Hello, anons.Recently, I've become interested in socialism, specifically those that criticize capitalism, the market society, social disorganization, social inequality, and related issues.Unfortunately, however, the only socialist traditions I've encountered so far have been materialist, and I have philosophical objections to materialism. I'd like to know whether there is any variant of socialism that could reasonably be described as "metaphysical socialism." I realize that, to many people, this may sound like an unusual concept, but I'd still be interested in learning whether such a tradition exists.Finally, I'd like to point out that I'm not completely unfamiliar with this topic. I know that, in this context, some people describe Plato's Republic as a kind of "ideal communism." Even so, I'm not sure that this is the most accurate way to characterize the society Plato describes in The Republic. I should also admit that I haven't read the work in its entirety, only selected passages.
>>25396510I don't know enough about socialism to be that helpful but I know that there's utopian socialism which is more idealistic than marxist socialism
>>25396510maybe you're looking for Liberation Theology? It's Catholic, though.
>>25396510You are looking for Prussian Socialism
>>25396510Socialism is utter nonsense that wants to destroy the ancient concept of trading goods and ideas.I don't even know where to point you to a book that criticizes the very idea of trade, even Uncle Ted didn't do that.Maybe Posadism? Aliens arriving after the global commie nuke war to end all trade? That's the only thing I can think of.
>>25396597The poor are prostitute of the rich. If you support capitalism while poor yourself, you want your sisters and daughters running OnlyFans and selling themselves to the highest bidder.
>>25396609>you want your sisters and daughters running OnlyFans and selling themselves to the highest bidder.fucking hot.
>>25396609>The poor are prostitute of the richYou got anything that isn't an emotional non-argument?>WAAAHHHHH youre oppressing me by hiring me voluntarilyThen quit.>thats not fair! i deserve your stuff for free! gibs me dat!No.
>>25396510I’ll be unpopular for saying this, but the Frankfurt School makes some valid points in its critique of orthodox Marxism-Leninism and its bourgeois lifestyle. Of course, the only form of socialism I truly support is Prussian socialism. I recommend reading Oswald Spengler’s book on the subject.
>>25396629Prussian socialism was a literal disaster for germany and led to countless deaths, it created the modern schule system, petty nationalism, population dependence on welfare, raised soldiers and factory workers instead of humans, sacrificed the community for the state, and on and on, disgusting ideology that should be destroyed.
>>25396510why can't you just make up your own criticisms? why do you people depend on others to tell you how to think?
>>25396510I think the most profitable route is to essentially base the dialectical materialism of the orthodox Marxist tradition as one radical instance and reinterpretation that ultimately relies on the more thorough, Absolute idealist logic of Hegel. I am not super familiar with this field but i know some really cool stuff has been published in this including picrel.
>>25396619>A few people lay claim to almost all the resources>Everyone else is forced to either provide for them or die>Sheeple defend it for freeYou're not gonna be allowed on the yacht anon
>>25396510You have to be 18 to post on 4chan.
metaphysics is a bourgeois concept that has been primarily used to keep the working class enslaved, we're on to you, rightist
>>25396579Actually based economic system
>>25396750NTA but materialism's kind of gay
>>25396629>Prussian socialismIs that similar to National socialism?
>>25396597>>25396619>you're upset by poverty and commodification? wow i can't believe you welfare beggars want to destroy the flow of goods and ideas>i am very rational btw, stop being emotional
>>25396778nigga, just get a job.
>>25396781>bro bootstraps bro it's that easy
>>25396789Yes.
>>25396789>I shouldn't have to put any effort into acquiring resources>I shouldn't be required to provide a service to to my community>The government should give me all the resources I desire for free>The government should provide all those service I myself refuse to provide for free too>Also my system completely ignores how the government will provide those resources or services because I believe it should all just happen like magic and takes no human involvement or effortGood luck with that tranny. Don't even try denying it. You're a tranny.
>>25396753It isn't though, you're just soulless
>>25396629Btw I know Amory personally. Ill tell him thanks for the free publicity
>>25396893some people want to work and others don't. The people who want to work can provide food and other services to the people who don't. It's not complicated.
>>25396767Both, socialism and capitalism are fundamentally materialist ideologies.
>>25396510You'll want non-socialist anti-capitalism I think. Try distributism, start with The Servile State by Belloc.
>>25396579>Preußentum und Sozialismus stehen gemeinsam gegen das innere England, gegen die Weltanschauung, welche unser ganzes Leben als Volk durchdringt, lähmt und entseeltSpengler cooked with this one
>>25396510the materialism isnt necessary, read Deuteronomy
>>25396510Plato's Republic is literally a republic, it's even in the name. I have no idea how you think it's an ideal communism.Metaphysical socialism? A socialism without materialism, that's not possible because socialism's first principles are completely flawed. They don't take human nature fully into consideration, nor how to evolve it. Socialism assumes we are maximally evolved and therefore that socialism can work, which is highly foolish. We are not even there yet philosophically, and you want to create a metaphysical socialist state with no materialism? That's not going to happen, definitely nowhere near the 21st century. To actually create this type of system, you need to clean up humanity's contradictions first. This is difficult because of humanity's flawed collective ego at the top of intellectualism, simply look at academia. If I told you humanity is not consistently good and that we need to fix it, the majority would say, "Haha, good? To whom? Good is subjective!" Which is the dimwit's perspective. Good is universal, bad is universal, and it is a socially conditioned ego and miscommunication that stop intellectuals from focusing on the problem and solving it...Fix the logical consistency alignment, solve your problem.
>>25397655>Plato's Republic is literally a republic, it's even in the name.It's the name of the book you pseud, Plato never proposed a system or hypothetical place called "the Republic." Are you talking about the ideal city he describes in (the book) The Republic? That was run by a class of unelected philosopher kings.
>>25396778Oh sorry, my bad, you're right, commodities are LE BAD and evil, you're clearly the rational and clear thinking one here, I concede immediately.
>>25397657Focus on the substance, not the wrapping.
>>25397682just take the L, pseud
>>25397655It is not. It is called Πολιτεία. the polis, the city, something like that. The title itself is neutral towards the exact political form, which is why he discusses all the different possible constitutions ranging from monarchy to democracy. Plato settles in the end on either an aristocracy or one man rule, because he posits it as a analogy for unified reason governing a diffused set of passions and desires. In practice though, such a system appears much closer to communism than it does to traditional aristocracies/monarchies because the ruler class is not heritable, but meritocratic: everyone is expected to get the same education, and only the most promising students regardless of background or gender get trained into the leadership position. the elites are further expected to live in an austere manner, are not allowed to accumulate personal wealth or land, and keep everything in common for the sake of best managing the well-being of the warrior and laboring classes.Its kinda hard to deny that such a system structurally and aesthetically much more resembles the central commitees of the bolsheviks or chinese communist party, which are selected through experience and influence, are expected to live relatively austere, and work for the betterment of the working class, than it does medieval monarchies or aristocracies, whose main concern is accumulating respect and status amongst each other rather by displays of valor and wealth rather than better the living conditions of their subjects.
>>25396510This is the exact book that you want.
>>25397655Next youre going to tell us China is a republic.
>>25397805Not OP here.Perfect book for me.Thanks.
Hegel PhG
>>25397658This, what would we do without our vital middlemen!
>>25397815DPRK is.
>>25396619>You got anything that isn't an emotional non-argument?Holy projection.
>>25397925wish there was a site with hi res images of libraries belonging to academics. probably would be a great way to find books but most of the time you can only make out like 10 titles in a youtube video or something.
>>25396510Why not cut through all the babble and go to the inevitable conclusion sooner rather than later? Nothing else is ever going to come out of this.
>>25397791what a ridiculous post>In practice though, such a system appears much closer to communism than it does to traditional aristocracies/monarchies because the ruler class is not heritable, but meritocraticcommunism does not have a "ruler class", that's the whole point, what you are describing is liberal democratic capitalism>Its kinda hard to deny that such a system structurally and aesthetically much more resembles the central commitees of the bolsheviks or chinese communist party, which are selected through experience and influence, are expected to live relatively austereyeah except they didn't and actually lived much better lives than the working class>medieval monarchies or aristocracies, whose main concern is accumulating respect and status amongst each other rather by displays of valor and wealth rather than better the living conditions of their subjectsthis didn't happen
>>25399326>yeah except they didn't and actually lived much better lives than the working classEh, kinda. Still, the "luxuries" they enjoyed were a joke compared to those available to any Western millionaire, let alone a billionaire.t.grandson of a Soviet general
Be Plato 400 BC. Realize peasants are selfish, so you invent the "Noble Lie" about gold and silver souls to keep them in line. It works perfectly because everyone still believes in the cosmic order.Fast forward to the Middle Ages. The Church slaps a crucifix on the Platonic blueprint. You are a starving serf eating dirt, but you accept your place because of the Divine Right of Kings.Enter Nietzsche in 1882. He drops a sledgehammer: God is dead. Enlightenment science just shattered the cosmic anchor, meaning you can no longer use divine threats to make people behave and believe in a state-mandated myth.You cannot sell a pre-modern Platonic myth to a population that has basic literacy, newspapers, and smartphones. Modern workers aren't medieval serfs; they can read, and they see right through the propaganda.If you want to force a metaphysical myth onto a cynical, educated population that knows God is dead, you can't rely on voluntary faith. If you force it in the real world, you have to build the literal Ministry of Truth. Welcome to 1984. You get Doublethink, telescreens, and a boot stamping on a human face forever.But capitalism also can't be the answer. If it actually won the metaphysical war and satisfied the human need for religion, the West wouldn't have millions of Marxists, student activists, and cultural leftists trying to dismantle the system. Capitalism didn't satisfy the soul; it just created an existential vacuum that people are desperately trying to fill with radical politics.I only reply because I'm trying to shill my book on Amazon about the likely logical flow of the future. To have true metaphysical socialism, you can only do it in a post-scarcity model. And likely the only way to execute it is by trapping humanity inside individual pods.The collective state takes care of your physical body and survival entirely, while your mind is jacked into an infinite digital world. Because there is no God anymore, the machine allows humans to create their own private myths, forge their own virtual universes, and find their own absolute, individual meaning.
>>25399732Atheists: Religion is a bunch of nonsensical fairy talesAlso atheists: Nietzsche invented atheism in 1882 and freed humanity so now we can find meaning by wearing VR goggles
>>25400042>Also atheists: Nietzsche invented atheism in 1882 and freed humanity so now we can find meaning by wearing VR gogglesYes, literally. Including VR PORN.
>>25399421>Still, the "luxuries" they enjoyed were a joke compared to those available to any Western millionaire, let alone a billionaire.I made this point months ago on this board. Even the most corrupt and gluttonous Soviet commissar was nothing compared to the average Russian Oligarch.
>>25397938yeah when I want food I should just drive over to the farm and pick it myself, who needs middlemen
>>25396510that's just maoist thought to a tee, the whole idea is literally surpassing material conditions through collective will
>>25398860not an argument, cope
>>25400145you know farmers markets exist right? moronic urbanite socialist>tomatos grow on grocery store shelves!
>>25396510It’s amazing how immediately after graduating college I stopped believing in retarded shit like socialism. Didn’t believe the boomers who said it would happen but it did. I even took an economics class yet somehow still believed that shit was possible, probably because I was subconsciously trying to chase commie art hoe pussy.
>>25400206The fact that you thought an economic class somehow debunks socialism already tells me you are a perma midwit on whom education was wasted. You are more interested in slogans than the actual argument being presented because like every anti-socialist you literally don't have a good argument against it that's not twitter post size propaganda
>>25400202the farmer is obviously too busy farming to do a farmer's market more than very occasionally, that's why food was distributed through middlemen even thousands of years ago. never mind today, when your food can come from the opposite side of the planet and last on shelves or in freezers for months or years. imagine being a farmer and needing to hire another "farmer" to serve as your own store clerk to sell only your produce (you must have a large farm!), and every single farm out there needing to do this, when you could just sell it to a middle-man and eliminate thousands of unnecessary points of inefficiency and confusionpeople may rightly hate the middle-men for making money doing almost nothing relative to the ones further back in the chain, but they're a huge improvement to any market. well, one of them is anyway. when you're at multiple layers of middle-men you can probably start to shave some off. I used to buy/sell stuff for oil rigs, and the amount of unnecessary middle-men I could eliminate by just figuring out who the guy I just bought something from bought his shit from (often multiple layers deep) was depressing. although, I quit that job because honestly working as a middle-man just feels dirty. you could make 10k a day just by making some phonecalls and getting lucky in an interaction, or by knowing something someone else doesn't know. I would always feel like I was stealing from the guy I was selling to when I was able to win a bid and still make sometimes 400%+ profit on it. genuinely a profession that makes the people doing it immoral through its inherent incentives. but still a necessary one. anyway, I'm rambling.
>>25399326If you want to explain the ridiculous amounts of wealth displayed by aristocracy and monarchs you have two options: 1. it is a moral failing: they are greedy self-interested bastards that do not care for their subjects and simply want to enjoy a life of luxury to the cost of many lives. or 2. it is a structural feature: for a monarch to maintain power and diplomatic ties, they must acquire respect from other monarchs or nobles. To do this they need to display wealth, host feasts or festivals, give gifts to courtisans, and so on. A frugal monarch is an anti-social monarch, and therefore an unstable monarch. This second is what i meant. It is a feature of the system. But it is hard to deny that the result has been a great impoverishment of the lives of many serfs for the sake of elaborate feasts and suits of armor. Feudal systems are just kinda horribly inefficient systems that force others around them to be inefficient in a similar manner to maintain diplomatic ties, and as a result, the living conditions of their subjects do not get significantly improved.
>>25399326Communism obviously still has a ruler class, the central bureaucracy and its representatives. You literally can't have a society without a ruler class; such a thing has ever existed and practically can't exist.Maybe Laplace's Demon could create such a society by magicking it into existence (no doubt at the behest of an academic somewhere), but it would immediately begin to fall apart under the pressures of life.
>>25400242libstards love snake behavior sleight of hands or they just confuse themselves in silly abstractions. 1. not the case which is blatantly clear if you read history. to summarize, the correct assertion is rather, monarchies are uneven and you can have the the five good emperors or the bullshit later in rome and byzantium2.more confusing mess based on pop culture moral lessons ? idk whatever you get this idea from. The only thing correct is another abstraction that is generally more correct: that you do need to be powerful
>>25400242I don't care about ostentatious displays of wealth, the great merchant republics did this too (behind closed doors). Communists put on vast military parades but that's not "wealth".Where you have a strong point is that feudalism just sucks. It dragged Britain back for centuries when it could have been a merchant and naval power centuries before they got off their ass. This went on from Edward III's laws to keep peasants on their land, down through to the Tudors.
>>25400235>hurr durr farmers busy therefore we need communism bureaucracy and theftSocialists are insects.
>>25400309>the merchant class is all communists, actuallyhmmm
>>25400218>twitter post size propagandaOur future..Grim.
>>25399253>your /lit/ pilled BOOK!!!!, zir
>>25396781
>>25396920Or the people who want to work can prosper, and the ones who don't can starve. Even less complicated, and much fairer to everyone.
>>25399326>communism does not have a "ruler class"Which is why communism has never existed.
>>25396510You don't even know what capitalism means. you're a stupid dumb 20 year old fuck that hasn't even held a job longer than 4 months.
>>25400599>you're a stupid dumb 20 year old fuck that hasn't even held a job longer than 4 months.You see how capitalism makes us hate one another?
>>25400605so does socialism
>>25400605>its da capitalisms fault im a dumb moron who wants to destroy everything and fellate psychopaths
>>25400616>nooo faggot we need more healthcare>nooo you're the faggot we need more education>noooo faggots we need more safety>noooo you're the faggot for not working for us to get more healthcare and education and police
>>25400359>oh heavens, the dastardly merchant class is trading again, quick! steal all their shit and put them in a gulag! we're the good guys btw.
>>25400599>NOOOOOOOOOOOOO ITS GUD YOU JUST DIDN'T TRY HARD ENOUGH! IT'S YOUR FAULT! IF YOU WERE BORN POOR AND HAVE TO DEVOTE YOUR LIFE TO A DEAD-END JOB! IT'S YOUR FAULT, TRY HARDE
>>25400622You don't have the right to steal, we're very sorry.
>>25400622>nooooooooo you think everything is a dead-end job!!!! noooooooo i place the value of my life and define myself with my job because I'm a dumbass faggot that has nothing elseSTFU faggot, you can make 50k being a warehouse monkey at a grocery store. 50k is higher than average.
>>25400624That's true, which is why I don't exploit anyone's work!
>>25400631>exploiting is stealingOh the socialists with their word games, don't worry all of your property will be confiscated, there's no such thing as private property after all comrade :^)
>>25400630>WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE TO ASPIRE TO SOMETHING GREATER THAN YOUR JOB! SHUT UP AND GET BACK TO THE WAREHOUSE! YOU’LL BE ENSLAVED, PAID JUST ENOUGH TO STAY ALIVE AND YOU’LL BE GRATEFUL
>>25396510marxian class and value analysis is literally metaphysical
>>25400652how?
>>25400617>and fellate psychopathsLike praising billionaires that target the impoverished overseas and pay them pennies to enrich themselves off selling the goods they make?
>>25400669The government does the same thing but enforces it with aggression theft and murder, therefore statism is worse. What's your next lie?
>>25400673>What's your next lie?Where did I lie?>The government does the same thing but enforces it with aggression theft and murderThe government is the plaything of the oligarchsI'm not a communist
>>25400669The cost of living is much lower in Third World shitholes, and those employees are far from impoverished.In fact, they probably have better standards of living than NEETs like you.
>>25400605I hate you because you're a faggot. You would remain a faggot under any economic system.
>>25400644>WWWAHHHHHH I want to aspire to be something greater but I'm such a dumbass I can't even do a warehouse monkey job!!!!
>>25400689>actually they like working 14 hours a day 7 days a week for literal pennies and having to live crammed into rooms with 5 other people to scrape by whileCapitalists actually believe this?
>>25400685Oh good, so you admit governments are corporations but worse. Nothing more needs to be said.
>>25396510>Unfortunately, however, the only socialist traditions I've encountered so far have been materialist, and I have philosophical objections to materialismi think you might be interested in Georgism and/or Latin American forms of spiritual socialism during the 20th century. also what >>25396579 said.
>>25400622impotent rage
>>25396619>Give me your surplus labor wagie
>>25397805Capitalism is not a religion. It is a mode of production.
>>25402072a nigger-faggot-retard mode of production btw
>>25396510>Hello, anons.>Recently, I've become interested in socialism
>>25402089>Communism is nigger and faggotStrange blame shifting since the mode of production that is the indisputed champion of faggotry and niggerhood promotion is Capitalism, especially in the last 20 years. See Hollywood and the music industry.
>>25396510For all the banter around capitalism and socialism that has been going around for the last 10 decades, feudalism hasn't been taken enough into consideration. Wich is a sad thing because it combines the organization in hierarchies of capitalism with the despisal of petty-pathetic burgeois thinking of socialism. Many men of our days would be drawn into it, all those who are too intelligent for socialism and who have too much of a magnamonious nature to be petty defendants of capitalism.
>>25402122>feudalismThe promise of social mobility is the only thing that motivates most men, so they aren't going to like a system that had even less of it.
>>25402152the only thing that motivates soulless americans, maybe. the american would rather climb the corporate ladder, and do crack while gooning to incest porn, than have children. because he is a golem.
>>25402152No social mobility? Plenty of high-achievers were raised to the rank of nobility all throughout history. Goethe may be the most formidable example.
>>25402212goethe did not live in a feudal society, retard.
>>25402152>The promise of social mobility is the only thing that motivates most men,No it isn't. It's sex/ being a patriarch. We have social mobility now but how many men are just giving up because no pussy/ family?>>25402099This thread is such obvious spam from the resident commietranny spammer
>>25402122Except you can't climb the feudal hierarchy.You can climb the capitalist hierarchy simply by getting a job. Or better, starting a business.
>>25402152>The promise of social mobility is the only thing that motivates most menNot independence or self-respect? Says a lot about you.
>>25403306>Except you can't climb the feudal hierarchy.this nigga never heard of the merchant class even or destitute nobles-in-name-onlywhat happened to these nobles who held all the power? oh yeah, they were replaced by the merchants, because they lost all their power to them
>>25403416Oh right when feudalism stopped being a thing idiot.
