>>25366270
BASED

>>25366270
New unknown philosopher from the past?

>>25366270
Babe wake up, new unc slop just dropped

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>>25366270
>tfw no trojan war update found or atleast the little iliad book.

>>25366305
Probably, almost certainly.
But techfags are the ones uncovering lost literature for fun and out of their own pocket, not you, so you're not in much of a place to complain.

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It do be like that.

A bit lame but obviously it's early days and I'm sure there will be some good stuff in the library somewhere. I'm mostly hoping for unknown mythologies or foreign ethnographies or details of extinct languages.

>>25366489
>I want more new old stuff
Why not just go for new new stuff

>>25366318
>my ancestors
You'd be proud if you took a shit that big

>>25366658
Because history enriches the soul

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>>25366270
>PHerc. 1667 is what survives of a larger roll: earlier attempts to open it by hand — in the nineteenth century, and again in 1969 and the 1980s — destroyed its outer layers and left only the compact inner core, about 8 cm of an original height of 19–24 cm.
Why were old researchers like this bros
>uhh unrolling the first 50% of the scroll didn't work lets keep unrolling it instead of waiting for technology to improve

I don't trust AI to do this kind of work, at all.

>>25367430
they had balls to be frank

>>25366270
Who cares? it's just going to be read by some university department tranny.
Classics departments have been hollowed out corpse full of dilating, manbsians for a long time now.

>>25367435
Can you articulate your concerns?

>>25368475
Imagine if one of those scrolls contained an earlier edition of a known text. It might have significant variations in word order, elided content or additional content. Since LLMs are designed to guess words based on previously fed data, it would be likely to alter the text towards known versions and away from its variations. The result could be that is difference is lost.

For ancient poetry or philosophy the exact wording is perhaps less controversial than if, say, a New Testament fragment showed up. When it comes to a subject area over which much ink has been spilled and every amount of analysis has already been conducted, very slight differences between the actual text and the AI interpretation could have large impacts on the field. In general the more significant the manuscript discovery is, the more controversial it is. When there is significant controversy all doubts will be explored and nobody will be willing to base their research on AI interpretations that are fundamentally ambiguous. In other words a major find recovered in this manner won't actually do anything to the field but create a giant question mark, which is what the charred texts already are. It's a bit of Frankenstein archaeology going on here, nobody is going to want this in a field that prizes expertise in reading obscure scripts and studying penmanship.

>>25366270
From the preprint, here's what they were able to translate
>« … the similar …»
>« … impulses … »
>« … so far as … this or to have … that … »
>« … that befits on the whole still … there
will be fear and … the great and long …»
>« ... and the impulse ... For/towards each of
these things in this way ... we are by nature
... and for/towards the fulfillment of these
things that ... seem ...»
>« ... to men and beasts ... And above all,
each of the most common things constitutes
these ... For, [necessity? necessary?] ... »
>« ... natural ... therefore also ... according to
the ... this ... will be found, and lives will
make no progress whatsoever, as we have
no need for either pleasure or pain. In the
same way, also ... »
>« ... and thus lacking … I want to say ...
common ... accomplished ... to lack . . . and
. . . on the right parts towards the left ones.
There is an excess in the impulse … »
>« ...and of all similar things. For, according
to this kind/category, according to which
impulses exist by nature, there will be that
which lacks nothing, so that one seeks
nothing more, but completes in every
respect as ... »
>« ... they approach completion. Moving
from these things to ... [λόγοϲ?], it
[τέχνη?] accomplishes within us all that
pertains to it, even though it cannot fully
complete nature. And it allowed ... »
>« … we will inquire into something, but we
will not grasp it, if in some way we depart
from ourselves and from our own nature,
and besides, in the same way as the
remaining arts may be said to be perfected
in one respect, but to be deficient in
practical wisdom in another respect…»
>« ... being that practical wisdom ... and to
be about it. This [sc. λόγοϲ] concerning the
mechanical arts seems to me to be very
distant from such a [conception?], and to
have the technical fulfilment that is, so to
speak, lame and something of such type
lacking, and concerning the ...»
>« … need none. Having certainly strained
ourselves to the utmost through research
and learning, we will no longer be inferior
to them in any respect, accomplishing in
like manner the things that befit them and
possessing the same practical wisdom as
they … »
>« ... to happen. And such being the goods
for us, even from the opposite evils there
will be neither anything good—let alone
beautiful—nor anything bad—let alone
ugly—nor happiness ...»
>« … being greatly wise and celebrated and ...
to praise ... as according to the eulogies …»
>« … still … Aristocreon … to possessed
things …»
Preprint is here: https://scrollprize.org/pdf/main.pdf

They think it's the 8th book of On Gods by the Epicurean philosopher Philodemus. We've never read this before. They read it by scanning it with a super high definition CT scanner and then they fed it through a very clever neural network. Cool shit OP. Hope they translate more of the library soon

>ancient scrolls deciphered
:o
>ancient stoic scrolls deciphered
:/

>>25368483
They are not using LLMs, retardo.

>>25368483
The AI here is used to detect ink and recollect the signs that go on to form letters. Reading, translation and interpretation is all done by humans.

>>25368857
>>25368600

If there is an ambiguous character it will not use any LLM to guess the character? It examines every character in total isolation and only interprets it for letter contour? If that's the case then this could be okay.

>>25369238
You know that you can read the linked post and the preprint to learn exactly how they did it, right? You know you don't have to make wild uninformed guesses because they tell you step-by-step how they read the scroll?

>>25369342
Yes, I lack the technical familiarity needed to grasp the process they are describing. I was hoping someone with a better understanding might assist me.

This is very much an instance of the general problem: arguments about text interpretation (the domain of philologists) will end up being highly technical arguments about machine learning techniques (the domain of computer scientists). It seems to me that there are a lot of computer scientists doing (very interesting) work on this but I do not know if they have enough comprehension of philology or archaeology to avoid the kind of issues I raised.

I'm open minded you do not need to be snarky, if you have some insight do share.

>>25369372
They are using a neural network to amplify the ink signal, so that it is more visible against the carbonized papyrus. Then papyrologists analyze the results.

>>25369238
LLMs and neural networks aren't the same thing. A neural network makes a LLM work, but they're separate kinds of technologies. It's like saying that a weedeater and a dump truck are the same thing because they both use an internal combustion engine

omg i heckin love scrollslop!

>>25369608
>>25369627
Thank you for helping me to understand this better. I am now open to the idea of using AI to study charred scrolls. To be honest this is like the first application of AI where I cannot readily think of impending negative/unintended consequences. Probably my idea of AI is unduly associated with internet-trawling LLMs.

>>25369693
>this is like the first application of AI where I cannot readily think of negative consequences
"AI" is a marketing term. Usually, AI means "employs a neural network." Here are some examples of technologies that use neural networks
>optical character recognition -- this is how the postal service automatically reads addresses on envelopes and directs mail to the proper location
>weather forecasting -- feeding gigabytes of data into neural networks to improve forecast accuracy
>medical imaging -- detecting tumors on MRI or CT scans
>speech recognition software of any kind
>text-to-speech software most commonly uses neural networks
>fraud detection -- large banks can automatically flag suspicious transactions to stop bank fraud
Now you know

>>25366318
so sick of this "crap"

why are Mediterranean types like this? I don't want to hate you guys but you make it so easy.

>>25368492
can't wait to own this on paperback if they translate the whole thing so I can read it.

>>25370690
It's not Mediterraneans posting it, it's indians and south Americans

>>25368483
>Since LLMs are designed to guess words based on previously fed data, it would be likely to alter the text towards known versions and away from its variations. The result could be that is difference is lost.
Holy pseud larp. None of it works that way.

>>25369627
>but they're separate kinds of technologies.
No they fucking aren't moron, an LLM is a particular kind of neural network.

So they *think* there is a Latin library there as well? Why didnt the excavate it?

>>25370710
Figures

>>25370715
Instead of insulting people and calling them larpers or other things, consider giving them the information you perceive they are missing, with a calm confidence, particularly since you know you are right and they are wrong.

>>25370731
It's difficult, expensive, and nobody wants to pay for it because we live in Kali Yuga.

>>25369238
It's not a fucking LLM

>>25367430
>waiting for technology to improve
that's the why, only the Chinese have that kind of mindset, old time archeologists wanted to do shit right then and there, like blowing up the first 10 layers of Troy's archeo site

>>25366270
I was hoping for missing histories and lost theatre plays, instead we're getting a million stoic commentaries by no name pseuds. This is some bullshit...

>>25370878
Not to mention, the US Military just paving over the temple complex that was an exact match for the geographic and architectural features that described Gilgamesh's tomb in as described in the epic of Gilgamesh

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>>25366270
>Four new fragments of Heraclitus have been found by an Israeli Research team working closely with the Vesuvius Project.
>The fragments, originally retrieved in a small lavatory in the preserved ruins of Herculaneum, reveals never before seen insight into Pre-Socratic philosophy.

The text:
>(Fr. 141): Just as the fighters in the palestrae go about their passions, changing with the passing of Dawn, so too does gender, which is fluid. For no man or woman, or person, is the same gender, and no gender is fixed.

>(Fr. 142): And if any person claims that usury is an injustice, and loudly cries in the city that large nosed individuals ought not plunder your coffers, remember that there is no change greater than the exchange of money. For what is change, but the drachmae in your pocket?

>(Fr. 143): It is true that I knew nothing; but it was I, and I am not. I know nothing except change, for there is nothing but change; and change is progress, and progress is eternal. And what progress would there be, without the eternal fight against racism, which white Greeks commit against Black Greeks? For there are many Greeks of many Races.

>These fragments shed new light on ancient and classical Greek society and challenge our preconceived notions about sex, race, and anti-semitism of antiquity.
>The World Heritage Foundation is already taking action to petition governing bodies and legislatures to rewrite historical documents and curriculum in light of these new discoveries.

What do you guys think? I'm excited to discover more about ancient thought.

>>25370878
Cope. Nowadays we can totally send minimally invasive probes to those places but the chinks are shitting themselves at the tought that those mythical ancient sites might reveal mediocrity

>>25371062
????? How retarded do you have to be to think chinks aren't doing archaeology out of fear
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanxingdui

>>25371077
Still waiting for Qin Shi Huang's mausoleum!

>>25371004
chuds ain't gonna like this one....

>>25370731
If it survived 2000 years it's probably best to just leave it until we know we can actually read the scrolls

>>25371813
I once heard archaeology described as a dying field because every discovery slays part of it forever. There's finds documented and left dormant everywhere because people aren't confident in being able to safely extract it with current technology. Odd stuff. I wonder how much of it will be the literary equivalent of, say, the Nag Hammadi library vs the untitled codex.

>>25371891
archaeology is the idea that you can dig holes in the ground and draw conclusions based on how deep the objects you find are
its the stupidest shit ever, shot after shot in the dark

>>25371898
imagine being this filtered lmao

>>25366270
Noice, thank u /lit/

>>25371891
It's a strange field. From what I've read, they think it was an Epicurean library that might've specialized in Philodemus's work -- working off memory here, so don't quote me. My bet is we get some new Philodemus, maybe some obscure Epicurean, but nothing wild. No Sophocles, no Aristophanes, no Heraclitus, but maybe we find some new Aristotle quoted in some fragment or another?

>>25371004
powerful... it really makes you think huh

>>25370690
this meme format is entirely in response to the sites rampant nordicism. In reality meds are humble and have appreciation for Nordic culture despite the clapback.

>>25372566
You are right that so far it seems that its mainly works of Epicureans that we've uncovered but from what I remember reading a couple of years ago the home libraries of the wealthy elites were usually split in two parts, the Latin and Greek, so far, from what I've read at least, we've only uncovered Greek texts, and even those seem to be haphazardly shoved and stored in almost random places, so there's some theorising that we still haven't reached the library proper. I mean it does seem a bit unlikely that the personal library of one of the wealthiest Romans alive at the time would only be "half full" by traditional standards, and not to mention that we'd expect it to be a central and huge part of the overall villa, nothing like what we've discovered so far. So there's still hope that we might unearth some long lost treasures.

>>25368492
>>« ... being that practical wisdom ... and to
>be about it. This [sc. λόγοϲ] concerning the
>mechanical arts seems to me to be very
>distant from such a [conception?], and to
>have the technical fulfilment that is, so to
>speak, lame and something of such type
>lacking, and concerning the ...»
>>« … need none. Having certainly strained
>ourselves to the utmost through research
>and learning, we will no longer be inferior
>to them in any respect, accomplishing in
>like manner the things that befit them and
>possessing the same practical wisdom as
>they … »
Ironic

More made up jewish bullshit yawn

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Based thread, and OP is a cool guy.