempter of humans not of God. Hades, Loki etc are all relatively neutral, like natural phenomena even though the hero tends to oppose them.God loves the Behemoth, if you make no effort to avoid getting eaten by it that's all on you. Framing that as divine punishment isn't completely wrong but can easily lead to this naive binary worldview that's so misguided it might even lead to you getting eaten/punished.
>>25330199or in other words?
>>25330224In other words you're an illiterate brainwashed retard.
>>25327642Do you really think that these authors wrote "morally grey" works? Or are you just too retarded to get it?
>>25327642Premodern literature has a much clearer moral vision than modern genre fiction though. Yes, even the tragedies and the stuff with evil heroes. You assume that anything with a bleak tone or featuring bad deeds is "morally grey" because you don't read. These stories all feature a hero who must choose to either accept or reject a certain virtue, and he is then either rewarded or punished according to his choice, and the story often ends with a character explicitly stating something to the effect of "And the moral of the story is that we shouldn't do the bad thing that led to all the bad stuff happening."Something like MacBeth has a much clearer moral vision than something like Harry Potter. MacBeth believes he should sacrifice honor for power and is punished for it. Harry Potter doesn't believe in anything in particular and just sort of reacts to the bad guys until he wins. It's not "morally grey" in the sense that it's unclear who the bad guys are, but the "morality" of the good guys is very vague and undefined, failing to encompass anything less universal or obvious than "you shouldn't kill millions of people for no reason." The morality of Harry Potter, like everything else about it, is grey in the sense of being bland.
>>25327731camping out is the Dark Souls of fandoms
>>25328044you're telling me Havard's greatest comedic minds created something unfunny?
>>25332199>Harry Potter doesn't believe in anything in particular and just sort of reacts to the bad guys until he winsThese stories can be ok if the villains are cool and terrifying, but Voldemort is so fucking lame despite being so overhyped early on. Even in supposedly non YA fantasy like Wheel of Time the big bads are incredibly disappointingMorally grey stories are generally way more interesting because the antagonists are actually allowed to be true threats to not only the protagonists lives but their worldviews, instead of being pinatas who are basically there to reinforce the normie reader's biases
>>25332199The virtues of the hero are usually respected even by the big bad. The opposing force is failure to live up to the virtues instead of actual veneration of evil. Even Death itself tends to value life, it's just acting out its role in the wider picture, to root out decay. The hero also tends to be weak to temptations which creates dramatic tension and makes the adversaries who do succumb to temptation relatable.
>>25327642get that bitch off my mother fucking tolkein
>>25332280I think Book Voldemort is pretty interesting actually. There's something likeable about how self-aware, snarky and cynical he is. The way he jobs at the end is lame though
>>25327672>Túna (Q, pron. [ˈtuːna]) was the green hill in Aman, raised by the Valar within the Calacirya, upon which the Vanyar and the Noldor founded their fair city of Tirion. In the Years of the Trees the light of the Two Trees fell upon its western face and its shadow lay ever to the east, reaching Sardïné and the Sea.
>>25327642why?
>>25332199>Premodern literature has a much clearer moral vision than modern genre fiction though. Yes, even the tragedies and the stuff with evil heroes. You assume that anything with a bleak tone or featuring bad deeds is "morally grey" because you don't read. These stories all feature a hero who must choose to either accept or reject a certain virtue, and he is then either rewarded or punished according to his choice, and the story often ends with a character explicitly stating something to the effect of "And the moral of the story is that we shouldn't do the bad thing that led to all the bad stuff happening."Confirmed for having read any premodern literature
>>25327659"When MANA-YOOD-SUSHAI had made the gods and Skarl, Skarl made a drum, and began to beat upon it that he might drum for ever." ... HOW DOES HE COME UP WITH THIS STUFF
>>25327658All great literature is at its core about cuckoldry.
>>25327642how dare you call tolkien a modernist, they didn't like his stuff
>>25333971>Confirmed for having read any premodern literatureCorrect, I have read premodern literature.
>>25333997Am I the only one who calls him "Lord Dogfanny"?
>>25334524Explain why you call him that or I'll make the sign of mung on you
>>25334572Because it's funny lol
Deep in the glorfang mines, Alepnor met Gnuipur and found a magical sword: pooltanir! And then with their mighty bonds forged, Alepnor and Gnipur went to Howlisder, the great city to consider the throne of that great dane, Melzsidor.this tolkien thing is fucking EASY how did he get retards to read this
>>25327642>Ariosto>Homer>Cervantes>grey morality I guess you've never read any of these people.
Tolkien needs to step away from my girl JK, he’s sniffin’ at carrot cake that don’t belong to him
>>25327659Worldbuilding is without a doubt the most basedface aspect of literature
>>25327642Wow look I can cherrypick tooZoroastrianism/Bible/Plato vs GRRMStupid faggot
>>25334524Lord Dougfunny
>>25327903Because the people really into anime are manchildren, it's that simple. People into other mediums can also be manchildren but being a manchild is a necessary condition to be an anime fan.
>>25327659being able to hold several names in one's working memory is strongly correlated with intelligence
>>25327642lmao
It's true in the cases you gave, and not true in many of the cases you didn't.In short, yes, you can cherry pick some authors from any era and make it look they have have one view or the other.Is it ambiguous who is evil in Beowulf?
>>25327713It's enjoyable. They want to get lost in the interesting details of another world.I mean why do you care so much about prose?Because you find "good prose" enjoyable. When you remove all the bad faith assumptions and insults the truth is pretty simple. Life is boring so we all seek escape from that boredom in one way or another.There is no virtue in taking pleasure in nothing. There is no virtue is shunning other's harmless pastimes. You aren't better than them simply because you enjoy different things for slightly different reasons.
>>25327658It's less so cuckoldry and more so the fact that people often died from tons of stuff back then. So a young married couple that lived 50 years together with no illnesses, wars, or accidents and had 5 children that all made it to adulthood who went on to have their own children was rare in those days.
