He's realized that if the US fails, or if it ceases to be a democracy, that's it for Liberalism.

Who's going to defend Liberalism if America does not? Russia won't. China won't. India won't. Europe MIGHT but it's not nearly strong enough to do that heavy lifting on its own, not geopolitically. Japan won't, it never has. Brazil? LOL.

The United States failing to defend Liberalism will be Liberalism's end.

>>25406943
There's always Argentina.

>>25406943
If France and Britian woke up, worked together and stopped being such massive pussies, they could be a strong force for liberalism in a multipolar world. BIG IF T B H.

>>25406943
US is too big to fail™

>>25406984
And China will grow larger

>>25407004
Not as big as my dick though.

>>25406976
>liberalism=Brexit
>work together=EU
Those are opposite ends.

>>25406938
If you really want this reduced to 1 point then it was Fukuyama's revisions on recognition.

>>25406938
>*hits bong*
Duuuude, history has like... totally ended maaan, thats why we need to invade the entire middle east and destroy America.
>>25406943
>>25406976
>>25407039
Europe isn't even remotely Liberal anymore, even Eastern Europeans believe more in natural rights that Western Europeans, it's a joke.

>>25407140
>Europe isn't even remotely Liberal anymore, even Eastern Europeans believe more in natural rights that Western Europeans, it's a joke.

Literally elaborate even a little on this vague post.

>>25407039
That's not even remotely true, bona fide liberals were heavily divided on brexit. There are strong liberal arguments both against and in favour of membership of the EU. Some liberals in favor view the European Union as a vital tool for furthering the goals of liberalism such as free trade, open borders, and international cooperation. Plenty of other conservative liberals argued that the EU’s centralised bureaucracy and regulatory overreach infringe upon national sovereignty and individual liberty.

>>25407140
>Eastern Europeans believe more in natural rights
Can you show me any meaningful examples of Eastern European states and populations valued life, liberty and property more than western European states like France and the UK? A huge reason the UK state has such difficulty completing infrastructure projects is down to the existence of property rights the population enjoys under English common law.

>>25407545
>Can you show me any meaningful examples of Eastern European states and populations valued life, liberty and property more than western European states like France and the UK?
Just look at their population breakdowns. France and UK are *literally* committing societal and cultural and ethnic suicide, and proud of it. Their whole societies are antithetical to life itself. Eastern europeans may still live shitty miserable pop declining lives, but at least when the growth curve reverses they'll still be eastern european instead of brazil.

>>25407184
Name one western European country that has a pro-free speech government, there are none. All of them are gradually increasing speech restrictions, the EU itself is aggressively anti-free speech and pro-technocracy.
Are you high or stupid?

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>>25406984
Oh, America won't fail, it will just transform. The old America of the Constitution and the Declaration will be swept away, and a reworked United States will take its place.

America 2.0 will be a monarchy. It'll make the same transition Rome made. Or, well, it will have to be a dictatorship at first, given how dramatic the shift will be and how messy things will get. But once America gets a good line of succession going, things will establish themselves just as they did for thousands of years before the 20th Century came along.

I cannot understand the disparity that we’re seeing today. How do we have technocrats and oligarchs promising a future of immense prosperity, abundance and shared wealth for all because of things like AI, and then elder statesmen and intellectuals claiming that modern civilization is actually in decline? Sometimes it’s the exact same people doing this — Elon Musk will one moment claim that his companies will make everyone a trillionaire and bring paradise on Earth and then the next moment he’s saying the West is collapsing and human civilization will disintegrate because of low birth rates and AI singularity. I can’t square any of this, these contradictions today just make no sense to me. Who do I listen to; what do I listen to? If liberalism is spreading then why is America in decline? If AI will save us all why are you also saying it’ll doom us all?

>>25408547
Well it’s quite simple. AI and tech oligarchy is their last-ditch gamble to prevent decline. Elon knows we’re utterly fucked given current trajectories so he quickly bought X to promote racism and nationalism in hopes of boosting birth rates and is going all-in on promising he will save the world with AI and space exploration. They’re all just coping. They have such little faith in humanity that they want to build the Machine God and the Matrix to keep us under permanent control.

>>25408547
We are at a tensions point in history between a second rennaissance and a second dark ages, everyone is scrambling to decide what the future will be, people like the WEF have their plan and then people like bitcoiners have their plan, it's a chaotic battle for the future where you can't tell who is on which side because there are so many paradigms being born and destroyed every day.

>>25406943
>Europe MIGHT
Europe can't even defend eagainst islam

>>25406943
No. The point of the End of History is not that liveralism will always exist. It's that liberalism is, basically, the ultimate form of government

>>25407545
>That's not even remotely true
I know. I was mocking the fact that many liberals believe it to be true. Liberalism is fucked in Europe in no small part due to the torchbearers for the ideology being a bunch of complete fuckwits.

Liberalism as an ideology attracts a bunch of useful fucking idiots because "Who doesn't want to be free?" when in actuality ideologies always have to come down to real world policies put into practice. Who is free to do what is ultimately what matters and the politicians selling liberalism would sooner legalize lead pipes for drinking water than reduced speech restrictions.

Honestly it's just a trash ideology. The parts that work can easily be baked into other systems and the parts that don't give the worst people the worst excuses to call for or do the worst shit.

>>25408740
Okay but it clearly isn’t. Liberalism cannot possibly survive the coming tides of demographic collapse, transhumanism and techno-feudalism in the West. You can delay the inevitable by turning everyone in the world into LGBT individualist consumer parasites like the West has been aggressively doing in the 21st century but eventually their luck will run out.

>>25406938
Welp, jig's up fellas

>>25409064
>Liberalism cannot possibly survive the coming tides of demographic collapse, transhumanism and techno-feudalism in the West.
Literally none of this matters to Fukuyama. His point is that, from a historical perspective, liberalism is the ultimate form of government aimply because it alone best manages to fulfill people's deepest desires for recognition. Have you actually read the book?

Every thread about him makes it clear that no one here has read The End of History. Before you start making up entirely irrelevant criticism, I encourage you to read that book. Even just reading the introduction, which is suitably long for the mental midgets on here, is enough to give you a good idea.

>>25409100
That is the dumbest thing I have read today and that's saying something given that a libertarian thread is still active.

>>25409111
Kek, are you going to keep seething about Libertarians in every thread? Good, you deserve to seethe for supporting Mao's atrocities, keep seething. Libertarian KINGS live in your head rent free.

>>25409116
Lol someone is mad

>>25409100
Not that anon, but I have read Kojeve's lectures on Hegel for a French theory seminar. Fukuyama's thesis is essentially based on Kojeve's ideas.

Kojeve helped popularize the Hegelian concept of thymos, the fundamental human need for recognition, that you and Fukuyama are talking about. In our liberal democratic utopia, recognition is reduced to social media metrics, LinkedIn endorsements, and consumer identities. Every marker of human distinction is commodified into a brand position. People are flattened into standardized archetypes to produce compliant, plug-and-play consumers for corporate templates. Fukuyama completely missed Kojeve's own despair over the "universal homogeneous state." Kojeve explicitly stated that post-historical man would revert to being comfortable, satisfied animals.

Liberal democracy redirects the desire for recognition into exhausting, meaningless channels: starting a Medium or Substack, writing this very post, building a personal brand, optimizing dating profiles. This is a Sisyphean struggle for visibility in a crowded marketplace. It is capitalistic competition for attention, a completely different phenomenological experience from actual recognition.

It's also a fundamentally bourgeois and parochial lens. Liberal democracy only offers recognition to the Western PMC. They get to vote for pre-vetted candidates and express themselves within the bounds of monetizable demographic categories. This satisfies them, but ignores the gig worker or the laborer's experience.

Ultimately, Fukuyama mistakes Freudian sublimation for the satisfaction of thymos. The need for recognition is channeled into voting, consuming, symbolic protests or social media gestures that get digested into content for the targeted systems. If liberal democracy actually fulfilled our deepest desires, people would be truly fulfilled and not emptier than ever. Anxiety, depression, and loneliness are skyrocketing. People turn to cults, conspiracy theories, and strongmen who promise a return to meaningful struggle. The rise of populist authoritarianism is the direct result of liberal democracy's shallow, consumerist recognition failing to nourish the human need for meaning.

I don't give a shit. I'll be dead before any of this matters.

>>25408547
When Musk or any of these technofascist transhumanist biohacker cultist freaks say "AI will create abundance for everyone," what they mean is "AI will create abundance for people like me, and if you're lucky, some of it might trickle down, but probably you'll just become economically obsolete and we'll have to figure out what to do with you later.", and that is the most polite way of phrasing it after being cleaned up by the PR firms. If we want to be blunt and honest, Curtis Yarvin's proposal involving biodiesel and Peter Thiel's rants about the antichrist are likely closer to what they envision. The whole utopian chase is a story they tell to maintain legitimacy, to keep the social contract from completely disintegrating, to ensure that people don't start building guillotines. "Don't worry, the robots will free you from labor!" Sure they will. They'll free you from labor the same way the enclosure movement freed peasants from their commons. Which is to say they'll destroy your bargaining power and leave you scrambling for scraps in whatever NRx hellscape emerges.

America is paradoxically declining precisely because liberalism succeeded in becoming global, which means American workers now compete in a global labor market while American capital can jurisdiction-shop for the best tax havens and the cheapest labor. Liberalism went global, but solidarity didn't. The nation-state is increasingly just a container for managing the contradictions of global capitalism. And let's be real: "American decline" means different things to different people. To a rust belt guy in Ohio whose factory closed and whose town is now a Dollar General and an opioid crisis, yeah, that's decline. To a tech executive who is seeing a growing portfolio, things have literally never been better. We're living in two different countries that happen to share a flag and economic zone. The promise of abundance is there to justify further deregulation and privatization: "Don't constrain us with regulation! We're building utopia!"
The doomerism is there to justify emergency measures that bypass democracy "We don't have time for politics! Civilization is at stake!" It's the same move fascist governments have always made: create a simultaneous sense of imminent paradise and imminent collapse, so that people grant you unlimited power to navigate between the two.

Technofascists are hoping they can somehow thread the needle: automate everything, create massive wealth, maintain their hegemony and social infrastructure without triggering mass revolt or having to make major concessions. It's a fantasy. Read about the Industrial Revolution. Read about the Gilded Age. Read about what happened to societies during previous technological revolutions. Read Polanyi's The Great Transformation. Read about what happened when the market became "disembedded" from social relations. And above all, read Robespierre, Marx, Lenin, and Mao.

>>25409137
>And above all, read Robespierre, Marx, Lenin, and Mao.
Shan't.

>>25409137
It's sad that you can see reality and where we're headed and still come to the most retarded political takes. We really are fucked if the poison can even get you.

>>25409100
Yes I have, and I also read Our Posthuman Future where Fukuyama admits that liberalism may very well unravel through future technological forces. That is happening right now. The idea of equality and individual recognition is not going to mean shit in the future where demographics are fucked, racism surges again and transhumanism means there are undeniably superior people among us.

>>25409121
>Fukuyama completely missed Kojeve's own despair over the "universal homogeneous state."
Not sure this is correct. Fukuyama acknowledges that a world dominated by liberalism will be pathetic and sad. He just thinks it's the best-possible outcome for humanity nonetheless because it's better than us killing each other over religion or nationalism.

>>25409184
>undeniably superior people
inferior*

>>25408063
Wasn't Louis the 13th gay? What are you implying by that picture?

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>>25406938
oh look more chink shit getting spammed go kys slanty eyed gook kek

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>>25409149
He's too Left, but fundamentally he's correct. Liberalism is run by deranged Judeo-Yankee oligarchs and the whole project will come crashing down unless they succeed in their AI power-grab and expanding imperialism in the new theaters of Ukraine, Gaza, Iran, etc. Look at how these tech companies are responding to China producing superior AI models to America and making them open-source
>erm, so the tech companies don't own everything and control the masses like cattle? that's heckin problematic dystopian authoritarianism!
Such is the true face of libshittery once they stop with all their priestly sermons about equality and butt-fucking as the highest ideal of civilization. You will own nothing and be happy.

>>25409251
China's AI policy is ultra-liberal though, and that's a good thing. It's the west's AI policy that is extremely totalitarian.

>>25409271
You are looking at it the wrong way. The truth is that liberalism itself is just as "authoritarian" as the authoritarian bogeymen it attacks. It conceals this by creating a society of passive consumer cattle who think they have real participation in the system through elections and mass media, plus great material conditions. If we ever reach the ability to create a truly post-scarcity society then liberalism will sabotage this and try to enrich the boomer zogbots in charge -- see Trump's extraordinary corruption and America seething about China outpacing us

>>25409288
You're socialist bro I'm not going to look at the world through the lens of my dictator better than your dictator, whoever dictates less is usually better in my view. And China agrees with me at least about innovation, they are dictating less in the AI sector and winning because of it.

>>25409137
Marx's idea of labour theory of value was about the dumbest thing I've ever heard, and having worked in manufacturing most of my working life it did not surprise me to find out his rich friend basically gave him his income and apartment.

>>25406943
norway. its a country of non-retards, its actually democratic and has a powerful oil industry.

>>25409251
China being better at building a technology that is going to be banned eventually is not a victory. I guess it's a good thing at least that they're helping to force the correction to happen sooner.

>>25409703
Not going to be banned, Internet will just become heavily censored and locked down (in the name of freedom and shit because lol of course)

>>25406938
refuted by dugin

Bump

>>25410220
I should clarify. It will be banned for public use and become a tool of the state to manufacture propaganda and misinformation once it hits the point of being untraceable. Maybe they'll keep a slop version available as a set of keys to entertain the retards who are currently generating slop but I need to cope somehow.

>>25409105
Do you seriously expect lit to...read?

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>>25409105
>>25411610
I don't NEED to read The End Of History because I've already absorbed Fukuyama's central thesis. I KNOW what he means by "History." I just disagree with him. And I know he gets it from Hegel, but I disagree with Hegel too.

As a practicing Christian I don't believe in the Hegelian idea of the Telos of History being the self-actualization of human liberty. The final goal of history is to win all souls to Christ. Indeed, insofar as "liberty," and Liberalism, interfere with the spread of the Gospel, they are, in fact, interfering with God's own Plan for History.

>>25411639
But he didn't get it from Hegel he got it from arguably an interpretation of Hegel

>>25408063
Few things are more amusing than you poor, oblivious souls who think America is in some proto-Caesarian state. Buddy, we didn't just pass Caesar, we passed the whole damned Principate; America is very thoroughly in its Dominate stage, and may even start heading in a Byzantine direction ere long.

>>25406943
Since 2001 European nations have gone from 1:25 being foreign born to 1:5. Add in those with foreign born parents. Then look only at ages 0-5.

In Germany, 43% of children five and under have a migrant background. In England and Wales it is 43%. In France it is 34%, but close to half in urban areas.

The only reason this hasn't shifted society as much to date is because it is heavily loaded into younger age brackets so you don't have the shift in terms of people actually in charge of everything quite yet.

Europe isn't going to survive its own demographic replacement, which will be significantly more rapid than that of the Americas.

>>25410220
>>25411607
Social media is getting out of control so The Powers That Be will be start to lock it down progressively until it is no more. It has already started with Web Attestation, ID verification and other measures. Eventually only certain channels like marketplaces or business websites will be allowed.

Social media got out of control because they didn't estimate the impact memetics would have on the collective. There are also some individuals, we may as well call them Mules, that have the extraordinary gift of charisma at a distance, and sway millions one tweet at a time. So while social media is a very good medium to distribute pro-establishment propaganda, it is even a more efficient medium of distributing populist or subversive propaganda. In the last few years, they made the camculation, saw the numbers didn't fit, and decided this whole internet experiment has to be put down.

What remain will be very locked down and purely used for state bureaucracy, business channels, and an official news feed (specially curated goycattle news).

I now make a prediction that eventually, if they haven't yet, realize that the people having computing machines is too much of a risk too, snd will institute the move to "thin clients", as they call them, which are nothing more that dumb monitors that show what a CPU at a datacenter is processing. You won't be able to run any significant software locally since, and everything will be remotely rendered and streamed down to your thin device. With the end of software also comes the end of the era of democratized technological power, and with it comes the death of many of modern ways of subverting the state. Can't have anyone having a computer, least they mount it into a drone with explosives on it. The state will own all the technology and will use it to keep you controlled, and you will be completely alienated from it.

>>25411714


>>25409137
>>25408672
While it may seem that there are two possible outcomed, the game has already been decided. It has begun to be widely acknowledged in AI circles that AGI/ASI is a chimera that will not be realized, at least not in the near term, and I think middle term too, or with current neural-network technology. Given this prospect, the powers that be, although they are continuing to sell this imminent post-jobs AI domination utopia-distopia for economical purposes (given that they have gambled and invested the whole economy into it, a pathethic move that is backfiring tremendously if you ask me, since China has caught up and is now releasing for free what the Americans thought to be SuperDeluxe Unobtanium, a deliverate move to weaken the big american gamble via causing an AI race to the bottom (since American AI labs will lose an unfathomable amount of money training new models that cannot comoete economically with Chinese ones)), have already accepted that it's not getting vetter, and in fact this whole AI stuff might have even accelerated the rot. This can explain the increasing nervousness of elites trying to figure out what's next now that the train is inevitably going off the rails. Some, like the ones pushing for increased digital authoritarianism, still have their hopes set on internet controls and mass flock camera-style surveillance, which they think mighy be enough to control the beast. An example of this group is Larry Ellison, the Oracle guy. Some others, like Peter Thiel (which btw are most race realists), despite also pushing for what the first group wants, have already realized the unevitable, and are already junping ship. Thiel, in particular, is moving to Argentina along with his family.

All in all, the world getting more authoritarian before it all coming crashing down is inevitable, now that people have seen what liberalism offers and have rejected it. Like other anon in this thread said in other words, the Enlightment thinkers underestimated the humsn need for meaning and real stakes.

>>25406938
liberalism is just better for maximizing knowledge and pleasure and enjoyment of life. he was right and still is

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>>25411660
According to who? America's in a bit of a haggard state right now, but it was after the Battle of Actium too. After 80 years of war, tumult, ruin, and strife, it's entirely possible that Rome could have simply collapsed when Actium was over. But it didn't, because Augustus happened to be a preternaturally capable administrator who knew exactly what to do with his new absolute power, to ensure the continuation of the Roman State.

It will all depend on if America gets an Augustus-figure. They're one in a million, and getting one is absolutely no guarantee. But if there's any nation in history that's been about as lucky as Rome, it's the United States of America.

We are heading toward a North Korean one world government, Klaus Schwab is in ecstasy, if this happens the world will be destroyed, or worse, a nightmare.

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>>25411699
So, uh, everybody knows that if there's a population that you don't like in your nation-state, you can just kill them, right? Or otherwise displace them? Like, put them into camps or something.

This talk of the inevitability of demographic replacement in this or that nation has always puzzled me, because if push comes to shove, if a nation wants to survive it's always willing to do terrible things to do it. Especially as the United States becomes less Liberal and its "rules-based international order" dissolves, you are going to see nations start to do some real pre-20th-Century shit, I guarantee it.

Israel has arguably kicked it off already with their desire to ethnically cleanse Gaza. The Chinese have done the same with the Uiyghurs. It's coming to the West, sooner or later, including Western Europe, perhaps. Some might say it's unthinkable in the current First World, but there's lots of things that are unthinkable, until they're not.

Everyone who's been eager for the End of the End of History, eager for the movement of Events to resume, is going to get exactly what they want. And they'd better not start crying if it gets ugly.

>>25411786
You underestimate how cucked Europeans are, literally nothing will happen. They don’t even go after migrant criminals and you’re predicting they’ll start oppressing all non-Europeans

>>25411776
You're so focused on looking for a great man to worship that you've completely overlooked the whole point of the story. In terms of the degradation of the American people on a genetic, moral, and institutional level we're very much in a Late Antiquity stage. Of course the government isn't as centralized in the hands of one man, but that's not the point, the institutions and constitution of the Republic are still very much in the trash. As for Augustus, sure he was great, but he didn't really do much for the Roman race; he was the servant of an Empire which was already taking on a life of its own completely independent of their welfare. I'm sure if we get a man like that you'll rush to kiss his feet just so you can feel something in your miserable slave life.

>>25411832
This. I'm a Swede, by the time us Swedes would be up for any sort of uprising, we would already be a minority. We voted for this (not me, but the majority). Thinking of revolt is a cope, the truth is that most of europe is done, if we think of europe being actually european that is.

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>>25411946
There is no man who is more a slave than the man who thinks himself absolutely free. We all have our masters. It's just that for some, they are conscious masters, whereas for others, they are subconscious masters. And the latter case is the more miserable, because then a person's chains are invisible, yet he is bound by them just as thoroughly.

>>25411786
let alone holding a gun, the average frog/kraut has never even seen one in his life and you want them to take the matter into their own hands?

>>25409137
>read Robespierre, Marx, Lenin, and Mao.

Just read Buonarotti, you'll get the texts that inspired fascism, communism, and anarchism all at once

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>>25410248
>refuted by Dugin
Ah yes, the famous lecture: "Third worldist swamp creature divel: Russia and Polynesia - Sea of Ice and Sea of Sea" in which he argues that Russia and Polynesia must unite against the ebil wect

truly we are living in the end times but for real this time. the west has fallen.

>>25406943
>if it ceases to be a democracy
a comprehensive 2014 princeton study already identified the US as an oligarchy

>>25412776
Any day now

>>25413113
it's a continuum. Rome didn't fall in a day

>>25407640
Even if we grant that, that isnt because of any proactive stance of eastern europe, thats just because no one WANTS to go to eastern europe and there is no reason to go there.