Why are there "feminist translations?" Why is this a thing that we apparently tolerate as a society? Most of all why is this a thing that the academia seems to tolerate? The worst condemnation I've ever seen academia give to bullshit like this is essentially giving it the silent treatment by not teaching with these translations in their classes, but not the universal condemnation as the politically motivated work of a crackpot fraud that you would get with literally anything else of this caliber. I wouldn't even want to read a "translation" that was openly twisted and editorialized to fit my own politics, so it just seems insane to me that this apparently flies with feminism and it is not more widely criticized.
>>25405895well, men and women see things differently, some times.
>>25405902Okay, and?
>>25405902Feminism is an ideology. It isn't just shit from a woman's perspective.Further, a translation should attempt to remain in the author's perspective and NOT be the perspective of the translator.
>>25405895I don’t know what the right is but Emily Wilson’s Odyssey is not a “feminist translation.” It’s just an iambic pentameter, plain language translation that happens to be by a woman.The right wing is extremely insufferable lately how they are still pretending things are “political” or “woke” just because a woman or non white person existed in proximity to it. Please just say that you hate Emily Wilson because she is a woman rather than pretend that her translation is “feminist” or “political.”
>>25406073I know this is bait, but I actually want to read Wilson's translation now out of contrarianism.
>>25406089My post is not bait. Emily Wilson’s translation is literally just what I described it as and it’s been co-opted by right swing schizos as part of their endless culture war tirade against literally anything that tries to be new or that has a woman or brown or gay person next to it.
>>25406073It both is and isn't a feminist translation. If a leftist praises it for being feminist, then it's feminist. If a right-winger criticizes it for being feminist, then it's not feminist and he's an overreacting incel chud who just did a culturewarino to distract us from Epstein and Israel.
>>25406073>It’s just an iambic pentameter, plain language translation that happens to be by a woman.Regardless, the translation is still bad.
>>25406073https://eidolon.pub/women-who-weave-c3a8dd322447
>>25406124To be fair its not a distraction if half the human race wants to halt genetic reproduction because of "vibes"
>>25405895academia built feminism to fleece women out of tuition money. That's why. >come to our university and write a thesis about Gossip Girls or Sailor Moon or whatever dumb show you like! >that'll be $140,000>by the way, you're the smartest, bravest, most important person in the whole world for fighting the patriarchy >*inserts fat stack of money into a counting machine*
>>25406094>My post is not bait. Emily Wilson’s translation is literally just what I described it asyou're a liar who presumably hasn't even read Wilson's own introduction to the book>The Odyssey shows an acute awareness of the processes of colonization, and Odysseus himself seems sometimes to think as much like a colonizer as a pirate. When scoping out the uninhabited island adjacent to that of the Cyclopes, he gives a description that sounds like an advertisement for prospective colonial inhabitants, as well as a critique, from the colonizer’s point of view, of the natives who have failed to exploit their country’s natural resources [...] It is not surprising that the island was identified in antiquity with Sicily, given both the lush natural resources of this location in the poem, and the ways that the Polyphemus episode seems to meditate uneasily on the processes of colonization [...] As narrator, he makes his actions seem acceptable or even admirable, by emphasizing morally irrelevant considerations—such as the fact that the Cyclops lives by herding animals rather than growing crops (as presumably was also true of the native Sicilians), and by presenting his victim as loud, ugly, and oversized. Of course, Polyphemus also has the nasty habit of eating his human visitors. By this means, the text invites us to imagine that all non-Greek and pastoralist societies should be seen as barbaric and cannibalistic.ah yes, the morally irrelevant consideration that Polyphemus is a 60-foot-tall demigod monster who eats the uncooked flesh of the men he murdersinsisting that we take this episode as manifestly 'colonial', and that Polyphemus is a 'victim' after his gruesome murder-cannibalism, is ridiculous, and the language she uses both here and in the translation itself betrays her unwillingness to engage with the text on its own terms rather than substituting hersnow fuck off
>>25406073>pretend that her translation is “feminist” or “political.”She herself has described the exact ways in which it is political. Her project overwrites the previous translators' perceived racist and sexist bias by replacing expressions such as "savage" or "bitch".
>>25406156I do not see what's wrong here. Also this has nothing to do with feminism >engage with the text on its own termsDoes "engage with the text on its terms" mean "blindly accept the values and judgements it presents and contains implicitly" to you? because that is a rather fatuous and boring way to read literature.
In college I studied archaeology and was working a dig in eastern europe at a roman site. The locals kept telling me about this 1000 year old stone church nearby so one day I went, and I found that the church was made entirely out of stones taken from the site that I was excavating. There were even the heads and torsos of marble statues cut into blocks for the walls.At first I was mad, but then I thought: what right did those statues have to dignity? Just because they were old? Because they were from what I perceived to be a superior culture?Existence for all things is temporary. It's better to be repurposed for something tangible and modern than it is to remain a stain left over from a dead and unknowable culture.
>>25406166>Also this has nothing to do with feminisminstant backpedal from>Please just say that you hate Emily Wilson because she is a woman rather than pretend that her translation is “feminist” or “political.”it obviously and pointedly is political, which I have definitively shown with the text from her introductionwillful dishonesty of this sort makes you a cultist who cannot be reasoned with
>>25406165she doesn't say that in these quotes. she say's it's anachronistic for the period the Odyssey is set in
>>25405902>conflating women with feministsStandard feminist psyop.
>>25406073>translation that happens to be by a womanYou plainly haven't read Wilson's own interviews regarding the book, and classicism in general.
>>25406174>which I have definitively shown with the text from her introductionYou really haven't. She's giving an analysis of the treatment of the island of the Cyclopses in the Odyssey. You simply got triggered by the mere mention of "colonialism" which is not "political" but something that actually exists in the real world, in real history.
>>25406152Academia has always been a welfare scheme for the socially useless.
>>25406168Perhaps archaeology wasn't your true calling. Just saying ...
>>25406195>colonialism isn't political>politics apparently also doesn't 'exist in the real world' according to youyou can stop lying at any time, you know
>>25406195Disingenuous comment. Colonialism, especially the "colonialism bad" meme, is an obsessive preoccupation of today's woke left.
>>25406210the reason I put "political" in quotes in my post was because I was referring to how complaining right wingers use it as anything that they perceive as having some sinister ideological agenda that seeks to erase tradition or established culture. Obviously, everything is fucking political. Robert Fagles translation, and Fitzgerald's translations are both "political" as well and you've seen examples in this thread of how Emily Wilson actually undid some of their "political" choices.
>>25405895I'll maintain that Fagles is the best verse translation just for readability and understanding. All the other ones either cut too much out or are way too lengthy
>>25406183>"I read Homer’s great poem as a complex and truthful articulation of gender dynamics that continue to haunt us. Part of my job is to make visible the cracks in this patriarchal fantasy." - Emily Wilson
>>25406204reviving the past through archaeology is no different if you can't mold it to give meaning to the modern world. Things aren't entitled a dignified life or death. Anthropomorphism is dangerous.
>>25405895it's painfully obvious that she injected her own feminist viewpoints into the translation but I'll give her credit for having it in iambic pentameter
>>25406216so you've gone from>stop pretending the novel is "political"to>uh ackshually actually everything is "political"straight out of the delusional cultist playbooklet me hold up a mirror to you:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firehose_of_falsehood
>>25406213Marx thought colonialism was progressive and actually good.It takes being a petty-bourgeois nationalist or some kind of naive pacifist to have strong beliefs against colonialism. The states and societies which existed before the Spanish or the British were in many cases much more brutal and just as exploitative, with some exceptions such as with the Iroqouis. The colonialists replaced antiquated societies, drawing them into the forming global trade, which is a prerequisite (like very socialized production in general) for a developed capitalist mode of production and communism, too.The people who came after Marx were never as gifted, intelligent or as educated as he was, so the whole Communist movement degenerated with the help of figures such as Lenin. Leftism in any case has nothing to do with communism.
>>25406152It is to keep women from reproducing. The fleecing is a bonus.
>>25406216>When evaluating her translation, it may not be important that Wilson is a woman, but it is important that she attacks the poem from a critical, politically-engaged lens. Wilson’s translation is radical, not only because it humanizes disenfranchised characters, but also because it invites the reader to critically engage with the poem’s complicated legacy as both a classic hero’s journey and a horrific patriarchal fantasy. This is an excerpt from a left-leaning article praising Wilson. Do you agree, yes or no, that her translation "attacks the poem from a critical, politically-engaged lens" and invites the viewer to critically engage with a "horrific patriarchal fantasy"?
>>25406239I explained to you what I meant by '"political"' (in quotes) from the beginning and how that is consistent with everything I have said. I have not backtracked or changed on anything.
>>25406225...and? I genuinely don't see the problem.
>>25406252people will analyze anything through a feminist lens because it's easy and they don't have anything else interesting to say. >yes or nono, it does not "attack" the poem. that's retarded. it may however "invite" the viewer to engage with a horrific patriarchal fantasy since the poem itself already has the capability to "invite" the reader to do that independently of any translation since the poem itself is what contains the cultural values of the time and reflects the structure of that society.
>>25406216name one thing in the Fagles translation you consider "political" instead of making broad vague statements retard
>>25406256Okay, so it's feminist and it's a good thing. But why did you feel the need to gaslight and lie about this? Why not immediately just say that you support it? Why deny it's feminist in the first place and waste everyone's time?
>>25406267you can't genuinely have a conversation with these people because they'll pretend not to understand or misconstrue what you said
>>25406195She's inserting a political theme that doesn't exist in the text. The Odyssey is not about colonialism. Nor was the Greek colonialism of the Archaic Period comparable to the European colonial period that would come later. Avoiding the word "savage" when describing a monstrous Cyclops because of shit that would happen *after* the Odyssey was written is absurd.
>>25406271>She's inserting a political theme that doesn't exist in the text. The Odyssey is not about colonialism.lmao, how retarded do you have to be? It doesn't matter if the Odyssey is "about" colonialism. she literally explained in that quote how colonial ideology appears implicitly in the poem.
>>25406267I don't even see what was feminist about this quote. I believe she is saying that by not using Early Modern words and phrases, she will be more true to the original when it was written, in its own time. Thus the (modern) patriarchal fantasy, supported by early modern words, doesn't make sense in the poem, but what is (the content itself) written in Homer's epic is unchanged to show what those gender dynamics were then. That's how I understand it, anyways. She wants to use words which are more appropriate for that time period to show the difference between our modern patriarchal fantasy and Homer's time.
>>25406254>that is consistent with everything I have said>'it's not political, but also it is'>'I'm not inconsistent; you're inconsistent!'you need to repeat the first grade
>>25406272Then let the text speak for itself and let the reader decide if there's strong colonialist themes or if you've just given yourself schizophrenia. You certainly don't need to censor the work in the absolute certainty that this is true.
>>25406280>Then let the text speakwhen has it been shown that she didn't? give an example of how she censored the work or force fed that message in the translation itself. an analysis in the introduction isn't the same as the translation. >>25406278I explained exactly how it is consistent, but go on just repeating yourself while refusing to comprehend.
>>25406266the article this guy linked >>25406136 gave an example. the translation of "sluts" and "whores" here is not neutral.
>>25406288you have stated it's not political, and also it isthere are no magic words you can use to weasel your way out; you'll instead just keep up the firehose because you don't actually care about truth or consistency>muh ruthless criticism of all that exists>muh issue is never the issue, the issue is the revolutionyou can't win, and never will
>>25406297see >>25406216
>>25406276>I don't even see what was feminist about the quote: "Part of my job is to make visible the cracks in this patriarchal fantasy."Anon I don't know what to tell you. She makes it clear that previous translators had a sexist bias and that she aims to fix this. You can say right-wingers overreacted without pretending it's not feminist. To use a banal Godwin's Law analogy, this is like if a translator writes about "expunging Jewish subversion from previous translations" only to have people defend him by saying he's *not* a Nazi or antisemite because [insert bad faith argument].
>>25405895feminism done properly gives us some insight into the kind of shit being put in translations of the past.
>>25406306Give me one good reason why "Hwæt!" should be translated as "Bro!"
>>25406299none of that works as a defense of the statement>The right wing is extremely insufferable lately how they are still pretending things are “political” or “woke” just because a woman or non white person existed in proximity to it. Please just say that you hate Emily Wilson because she is a woman rather than pretend that her translation is “feminist” or “political.”which is clearly indefensible in light of overwhelming evidence in this thread and elsewhere, but you can't admit it, because you're a pathologically dishonest cultistyou could retract and apologize, but you won't, because you're committed to lying
>>25406315you're straight up brain dead. I was explicitly talking about they way right wingers use those words when they want to complain about some piece of media. That is why I put them in quotes. Right wingers who complain about something being "political" carry the implicit assumption that the art they would prefer to consume is NOT political, which I obviously do not share and would never have endorsed.
>>25406058Every translation is biased to some extent. You can't exactly translate everything 1 to 1, there's always necessarily some level of interpretation by the translator. If you don't like a specific translator just don't buy their translation, are you retarded?
>>25406300Maybe so. But still, is that not a good thing? She wanted to make a more accurate translation, trying not to include modern day sexist bias. Not by changing the content, but translating in a way that would reflect the society Homer was talking about better and less our modern one.By the way, I don't think you can make a neutral translation, a timeless translation that won't represent the values, conditions etc. of the society it was made in, but this isn't really relevant here.
>>25406325>every translation has potential for bias, therefore my blatantly and extremely biased version is no worse than any other.Perfectly clear reasoning, yes
>>25406325Most translations are not openly and intentionally ideological.
>>25405895That Beowulf version genuinely holds up. There's a few misses that make you cringe, but overall it's very entertaining and does exactly what it sets out to do.It has nothing to do with feminism, I have no fucking clue where that even comes from. Is it because she's a women? Is that how that shit works? That's a really narrow view of things
>>25406321so you've resorted to pretending you don't understand the aspersions that you yourself madehere's an exercise for you; let's take your quote:>Please just say that you hate Emily Wilson because she is a woman rather than pretend that her translation is “feminist” or “political."now explain to the class: is her translation "feminist"? is it "political"? if so, how would one fairly characterize its political positions?explain your answer.
>>25406338>is her translation "feminist"? the translation is not "feminist" in that it does not distort the poem in the name of "feminism." the translation may, however, be informed by feminist thought. no one in this thread has demonstrated a single instance of the original poem being actively distorted in the name of feminism. in fact, we've seen more evidence in this thread that other translations have distorted the meaning because of sexism. >is it "political"?same answer.
Thoughts on this?>Emily Wilson completely changed the meaning of a key word in the Odyssey to make it seem like Helen of Troy didn't blame herself for starting the Trojan War, when in fact the text makes it clear that she did.>In 4.145-146, Helen calls herself κυνώπιδος (dog-faced). This is an insult meaning "shameless." It is commonly used to refer to unfaithful lovers. For example, it is used elsewhere in the Odyssey (8.319) to refer to Aphrodite after she cheats on Hephaestus with Ares.>Fagles translates 4.145-146 to: "all you Achaeans fought at Troy, launching your headlong battles just for my sake, shameless whore that I was.”>Lattimore translates 4.145-146 to: "for the sake of shameless me, the Achaians went beneath Troy, their hearts intent upon reckless warfare.">Wilson completely changes the meaning of κυνώπιδος to "hounded" (she is trying to be cute by translating 'dog-faced' to a word that still relates to dogs, even though its actual meaning is completely unrelated). She then applies this word to the Achaeans, saying that they were hounded, not Helen. >This is obviously an ideological change that she made because she personally believes Helen shouldn't be blamed for the Trojan War. She deliberated distorted the meaning of one of the foundational texts of Western literature to conform with her modern beliefs.
>>25406349I don't care.
>>25406344>no one in this thread has demonstrated a single instance of the original poem being actively distorted in the name of [politics]now you're pretending to be illiterate, too?oh by the way, defend Wilson having the suitors call Odysseus a 'migrant' as an insult in the bow-stringing sceneplease do consult the original Greek
>>25406344>sexism is when you call a woman a bitchIs it also sexism when you call a man a bastard? Come on
>>25406336Absolutely wrong. What you're actually saying is that you haven't noticed or cared about the ideologies in other translations.Translating involves taking the text and culture from one work and making it understandable in the same way to a different culture. How could that ever be apolitical?Take the word "lolicon" in Japanese. It's a single word, yet it is impossible to translate that into english without political bias.And that's a recent word in a modern language from a contemporary culture. Now do that to a language and culture thousands of years old. And you think there isn't a bias? Forget it!
>>25406353Okay
>>25405895The left is all about demoralization and destroying anything heroic about the past via taking over positive historical narratives and corrupting them. They're also really into adding insult to injury and will imagine people who reject being brainwashed into such a worldview are simply uneducated.
>>25406349shameful translation
>>25406328I don't know if it's accurate or not, I don't know Ancient Greek. Nowhere have I commented on the quality of the actual translation. I'm just annoyed by these mind games and pretending X isn't X when it clearly is.
>>25406300>previous translators had a sexist biasShe has a sexist bias which causes her to project such onto prior translations.
>>25406356I know you've schizo'd yourself into thinking that everything is ideological, but even this perspective doesn't claim that this ideology is all open and intentional. The claim here is that this is subliminal ideology, the "background radiation" ideology of assumptions and norms. That is fundamentally different from something being openly and intentionally ideological. You might claim that this or that translation is conservative, but that would only be because the translator had some kind of conservative assumptions about the world that leaked into the translation. That is fundamentally different from, for instance, intentionally trying to translate a text in a way that is feminist and post-colonial.
>>25406355the quote from the article explained why it isn't just "calling a woman a bitch.">>25406349the line in Emily Wilson's translation still explicitly blames Helen, lol>They made my face the cause that hounded them.This is Helen blaming herself. She also didnt' translate the whole word as "hounded" but also translated the "face" part. this seems more like an attempt to render the word more literal-ish by preserving the dog and face elements. it may be a questionable translation but I don't think it is for ideological reasons. >>25406354>defend Wilson having the suitors call Odysseus a 'migrant' as an insult in the bow-stringing scenewho cares?
>>25406371>everything is ideologicalIt is.
>>25406165>enslaved peoplethen>field slaveswhen did people start using "enslaved people" instead of "slaves?" Same thing w/ "slave owners" into "enslavers."
>>25406374>dodging the point
>>25406373>who cares?ahh, the last resort of the fucking loser when there's no way to salvage their positionsweeter than Euanthes’ wine
>>25406373>This is Helen blaming herselfHow? The sentence is framed in a way that makes THEM the culprit ("THEY made my face the cause"). How exactly does she blame herself here?
>>25406374If you're touching culture, art, or language, then yes, it is. It *has* to be. Otherwise those words have no meaning at all.
>>25406375It's a woke way to refer to slaves. "Slaves" sounds essentialist and fixed while "enslaved people" centers their humanity and makes the enslaving sound like something that is inflicted on them rather a core part of their being
>>25406365Okay, I don't know Ancient Greek either. I suppose we can agree that it's a feminist translation, then.From what she said in her introduction, it didn't seem to me that she wanted to change the content so as to not be sexist, but to rather use those English words which can represent the attitudes of the ancient Greeks better, instead of the attitudes of English speaking people.>>25406349https://www.wordnik.com/words/houndHound can also mean:>A contemptible person; a scoundrel.Hounded in this case is probably in the passive voice, that Helen is hounded, but this doesn't indicate the person who hounded her and it doesn't have to.I can't find the actual quote though. Please send it.
>>25406335>>25406336Just because she's not a brain dead chud and can form a modern interpretation in the introduction doesn't mean the translation itself is more biased than any other. Many translators do this you're just crying because you don't like her personal interpretation and you don't understand what translating a text actually entails
>>25406382I'm asking how using the word "migrant" means it is ideological? Lattimore uses the word "vagabond" there. It means roughly the same thing.>>25406385I don't think you would read it like that if you weren't primed to. That doesn't blame her any less than Lattimore who says their hearts were bent on reckless warfare for her sake.
>>25406399>I don't think you would read it like that if you weren't primed to.which is to say, reading it in the context of who is to "blame" and trying to shift the "blame" onto someone rather than Helen stating and lamenting what happened. "they made my face the cause" is just how that is expressed.
>>25406399>I don't think you would read it like that if you weren't primed to.Well if I read only the Wilson version obviously I wouldn't know anything to compare it to, what's your point?>what about LattimoreWhataboutism
>>25406405>Whataboutismthis has to be rage bait
>>25406406>rage baitBuzzword
I've noticed that anons only pull out the argument fallacies when they are in the middle of being BTFO.
nta>>25406166>I do not see what's wrong here.nigga c'mon>As narrator, he makes his actions seem acceptable or even admirable, by emphasizing morally irrelevant considerations—such as the fact that the Cyclops lives by herding animals rather than growing crops (as presumably was also true of the native Sicilians), and by presenting his victim as loud, ugly, and oversized.>Of course, Polyphemus also has the nasty habit of EATING HIS HUMAN VISITORS>By this means, the text invites us to imagine that all non-Greek and pastoralist societies should be seen as barbaric and cannibalistic.We are talking about a fucking one-eyed, man-eating monster and she's making it about colonialism. Holy fucking shit stop being so disingenuous you goober.
>>25406410Well you're a retard so
>>25406399>It means roughly the same thingit does not, and especially not in the context of modern politicshttps://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%BB%CE%AE%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82
>>25406412the man eating part wasn't listed as one of the morally irrelevant points.the man-eating point was explicitly brought up to support her point that the text was trying to portray pastoralist societies are barbaric. >We are talking about a fucking one-eyedyou realize that Polyphemus didn't actually exist, right? Polyphemus was intentionally constructed and described that way by the text. She's simply analyzing what motivations might lie behind the construction of the myth.
>>25406415>https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CE%BB%CE%AE%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82is this supposed to support your point? "migrant" is a word that does mean a person who "wanders" or "roams" and also fits the rhythm. what evidence do you have that she chose "migrant" because for political reasons rather than because it's a trochee that fits the meter better than "vagabond" or "wanderer"? >See how this pitiful migrant fingers itSEE how this PITiful MIGrant FINGers IT (Trochaic substitution in the first foot plus reduction of the final syllables in Pitiful)
>>25406290>the translation of "sluts" and "whores" here is not neutral.what words should he have used for female maids and servants sucking and fucking the suitors that were shitting all over Odysseus' family and faithful servants?
>>25406398>Just because she's not a brain dead chud and can form a modern interpretation in the introduction doesn't mean the translation itself is more biased than any other.Yeah, but it would be some trick to accidentally produce a translation that is more biased that one that was intentionally so.Or is your contention here that everything is basically the same level of biased and ideological? Because that's not true.
>>25406313That's quite funny actually
>>25406418Are you suggesting that the Greeks thought that the Sicilians were 60-foot-tall cyclopes?
Even the previously linked article which worships at Wilson's feet for her consciously political and feminist approach basically admits "hounded" is an ideologically driven mistranslation:https://eidolon.pub/women-who-weave-c3a8dd322447>The idea that women or goddesses, especially desirable ones who sleep with men outside marriage, are like dogs, or have doglike faces, recurs at several moments in the poem: Hephaestus uses the same term of his unfaithful, divinely beautiful wife, Aphrodite; the dead Agamemnon calls his murderous wife a ‘she-dog’; and the pretty slave girl Melantho is called a ‘dog’ by both Penelope and Odysseus,” she points out.>Granted — as Wilson herself acknowledges — κυνώπις is not exclusively reserved for women; in that sense, it is not the exact equivalent of “bitch,” which she says “would be a misleading translation.” But the association nevertheless persists: “Women, more than men, are like dogs, because they are put low on the social hierarchy, and because they might be scarily capable of seeing through social conventions, and might refuse to stay in their place,” Wilson argues. “But the idea that it is not the woman or goddess herself, but her face, that is like a dog suggests that it might be male perceptions of women, rather than female desires themselves, that threaten the social fabric.” (For those interested, Cristiana Franco has a book on this subject.)>So the problem is not that Homer is misogynist in using κυνώπις for Helen any more than the solution is for Wilson to neutralize the word (“hounded” does lose the often pejorative force). The problem is that many of the pre-Wilson translations betray a tendency to cave to (modern) misogynist impulses.So in other words the original text is misogynist in its own right, and she altered it nevertheless.
>>25406432Obviously that's not true but you can't give a single example of an actual "biased" transtlation, the only "example" of bias anyone has given is the introduction. And no shit she has her won interpretation and worldview. Just give one example of bias/misinterpretation in the translation itself and I'll agree with you.
>>25406429More importantly why was Emily Wilson so triggered by two words in an old book? Why is she engaged in culture wars instead of focusing on Epstein?
>>25406437“Are you suggesting Jonathon Swift thought foreign peoples were 2 inches tall?”Sigh.
>>25406427let's refer to 'migrant boats' as 'vagrant boats' from now on; surely this would not be a political framing device that changes the meaning
>>25406427>what evidence do you have that she chose "migrant" because for political reasonsWhat evidence does she have that past translators used the word whore because they hated women?
>>25406440>you can't give a single example of an actual "biased" transtlationPeople have already given multiple. And that's to say nothing of the Beowulf translation linked in the OP.
>>25406446“Migrant boats” would be like saying “vagabond boats.” It sounds weird because migrant isn’t usually used as an adjective. “Migrating boats” or “migratory boats” sounds fine. Jesus fucking christ.
>>25406444Gulliver's Travels wasn't about colonialism either, except maybe in the very specific case of British colonialism against the Irish.
>>25406447Deflection.
>>25406388>"enslaved people" centers their humanity and makes the enslaving sound like something that is inflicted on them rather a core part of their beingthanks.am I a retard if I understand this but it seems weird? to use "enslaver" though, it just sounds like some mook unit in a video game. (Not defending slave owners it just seems like a stark 180 from centralizing the humanity of enslaved people to taking away the humanity (or lack thereof) of people who owned slaves. It's not aliens doing the enslaving, it's not aliens being enslaved. It's humans on both sides of the equation, who, or what, else could it be?)
>>25406451Not the point.I’m done.
Because men gave up on literature because they thought it was boring and/or gay and now only read self help trash or autistic non-fiction in the pursuit of strategies to win socially having embraced a completely soulless and vacuous life
>>25406455Okay so when Wilson and her leftist supporters assume shit with no evidence that's okay?
>>25406457I understand where they're coming from but it's still fucking stupid. As a wageslave, I don't want to be called "wage-enslaved person". Wageslave sounds dehumanizing precisely because what it describes is dehumanizing.
>>25406450look at all these vagrants
>>25406468Yes, migrant is used to refer to… migrants. Which Odysseus also was. Also i wasn’t wrong in my last post since here migrant is being used as an adjunct noun rather than adjective, in that case “vagabond boats” could be used to say “boats carrying vagabonds.” But “vagrant boats” isn’t the same construction as “migrant boats” grammatically as you implied in your last post. But whatever.
>>25406459I get your point. That the cyclops was supposed to be native Sicilians. But this isn't something that is actually proven anywhere. She's just fucking saying shit. No, I don't think that talking about the natural wealth of an island means that its actually colonial advertisement and the cyclops's island is actually Sicily and the cyclops represents the native Sicilians. To be honest with you, I think that's a massive twirling gymnastic leap. At most, you could say that this indicates that the ancient Greeks saw settled, agricultural peoples as civilized and pastoral peoples as uncivilized barbarians. I do not think it has anything the fuck to do with Sicily or Greek colonialism. If they wanted to say that the Sicilians were all a bunch of backwards savages that deserved to be conquered, they would have just said that the Sicilians were backwards savages that deserved to be conquered. Ancient peoples didn't have any fucking problem with that kind of language. If anything, her whole problem is a bit of presentism. She assumes that the Greeks operated on subliminal messaging propaganda because that's what we do today. Except that's not how they operated. If they thought some other group of people were savages who deserved to be conquered, they just fucking said it, they didn't construct weird metaphors with 60-foot-tall demigod cyclops sons of Poseidon.
>>25406418>wasn't listed as one of the morally irrelevant points.I am well aware friend. It is brought up AFTER everything else in a "Oh by the way he ALSO eats people," like come on lady that's a pretty big detail.>the text was trying to portray pastoralist societies are barbaric. I'm not saying it isn't but there was plenty of pastoralism in Greek society at the time was there not? Seems a bit of a stretch.>She's simply analyzing what motivations might lie behind the construction of the myth.right. It just seems far-fetched to me that someone can read a story about a pastoralist monster/son of Poseidon and think "yeah this is definitely trying to portray the native non-agricultural pastoral peoples as barbaroi." I'm thinking maybe the lack of agriculture by the Cyclops is that they're bighuge and would have a hard time.Polyphemus in Book 13 of Metamorphoses has a pipe, sings songs, herds sheep, has orchards and is big horny for a nymph. Even if it's ~1100 years after the Odyssey, I wonder what she'd think of Ovid's portrayal of Polyphemus vis-a-vis colonialism.
>>25406476you're clearly deliberately missing the pointdo you suppose this sign would mean the same thing if it said 'vagrants welcome'? do you suppose that's what this person is in favor of?Wilson is using 'migrant' as a form of argumentum ad Hitlerum: the suitors are evil people who consider 'migrants' to be vile; you, dear reader, wouldn't want to be evil like them and be against 'migrants', would you?
>>25405895foids are stupid nerds who were (justifiably) burnt at the stake for hundreds of years. we should restart doing that btw
>>25406439>“Women... are put low on the social hierarchy, and because they might be scarily capable of seeing through social conventions, and might refuse to stay in their place,” Wilson argues.> it might be male perceptions of women, rather than female desires themselves, that threaten the social fabric.”
>>25406487>you can’t use the word migrant in your poetry anymore because the fact that I see it used in the news to refer to brown people means it is ideological!I’m not missing the point the point is just retarded. I’ve already given a perfectly reasonable, much simpler explanation why she would use the word migrant. You sound like a schizo drawing connections that you desperately need to be true.
>>25406094Fair, but don't you think its just a teeny bit justified for them to fire back?
>>25406481nice post, you make my response about that look like poop.
>>25406496there's no reason to use 'migrant' in place of 'vagrant', either in the original text or in her translation, other than politics
>>25406504Vagrant is a rarer word that also has connotations of being a homeless bum.
>>25406187Most women regardless if they explicitly deny or affirm it if you asked them their views would probably unanimously align >>25406251Hence why I justify pol pot style dismantling of academia and promote total male sexual autonomy in my writings. Men should ultimately decide whether they want to be fathers or not independent of a woman's position on the matter. Further more, academia promotes anti-life philosophies which harm the rural poor.
>>25406508which is exactly why the suitors would use the word that is an intentional insult, rather than a word that is not inherently so but has modern political valence
>>25406512they should've called him a GAYgrant instead for extra damage haha.
>>25406496>the word savage cannot be used to refer to a cave-dwelling cannibal monster because some Euro colonizers used it to describe brownerinos in the 19th century!!!You're simply a leftist and will defend Wilson to death, that's it. There's not even a debate to be had here, you just hate chuds because of personal reasons and are thus willing to perform all types of mental gymnastics imaginable to spite them.
>>25406512“Migrant” emphasizes Odyssey’s actual condition up to that point of wandering in foreign lands and being lost at sea. “Vagrancy” has modern legal connotations and basically refers to (domestic) homeless people. Sure, you could say “vagrant” is more insulting, but why choose to emphasize that over the wandering element? This is just splitting hairs at this point. Would you prefer that she had thought of the word “migrant” but then opted for “vagrant” specifically because she wanted to avoid people like you getting offended?
>>25406525Dude, I’m not even particularly against using words like savage, slut, whore or fucking whatever in your translation. I only pointed that out because people were acting as if Wilson’s translation was distorting everything when you can just as well argue that she’s right that these terms aren’t as accurate and are colored by sexism or colonialism. We’ve had two fucking instances of Wilson using possibly questionable translation choices and they’re no worse than “savage” and “slut.” I don’t give a single fucking shit about either. I’m simply tired of this culture war hysteria. If you want to talk about double standards then you psychotic people have just as much reason to attack other translations as wilson is my only point. I am not attacking any translation.
>>25406495Social science really isn't science>like, I have a feeling that society is like this and not like that, teehee
>>25406537>I’m simply tired of this culture war hysteriaThen why are you so passionately engaging in it?
>>25406542I am not engaging in the culture war. I’m engaging in arguing that the culture war is retarded and that you are all schizophrenic niggerfaggots for whining constantly about a fucking translation.
The quality of the hardcover of Wilson's translation is pretty nice, I'm going to buy it.
>>25406545The translation in question is direct participation in the culture war you claim to hate. The difference between Wilson's translation and all others didn't arise out of nothing.
>>25406375idk a lot of californian leftists have a bizarre view on language. its the same as how so many of them will say "folk/folks" instead of people, for some reason, even though people is already gender-neutral. i really dont get it.
You are all gentile who neither know ancient greek or could translate it if you did. This is classicists/academics to quarrel about not laymen who will pay to watch a fucking movie adaption
>>25406560actually now that i think about it, i wonder if it is a performative attempt to appear more folksy and down to earth rather than academic and bohemian, which these types have long had a reputation of being. i think its why they also like to say "y'all" even though they are not southern at all and want to signal some kind of fake salt of the earth type personality
>>25406529the suitors don't want to be accurate to his history (though of course they know only a false tale); they want to degrade him. what the fuck am I reading?>“Vagrancy” has modern legal connotations and basically refers to (domestic) homeless people.go read book 17 (for the first time, I'm sure), but here's Wilson's rendering:>Antinous began to scold the swineherd.>“Pig-man! You famous idiot! Why did you>bring this man here? Do we not have already>plenty of homeless people coming here>to spoil our feasts? Is it not bad enough>that they crowd round and eat your master’s wealth?>You had to ask this other one as well?”furthermorevagrant(specifically) A person without settled employment or habitation who usually supports himself or herself by begging or some dishonest means; a tramp, a vagabond. Odysseus is going around as exactly this'migrant' is not defensible here
>>25406529You could split the difference and call him a drifter.
>>25406573wanderer could work too
>>25405895Things for which there is an audience get made and bought. You should ask why the 4chan annotated Moby Dick had no audience and why chuddie book ideas never get made. The books that /do/ get made and labeled right wing are shit like Gad Saad’s jewish defense force whining books, Jordan Peterstein’s penis washing books, VDH cumming over Trump and wanting more mideast war books, all the ziocuck right favourites.
>>25405895About the Beowulf translation, here's a few traditional translations of Beowulf:Roy Liuzza>Listen! We have heard of the glory in bygone days of the folk-kings of the spear-Danes, how those noble lords did lofty deeds. >Often Scyld Scefing seized the mead-benches from many tribes, troops of enemies, struck fear into earls. Though he first was found a waif, he awaited solace for that - he grew under heaven and prospered in honor until every one of the encircling nations over the whale's-riding had to obey him, grant him tribute. That was a good king!>A boy was later born to him, young in the courts, whom God sent as a solace to the people - he saw their need, the dire distress they had endured, lordless, for such a long time. The Lord of Life, Wielder of Glory, gave him worldly honor; Beowulf, the son of Scyld, was renowned, his fame spread wide in Scandinavian lands. Thus should a young man bring about good with pious gifts from his father's possessions, so that later in life loyal comrades will stand beside him when war comes, the people will support him - with praiseworthy deeds a man will prosper among any people. J.R.R. Tolkien>Lo! the glory of the kings of the people of the Spear-Danes in days of old we have heard tell, how those princes did deeds of valour. Oft Scyld Scefing robbed the hosts of foemen, many peoples, of the seats where they drank their mead, laid fear upon men, he who first was found forlorn; comfort for that he lived to know, mighty grew under heaven, throve in honour, until all that dwelt nigh about, over the sea where the whale rides, must hearken to him and yield him tribute – a good king was he!>To him was an heir afterwards born, a young child in his courts whom God sent for the comfort of the people: perceiving the dire need which they long while endured aforetime being without a prince. To him therefore the Lord of Life who rules in glory granted honour among men: Beow was renowned – far and wide his glory sprang – the heir of Scyld in Scedeland. Thus doth a young man bring it to pass with good deed and gallant gifts, while he dwells in his father’s bosom, that after in his age there cleave to him loyal knights of his table, and the people stand by him when war comes. By worthy deeds in every folk is a man ennobled.(cont.)
>>25406804Finally, Seamus Heaney for the traditional translations, maybe taking the most artistic liberties in an attempt to put the poem back into meter:>So. The Spear-Danes in days done by>And the kings who ruled them had courage and greatness.>We have heard of those prince’s heroic campaigns.>There was Shield Sheafson, scourge of many tribes,>A wrecker of mead-benches, rampaging among foes.>This terror of the hall-troops had come far.>A foundling to start with, he would flourish later on>As his powers waxed and his worth was proved.>In the end each clan on the outlying coasts>Beyond the whale-road had to yield to him>And begin to pay tribute. That was one good king.>Afterwards a boy-child was born to Shield,>A cub in the yard, a comfort sent>By God to that nation. He knew what they had tholed*,>The long times and troubles they’d come through>Without a leader; so the Lord of Life,>The glorious Almighty, made this man renowned.>Shield had fathered a famous son:>Beow’s name was known through the north>and a young prince must be prudent like that, >Giving freely while his father lives>so that afterwards in age when fighting starts>steadfast companions will stand by him>and hold the line. Behaviour that’s admired>is the path to power among people everywhere.
>>25406811And finally finally, Maria Dahvana Headley's translation:>Bro! Tell me we still know how to speak of kings! In the old days,>everyone knew what men were: brave, bold, glory-bound. Only>stories now, but I’ll sound the Spear-Danes’ song, hoarded for hungry times.>Their first father was a foundling: Scyld Scefing.>He spent his youth fists up, browbeating every barstool-brother,>bonfiring his enemies. That man began in the waves, a baby in a basket,>but he bootstrapped his way into a kingdom, trading loneliness>for luxury. Whether they thought kneeling necessary or no,>everyone from head to tail of the whale-road bent down:>There’s a king, there’s his crown!>That was a good king.>Later, God sent Scyld a son, a wolf cub,>further proof of manhood. Being God, He knew>how the Spear-Danes had suffered, the misery>they’d mangled through, leaderless, long years of loss,>so the Life-lord, that Almighty Big Boss, birthed them>an Earth-shaker. Beow’s name kissed legions of lips>by the time he was half-grown, but his own father>was still breathing. We all know a boy can’t daddy>until his daddy’s dead. A smart son gives>gifts to his father’s friends in peacetime.>When war woos him, as war will,>he’ll need those troops to follow the leader.>Privilege is the way men prime power,>the world over.
>>25406627>the 4chan annotated Moby DickThe what?
Anyone up for defending this?>>25406804>>25406811>>25406815
>>25405895>Why is this a thing that we apparently tolerate as a society?1. women can vote2. women are the majority of the population 3. women mentally stall out at 15solution: picrel
>>25406166you are a bug. crawl under a rock and die, you soulless cattle.
>>25406804>>25406811>>25406815Where's the Tyrone DeShawn version?
>>25405895Her word choice is simple and direct (and I guess controversial, but idgaf about that), but the simplicity combined with the iambic pentameter lets Wilson's translation move with a rhythm that really hooked me. Having actually read the fucking thing (not just excerpts of a few lines comparing it to other translations), it's not my favorite translation, it's not the translation I would quote for its beautiful language, but I really enjoyed the whole experience, and I genuinely don't get what all the fuss is about.
>>25406811>>25406815I unironically enjoy both of these.
>>25406195I've heard Wilson defenders push back against criticisms about her politicizing the poem with the tired "uh, actually, all art is political, chud" line, but this is the first time I've ever seen someone claim "colonialism isn't political"I'm actually impressed by this ragebait. well done, fag.
>>25406165>The Odyssey is a poem that may seem to notmalize or valorize the treatment of non-Western people as monstersTHE ANCIENT GREEKS WERE NOT WESTERN FOR FUCKS SAKE. THEY WERE MORE EASTERN THAN WESTERN.AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
>>25407124I think people on both sides tend to forget this.
>>25406815>Bro!>that Almighty Big Boss>We all know a boy can’t daddy>until his daddy’s dead.
>>25405895It's not a feminist thing, it's an anglo thing, anglos elite class have a disease of censoring information, you can see this aspect in british culture where they constantly try to confrol the flux of info, America suffers from this too because of it's anglo side, catcher in the rye and Tom Sawyer's newer editions are heavily censored too, this feminist faggotry is just another form of censorship but with dykes put at the helm
>>25406392Describing Helen as "hounded" implies that she was unjustly harassed and persecuted.
>>25407282I have no idea what that chick was on.
>>25406932>Ay yo! Y'all heard bout dem old kings of the spear-Danes, how dey wasn' fuckin around?>Dat nigga Scyld Scefing was fuckin niggas up and stealin they mead benches. Blud started out a homeless kid, but he put in that grind until he was da boss of every nigga around da place where dem whales be swimmin, and he made dem give him dey money. Dat nigga was a good kang!>After dat, da good lawd gabe him a son to comfort the niggas he wuz rulin. It had been foreva since dey had a kang! Da good lawd made him da GOAT and everyone showed Beowulf respect. Den he gave gifts from his daddy out to all his boys to make sure dem niggas stayed loyal when war came. If a nigga good to his boys, he'll make it anywhere!
It always amazes me how rightists will go out of their way to scour the internet for something to be gravely offended by.Literally only a handful of people in the world care about "feminist translations."
>>25407921>Literally only a handful of people in the world care about "feminist translations."The Emily Wilson translation of the Odyssey got a glowing review in the New York Times (the paper of record of the United States and, thus, the entire English-speaking world by extension) and went on to be cited as one of the primary inspirations for a major inspiration for a summer blockbuster adaptation of the Odyssey.Maria Dahvana Headley's translation of Beowulf received the 2021 Harold Morton Landon Translation Award from the Academy of American Poets and the 2021 Hugo Award for Best Related Work.Or are you saying that people generally don't care about the existence of feminist translations in general? Because that's literally the whole point of the OP.
>>25407946incel rage is worthless.
>>25407947>y-you're an incel
>>25407947incel rage is valuable. incel rage is valid.
>>25407915>Dat nigga was a good kang!Tyrone sounds so happy here
>>25407947valuable enough to get you to solve a captcha :3
>>25406509>Most women regardless if they explicitly deny or affirm it if you asked them their views would probably unanimously align>would probablyI love it when incels give us their insights into female psychology.
>>25407970Isn't that basically what feminists think, though? That all women basically agree with them? They don't even recognize the legitimacy of women who disagree with them, they just claim that it's "internalized misogyny."
>>25407970>I love it when the working class give us their insights into bourgeois psychology.
>>25406561Literally anyone can read the discussions about translations.
>>25407970That was a comment defending conflating feminism with the opinions all women because (supposedly) all women's opinions unanimously align. Are you saying that feminists are incels?
>>25407921Because most people have the wool pulled over their eyes. Most people just naturally assume professional translations are accurate. Most Americans probably think English is the original language of The Bible. It takes a free thinker to ask "hey, did they intentionally omit any parts of this story?" or "did the translater of this piece once tweet 'kill all white men?'"
>>25407970I've actually had several girlfriends and fucked quite a few so you're pretty off base with that accusation.
>why does culture and academia act as a mirror of the status quo of its time and placeMaybe because...mainstream culture and academia are both downstream from the status quo?
>>25408007Women don't "agree" or "disagree" with anything, they just echo and amplify whatever the men and women they respect the most think and say. Women are purely reactive, and therefore don't possess the capacity to hard agree or hard disagree with anything in an ideological sense.
>>25405895>why is this a thing that the academia seems to tolerate?>The worst condemnation I've ever seen academia give...This *is* academia. I know most people here are too right-wing to even attempt to hack it beyond an undergraduate degree, but take it from someone in the belly of the beast: the thing you need to get your head around is that the old academia is virtually gone. There are no more elderly WASP professors wearing tweed and smoking pipes. They're dead. Perhaps there are a few close-to-retirement culturally conservative boomers a little skeeved out by their bolshie graduate students, but for the most part the reigns of power in academia are held by gen Xers and elder millennials, who have been molded in postmodern critique culture since the start of their education in the 90s or late 80s at the earliest. I think we all know what the younger generation of zoomer grad students look like, and it isn't getting any better. there certainly is an intellectual right-wing counterculture but entryism into academia isn't part of it; that whole world lives on substack and social media. I want to stress that these 'academics' aren't *evil* or anything, but the great postcolonial scolding through the 80s and 90s fundamentally broke the transmission of truly fruitful, searching intellectual insight. for these people, academia is just an exercise in critiquing power structures. that is the highest goal of the intellect. 'academia' (at least the humanities and social sciences) is lost for another generation or more to anyone who doesn't toe the party line.
>>25407921>>25409960Note that none of these works openly advertise themselves as feminist translations and interpretations. They advertise themselves as straightforward translations of the text, not something that's been altered and editorialized to fit a particular worldview.
>>25405895>>allowed>>to erase and eradicate white malesare you very new and very naive?this whole society is anti white, anti western, anti rationality.the color revolution is upon us, wake up chuck.
>>25410208I think people were trying to emulate the point of view of Homer before, though, regardless of the society they lived in.
>>25405895The simplest explanation - its a form of desecration of our heritage. To put it bluntly, its a humiliation ritual conducted by conquerors vandalizing and defiling our civilizational icons to assert dominance. A struggle rages between factions and ideologues. Our civilization is engaged in an eternal quest for ideas over which men contend. Those who position themselves as arbiters and guardians of the institution’s cultural temple, the academics collaborating with institutions to relay expected social messaging, take it upon themselves to assert the right to utopia. They are ideologues who view themselves as the guarantors of its mission and entrust themselves to be the guardians of the ideal, thereby casting themselves as gods among men. This hubris drives them further still: they are seized by a madness for power and a thirst for destruction, abuse, and profanation carried to the extreme, in a display of grotesque excess. This impulse, transcending ideologies, inevitably overwhelms the ideologue in his quest. As he senses his goal drawing near, he ends up being consumed by it, and he is reduced to madness and destruction for the sake of it, the concept of beauty or the sublime are forgotten, for they have surrendered entirely to the ego and megalomania of their ideal. Thus, the transgression perpetuates itself, and the degradation only deepens, for it is all that remains.
>>25407947incel rage has actually done a lot to advance literature
>>25405895So feminists can literally rewrite history like 1984, eventually they will ban all the old books for being doubleplus wrongthink.
>>25405923The point is pretty simple: that a man translating in 1616, or 1725, or 1900, brings to the Greek text more of his own century than he perhaps realises. This isn’t a scandal. It is barely even interesting, except to people who’ve made it interesting by refusing to notice it. Samuel Butler said the Iliad and Odyssey have been school books for nearly 3,000 years, and what more cruel revenge could dullness take on genius? Three thousand years of schoolteachers. Think about it.
>>25406094>literally anything that tries to be new...Such as the Odyssey, a nearly 3000-year-old narrative?Obviously, the translator's first task in encountering such a text is to NOT innovate.>but muh heckin' [relativist sophisms]!Spare your breath.
>>25414521This betrays a misunderstanding of the very topic. ‘Don’t innovate’ smuggles in the premise that there's a neutral, already-settled Odyssey sitting behind all translations, which the good translator transmits and the bad one distorts. There isn't. Every translation is a set of choices about meter, register, connotation. ‘Don’t innovate’ was never actually an option in this task; it’s just a way of saying ‘innovate the way the last respected translator innovated’. What you’re reacting to (and if you think about it, it should go without saying) isn’t a misstep from Homer but more a misstep from English translations of Homer.
>>25414301It's interesting that you think that the Odyssey shouldn't be taught in schools, but what does that have to do with translation?
>>25414572I've heard this rhetorical trick before. People have said, for instance, that it is nearly impossible for media to be absolutely historically accurate to imply that trying your best within your limitations to be historically accurate is pointless and its okay to just make shit up. Which is total nonsense.You are trying to defend deliberate mistranslations based on propping up ideological narratives based on the fact that there is no absolute, objective, flawless translation. Which is also nonsense.
>>25414648 I thought I was being very clear: translation is never neutral. Word and context choices that felt natural to a Victorian schoolteacher inevitably reflect as much of Victorian society as it does the text. Do this for three millennia and by the time you get to ‘standard’ 20th century translation, you’re not just reading Homer, you’re getting Homer plus centuries of assumptions. So when Wilson translates a word like dmoiai as 'slaves' instead of the traditional 'maids', she's breaking with translation tradition, not with the Greek.
>>25414658Nobody's saying 'no translation is perfect, so accuracy doesn't matter.’ The claim is the opposite: that past translations were held to a lower accuracy standard than people assume, because their inaccuracies matched the culture's assumptions and so didn't read as inaccuracies.
/lit/ likes to think that it can engage with a text critically just because they are on the /lit/ board.none of these losers can read greek much less translate it into coherent english, and despite this must argue as to whether or not the text is translated "well" or "correctly"the odyssey is a highly feminist piece of literature in the first place. women occupy all relevant points of power within the narrative. odysseus is acted upon by women more so than acting within the story; when he does take action, it is largely self-defeating and/or egotistic.the fact that a woman translated it has nothing to do with the larger narrative trends within the text. it is surprising it took that long to have a woman translate it
>>25414572>‘Don’t innovate’ smuggles in the premise that there's a neutral, already-settled Odyssey sitting behind all translations, which the good translator transmits and the bad one distortsThere is: the Greek original.
>>25414689Well, that claim is false. Simple as that.Older translations were held to a higher standard because there was a larger proportion of society capable of reading the originals and critiquing the translations on the basis of fidelity.
>>25414758
>>25414758You’re still not getting it.
>>25414757Even then people arrive at the text with expectations. But more to the point, there’s no English translation sitting behind it that you either find or fail to. Language doesn’t map onto language 1:1.
>>25406073>The right wing is extremely insufferable latelyThis is why neither side indefinitely stays in power.
Nolanbros...
It’s propaganda retard. These women unwittingly work for Rothschild bankers.
