>>25342411
Is this book good or is it just a meme

>>25342411
Dude Oliver Tree just fucking died and you're posting this shit

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>>25342519
meme

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>(((HERRNSTEIN)))

>>25342519
It is pretty good, I found it very informative on the subject of IQ.

The book's real value isn't in its content directly, but in the reaction it provoked, and still provokes to this day. I credit this book with singlehandedly helping me to realize that large parts of the supposed rationalistic reason- and science-based world of academia, is just as dogmatic as any religion. After reading controversial works, I like to search for counterarguments to see how strong the book really was. With The Bell Curve, I was surprised to find most of the criticisms amounted to the facts being racist. They were not racist because they were wrong, but because the outcome showed different outcomes by racial group, which went against their egalitarian beliefs. Other arguments put forth really weak arguments that were directly addressed in the book, showing they hadn't even read it, or perhaps we're trying to manipulate prospective readers. There were arguments about some of the studies used being from racist sources, but there was no evidence that these studies weren't using real data. It is one of the only books I've seen where the sources were actually seriously critiqued, in books that conform to the academic consensus, the sources are accepted without question. So, in summary, the attacks against this book, really display the worst of academia and do a lot to discredit their authority, and that is more valuable than anything in the book itself.

>>25342519
one of the most important books of all time
it's never EVER been debunked btw

>>25342522
Brown christian hands made this

>>25342411
Wait, isn't higher IQ correlated with higher likelihood of left-wing political views?

>>25342772
It correlates with liberalism which I've been told isn't leftism

>>25342784
>liberal
It depends on if they used the term colloquially or if they asked for their opinion on Adam Smith.

>>25342737
lose weight tubby

>>25342411
now listen, im retarded, but isnt eugenics not even on the table cause let us say we killed all the retards, myself included, another retard just like me is gunna pop back up from like genes mutating? Or does eugenics not just mean retards will be extinct it just means we prevent their births from ever happening?

>>25342804
If we killed all the retards then the people who would have been average otherwise would be next on the chopping block. Intelligence is relative.

>>25342808
is IQ an irrelevant measurement?

>>25342411
>>25342732
You have to be incredibly dishonest with yourself and intellectually incurious to put Ethiopians, Angolans, Nigerians, Botswanans, Namibians, Guineans, Malawi, Kenyans, Tanzanians, Somalis, Eswatini, Zambians, Sudanese, Eritreans and Ugandans into the single category of "black", and then claim all "black" people are biologically doomed to idiocy.

Do you truly think that all these totally different groups, that developed in totally different environments, with totally different demands, spanning a massive continent 4,000 miles long, all happened to have conditions that select against intelligence? Really? Do you, the person reading this, genuinely feel that? Drop all the vitriol associated with this topic for a second, and just ask yourself if that intuitively checks out.

Doesn't it seem more likely that poverty and parental neglect make people stupid, and stupid people tend to be poor and neglect their children? How implausible is it that a group lynched and openly discriminated against eighty years ago just hasn't had time to break the cycle of poverty and illiteracy?

If you're into books, on this board, reading this right now, you probably had parents who cared about you at least a little. Your mother read to you when you were a kid, your house had reading material, your parents cooked for you, you went to the doctor when you were sick, your bedroom didn't have black mold in it, the pipes in your bathroom and paint on your wall didn't have lead, blah blah blah whatever.

If you had none of that, if your parents beat you and you literally never learned to read, do you think you'd be the same person you are now? Obviously not. The way you go about thinking would be fundamentally, totally different, and your general intelligence would be in the gutter. You'd have the same basic, undeveloped patterns of thought as the people you regard with such contempt.

I used to be racist too, but the nurture/development argument is just so much more robust than the nature/genetic argument. Children never learn to speak if they miss the critical period. Why wouldn't the same be true for reasoning?

>>25342817
shut the fuck up faggot

>>25342817
trvke

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>>25342817
/lit/ isn't smart enough for this kind of post

>>25342821
>>25342826
Samefag.

>>25342772
lmao the last time we had a bell curve thread someone posted this as the first reply and the entire thread turned into resentful seething over this simple truth

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>>25342827
kek

>>25342832
>F12

>>25342833
>NOOOOO NOOOO YOU FAKED IT NOOOOOOO
Meds kek

>>25342835
Not fooling anyone shartytroon

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>>25342827
Nuh uh

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>>25342827

>>25342826
>>25342821
>>25342817

Wtf? Has /lit/ been taken over by a bunch of leftroons?

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>>25342827
Retard

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>still trying

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>>25342827
Not what mine looks like

>>25342817
..may you recommend me books/recs and source. I want to know more.

>>25342411
>Sponsored by Pioneer Fund, now known as Human Diversity Foundation.
>politics influencing science again.
Many, many such cases!
>but the left!
Are just as bad.
Now follow the money.

>>25342828
No it wasn't, it was pointed out that high(er) IQ correlates with liberal and pro-capitalist views
Are pro-capitalist liberals leftists now?

How many times
Have we
Had this
Same fucking thread
???

>>25342817
>You have to be incredibly dishonest with yourself and intellectually incurious to put Ethiopians, Angolans, Nigerians, Botswanans, Namibians, Guineans, Malawi, Kenyans, Tanzanians, Somalis, Eswatini, Zambians, Sudanese, Eritreans and Ugandans into the single category of "black", and then claim all "black" people are biologically doomed to idiocy.
The book doesn't state this and no one in this thread is either?
>Doesn't it seem more likely that poverty and parental neglect make people stupid, and stupid people tend to be poor and neglect their children?
The book addresses and directly debunks this, as in that's the whole point
>but the nurture/development argument is just so much more robust than the nature/genetic argument.
Not supported by the science at all

It's amazing how The Bell Curve drives leftists mad to the point of outright lying

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>>25342817
Let’s take the politics out of it and go back to the basics of biology.

Take two populations of the same species. Not humans- let’s say rabbits.

Isolate them genetically for a significant period (usually such isolation is caused by geography but it doesn’t matter why so long as interbreeding is minimal and is over enough generations for natural selection and genetic drift to occur).

Will there be a divergence of traits between the two populations?

The answer is yes, of course. Some traits will diverge becasue of natural selection, some because of sexual selection and some just becasue of genetic drift.

After all that is how evolution works - it simply must be the case.

Evolution isn’t just about when two populations diverge so greatly that a new species or sub-species forms - it’ happening daily for all sorts of traits and characteristics of an animal.

And the traits that most directly impact on fitness will tend to be subject to strong selection.

So wind it back to humans.

Have certain populations of humans being genetically isolated from each other for many generations?

Yes. We tend to call them ethnicities.

Will their traits vary as between population groups?

Yes. Hair type, blood group, eye colour, facial features, ability to digest certain foods, average height, body shape etc. All these traits demonstrably differ between ethnic groups.

Is intelligence a trait of humans that will likewise vary?

You can logically only choose one answer:

A) Yes - and as intelligence is one of a human’s key traits it is likely to be selected for quite strongly in different environments and communities,

B) No - intelligence is a special trait - alone amongst all traits it’s not possible for it to vary between groups at all - all groups of human beings have the same average intelligence.

If you pick B fine, but don’t expect to pass a biology class any time soon.

>>25342891
Anon, this is going to be a thread for many years to come. Its merely a proxy for people to air out and shitfling their political 'opponents'.
Unfortunately its going to bump again till 300 replies, most of which between 5 anons talking about politics and nothing about the book.
Its over.

>>25342891
I'm going to keep making this thread because it's funny every time

>>25342772
Average IQ in India is 120 and they are conservative.

>>25342900
The only area of smarts an Indian has is their self hatred and distaste for Muslims.

>>25342896
I only post on /lit/ to dunk on my political opponents in a basically unjannied environment with spergs who take the bait every single time. I don't even read.

>>25342898
>>25342909
based?

>>25342909
So basically most of the board?
Can't say I'm mad, it works.
Like flies to shit.

>>25342914
Reading is for homosexuals and frenchmen. But I repeat myself.

>>25342916
I knew you retards didn't like reading.
Kek, well played.
Bump

>>25342411
no.
we are equal
but have have different qualities, which are irrelevant to our equality
go fuck you racist self with a broken bottle

>>25342932
>we are equal
>but actually we're different
do you know what equal means?

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99% of the skills of intelligence of have nothing to do with evolution, and can't because language and abstract reasoning are not skills anyone was born with for survival or reproduction despite being so ubiquitous, in fact both have been shown to rewire the brain when learned which validate the flynn effect

Eugenics is just a theology to justify our rule by greedy parasites. The class that is sanctified by it are fucking midwits and not actual geniuses by any stretch, they are just finance experts who shuffle money around, or techbros who figure out ways to make people more addicted to apps and social media.

Anyone who REALLY cared about knowledge and intellect among the masses would make education the object for spending that defense is today. Tutors and small classrooms would dominate and children would breathe learning from day one. But that would never create a class of good slaves and eugenics perpetuates that including for (You).

>>25343048
>99% of the skills of intelligence of have nothing to do with evolution, and can't because language and abstract reasoning are not skills anyone was born with for survival or reproduction despite being so ubiquitous, in fact both have been shown to rewire the brain when learned which validate the flynn effect
an idea so outdated even most leftist scientists would call you a retard for it congrats.

>>25343018
do you know what categories are?
fucking dimwit
go bury yourself in a hole and light yourself on fire, dumb ass cunt

>>25343070
If "outdated" by itself were some kind of argument then this thread can safely be dismissed entirely

>>25343080
there are well known genes involved in speech and language so your point is far more demonstrably false then even the most racist theories about humans.

>>25343087
than*

>>25343087
There are genes required for EVERY human activity but language is not a trait that can be passed down through reproduction, especially fucking writing

>>25343097
no but the ease and ability of learning a language is something that is passed down and therefore has an effect on the skill of learning language.

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>Intelligence theory has its starting point in a moral interpretation of bourgeois society: everybody lands where he belongs because everybody is what he is made from and carries within himself the key to success, which is within his reach. Intelligence theory absolutizes this racism of competition in a certain way: it completely eliminates the social hierarchy of bourgeois society and constructs a new, purely human hierarchy of intelligence differences and IQs, cleansed of all social gradations, along which people sort themselves. This then is the scientific proof that what they are is what they have made of themselves in accord with the abilities which are in them. With the invention of an ability to know and its quantitative differentiation, the idea of a big key that one has in his individuality has assumed theoretical form. Then this idea is even capable of a socio-critical use: whether in this part of the world and elsewhere the potential keys are sufficiently forged for the success of the subjects and whether the society makes enough fitting locks available is the question which does not question social selection, but its perfection.

>>25342772
High IQ correlates with left-wing politics because real life doesn't reward being intellectual and/or educated. To achieve the real-life success of money/fame/status, you need to be entrepreneurial or charismatic.
High IQ people get their English Major degree, and then discover the best society can offer them is a burger-flipping job, and that no one cares whether you've read James Joyce or not.
And then they discover leftism, the theocratic ideology that says educated people like (You) should be a privileged priest caste that runs the world.

Tl;dr: high-IQ people like leftism for the same reason impoverished third-world niggers like leftism - because it promises them free gibs, and "moral intelligence" is evidently something very different from "academic intelligence."

>>25343072
I know you are categorically retarded

>>25343106
There are in fact plenty of really stupid people who speak multiple languages fluently including immigrants whereas there are probably a lot of monolinguals regarded as smart

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>>25343111
How is he always so Based?

>>25343134
you thought that was a marx quote? damn leftists are stupid. "iq" wasn't even a term until 1912.

Thinking iq isn’t real is pretty fucking stupid. Thinking intelligence isn’t faceted is stupid too though.

>>25342522
I haven't read his books but what's wrong with Joseph Campbell? I remember watching his lectures and thinking they were neato, didn't hurt that Susan Sarandon and her BIG HONKERS were in there.

>>25343336
not pozzed enough

>>25343336
>Thinkers like Evola, Jung, Campbell, Peterson, etc all derive their perennialism from reductionist interpretations of popular stories and myths, not from any serious, academic inquiry into these myths, which often changed drastically over time and have many mutually exclusive versions, as we find in Plutarch who talks about numerous versions of the best known stories of Theseus. The pseud in trying to analyze the story will drop any version but what is canon in pop culture of their day. They take a few dozen of these stories and then draw some common points, no matter how general, and then from these pronounce some sort of universal principles. This is very different from the approach of Freud who analyzed specific works of literature, be they based on prior stories, and sought to find what exactly makes them specifically universally and lastingly compelling, rather than implying some omni consciousness creates all stories with innate patterns

>>25342845
You're telling me /lit/ isn't a hivemind? NOOOO HELP ME I'M GOING INSAAAANE

>>25342817
They hated him because he spoke the truth
>>25342892
>Not supported by the science at all
Believe it or not, the field of genetics has progressed since the 90s

>>25342521
Barry Bush

If you have to read one review of the book, read this one:
https://web.archive.org/web/20040202202640/http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/Upstream/Issues/bell-curve/sowell.html

I'm not a fan of the melanin enriched races.

>>25343308
>Yes. There aren't any corners of Africa nor the Middle East that selected for long-term planning. Europe, Asia and even certain parts of South America do have regions that experience what can be called "winter" which would demand long-term thinking associated with strong intelligence.
You don't need winters to select for intelligence, though. Many parts of Africa are very dry and experience brutal droughts, which would super heavily select for long-term planning.
If anything, you could argue droughts are better selector for intelligence than winter, because winter is usually seasonal whereas droughts can occur without warning and last for several years.

>>25342817
Its cute how you Europoors enjoy applying nominalism to the subject of race as if you're an expert.

>>25343703
>Yes you do. All 100 IQ parity ethnicities stemming from regions with oppressive winters demonstrate this is reality.
Does Iberia have oppressive winters? Does Italy have oppressive winters?
Were Spain and Rome low IQ, unaccomplished civilizations?
I can't imagine being retarded you'd choose to argue something so obviously, demonstrably untrue.

>>25343703
you apparently don't know anything about geography. i suppose you think italy and rome has oppressive winters? irony is that the people up north of them at the time with the "oppressive winters" were savages, barbarians living in huts. ah, but they were so smart!

>>25343716
>vaguely claiming it's embarrassing without elaborating because you just realized how unbelievably retarded and indefensible your argument is

>>25343308
>>25343703
If this is the case, wouldn't we expect Inuits to be at least as intelligent as Europeans? Instead, their average IQ is 86. Doesn't this totally go against what you're proposing?

>>25342819
I accept your concession

>>25342411
What are the implications of this book beyond the initial shock to perceived delicate liberal sensibilities?
If we take for granted the premises of the book that some people are on average less intelligent for genetic reasons, what does that mean? Are less intelligent people not still capable of abstract physical labor? Many of the right wing interpretations of this book are rooted in Clintonite PMC/Intellectual Labor fetishism whose sagest advice is "learn to code".

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>>25343749
>Inuits do not experience drastic seasonal change
Okay, fair enough. What about natives from temperate-ish regions with very harsh winters, like the Mohawk or Seneca? Shouldn't they also have gone through the same selection process you claim Europeans did? Why are their IQs also in the mid 80s, then?

>>25342845
>my controversial position is ......le controversial?

>>25342411
Damn you, OP

>>25342804
Eugenics just means that you promote good genes in some way. You don't have to kill anyone. You can give subsidies to smart parents, you can pay people to get sterilized, you can sterilize criminals, etc. Plenty of options.

>>25343321

Lol I know it's not his. I just wanted to post swole Marx

>>25343350
this. in other words they're shallow retards that conflate superstition with metaphysics/hermeneutics

>>25343048
Of course intelligence is a huge selection factor for evolution. Seeing correlations between different concepts is a great deal. A person gets bitten by random spider, person dies, spider might by dangerous. A person eats plant and dies, plant might be dangerous. If I push animal in corner, I can eat it easier. If I throw something, the point on my arm closer to my shoulder moves slower than the outer part. If I create an even more outer part, I can throw stuff faster at subhumans from next village.
This is basic intelligence (apprehension, relations, correlations). The more intelligent, the better the understanding of language.

>Flynn effect
I am not sure of the content of this book. But like 20 years earlier f.e. Eysenck already talked about the heritability of IQ being around 80%. While it was a bit too high, it wasn't absurd. So I guess Murray already new about this. Nowadays it is guessed to be around 50% to 80%. Meaning there still is room for environmental factors. All the countries have experienced an explosion in technology, etc. Meaning their environment got better. Meaning the IQ gets higher. But as you can see the flynn effect already flattens. The environmental factors are pretty much maxxed out. It doesn't rise anymore, because it is restricted by genetics.

>Eugenics is just a theology to justify our rule by greedy parasites
Opposite. Eugenics doesn't have to be forced from the top. But every form of socialism and similar leads to dysgencis. There is no pressure for selection now. All the genes that are prone to cancer, substance addiction, aggression, low iq, etc are preserved in the gene pool. Eugenics can also just mean to preserve the natural selection.

>Tutors and small classrooms would dominate and children would breathe learning from day one.
Small classrooms is the point. Different levels for kids with different results. High iq and mid iq + motivation, mid iq, low iq or some shit like that. IQlets can't be in the same class as IQ-gods. Either one gets held back or one has to be given up upon. Schools need to have a higher hierarchy to achieve better results. Treating all the humans as the same won't lead to a Goethe on every street corner.

>>25342827
cope harder, fatty

>>25342817
little timmy and cleetus arent happy right now kek

>>25342411
Even after having read Arthur de Gobineau's racist works and even agreeing with him in many points, not for a single second have I stopped being convinced of the fact that online racists are retarded subhumanoids who should kill themselves.

>>25344092
the problem with most racists is that they're too narcissistic to see that they themselves meet their own criteria for "worthless subhuman that contributes nothing to the gene pool"

>>25344099
Exactly, and apparently Gobineau was the only one who cached this issue, the modern European is a very degraded being even compared to the ancient mulattoes:
"The species is nowhere found in its original form. Our nations most free from such mixtures are merely highly decomposed, poorly harmonic results of a series of blends, either black and white, like the Spanish, Italians, and Provençals in southern Europe; or yellow and white, like the English, Germans, and Russians in the north. Thus, mixed-race individuals, the product of a supposedly white father whose original essence is already so altered, could in no way attain the ethnic value possessed by the black Hamites."

>>25344099
Most racism is just ethno-narcissism so this checks out.

>>25342411

I should make the list of works that refutes this book a pasta at this point

>>25344092
>online racists are retarded subhumanoids who should kill themselves.
Suicidality is something that disproportionately appears among racists, even bigots in general. Their desire to exterminate other humans is often a maladapted response of their own repressed feelings of self-annihilation, self-hatred, etc. Just look at how suicidal the Nazis became in the last year or two of the war. That wasn't just some impromptu Plan B, it's a perfectly logical extension of their own warped worldview.

Fascinated how >>25342817 remains up while replies to it like >>25343308 get deleted. I can only assume the mod is actually making these horrendous threads, posting trash like >>25344161 and spamming positive replies to himself.

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>25344170
>dear diary today i got raped in the ass like a faggot on 4chan again

>>25344161
>That wasn't just some impromptu Plan B

But it obviously was.

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>>25344170
Amazing what happens when there is no accountability. It's just like Reddit!

>>25344170
/pol/tards are about to evicted from this board.

>>25344175
They had issued potassium cyanide capsules for years.

>>25344181
If you meant impromptu in the sense not that they were spurred by potentially foreseeable circumstances which made suicide with honor the most desirable outcome but rather that they didn‘t think of it the very second they did it then your point loses all meaning.

>>25344192
I didn't.

>>25344076
>intelligence is a huge selection factor for evolution.

Question panhandling

>Seeing correlations between different concepts is a great deal. A person gets bitten by random spider, person dies, spider might by dangerous. A person eats plant and dies, plant might be dangerous. If I push animal in corner, I can eat it easier. If I throw something, the point on my arm closer to my shoulder moves slower than the outer part. If I create an even more outer part, I can throw stuff faster at subhumans from next village.
This is basic intelligence (apprehension, relations, correlations).

This is shit crows do.

>The more intelligent, the better the understanding of language.

No, understanding of language is something learned and must be taught. We have writings of numerous dead languages which are completely indecipherable to our most brilliant minds.

>Eysenck already talked about the heritability of IQ being around 80%

That's totally believable the heritability of wealth is likely around the same, that doesn't make wealth genetic

>There is no pressure for selection now

Yeah turning superorganisms into thunderdome doesn't actually make them better. If it did then you as an organism would be fucked since your cells are not constantly at each other's throats. Your cells are socialist

>Different levels for kids with different results. High iq and mid iq + motivation, mid iq, low iq or some shit like that. IQlets can't be in the same class as IQ-gods. Either one gets held back or one has to be given up upon. Schools need to have a higher hierarchy to achieve better results. Treating all the humans as the same won't lead to a Goethe on every street corner.

There is zero reason to believe Goethe had a high IQ. Euler would have made more sense in this context. Goethe and Beethoven struggled with basic mathematics, they were simply artistic geniuses.

>>25344179
Oh Malkavians.

>>25344180
There‘ll be something offhandedly amusing in how indistinguishable this place becomes from reddit or instagram if the "you have to go to porn boards to be racist" rule actually gets enforced. Not that I‘ll be around to watch.

>>25344249
But it's a totally correct response to the midwit pseudo social darwinism of capitalists who keep insisting that thunderdome between atomic organisms as the basis of organisms becoming more complex

>>25344242
>board topics might actually be discussed instead of screeching about jews and no pussy
You won't be missed.

>>25344268
But that is absolutely and 100% the post protestant ideology of capitalism. Darwinism of this sort replaced Whig, which is why Woodrow Wilson said the Constitution's interpretation is "Darwinian not Newtonian." With the lack of sanction by God, the new sanction to capitalism must come from nature itself. It is no surprise that the major online ideologues of capitalism now see capitalists as Nietzschean "beasts of prey"

>>25344266
People with a rosy view of the board pre-2016 probably weren‘t here to perceive that it had the same amount of spam just with reference to DFW and Pynchon mostly. At least now the actual cases of social concern are being addressed with a tangential relation to literature of quality (not this thread.)

>>25344268
>If you really believe an array of creatures developing minute mutations that might be more or less beneficial, gradually breeding, naturally filtering most of the "less good" ones (since they're maladaptive) while perpetuating the "mostly good" ones (because they're not maladaptive) is somehow capitalist
It is because the random mutations + natural selection hypotheses is obviously false, and the only reason it retained so much backing from mainstream academia is because jews posioned the well on Lamarckianism.

Science and metaphysics are the same desu.

>>25342845
newfag, this board has always been considerably more leftist than the rest of 4chan

>>25344323
Denying the impact of social Darwinism is gross ignorance, either due to purpose, or astonishing, practically miraculous stupidity

>>25342889
/pol/troons hate liberals too, so that line still works

>>25344384
IQ only correlates with social liberalism. It has no strong correlation with views on economics.

>>25344231
>This is shit crows do.
Yes. This is why we say that crows are intelligent animals. We are just more intelligent.

>No, understanding of language is something learned and must be taught. We have writings of numerous dead languages which are completely indecipherable to our most brilliant minds.
Because there isn't enough information to decipher it and/or the minds aren't intelligent enough for that. That is why we can use AI with has a lot of raw intelligence for that purpose. Language follows patterns, which is basically what fluid intelligence is all about.

>That's totally believable the heritability of wealth is likely around the same, that doesn't make wealth genetic
Highly intelligent people more often become wealthy. That high intelligence gets passed down. And I never said that wealth is genetic. There is enough evidence that IQ is largely inherited through genetics.

>Yeah turning superorganisms into thunderdome doesn't actually make them better. If it did then you as an organism would be fucked since your cells are not constantly at each other's throats. Your cells are socialist
Cells share a close genetic similarity than people in a society do. Organisms with more similar genetics prefer each other. Apart from that each cell has its destiny and purpose. My liver doesn't suddenly wants to be my penis and my penis my brain. Humans are more conscious and have a higher will to power. You can dream all you want about humans being mindless but cheerful with each other, won't happen though. I am not advising for a thunderdome society btw. I am not an ancap. But seriously, don't you see that human beings and simple cells aren't really that comparible?

>There is zero reason to believe Goethe had a high IQ. Euler would have made more sense in this context. Goethe and Beethoven struggled with basic mathematics, they were simply artistic geniuses.
It was a reference to Lenin, who thought that by achieving freedom of chance for all, we would have a Goethe on every street corner. Not possible though, because he overestimated the environmental influence in IQ. Communists like him mostly completely ignore that humans have a nature and are driven my instincts.
Goethe wasn't simply an artistic genius btw. He was probably one of the most intelligent person OAT. Besides of art, he was an expert on Morphology, Botany, Economics, Geology, Anatomy, Law, ... He was probably the last great polymath.

>>25342411
Evolution is fake and gay. It's entirely descriptive, all it tells is the fact we observe certain traits survive, it doesn't explain how multiplicity and change even come about. Genetic mutation or variance simply isn't explanatory for how this happens; it's the equivalent of thinking that if you had a million monkeys mashing a keyboard for billions of years you'll eventually get Shakespeare.

>>25344356
>random mutations + natural selection hypotheses is obviously false
Why?

>>25344170
What did the deleted reply say?

>>25344422
Long-term planning in terms of hoarding and rationing is done by squirrels and insects, it is not the same as human intelligence.

>>25344434
Did you know they spent a tonne of money trying to teach Sub-Saharan Africans how to farm but the subs just kept digging up and eating the seeds?

>>25344459
There are plenty of sub-saharan farmers.

>>25342772
It correlates with both being White/Asian and being liberal, which is funny because liberals don't believe IQ testing is legitimate

>>25344459
>spells ton with an e
>generalizes the 1.1 billion people of sub-saharan africa as a uniform group
>actually thinks no one in africa can farm like in memes
>somehow unaware agriculture makes up a third of african GDP
>calls them subs for some reason (???)
>cites "they" trying to do some thing as proof, doesn't elaborate as to who "they" are or why they failed.
real intellectual heavyweight over here, damn.

I just want all the browns to go away.

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>>25344474
Obviously not enough. Pic-related.
>>25344490
>spells ton with an e
Which is the correct spelling so I won't bother to read the rest of your post.

>>25344489
People with genuinely high IQ do not tend to revere it as magic the same as people really good at math do not see it as magical spells the way people who suck at it see it.

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I just want all the white neckbeards to get raped and murdered in death camps.

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>>25344501
Pic related.

>>25344500
Those are not bushmen, they are obviously people with either agriculture or herding. The causes of famines in Africa aee not due to lack of farming but lack of advanced farming and lack of wealth, many advanced countries depend heavily on imports and would face famine without them

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Reminder that without The Bell Curve there wouldn't be an economically powerful China.
>Lee Kuan Yew [founder of Singapore] famously declared that "The Bell curve is a fact of life". He believed that cognitive abilities are not equal across individuals or populations, arguing that intelligence is heavily determined by genetics rather than just environmental or cultural factors. He openly opposed the notion that all people are born with the same inherent potential, stating that equal opportunity does not yield equal results due to these baseline differences. Because Lee believed that ability is distributed along a bell curve, he instituted a hyper-competitive educational and civil service system designed to identify and fast-track the top tier of talent into leadership positions. He championed policies to attract the "best intellectual and management capital from anywhere in the world" to elevate Singapore’s overall talent pool.
>Lee Kuan Yew deeply influenced Deng Xiaoping by serving as a pragmatic blueprint for China's economic rise. During Deng's 1978 visit to Singapore, he observed how Lee transformed a poor nation into an economic powerhouse by heavily embracing foreign investment, multinational corporations, and strict social order, inspiring China's own market reforms. Deng was profoundly impressed by Singapore's stability, efficiency, and cleanliness. This reinforced his belief in maintaining strict political discipline while modernizing the economy.

>>25344490
>somehow unaware agriculture makes up a third of african GDP

Since /pol/tards are trying to justify racist ideas from the 17th century, it makes sense that their reality itself is stuck in the 17th century

>>25344501
>People with genuinely high IQ do not tend to revere it as magic
Source?

>>25344509
>If we just send even more money into it surely things will change
You guys are such NPCs it's almost unbelievable.

>>25344517
My gf was in Mensa and she and the people she knew in mensa. It's just like really really rich people do not dress like it or show it, only poor people who want to look rich do because they worship it

>>25344527
IQ is real but mensa is cringe.

>>25344422
>Yes. There aren't any corners of Africa nor the Middle East that selected for long-term planning. Europe, Asia and even certain parts of South America do have regions that experience what can be called "winter" which would demand long-term thinking associated with strong intelligence.

Holy shit what a retard. Deleting this embarrassing shit was a mercy on that anon.

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>>25342618 #
The criticisms are about how strong environmental effects are in brain development, the flaws of adoption studies (you think this is cope for IQ but prenatal confounders are real and powerful), hereditability not implying genetic causation, the fact that black people are not related to each other, and environment/genes being so intertwined that you could not solve this question except by understanding the genetics of intelligence, which is probably centuries away. We don’t even understand the genetics of height or hypertension in that way. But you see dumb black people and you think it must be genes because you’re too low iq to understand the science. Same goes to most of the retards in this thread.

>>25344529
You think you're smart but yet you haven't been able to notice how people hide inconvenient truths and simply parrot their obfuscations as if you yourself have figured something out.

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>>25344500
You can literally go to any country in the world and find huge masses of impoverished, retarded people if you go to the impoverished, retarded areas.
What exactly does a jpg of a bunch of poor, elderly africans prove?

>>25344539
It proved that when people like you start losing an argument you resort to whataboutism.

>>25342618
>. I credit this book with singlehandedly helping me to realize that large parts of the supposed rationalistic reason- and science-based world of academia, is just as dogmatic as any religion

>Waaah waaah smart people who know what they are talking about are dissagreeing with my redneck racist nonsense because they are muh dOgMaTiC Waaaaaaaaaah

It's so easy to see through this.

>>25344541
Whataboutism would be pivoting away to a different topic, i'm just using the exact argument you did:
>look at these poor retarded blacks
>this is proof all blacks are poor and retarded

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>>25344500
>Obviously not enough. Pic-related.
Clearly it is. Pic related.

>>25344537
I gave rational arguments and your response is “oh yeah? Well, like, people lie sometimes!” Low. I. Q.

>>25344409
Transposition, epigenetics, and horizontal gene transfer.

>>25344545
>Whataboutism would be
Posting a picture of low IQ white people in Appalachia as if it were an argument against the fact low IQ in Africa is responsible for poverty because you're a retard who thinks someone's humanity is based on their intelligence.

>>25344510
>iq is genetic!
>here are a bunch of policies that strongly incentivize intelligence
>hey look it worked, that proves iq is genetic!
People don’t understand how global capital systematically fucks over the third world. No, they’re just innately inferior! Duh!

>>25344560
>global capital systematically fucks over the third world.
Proof?

>>25344547
Your post was an example of obfuscating the topic at hand instead of applying critical analysis to it. This is probably why you erased it.

>>25344563
No it’s because I wanted to post it with a pic. Again: “complicated thinking is obfuscation!” It’s not even that complicated, you’re just low iq. It’s characteristic of low iqs to be suspicious of slightly complex arguments and to think it’s a trick. Post we’re talking about is here: >>25344535 Just admit you have a low IQ.

>>25344559
>Posting a picture of low IQ white people in Appalachia as if it were an argument against the fact low IQ in Africa
It's an argument against your PICTURE proving africans are retarded, because you tried to prove africans can't do agriculture by posting a photo of them being poor.

>>25344569
>“complicated thinking is obfuscation!”
"Complex", retard. Nothing about your post is such.

>>25344076
>Eugenics is just a theology to justify our rule by greedy parasites
>Opposite.
You are correct. However, the inbreds and nepo babies, as well as all the sociopaths and machiavellians seek to redefine the words and meanings in their favor. Their survival is obviously dysgenic, and so are their sabotage methods.

Natural selection is not necessarily eugenic, either. Autism, malaria resistance and manliness are the results of natural selection. They are horrible in so many ways, but were vital or seen as vital by the selection pressure.
>lethal allele being advantageous because of the malaria being even worse
It's like genetic democracy, only bad options.
>population seeped in social manipulation and hypocrisy, but reliant on engineers- breeds autism because truth is vital. However, social ineptitude was necessary for truth to ever emerge.
>dark triad and warlike traits
Mankind has lost so much to this. Sports and ritualistic combat are much better selectors than the escalating cycles of war, often killing the best of a population. Whether it's a king sending his generals to die out of envy, murdering geniuses for technology (Archimedes) or fire bombing major cities, the selection pressure isn't eugenic, it's selfish. Socialism etc. were also born from warfare and this very selfish survivalism and stubbornness.

>>25344573
>It's an argument against your PICTURE proving africans are retarded
The picture wasn't an argument that Africans are retarded, brainlet. It was a response to "THERE ARE AFRICAN FARMERS THO!" highlighting the fact mass starvation there is the norm.

>>25344562

NTA but I love the example of ivory coast cocoa farmers when it comes to this. They grow the cocoa that gets turned into chocolate for international markets. The cocoa gets shipped off to foreign factories where it's processed (by workers on machines build by workers) and sold off for a price that the farmer themselves can't afford.

So where does that price come from? A part of it enriches the white company owners and majority white share holders obviously. A part of it goes into the wages of working class white and browns who make the machines and the final chocolate itself. And if some of this income gets taxed, it supports NEET white Europeans and Americans on welfare sitting on their couches, smoking weed and posting on 4chan about long debunked books on IQ.

>>25344574
>complicated isn’t a synonym of complex!
You’re illiterate and probably a zoomer since using a word slightly out of its normal context confuses you so much. You have no arguments, still. Have fun looking down on blacks even though you can hardly read, this seems to be something of a zoomie pasttime.

>>25344580
NTA, but I've often considered if the lower intelligence - or more precisely, the lower production rate for intelligent units - is an adaptation to hunger cycles. After all, the brain is a major resource drain, and when put in a position of mass starvation in a place where food cannot be stored, intelligence might be a burden. However, the population would still need intelligence so some intelligence would remain, but the packs of homo sapiens would only produce less smart ones.

>>25344592
Don't seethe at me because you suck at writing, anon.

>>25344594
>he thinks intelligent people need to eat more to feed their big brains
Low iq and also fat.

>>25344594
This could imply genes that are common and work as inhibitors for intelligence and brain development, but a small portion would not inherit them at all. Thus, the African intellectuals would be real (Thomas Sowell, Archbishop Sara, etc.) but the overall black population would have an abysmal IQ. Until the environment changes and intelligence comes to its power and begins to outperform the inhibitors.
Africans have waged wars, traded, farmed, enslaved and scammed like the rest of humanity, but their intrasocial competition has yet to favor intelligence despite being a clear advantage on all fronts. This makes me believe that the environment has shaped the genes to be this way instead of humans.

>>25344598
Lmao. I'm thin. I eat a lot.
However, this is besides the point. Brains eat a lot of resources for all humans, except when they are underdeveloped. I'm proposing a situation where the Sub Saharan populations developed brain inhibitors to ensure survival past famine cycles. A tribe won't need >10% of its population being nerds when a few individuals will do. Whereas in places with winter, intelligence is advantageous for nearly everyone (parasites and bandits would need less of it, as well as servants). Malaria is a great example of nature throwing a "helpful" wrench to solve environmental issues with another.

Consider that the SSA races don't pass the mirror test until they are six years old - but whites pass it in six months, and East Asians in 9, and them being abysmally low on average and median iq.
If my hypothesis is correct, however, African populations need a new environment for truly eugenic effect. Technology might do it. So no worries.

I've never met a genuinely intelligent person who thought about IQ much at all. But I've met plenty of midwits who think they're very intelligent who talk about IQ all the time.

>>25344617
Likewise, I believe in helping humans, even the downtrodden. A mutualist environment will yield better eugenic competitions than cruel and machiavellian ones.
Helping disfigured and retarded kids will not make them reproduce, but it will prevent others from abusing them and thus corrupting themselves.

>>25344621
The geniuses have, as a rule, exceptional iqs. High ones, not low.
It's just a measure, however, and being an outlier cones with a cost. That cost is why the geniuses are humble.

>>25344580
So your response to "Sub-Saharan Africa exports many agricultural products and one third of their GDP comes from agriculture" is a photo of random starving africans? Holy shit that's retarded. Why am I even having this conversation?
>highlighting the fact mass starvation there is the norm.
retard, you posted one photo, of one group, in one place, at one particular time, in response to agricultural data from the entirety of the sub-saharan african region.
there is no world where anything you've posted proves literally any major macro pattern at all.
it'd be like posting a photo of alaska to prove the united states is arctic.

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>>25344640
>So your response to "Sub-Saharan Africa exports many agricultural products and one third of their GDP comes from agriculture" is a photo of random starving africans?
No. My response to a retard posting "AFRICAN FARMERS EXIST THO!" as a response to the fact aid programmes are misguided was to point out mass starvation is still the norm.
>you posted one photo, of one group, in one place, at one particular time
And it made you so mad you're still seething, lol.

>>25344672
>posting the leftoids just pretend not to understand things jpeg while you deliberately refuse to understand photos can't be used to prove large scale, macro level trends
lol retard

>>25344684
You're the one who didn't understand the photo, retard. You've been seething about it for like an hour now.

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>>25344692
You used that photo to prove mass starvation is normal in sub-saharan africa, yes? Here is a photo of Pyongyang. is North Korea an extremely wealthy urbanized country? Is it normal for North Koreans to live in urban areas?

>>25344640
>>25344672
Africa, much like India, suffers from overpopulation. The starvation is nowadays largely caused by rampart breeding since food can be produced in large quantities and stored with technology. Any country will end up starving and crowded if it doesn't limit reproduction. African culture and genetics are not designed for limiting reproduction, but female nature is. If the goal is for Africans to starve less and live in better conditions, the African women must be empowered.

India didn't revolt against technology, and now suffers from extreme poverty and pollution. Their average iq is higher than SSA but they have a much more advanced language, art and culture. However, their women are not powerful enough to fix the problems.

>>25344701
>You used that photo to prove mass starvation is normal in sub-saharan africa, yes
Not to "prove" so much as to illustrate.
>Here is a photo of Pyongyang
See pic-related: >>25344672.

You're a very stupid person, lol.

>>25344705
I'd say he is ideologically motivated, possibly young, not low iq.

>>25343336
That meme has Capital standing next to the The 48 Laws of Power. You're not supposed to take it seriously it's designed to make everyone mad.

If all men looked like women, dumb races would merely be races of bimbos. Thus eliminating racism.

>>25344708
Being ideologically possessed makes someone of middling IQ behave like a retard. Thereby he's functionally low IQ.

>>25344720
Until reality slaps him in the face and they go through the Phoenix cycle.

>>25344705
>Not to "prove" so much as to illustrate.
It does not illustrate (loling at the fact you thought this semantic autism would save you) that, because it is a photo of ~50 people in a small 20x20ft area on the ground.
Does the photo of Pyongyang's skyline "illustrate" (lol again) North Korea is a wealthy metropolis from coast to coast? Obviously not.
If you wanted to "illustrate" (lol for the third time) that, you would have to post data, because you are making a broad sweeping claim about a massive region of the world with forty different governments that 1.1 billion people inhabit.
Hope this helps!

>>25344731
Why don't you just see if African societies go through repeating starvation events.

>>25344705
>Your honor, you claim my evidence is invalid, but I'm not trying to "prove" my clients innocence, just illustrate it to the court!

>>25344731
>It does not illustrate
It does and that's why you're hung up on it. You're trying your best to make retard-tier arguments like "A PICTURE OF X DOESN'T PROVE ALL ARE X" as if that were the point of the picture. You're a retard, bro.
>>25344734
Because he's too busy having a melty about losing an argument on the internet.

>>25344742
he has thoroughly humiliated you thobeit

>>25344748
Believe what you want to believe, anon. It won't change reality and make you any less dumb.

>>25344621
this has and always been a midwit opinion

>>25344560
>Leftoids have resorted to denying the genetic basis of IQ *entirely*
Completely washed political faction that has descended into magic thinking

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>>25344734
Which African societies? The problem is that you're generalizing.
Do South Sudan and Liberia regularly have massive swathes of their population starve to death? Absolutely yes.
But in the vast majority of sub-Saharan African nations, people do not starve. The median sub-Saharan African is well fed, literate, owns a cell phone, and has access to basic utilities like electricity and running water. They own a small vehicle for transportation (like the shitty motorcycles indians love), a television, and a small home.
If you sincerely believe the average sub-saharan african lives on the edge of starvation, days away from death, that simply isn't true.

Saying mass starvation is the norm in sub-Saharan Africa, here's a photo of these starving africans to show it, is like saying most us citizens descend from indian tribes, here's a photo of some native americans to show it. It's just retarded.

>>25344775
weird example to use as Nigeria is in fact facing a hunger crisis with food insecurity increasing year on year since 2020

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>>25344775
>But in the vast majority of sub-Saharan African nations, people do not starve.
Lol

>>25344769
>Completely washed political faction that has descended into magic thinking
This post >>25344775 exemplifies such. They're in complete denial of reality.

>>25344583
Without capitalism they wouldn't even know what chocolate is
>debunked
LOL

>>25344767
>insecure midwit
If you're so high IQ, prove it by doing something with your life

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>>25344787
You literally just googled "Africa starving map" and posted the first result, didn't you?
The world hunger index measures things like dietary variety and undernutrition. Stuff like Iodine or Vitamin A deficiency is enough to get a nation put in the "serious" category. "Serious" does not mean starving, just that they don't all get the 13 vitamins and 16 minerals conducive to health/growth.
If you're a sweaty gamer who doesn't eat vegetables, congratulations, the world health index would rank you as "seriously" under-nourished.
I would say you could reasonably call the red countries, which make up about ~10% of the regions population, starving. The vast, vast majority of people in the orange and green countries do not starve. They have reliable access to staple foods.
>>25344786
This is only true in Northern Nigeria, where the jihadist organization Boko Haram enforces sharia law and indiscriminately massacres ethnic minorities. The hunger crisis there has nothing to do with an innate defect in intelligence that prevents Africans from farming. It is entirely caused by the fact that a terrorist organization controls the area.

>>25344828
>I got BTFO by a Google image search that took 3 seconds
Lol

>>25344767
>I CAN'T BREED

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>>25344806
Do you actually think the average african lives in mud huts and is starving? lmao
You can fly to Nigeria dude, it's pretty cheap. Go visit any city there, see what its like.
It's not particularly glamorous, but they definitely aren't starving.

Seriously, go visit them (or just take a look at them), your perception of them isn't rooted in reality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_populated_places_in_Nigeria

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>>25344828
>Proportion of children under age 5 who are affected by stunting
Lol

>>25344834
>post he's replying to directly disproves his claim
>bro I like BTFO [sic] you n sheit bro
it's so fucking funny to watch you people try to reason lmfao, it's like watching a wheezing fatty attempting to heave themselves step by step up a staircase

>>25344842
>You can fly to Nigeria
https://www.globalhungerindex.org/nigeria.html

You're retarded.

>>25344845
>post he's replying to directly disproves his claim
No it didn't, lol.

>>25344842
>Do you actually think the average african lives in mud huts and is starving?
Anon, you have to realize that these people don't know anything about the world. I'm not trying to be funny or trying to insult them, they seriously don't know anything about the world. At all. Their impression of the world comes from middle school social studies + years of retarded monetized shitter ragebait. I 100% guarantee you that several anons in this thread just learned from this thread that Nigeria has highways and skyscrapers. That's why they say things like this

>>25344852
uh oh, did someone get caught out and has to pretend he's not retarded? lol

>>25344853
>Around 40% of Nigerian children under five experience stunted growth due to chronic malnutrition. This means nearly four in every ten young children are too short for their age. Consequently, Nigeria currently has the second-highest rate of childhood stunting in the world.
Also, you're probably samefagging.

>>25344855
Yeah, the guy who thinks not capitalizing letters in his posts will convince others he isn't a samefag. Quick, use Paint to erase a (You) out of a screenshot because we all know if someone agrees with a retard it means the retard was right and there aren't simply multiple retards ITT, lol.

>>25344856
I'm >>25344853, talking to >>25344842. I'm not whoever you think I am and I'm not talking to you. Yeah, malnutrition's a big problem over there. This doesn't conflict with anything I said

>>25344844
Again, stunting isn't always caused by starvation. It can be caused by sanitation, pollution disease and vitamin deficiency - none of which I claim sub-Saharan Africa does not suffer from.
>>25344845
Fucking true. If only he had the humility to admit he was wrong instead of posturing to protect his ego.

>>25344863
>Yeah, malnutrition's a big problem over there
Not according to the post you agreed with you complete and total moron.

>>25344864
You were wrong on the internet. Stop being a fag about it.

>>25344864
>Meanwhile, Nigeria’s National Policy on Food and Nutrition aims to reduce the stunting rate among children under five to 18% by 2025 and cut severe acute malnutrition from 18% to 10%
They failed. It seems like the Nigerian government linked stunting directly to the prevalence of food insecurity in their country though.

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>>25344861
Nope, we're different people, you're just very obviously retarded. >>25344842 and >>25344845 are 18 seconds apart, so you can't cope by claiming we're the same guy. Multiple people read your posts and independently came to the conclusion you are a moron, sorry!
>>25344853
>they seriously don't know anything about the world. At all. Their impression of the world comes from middle school social studies + years of retarded monetized shitter ragebait. I 100% guarantee you that several anons in this thread just learned from this thread that Nigeria has highways and skyscrapers.
Super true, It's kind of sad honestly. I'm consistently shocked by how little normies know about the rest of the world. I met someone once who thought Paris was a country and France was a city in the Italy (???). I wish the education we gave children in regards to geography and history was way more comprehensive and difficult, it's kind of embarrassing just how little my countrymen know.

>>25344874
What are you talking about? The post I agreed with >>25344842 says nothing about malnutrition not being a problem

>>25344890
>Quick, use Paint to erase a (You) out of a screenshot because we all know if someone agrees with a retard it means the retard was right and there aren't simply multiple retards ITT, lol.
Holy shit you're pathetic, lol.

>>25344890
>I'm consistently shocked by how little normies know about the rest of the world.
It's sad, honestly. You ever see that map with the red dots on it where they asked Americans to point out where Iran was? Tons of the dots weren't even in the right general area. I shouldn't be surprised, but I'm always surprised
>>25344895
Followup to this post -- because I know someone will quote the "they're definitely not starving" bit at me, malnutrition and starvation are not synonymous terms.

>>25344895
The guy you're agreeing with was triggered by a picture of starving Africans and has been sliding for hours about how Sub Saharan Africa, the region of the world with the greatest food insecurity, is actually well developed. He's moron and so are you.

>>25344861
>it's simply not possible that multiple people think I'm retarded okay! it's NOT, OKAY!! IT'S JUST NOT POSSIBLE!!!
fascinating

>>25344887
>They failed. It seems like the Nigerian government linked stunting directly to the prevalence of food insecurity in their country though.
On Nigeria in particular, there is a quasi-civil war between them and the Islamic Insurgency I was talking about in the North of the country, so I would expect malnutrition to be a problem in those regions.
The vast majority of stunting in Sub-Saharan Africa is caused by poor sanitation or vitamin deficiency, though, not acute malnutrition.

>>25344903
>malnutrition and starvation are not synonymous terms
Pedantry isn't going to save you any more than it saved him, anon. You're both retards.

>>25344701
pyongyang is basically their only city. it is urbanized but so was the soviet bloc. don't be misled by a few high-rise buildings

>>25344913
>vitamin deficiency
i.e. Malnutrition.

>>25344897
Haha, it's so obvious you know you're wrong because you're going out of your way to talk around my best arguments (like the 18 second gap vs. 60 second cooldown, or how you ignored all of >>25344828 after I posted it).
This is not how people who are sure of their ideas choose to argue. I will keep going until you admit you are wrong or stop replying. There's no shame in giving up this far in, anon :D

>>25344907
I'm not agreeing with everything someone's said in this thread. I haven't read the whole thread and I have no intention of doing so. I'm agreeing with one post in this thread, as I've said before
>>25344915
It's not pedantry. A child suffering from malnutrition is suffering from a different thing than a child suffering from starvation. You treat them differently, they have different prognoses, etc. It's like saying that stage 1 cancer is literally exactly identical to stage 4 cancer because they're both cancer

>>25344923
>Haha, it's so obvious you know you're wrong because you're going out of your way to talk around my best arguments
You haven't made any good arguments, anon. You stated things that are factually incorrect and began sliding when you were called out on them.
>SOMEONE AGREED WITH ME!
So? I get you don't have any real friends so you get a little rush when you find a like-minded retard on an anonymous message board but that doesn't mean you aren't retarded, anon.

This board no longer justifies its existence.

>how Sub Saharan Africa, the region of the world with the greatest food insecurity, is actually well developed
Super obvious strawman, nobody thinks sub-saharan africa has well-developed infrastructure or a diversified economy comparable to that of any developed country.
All we're saying is that the vast majority of sub-saharan africans do not starve (which is objectively and obviously true, why do you think their population has skyrocketed over the last two decades?) and that there are plenty of urban areas there (which there are, I linked you a wikipedia page of 200 in just Nigeria)
Very curious to see your next cope :)

>>25344943 (intended for >>25344907)

>>25344828
You don't think having part of your country controlled by retarded terrorists is indicative of a low IQ society?

>>25344927
>It's not pedantry
Yes it is.
>>25344943
>All we're saying is that the vast majority of sub-saharan africans do not starve
Shifting the goalposts.

>>25344823
This is exactly what I mean, like when did I even claim to be high IQ?
Intelligence (in a general sense) is THE political issue of our time

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>>25344950
>Yes it is
No, it isn't. They're different things. Starving people suffer from malnutrition, but you can suffer from malnutrition and not be starving. This screenshot is from the World Food Program USA

>>25344947
No. Was Europe low IQ during the many Protestant-Catholic wars of the 16th and 17th century? Was the Kingdom of Castile low IQ because it took them hundreds of years to conquer the muslim kingdoms of Iberia?
The fact of the matter is that its just a pain in the ass to get religious extremists to stop being retarded religious extremists. Totally quashing a group like that is a very slow process that takes many decades.

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>>25344947

>>25344961
>Was Europe low IQ in 1500 AD?
Yes?

>>25344950
>Shifting the goalposts.
This has literally been the point of the argument since here >>25344459 when you argued sub-saharan africans were fundamentally too stupid to engage in any sort of agriculture because they would dig the seeds up and eat them.

lmao.

>>25344960
>Starving people suffer from malnutrition, but you can suffer from malnutrition and not be starving
Niggling over the difference between starving and malnutrition when the point was about underdevelopment of food related infrastructure is an example of pedantry, anon. For another example of pedantry see the post above where the OG retard tried to say vitamin deficiency isn't malnutrition (>>25344913) and dropped the subject when called out on it.

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>>25344968
>Yes?
Did you not take the position that IQ is genetically determined, the result of thousands of years of natural selection rather than education?
If that is the case, how would the people of Europe have gone from low IQ in 1500 to high IQ now?
Would this not mean the people of Africa would be as intelligent as the people of Europe were their nations to be as developed?

>>25344970
>I misunderstood why a picture was posted and made a bunch of posts exemplifying I didn't understand, tried to force a strawman about single pictures not representing everyone, got BTFO on a slide I made about Sub Saharans not actually being malnourished while making strawman about thinking all of Africa is mud huts, and now I'm declaring victory in an argument that largely existed in my own head
Got it.

>>25344980
>niggling over the difference
You're trying to make it sound like "malnutrition" and "starvation" are two words that are so close they're interchangeable, with maybe some minor differences mostly of interest to doctors. This isn't the case at all. Again, think of the cancer example -- it's not a perfect analogy, not meant to be one, but it illustrates the point I'm trying to make pretty well. If a doctor tells you you have stage 1 cancer (suffering from malnutrition) you might feel fine, but if a doctor tells you you have stage 4 cancer (suffering from starvation) you're on death's door. Are they both cancer (imperfect analogy, but lack of access to food)? Yeah, absolutely. Are they both bad? Yeah, absolutely. Are they the same amount of bad? Not at all. Are they the same thing? Not at all. Are they close enough to being the same thing that the difference between them is medical semantics? No, not at all
>the point was about underdevelopment of food related infrastructure
This still doesn't help you, because the difference between malnutrition and starvation is that vast. A nation suffering from high rates of malnutrition is in a very, very different state than a nation suffering from high rates of starvation. Doesn't mean that a nation suffering from high malnutrition rates is completely fine actually with no problems regarding food infrastructure, not at all what I'm saying. But it does mean that it's doing far better than a nation with high starvation rates. I'm not sure why you're fighting me on this, to be honest. You can just say "I thought they were close enough to be synonyms, but it's still very bad that a nation's food infrastructure is so underdeveloped it has high malnutrition rates" and I'd agree with you, because that's a true statement

>>25345004
>You're trying to make it sound like "malnutrition" and "starvation" are two words that are so close they're interchangeable
Nope.
>This still doesn't help you, because the difference between malnutrition and starvation is that vast.
My argument isn't that Africans are starving and not merely malnourished, anon. However, the fact cycles of famine are common to the region, as another anon pointed out hours ago, emphasises the pedantry to which you morons have resorted.

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>retards ITT can't admit Africans share any fault for Africa being an undeveloped shit hole

>>25344986
>Did you not take the position that IQ is genetically determined, the result of thousands of years of natural selection rather than education?
This is not my position, this is scientific fact.
>If that is the case, how would the people of Europe have gone from low IQ in 1500 to high IQ now?
You don't think there have been any evolutionary pressures that might have selected for high IQ in the last 500 years?
But also it's obvious Europeans 500 years ago were smarter than Africans now, which you know.
>Would this not mean the people of Africa would be as intelligent as the people of Europe were their nations to be as developed?
If they were as intelligent as Europeans they would b developed, but they're not. You're putting the cart before the horse here.

>>25345028
I love that documentary so much. Based chinks can get away with it.

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>>25344980
You said, in >>25344580 three hours ago:
>mass starvation [in africa] is the norm
You said again, in >>25344672
>[I was pointing] out mass starvation is still the norm.
You said for a third time: >>25344734
>Why don't you just see if African societies go through repeating starvation events.

So it is very obvious you have been arguing since the start that most or all people in sub-saharan africa starve. No reasonable person could possibly interpret "mass starvation is the norm" to mean anything other than that.

You were NOT arguing that most Africans were deficient in iodine, or vitamin A, or B12, because if you were you would've said that when I said >>25344828
>[most africans, don't starve they just] don't all get the 13 vitamins and 16 minerals conducive to health/growth.

But you did no such thing. You instead continued to insist that most africans starve, and only an idiot would doubt this.

It is only now, that it has been proven beyond shadow of a doubt that you were wrong, that you pivot to claiming you only thought they were vitamin deficient the entire time, that what you were really arguing is that they just had underdeveloped food infrastructure!

To me, this all feels really pathetic and cowardly. Honestly sincerely from the bottom of my heart anon, I would never ever abandon something I had argued so fervently. I would fight till the bitter end, or admit defeat and thank my opponent for teaching me something. You can claim you don't care, but you do, because you've been arguing about this for three hours. For three hours you argued something you're now too embarrassed to admit you ever believed.

We would all respect you a lot more if you admitted defeat and stopped arguing. You could turn this into a nice story about humility, about you overcoming your ego and admitting imperfection. Everyone would clap and cheer and go "good for you, anon", it's a virtue to admit failure. You won't do this though, because you are fundamentally a pathetic person who values saving face over intellectual honesty. You will reply with something like "libcuck btfo" or ">getting this mad over my picture xd" because you don't really care about words, or arguments, or ideas, you place your pride above truth and beauty. I hope some day you come to terms with how your ego has stalled your intellectual development. I really do mean that sincerely and not as an insult.

I used to feel the same way you do - that africans were idiots and nothing could be done for them. The only difference between me and you is that I cared about BEING correct more than I cared about FEELING correct, so I read what africans had to say on the matter - why they were the way they were. Eventually, I realized I misjudged just how incredibly difficult it is to build a nation from the ground up, and that I'd be no better than them in their position. I changed my mind. I hope the same can be said for you some day. That's all.

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>>25342817
>You have to be incredibly dishonest with yourself and intellectually incurious to put Ethiopians, Angolans, Nigerians, Botswanans, Namibians, Guineans, Malawi, Kenyans, Tanzanians, Somalis, Eswatini, Zambians, Sudanese, Eritreans and Ugandans into the single category of "black", and then claim all "black" people are biologically doomed to idiocy.


the reason all of subsaharan africa is grouped together is because of the similiarly low levels of technological and civilizational development they all achieved.

>there are lots of ways to be smart, but only one way to be dumb

they're all similiarly dumb

>>25345068
>tl;dr
You were wrong on the internet, anon. Stop being a fag about it.

>>25342896
>Unfortunately its going to bump again till 300 replies, most of which between 5 anons talking about politics and nothing about the book.
How did he know?

>>25345028
no, you are the retard for being so intellectualy helpless that the only reason you can think of is "must be IQ!"

>>25345121
>the only reason
Not the only but certainly one of the main ones (hence not being able to overcome them).

>>25344936
No, OP is a smart boy. He wanted this. The clever bastard.

>>25345015
>fact cycles of famine are common to the region
Not really. Not all of africa. The horn of africa maybe and parts of the Sahel,

The bigger problem is food security and malnutrition which is more general.

No, i didnt come here to fight.

>>25345101
I know this board.
I know leftoids and rightoids.
They are both a miserable lot when it comes to these topics.
Its no different really if you posted a Pic of the Bible, fedora tipping and tradlarping ensue.

>>25345015
>Nope
It's fine, we all do this kind of thing here. That's the nature of /lit/ slapfights
>My argument isn't that Africans are starving and not merely malnourished
That's fine, my point is that the two are very different things. I think you're referencing an earlier segment of this argument, but it wasn't a segment I was involved in. I started us (you and me) off by agreeing with a poster who said that they weren't starving, I then said that famine and malnutrition aren't the same thing, you said that was pedantry. As far as I understand this is where we are
>cycles of famine are common to the region
Not particularly? The region suffers very badly from food insecurity and malnutrition, but not typically famine. I know it's surprising, and of course they shouldn't happen at all, but famines are rare and usually localized to warzones, disaster areas, things like that. They have a proximate cause. It's not like the entire area's always in a famine. Again, stressing that this doesn't mean everything's fine, but it does mean that the image you have in your head isn't accurate
>pedantry
The difference between "very bad food insecurity" and "famine" is piles and piles of dead bodies, anon. It's not pedantry to insist on an important distinction

>>25345214
You're an idiot.

>>25345255
Okay.

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>>25345243
>That's fine, my point is that the two are very different things
No one is arguing they aren't you fucking moron.
>Not particularly?
Yes particularly, retard. The region has more periods of famine than any other.
>insecurity and malnutrition, but not typically famine
The former leads to the latter, moron. Again, hence the region under discussion having more periods of famine than any other in the world.
>pedantry
You are extremely pedantic.

>>25345068
>"erm you said X but you didnt clarify to a pedantic level so you're wrong"
>"yes X is happening but why didnt you use 10,000 words to be extremely specific?"
>"i dont have autism, you do"
>"anyway you should really do better in the future, really have humility over the internet"
>"i am not a gay libcuck i am unbiased"
>"but also i've been whining about chuds and believe african niggers arent retarded for an entire day"
Why We Were Thrown Out of Helicopters, by Anon A. Autist

>>25344817
>Without capitalism they wouldn't even know what chocolate is
They still don't. That was the whole point. The third world will never know many luxuries that first world has on their expense

>>25345274
Not even all the posts he attributed to me in that are mine. He got mad about a picture and started arguing over a specific word and wrote that essay after being BTFO on his own slide. Easily one of the dumbest people on this board.

>>25345262
>The former leads to the latter, moron
Not that anon, but:
No one is arguing they aren't linked. Of course a nation that's malnourished due to a lack of variety/quantity in food would be more vulnerable to famine. But it would be super retarded to say a nation is always in famine because it's always vulnerable to famine. Countries can be "food insecure" for decades and never fall into famine. It's like saying having a mutation that triples your risk of lung cancer means you already have lung cancer, even if most people with that gene never got lung cancer.
It's definitely not semantic.
>>25345243 is right when he says:
>The difference between "very bad food insecurity" and "famine" is piles and piles of dead bodies, anon. It's not pedantry to insist on an important distinction

>>25345274
>>25345283
you're literally doing the the thing that post said you would do, lmfao
>You will reply with something like "libcuck btfo" or ">getting this mad over my picture xd" because you don't really care about words, or arguments, or ideas, you place your pride above truth and beauty

>>25345292
Your word has been demonstrably proven worthless this entire thread, I'm no more likely to not call you a libtard or a retard or anything else than I am to respect your pleas of "Don't break my nose"

>>25345289
>No one is arguing they aren't linked.
No, they're just ignoring the fact they are.
>>25345292
I still haven't read your post and the part you highlighted are things I already told you many times throughout the thread (i.e. you were BTFO in an argument because you didn't understand why a picture was posted).

>>25345297
You have been completely and utterly gaped throughout the course of this thread. You started this off thinking africans were literally so retarded they dug seeds out of the ground to eat them (lmao) and ended it arguing malnutrition can sometimes prelude starvation so they're basically the same thing.

you and your buddy can jerk each other off as much as you want, but it's self-evident to everyone else how little world knowledge you had going into this thread.

actually hillarious

Is all behavior determined by genes and iq?

>>25345306
That's not what happened at all. You had a meltie about a picture that was posted and made up a strawman in your head about it. Even after being corrected multiple times you kept at it. You then lost a slide argument about the frequency of starvation in Sub Saharan Africa while writing another strawman about the people disagreeing with you thinking all of Africa is mud huts. To top it off, you stupidly made an argument that vitamin deficiency and malnutrition are different things. After that you wrote an essay seething about the nonsense above so you could pretend you weren't wrong on the internet.

>>25345262
>No one is arguing they [famine/malnutrition] aren't [the same thing] you fucking moron.
You said the distinction was pedantry?
>The region has more periods of famine than any other.
Yes, it does. This doesn't contradict what I'm saying
>The former leads to the latter, moron
Not always? Again, I know this is surprising, but like >>25345289 said one doesn't imply the other. Famines in sub-Saharan Africa are typically caused by local, immediate natural disasters or regional wars. It's not like a region suffering from malnutrition could break into famine at any time but doesn't through sheer luck. Granted sometimes this is the case, and ramshackle economies don't help any, but more often it takes a civil war ravaging all shipping routes or a long, persistent drought
>you are extremely pedantic
I already explained how it's not a pedantic difference
>>25345300
>they're just ignoring the fact that they [malnutrition and famine] are linked
I'm not ignoring this fact, I'm saying that the two are so different from each other that they're completely distinct kinds of crises. Yes, they're linked, but a region suffering from malnutrition is sharply, cleanly, and horrifically distinct from a region suffering a famine

>>25345306
>vitamin deficiency and malnutrition are different things
Before you get pedantic and start arguing about that too: vitamin deficiency is a form of malnutrition. That reminds me, that argument was made when the fact ~1/3 of the children are stunted because of malnutrition was brought up. Instead of just admitting you were wrong you wrote the aforementioned retard tier post even after seeing the Nigerian government itself saw it as a problem due to food scarcity.

Also, this: >>25345297 wasn't me. It was some other anon who actually read your retarded seethe essay for some reason.

>>25342411
The book is decent but most racial-IQtards are too stupid to use this information responsibly for the common good of all mankind. Instead preferring to use it as ammunition in their retard slapfights despite not actually understanding the theses presented in the book

>>25344583
Based NEET aristocracy

Only 30+ posts left.

>>25345317
>To top it off, you stupidly made an argument that vitamin deficiency and malnutrition are different things.
How could you argue they aren't?
Go two months without meeting your recommended daily allowance of vitamins and minerals, you'll feel slightly worse.
Go two months without eating, you will literally die.
In what world are these comparable things?
>Africa while writing another strawman about the people disagreeing with you thinking all of Africa is mud huts
You literally claimed africans were so stupid they couldn't be taught agriculture because they'd dig seeds out of the ground to eat them. Lmao. Yes, dumbass, you absolutely have a ridiculous view of african people based off of all the retarded shit you've said.
I don't want to use the word racist because it's moralizing, but your conception of the average african person is just detached from reality. Go visit Laos or something, seriously.

Why does this book make people seethe so much?

>>25345318
>You said the distinction was pedantry?
I said you were being pedantic in your previous posts and you were.
>This doesn't contradict what I'm saying
It highlights the fact that your previous posts were attempts at slides (which you lost anyway, lol).
>Not always?
Did I say "always" you fucking clown?
>it's not a pedantic difference
You're a pedant.
>I'm not ignoring this fact, I'm saying that the two are so different from each other that they're completely distinct kinds of crises
Then why do NGOs use the former as an indicator of how close you are to the latter you fucking pedantic moron? Holy shit you're dumb.
>Yes, they're linked
Which is the entire point you fucking retard. Holy shit.

>>25345343
>How could you argue they aren't?
Because vitamin deficiency is a form of malnutrition, retard. See >>25345328. Not reading the rest of your bullshit.

>>25345328
The argument is about starvation and famine you retard, nobody on the face of the earth thinks the average african gets all the vitamins needed for healthy growth.
Obviously a child who grows up living off of rice, maize and yam will be stunted, literally nobody is arguing otherwise.

>>25345350
I like how you deliberately avoid reading the things I post because you know you'd be unable to respond to them, lol. Like a child covering his eyes with his hands. Let me say it again:
>You said, in >>25344580 three hours ago:
>>mass starvation [in africa] is the norm
>You said again, in >>25344672
>>[I was pointing] out mass starvation is still the norm.
Were you claiming that the median african doesn't meet their recommended daily intake of vitamins or minerals, or that the median african is constantly on the brink of starving to death?

>>25345355
>The argument is about starvation and famine
No, retard. That's a slide you went on because you didn't understand why a picture was posted. You did this after you were made fun of for trying to argue against a strawman you made up about thinking 1 picture represents all of Africa all of the time. All you've done is argue against a made up extreme version of a point that was made based on chud phantoms that haunt your mind. You'll then say something incredibly stupid, get called out on it, then resort to pedantry over something no one claimed in the first place. You're honestly one of the stupidest people I've come across on this website and every post you've made ITT serves as an example of why you have no friends.

>>25345347
>pedantry
I don't know how I could better explain myself on this point, to be honest
>slides
Nobody's sliding. I'm insisting on a difference and you're saying the difference isn't meaningful. I'm making and defending two specific, narrow claims in our argument -- first, that famine and malnutrition are not the same thing, and second, that food insecurity/malnutrition doesn't mean famine is imminent, or unavoidable, Look at the top of our argument >>25344927, where I explained this already. This started because I stressed that malnutrition and starvation weren't the same thing and you said this was pedantry >>25344915
>Did I say "always"
You said food insecurity/malnutrition leads to famine, hence the region under discussion having more periods of famine than any other in the world in this post >>25345262. This makes it sound like food insecurity/malnutrition causes famine, or that malnutrition/food insecurity inevitably leads to famine given enough time. This isn't the case, like I already said. I've already explained why this is an important distinction to make
>Then why do NGOs use the former as an indicator of how close you are to the latter
Because the two are linked and a region suffering from severe malnutrition is closer to famine, which... yeah, that's true? I don't disagree with this. I'm not sure why you think this is some kind of gotcha

>>25345361
>I like how you deliberately avoid reading the things I post because you know you'd be unable to respond to them
No, retard. I don't read large sections of your posts because it has been well established you're retarded and will be disingenuous toward any response I write.
>You said, in >>25344580 three hours ago:
>>mass starvation [in africa] is the norm
>You said again, in >>25344672
>>[I was pointing] out mass starvation is still the norm.
Is famine more common to Sub Saharan Africa than any other region in the world? Yes. Simple as. No need to pretend stunted growth has nothing to do with malnutrition or strawman the idea it's being argued all Africans are starving all the time, retard. Fuck you're dumb.
>the median african is constantly on the brink of starving to death
Lol, see?

>>25345101
OP here
There is nothing, and I mean genuinely nothing, that claws and scrapes at the twisted soul of the leftoid than the genetic nature of IQ
It is a heretical doctrine for them, it undermines everything they believe about class, race, historical development etc
They can't help but react with hysterical religious outrage when you bring it up, the sheer amount of energy that has been put into "debunking" The Bell Curve is staggering when you actually look into it
And of course it has fallen flat every time

>>25345372
The argument wasn't about starvation, really? Let's see what started this:
>Did you know they spent a tonne of money trying to teach Sub-Saharan Africans how to farm but the subs just kept digging up and eating the seeds?
>There are plenty of sub-saharan farmers.
>Obviously not enough. Pic-related.
>That photo doesn't prove anything, though
>[I posted that picture to highlight] the fact mass starvation there is the norm.
There's no surer sign a person has lost than when they try to claim the thing being discussed isn't part of the argument.
also:
>You're honestly one of the stupidest people I've come across on this website and every post you've made ITT serves as an example of why you have no friends.
you're SO assmad that you lost this argument LMAOOOOOOOOO i love it. legendary fucking seethe. and to think you called my response a metldown, lol.

>>25345382
>sperg
Not reading that, sperg. You lost. Simple as.

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>>25345386
>>25345387

>>25345387
Ok. I hope you have a nice night, or morning, wherever it is you are. I'm going to donate to Action Against Hunger now

>All the valuable posts were ignored in favor of a tit for tat

>>25345389
Cool. Post the receipt, poorfag.

>>25345384
So many funny things in your post:
>Is famine more common to Sub Saharan Africa than any other region in the world?
Obvious goalpost shift from "starvation/famine is extremely common" to "starvation/famine is more common". These are totally different claims.
>or strawman the idea it's being argued all Africans are starving all the time,
Ah, but I didn't say you claimed all africans were starving all the time, I said you claimed the median african was starving. I think that's a fair interpretation of the statement "mass starvation [in africa] is the norm", no?
If I told you "traffic in nyc is extremely common", you would assume there is usually traffic most of the time, yes?
>Fuck you're dumb.
He's so mad he used the wrong your when calling me retarded, lmfao.

please know i find your meltdown so funny i have screenshot it and put it in my "epic wins" folder.

>>25345277
How is it at their expense?
What are they losing in this transaction?

>>25345396
>another sperg
Not interest, sperg. You lost the debate and have been having a meltie about it for several house now.