Why does Holden Caulfield get so much hate? Isn't he typical of how a moody teenager acts? He clearly has PTSD and no adults in his life.
moody hormonal adolescents are faggots and deserve to be bullied into suicide, simple as.
>>25337006Normalfags are incapable of sympathy. They only see a white male of the past and their Pavlovian reaction is instant hate hate hate.
>>25337010your victimhood is showing
Complex character read by simple people.
>>25337006People grew up, stopped being dorky virgins and developed frontal lobes.
I really enjoyed this book when I read it as a teen.
>>25337012your jeetness is showing
>>25337050then show some sympathy for me to prove you aren't a normalfag
>>25337006Nobody actually read it
>Why does Holden Caulfield get so much hate?He is a pedophile.
>>25337646this
>>25337088KEK
>>25337006Before the concept of an incel was established, the same people who are repulsed by incels today recognised their essential characteristics in Holden Caulfield and hated him for it.
Didn't we have a thread about this exact topic yesterday?
>>25337006because like >>25337010 said, people don’t actually give a fuck about people who are suffering things like mental illness and whatnot. Holden isn’t the “pretty” kind of ill person where it’s something that’s in someway glamorous or “different” and “exotic” to someone that isn’t actively suffering from it—he’s rude, he’s judgemental, he’s a brat, etc., and that’s why he’s such a good depiction.People who go through the shit he has in real life are often the same way, just total fags you don’t want to be around because there’s aspects about them that exist as complexes meant to push people away as a defense mechanism. The type of people who will eventually be pushing mid-30’s working at a gas station, slowly developing lung cancer from frequent cigarette usage because they literally have nothing else, your average looksmaxxing chuds that are performative pricks that act basically exactly like troons because they have no frame for what masculinity is actually like due to a poor upbringing, and your involuntary celibate that never got to develop proper social skills or functioning due to the same problem of poor upbringing. The average normie HATES people like that, even if they’re still a soft, nice person somewhere deep beneath all the layers, because the average normie is incapable of thinking of a person beyond their base layers. That’s exactly why you hear one of the most common critiques of Holden being that “he’s so annoying and whiny.”Yeah, no shit. That’s the exact thing the narrative is trying to expose, that the normalfags of society only want the aesthetic of caring about others. The moment it requires actual patience, or dealing with someone whose cry for help comes in the form of self-sabotage or hostility, they tap out and write them off as a spoiled asshole.
>>25338386also, he (almost) rapes his sister, Phoebe
he gay
>>25338386>implying recognizing a sick society is mental illness
>>25337006Because women hate incel type characters far more than they do rapists
>>25337006Unironically because people don't and can't have coherent identities because our conscious mind is only a fraction of what we are, so we're desperate to construct a mental model of ourselves as coherent and whole selves, which lead most people to consume art looking for identification with either a character or with the idea of being the sort of person who consumes certain type of art. But these identities, even if they may be flawed, must allow people to misrecognize themselves in them, which won't happen when the character is so realistic that they can actually see themselves in it, not as a coherent fantasy, but as awkward untethered beings. Of course, some people can still misrecognize themselves in Caulfield, or they accept recognizing themselves in him, but the sort of people who think they have a good but inherently false idea of whom they are, when they are confronted with something closer to reality their identity breaks and feel a rush of anxiety. This is more or less what Lacan says.
>>25337010SPBPThis book is indecipherable if you don't have experience with real, diagnosable mental illness. People who lack sympathy for Caulfield, or can't even understand his point of view, are the closest humans we have to NPCs. It's not even that difficult for an autist to understand logically--a kid with a dead brother is allowed to fucking grieve. There's also a level of raw honesty to Caulfield's observations about society's falsehoods. The book is usually slammed by those who choose to accept the double standards of society for the personal benefit. They hate it because it either makes them recognize their complicity or, even worse, they can't understand why being a hypocrite is so upsetting to adolescents. I also find that it is extremely useful for identifying room-temp IQs and people with personality disorders. The book really riles those types up, most of all. I'm not sure why. But I think there's something about Caulfield's depression that is very insular and nondramatic, which tends to upset people who outwardly project their issues rather than deal with them internally. No one hates introspection as much as the overthinker, and no one hates overthinkers as much as those who don't think at all.
>>25338647Good post. Catcher in the Rye is one of my favorite novels. When I read it in high school I didn't really get it, but when I reread it in my late 20s I understood.
>>25337006he doesn't clearly have anything other than opinionsstop fucking fake diagnosing some bullshit
>>25338647Based.
>>25338685fuck that.he doesnt need your fucking spectrum
>>25337006>He clearly has PTSD and no adults in his life.What if I told you that most readers are too illiterate to even pick up on this? Just look up any reddit thread related the book and you will see that it's actually true.
>>25338690(You)
>>25338651If you enjoy Catcher, all of Salinger's work is worth reading. Franny & Zooey is Catcher for people in their 20s. I'd never seen an accurate depiction of my misanthropy until Franny, and it was valuable to me that Salinger didn't blame the character for holding her perspective. I think 9 Stories is probably his best work, but I haven't read Raise High yet.
>>25338647Holden's brother is dead?What? When?I didn't make past 20 pages, the last time I read this phony book.
>>25337006I'm convinced that most of the hate comes from the fact that people were forced to read the book in high school.
>>25337010I'm autistic and depressed and mentally stuck in my teenage years and even I don't like Holden.
>>25338813When you have to read this and shitty stories about gay and black Chinese immigrants, you can never hate the system enough for trying to convince people that books are garbage
I think it's always going to be an effective thought experiment, people who are part of the program unable to understand the perspective of somebody outside of it
>>25338827Nah i just don't like the forced empathy thing, I would rather read a book about a guy that talks to bugs in a giant peach or people that wear cars as clothes in a dystopian society, if i wanted to boo-hoo at people i would watch the U.S.A for Africa song.
>>25338789Nice. I got 9 Stories out of a little free library yesterday and it's in my left hand open to the first page of Bananafish right now. I'll put my phone down, thank you
>>25338823Not sure what is being taught in schools today, but the only book I remember that would be around the immigrant experience in America was the Joy Luck Club. Teaching literature in schools is kind of damned if you do damned if you don't situation. You give these kids a novel and they are sort of put on the spot of dissecting the book from page one instead of just having them read the book. It takes the joy out of reading, but I'm not sure how else you teach someone to think critically about what they are reading. I do remember my dad complaining that the summer reading lists they would hand out lacked books for boys.
>>25338918I hope you enjoy it anon. One thing to remember, if you're still reading or thinking about the stories, is that Salinger wrote a lot about his fictional Glass family. 9 Stories features many connections to that family, a well-educated upper-class group of child prodigies who were famous on the radio. Seymour from Bananafish is one of the older Glass brothers and the ending of that story is the basis for many of Salinger's other works (Franny & Zooey, Raise High). I can't remember if it's in 9 Stories or Raise High, but Caulfield cameos in one of Salinger's other works. It gives an external perspective of him, removed from his own internal monologue.
Most people were moody teenagers and most people continue to be moody teenagers long into adulthood, so some of them try to distance themselves from their teenage moodiness by ridiculing it in others. It is a sign of insecurity.
>>25339302The attitude of being a moody teenager is based as an adult if you combine it with drive, discipline and the will to power.
>>25339314deep thoughts for anyone under 30
>>25339333Angst is good to have as creative fuel. Angst has its place. I want "deep" thoughts for my entire life. I'm past 30. I'm a very well put together person with a career, savings, family, etc.
>tfw never read it in schoolI should read it but I won't because digital media has consumed my life. I can feel myself slowly becoming a stupider person gradually over time compared to when I was younger.
>>25337006Never read it, probably never will. Noticers noticing just isn't interesting anymore. Its basically the same as talking about the weather now. Small talk filler before the next distraction.
>>25339421Your better off reading something else
>>25337006women hate apathetic men because they can't squeeze any money out of them via dating or taxation.
>>2533942637 is half your life age
>>25338793There's a whole bit about his older brother Allie in chapter 5, where he can only speak about his brother in an intellectualizing way (he reveals that when his brother died, he slept in his garage and started brealing windows with his fist until he broke his hand).
>>25339351>angst is good for such and suchdiscipline is even better
>>25339500Discipline needs direction. You can be disciplined in something completely pointless and unproductive.
>>25337646What? How?
>>25339508right because angst plus discipline would never produce a generation of stunted impotent gaming addicts>Discipline needs directionother way around, rousseau.
>>25338570There is nothing women hate more then a guy they know is smarter than them who they find sexually repulsive.
>>25339873but there's nothing women love more than a man they know is smarter than them who they find sexually attractive
>>25339613Oh, you're the schizo that spergs about gaming addiction
>>25340010Oh, you're the retard that literally has no argument
>>25339873>>25339898These boys know.>>25340010Touched a nerve?
Why does every depiction of holden get the hat wrong
this one guy I knew had this exact image tattooed on his shoulder
>>25340056I have a tattoo of just the bird from this imageI also have a "so it goes" tattoo I'm a total loser
>>25338016it's not that. he was an "outsider" and anti-hero. those types are more anti social but can still be attractive to girls/women. Holden is nearly punk rock. Incel is an entirely 2010-20s meme phenomenon. almost everyone fucked back then unless you were horribly deformed
>>25340169loads of people are terribly deformed with sharp knees thobeit
>>25340169>almost everyone fucked back then unless you were horribly deformedwell yeah the average kid didnt have their hormones warped by excessive masturbation with online pornography, they naturally tried to get it on with women for lack of better options and release
There is something so pathetic about ex-porn addicts that make that their whole personality lmao. Spiteful drama queens, just like alcoholics
>>25338817>I'm autisticsay no more
