Why did Fascism fail to produce any notable works of literature unlike Socialism?
>>25407390They were inventing rockets
People are gonna fall for this bait thread anyway so I'll just start it off right
>>25407394Ah yes the great writer Hitler
eeeh, both ideologies maintained inorganic controlled insincere cultural institutions that stifle the creation of real art the only good works of literature socialism produced were ones that had to be clandestinely smuggled out of socialist nations.
>>25407390They were too busy losing literally every war out there lmao
>>25407390D'Annunzio is good.
>>25407390It didn't have enough time to produce much before the powers that be made it social suicide to openly advocate for it.
>>25407433Trvke.
>>25407433Correct
>>25407393And getting blown by them
>>25407440Pre-fascist writer. Just as Marinetti, Szukalski or Jünger, the best artists are the ones who inspire the fascists previously, because the fascists themselves are too stiff and control-obssessed authoritarians once they take control.
>>25407390Art is about emotions and fascists lack empathy, being unable or unwilling to recognize the legitimacy of internal experience. How can one write characters for instance when they can't or won't empathize?
No ideology has produced a single notable work of literature.
>>25407572>fascists lack empathyYour inability to comprehend the fascist perspective is the biggest indication of a lack of empathy here. Not even saying you should agree with it but this shallow villainizing is what prevents real critique of the ideology.
>>25407390They did. Academia has been captured for a long time.
>>25407530But they invented them
>>25407390>all within the state>nothing outside the state >everything for the state Wow real fucking mystery Anyway read Knut Hamsun he was a Nazi at the end of his life.
>>25407390Fascism literally killed German cinema for generations to come. German cinema was prolific, innovative and groundbreaking in the 1920s. All that was lost. There are only very few post war German movies, das Boot among them. Idk about the literature though.
>>25407694*very few good German movies
Pound for one. Also, la Rochelle, Brasillach, Malaparte, Hamsun liked Hitler.Or do you think that fascist literature needs to overtly express a fascistic moral message?
>>25407576I believe I do comprehend it, it just seems incompatible with valuable artistic production
>>25407694Well, some, like the neorealists, said that it was all just worthless trite
>>25407390There’s two things to consider, the leaders and the followers.The leaders are usually too preoccupied with the act of “doing” - materializing their regime is more important than fantasizing about it. Hence why Mein Kampd is garbage literature wise.For the followers, they are meek, tribal men trying to hang on to a stronger man. They have no true beliefs themselves, hence why fascism is relatively non-ideological, as it’s more about a structure of government (ie how a democracy can be left or right wing). Given that, they have nothing to write about, nothing to express, for they have no sincere thoughts besides complying submissively to whatever authority is in charge. The end result is neither camp of fascists is capable of producing good literature.The minor exception is the leader type, but the issue is that for good writers, thejr works will advocate a specific type of government, hence it will be relatively non convincing and die in obscurity unless the author mans up to try to actually directly influence the real world. It tends to be the case that the better a writer such a person is, the less willing they are to deal with the matters of the real world.
>Ctrl+f "Cantos">0 resultsIs this board unironically illiterate? Literally the highest achievement of modern poetry was written by a fascist.
>>25407694German cinema being ass has nothing to do with the nazis, arguably the currwnt exodus of German film makers and artists to the U.Sm is far greater than anything during the period of Nazi Germany. Demand for good stuff is just very low in Germany, they prefer terrible comedies and an occasional anti-war movies.
>>25407440He wanted to be made pregnant by a black man.
>Why did Fascism fail to produce any notable works of literature unlike Socialism?what about my diary?
>>25407735Crucifixions can be art
>>25407859is it notable?
>>25407823>For the followers, they are meek, tribal men trying to hang on to a stronger man. They have no true beliefs themselves, hence why fascism is relatively non-ideologicalStopped reading there. The Nazis barely averted two internal coups in their own party because of political disagreement and all of their organisations acted mostly autonomous from the Dictator, compared to other Dictatorships Nazi Germany was far less centralised.
>>25407866>Stopped reading thereStopped reading there
>>25407394lolthis is really shit. Yes i've read it. 20 years ago actually.
>>25407835I mentioned Pound >>25407734
>>25407390"After even a cursory assessment it is obvious not only that German culture is in decline, but that there are plenty of good reasons why this is the case. Ultimately, nobody can give more than they have - this is true for individuals and this is true for peoples as well. If you invest all your energy in economics, world commerce, parliamentarianism, military engagements, power and power politics, - if you take the quantum of intelligence, seriousness, will, and self-overcoming that you embody and expend it all in this *one* direction, then there won't be any left for the other direction. Culture and the state - let us be honest with ourselves here - these are adversaries: 'Kultur-Staat' is just a modern idea. The one lives off the other, the one flourishes at the expense of the other. All the great ages of culture have been ages of political decline: anything great in the cultural sense is apolitical, even *anti-political*"
>>25407857i mean whomst among us
>>25407823I don't get this, since Hitler never really presented himself as a machp strong man. He always came more across either as a ferocious visionary and often played humble outsider in his speeches, a simple man of the people or a prophet. He personally would stress his military service, but you never saw him wear anything except the simple iron cross he was awarded, which is a notable difference from some other dictators who cover themselves in medals, but it isn't unique to him, granted. He also initially presented himself as a selfless, unmarried bachelor. The paternal picture came mostly from later propaganda which was supposed to smooth his own cultivated persona into something more universally approachable, a harmless codger who just wants peace. Then war comes and gears shift into him being a war leader and Goebbels starts hyping him up into something superhuman.In fact, most modern day dictators, even leftist ones, seem to do the same thing, even pretending to not speak english to appear friendly and relatable to the people. North Korea seems to ham this up, however, and the Kims are all gifted superhumans responsible for everything good in their borders. However, a lot of this stuff is most likely beyond the control of the leader. The stated goal, at least in Hitler's case, but the same can probably be said for the Kims, is the idea that the conflict between individual rule and popular rule has been abolished, as the dictator, a man of prophesy, does not rule by personal, arbitrary will, but perfectly expresses the true will of the people. The people are invited to identify themselves with the leader as part of their own national awakening. It's prefty ridiculous imo, but far from being as brutally simplistic as "strong macho man daddy cool." In fact, it is likely that too much masculine posturing would be detrimental to the dictator, since it would be alienating to the womenfolk. From this, we can infer that the ideal male dictator must also cultivate his feminine side. I won't talk about Jungian psychology here, but Hitler's offocial image did incorporate traditionally feminine elements of his persona, like tenderness to children and even animals, emotional receptivity, chastity, domesticity, and quasi-maternal solitude. All this creates an image of a man who is at once ordinary and more than just a man; an idea or, perhaps, spirit.
>>25407433the best works of literature created out of socialism was ironically suppressed by the governments themselves lol
Fascism is fundamentally anti-intellectual, built around the cult of action. It's entirely umsurprising that they don't produce good literature. There's only so much waffle about listening to the whispers in one's blood that one can hear before the novelty wears off and one must turn one's attention to more serious matters. Justice, beauty, truth. Above all, God. All serious right wing intellectuals take such things far too seriously to debauch themselves in vulgar populism.
>>25407940That is why, even though Hitler was a clumsy writer, he carved his name into history, whereas Evola and his ilk have been forgotten.
>>25407390>Why did Fascism fail to produce any notable works of literature, like Socialism?ftfy
>>25407390Because chuds can only whine about other people artistic creations, they can't ever create anything themselves. Look at videogames also where they go around with a magnifying glass to find "woke" things to get upset over instead of making their own games despite the fact it's has never been easier to make them now
>>25407884>20 years agoYou almost certainly read a censored, biased slop translation
>>25407572Art is not 'about emotions'
>>25407394a political manifesto does not count as literature in this respect, anon.
>>25407940Hamsun and Pound prove you wrong.
>>25408119What is it about then?
>>25407966Sure. No disagreement there, it wasn't criticism of fascism per se, just of fascist art.>>25407966There's going to be exceptions, they don't prove anything. It's not an iron law.
>>25407735Your belief isn't built on a foundation of truth.
>>25407390Didn't last long enough. Also all of the neo-fascists in this thread aren't actually real believers. Their just edgy losers online who want friends and a "unique" community to feel important because he's X demographic. That guy is not going to make an ambitious 100k novel. He's just going to post with a Greek busts and pretend like he read Mein Kampf and Martin Luther
>>25407572Fascism is extreme nationalism which is all about emotion. Eco famously called fascism irrational.
>>25407390What are the best socialist authors and novels?
Fascism and conservativism is anti-creativity. Simple as. Everything must be in a neat box, truth is something that was uncovered once in the past and needs to be endlessly recited. Obey hierarchy and authority.
>>25408818Name one good leftist book from the past 10 years
>>25408823And the predictable "what about leftists?" comment. Because to you anyone who isn't a conservative is a leftist.
>>25408823Fascism is left wing.
>>25408830If leftists are so creative what are some of their best recent achievements? I can name old leftist classics like Lu Xun's Diary of a Madman (1918) but what have they done since the advent of the Internet?
>>25408823I would argue leftism and "woke-ism" is a very recent thing so similarly to fascism we just haven't had enough time. Now if we're talking about socialist and communist literature then yeah there's plenty out there. But I think it's really funny people would compare Marx to your average blue-haired leftist
>>25408818Fascism is anti-art because it makes the earthly aims of the state primary, and bans all that might subvert or reach above it in search of something higher. This is not a left or right thing; the communist states were no different.>Everything must be in a neat box, truth is something that was uncovered once in the past and needs to be endlessly recitedArt being created with respect to some aesthetic ideal, a perfect form, a summum bonum, was the standard for much of art history. The idea that art is about mere 'creativity' or self-expression is a relatively recent development. None of this has anything to do with conservatism per se. There is nothing anti-art or even anti-creativity about the idea of a singular truth, forms, constraints, reverence for inherited symbols, and much of the old understanding of art - art as craft, manifestations of the good, religious worship, ritual, commemoration, moral education - should be appealing to conservative sensibilities, but art as such barely exists anymore.Ironically, the reason conservative art sucks is largely because conservatism has bought into the progressive liberal understanding of what art is and can't help but resent and fail at it
>>25407390"RAAAWRRR! IM A POWERFUL DICTATOR!" can only produce so many artworks just like "waahhhh, i deserve free shit" can only produce so many artworks. Both are dull unartistic forms of parasitism.
>>25409080Idk what's with this idealistic insistence of art as this fluffy warm freedom thing. Art is basically always propaganda produced to influence other people
>>25409104>Art is basically always propaganda produced to influence other peopleKek, your mind has been totally twisted by ideology, you can't even appreciate art anymore
>>25407390lies, you have celine (quirky apolitical centrist) and junger (getting diarrhea in muddy trenches is nietzschean vitalism)you also had some crappy paintings and poems
>>25409108If you're dumb enough to think that art isn't propaganda then you're not in a position to talk about what is or isn't propaganda.
>>25407390Such a shitty bait post. Fascists produced plenty of literature works: Masonería, Le Idee che non muoiono, Europe: An Empire of 400 Million Men, The Alternative, Das kann doch nicht das Ende sein,... . Not to forget all the memoirs by the Nazi Generals and soldiers that shaped the pop-culture of the Eastern Front until the early 2010's. Maybe you or most of the board have nevrr heard of those, but I can say with certainty that neither you nor most of the board for that matter has ever enganged with the ideology beyond the supposed idea they got from American pop-culture.
>>25407390op is a commie
>>25407394His second one was better
>>25409241Also, from Nazi Germany alone, it's difficult to say what the cultural footprint of the regime was, it was certainly nor the peak of German culture, however I want to note, the Post-war Allies book burnings in Germany were of a greater scale than that of the Nazis, destroying tens of tousands pf books and blacklisting over 30.000 individual titles. Just for comparison, the nazis destroyed 20.000 books and blacklisted over 4.000 throughout their entire lifespan (which went on for more than double as long as denazification in Germany). Not that every single piece the Allies blacklisted was good, but there certainly was an imprint they left behind, otherwise denazification would not have been necessary.
>>25409255>destroying tens of tousands pf books and blacklisting over 30.000 individual titlesNani?! You're telling me my tolerant liberalism was more repressive than the N-nazis! This can't be happening!
>>25409241>>25409255Coping, seething, and brown
>>25407390a jeet made this thread
It didn't. Your brain is rotten by weed, cocaine and putrid ideas.
>>25409920denounce vishnu
>>25407390Tell me about notable socialist literature, I want to have a laugh.
>>25409080>Fascism is anti-art because it makes the earthly aims of the state primaryYou seem to be confusing fascism with communism. Fascism places an aesthetic and spiritual ideal above materialism.>Art being created with respect to some aesthetic ideal, a perfect form, a summum bonumSo fascism.
>>25408823Vassilis Palaiokostas memoir was very engaging and made me lol a few times. One of the better books I've read in the last few years, enough so that it comes to mind immediately.
>>25407390Because they unironically 'think' (probably not even the right word, it's more akin to the way an insect deterministically responds to pheromones) like this: >>25409104/Thread
>>25410039>>25409928
>>25407694German film from the 20s was degenerate schlock
>>25409942Joyce and Dostoyevsky both had socialist sympathies but dropped it later in life
>>25410130I used a diaper when I was a baby and dropped it later in life, does that mean I'm a diaperfag?
>>25410039That's literally a leftist way of viewing art, you dumb bitch. You faggots don't even know what you yourselves believe.
>>25410203>Anon knows that fascists are stupid bugs >This means anon must be a different species of stupid bug No.
>>25407835His buddy Wyndham Lewis was multi-talented and tried to form an artistic movement, naturally no one ever talks about him because his politics are wrong for current year.Art doesn't exist for commies unless it's explicitly or implicitly anti-'Nazi'
>>25410242Nigga there's literally nothing controversial in saying art is propaganda, either conscious or unconscious. It's literally Art History 101.>but it looks pretty!!So what?
>>25407390Fascism existed during a brief 20~ year period much of which was spent fighting in an apocalyptic war. Socialism existed in russia for 70~ years with long periods of peace. Franco’s spain did last a long time but they dropped falangism and it was a minor country.If germany won ww2 maybe it could have produced a great work. If tsarist russia, a brutal right wing regime even more backwards than the fascists, could produce great literature than I don’t see why the fascist countries could not have..
Celine’s pamphlets are literally the most important literary works of the 20th century
What does it mean for a work to be explicitly fascist or socialist? A lot of works contain those themes but it's not like we can identify some sort of universally accepted fascist/socialist canon.As for the authors themselves, there were plenty of individual ones who believed in fascism or socialism in some form, but even then it would be rather dishonest to characterize their works as completely ideological. It's the same problem that comes up when you characterize someone like Tolkien's works as inherently "Catholic" or "pagan". You're not evaluating the work on its own merits.Anyway, Knut Hamsun was probably one of the most important writers who explicitly supported National Socialism throughout his life.
>he doesn't know
>Anonymous - The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion>Codreanu, Corneliu Zelea - For My Legionaries>de Benoist, Alain - Manifesto for a European Renaissance>Devi, Savitri - The Lightning and the Sun>Evola, Julius - Revolt Against the Modern World>Faye, Guillaume - Why We Fight>Ford, Henry - The International Jew>Grant, Madison - The Passing of the Great Race>HITLER, ADOLF - MEIN KAMPF>Joyce, William - Twilight Over England>Junger, Ernst - Storm of Steel>Luther, Martin - The Jews and their Lies>MacDonald, Kevin B. - The Culture of Critique>Mosley, Oswald - The Alternative>Nietzsche, Friedrich - Beyond Good and Evil>Pierce, William Luther - The Turner Diaries and Who We Are>Plato - The Republic>Pound, Ezra - The Cantos>Raspail, Jean - The Camp of the Saints>Redbeard, Ragnar - Might is Right>Riis-Knudsen, Povl Heinrich - National Socialism: The Biological World View>Rockwell, George Lincoln - This Time the World>Rosenberg, Alfred - The Myth of the 20th Century>Schmitt, Carl - Political Theology>Venner, Dominique - The Shock of History>Yockey, Francis Parker - Imperium
>>25410337It kind of sucked.I'm wondering if Serpent's Walk might be better if anyone's read it.
>>25407572Fascism is literally built on emotions, aesthetics and aurafarming, hence all right-wing authors of note are poets and fiction writers: Pound, D'Annunzio, Hamsun, Herbert, London, Lovecraft, Rochelle, Celine, Mishima, etc.Right-wing attempts at Theory (Evola, Guenon, etc.) meanwhile are a total failure.Leftism is more like the opposite. If you go to leftist spaces all they do is discuss Theory: Marx, Engels, Proudhon, Luxemburg, Bakunin, Trotsky, Bordiga, Mao, Foucault, etc.Left-wing poets and fiction authors exist but nobody gives a shit about them. And mainstream leftist-produced pop-culture fiction is just: "let's take some old story and insert blacks and feminism into it".
>>25410365Yeah I read theory
Fascism is pathologically anti-intellectual. It exalts instinct, action, and nebulous blood over abstract reason and critical thought. Socialism (and particularly Marxism) produced a massive body of critical theory, literature, and art because it was rooted in a critique of material conditions, class alienation, and historical dialectics that lent itself to deep sociological exploration. Fascism, operating on pure reactionary emotion, anti-intellectualism, and the violent suppression of the self, can only produce propaganda. When your entire worldview is reduced to beating the shit out of your political opponents and worshipping a strongman, your literary output is going to reflect the depth of a muddy puddle. >>25410338The majority of these are propaganda works, or you claiming non-fascist writers like Nietzsche or Plato for your ends
>>25410385>Socialism (and particularly Marxism) produced a massive body of critical theory, literature, and art because it was rooted in a critique of material conditionsIt's actually because Marxism is jewish and it carries on the rabbinical tradition.Marxism is false socialism.
>>25410385>claiming non-fascist writers like Nietzsche or PlatoIt's widely understood that Nietzsche and Plato were protofascist. Why do you think they weren't?
>>25410385Why do people as yourself speak on fascism with such authority when you don't know the first thing about fascist theory?>muh worshipping a strongman Has never been an ideal of fascism and not sure where this idiotic idea came from.
>>25407572What is internal experience?
>>25407861Sigh..
>>25407867Where?
>>25408167It's about doing a PhD on Rupi Kaur.
>>25409928I will not, come what may. Cope, mleccha.
>>25410388It's widely understood that plato and aristotle were protochristian. Why do you claim they weren't?
>>25409235Psychic spies from China try to steal your mind's elation.
>>25410434They are proto-Christian. What does that have to do with fascism?
>>25410462That's exactly my question. What do proto-christian and proto-liberal and proto-communist philosophers have to do with fascism?
>>25410474>plato is proto-XI need to get off this retarded board. Its so over.
>>25410477You should get away from western culture too, just to be safe
>>25410474Popper and Russell argued Plato was the ground zero of fascism
>>25410484Obviously he wasn't considering that the western philosophical tradition existed for thousands of years before fascism or even the modern nation-state came to exist
Deleted my previous comment because it was unnecessarily hostile.To call Plato proto-fascist is a little silly. Plato was proto-everything.
Both fascism and communism came from the exactly same philosophical branch. It's retard to pretend they are not very similar...
>>25410610Both collectivist ideologies. The rank and file of the Iron Guard in Romania became good communists when the Soviets imposed their will.
>>25407694>implying Triumph of the Will a cinematic masterpiece
>>25410610Fascism comes from NietzscheCommunism comes from Christianity
>>25409874>>25409920>>25409928>>25410427The marxist who keeps spamming threads like this is a jeet and you retards keep answering instead of flushing him out.
>>25410755>Fascism comes from NietzscheYou mean Nietzsche's brother inlaw.
>>25410474You deliberately ignored Nietzsche. Was he a proto-Christian, proto-Liberal or proto-Communist too? Did fascism come out of an intellectual void with no literature? By your logic it must have, because fascim is anti-intellectual. But alas that is just circular reasoning. You can't claim there is no fascist literature, because fascism doesn't have an intellectual tradition, because there is no fascist literature.Nietzsche wasn't a fascist either, but he was important to the development to the movement through the appropriation of his anti-morality into the racial collectivist mindset. Fascism also inherited ideology from late 19th century socialists, eugenicists and racialists (the theory of the Aryan race came about in the same period of the late 19th century), Italian futurism, the Völkisch movement, etc. To feign ignorance that fascism and the NSDAP came about from an intellectual bubble gets you nowhere other than plain dismissal, which I suspect is your end motive.>deep sociological explorationThe main concern of 21st century Marxist literature nowadays seems to be deconstruction of gender. The class warfare types left by the 2000s. Just because there is a body of works on a subject it doesn't mean it's intelligent.
>>25407390Government repression. Also this >>25407433 is a trvke, there were people who were both fascists and socialists who wrote good literature but the governments themselves weren’t capable of sponsoring it.
>>25410365You're both illiterate and stupid. Heidegger was a National Socialist. Basically all fashionable 20th century leftist philosophy, including Foucault, were dishonest. attempts to politically neutralise his philosophical legacy and integrate it with Eurocommunism.
>>25407936Good post, especially the not speaking English part, interesting to think about>>25407390Fascism is weird. All of them had essentially retrospective intellectualism because they were primarily movements of vitality and of the masses, which aren't known to be pipe smoking philosophers. But Italian and Spanish fascism both had philosophical works, and mussolini was a literal writer who frequently expressed his thoughts.Notable would be the interpretive here. Socialism had the ability to propagate for several more decades and found a comfortable home even in western academia, unlike fascism. This allowed it to fester in academic journals and writings, making it seem more notable and legitimate with time as an academic web of knowledge is created. Socialism also has had much more speculation put into it academically, from economics to philosophy to even agriculture (unsuccessfully.). Even the failures of socialism make it appear more notable because it allows for more writings about what REAL socialism should be. Fascism has none of this nicities.
>>25407735You have a Marvel villain tier understanding of fascism. Fascism was the basis of futurism and the earliest avant garde movement was wholly fascist. It was obsessed with perfecting man and rooting out evil.
>>25410365London is odd, all of his quotes seem extremely right wing but he was supposedly a socialist.
sup mouldie
>>25412701>Fascism is weird.It's an interesting political phenomenon because it's political impact was enormous, but it's hard to say it even constitutes an intellectual theory. Definitely not enough of one to have, like, foundational texts or a body around it that can be taught in an academic setting like Marxism or liberalism can. There were intellectual influences on it, of course.>>25409080>Ironically, the reason conservative art sucks is largely because conservatism has bought into the progressive liberal understanding of what art is and can't help but resent and fail at itI read about Sanae Takaichi going on the Babymetal podcast before she won the biggest election for the Japanese right in their post-war history. I was, like, damn, Japanese conservatives are way better at engaging mainstream pop culture than American conservatives are. I think it might be the influence of the Evangelical Religious Right in the United States. Like all this stuff just looks evil to them, they won't engage with pop culture until its 30 years out of date. Or when they do try to make something contemporary, they are too reactive, like making some "anti-woke" knockoff of existing stuff. They have a hard time seeing how right-wing values might be carried through modern pop culture. There are values on the right such as righteous scorn for enemies, not being a thin-skinned pussy, whatever.
>>25408067Nah, the inability of western right-wingers to generate art is related to the west's artistic decline in general, not to the right wing in general. Look at Japan. Their right wing continues to generate lots of art.
>>25413059what art do western left wingers produce today
>>25413062
Leftist movements cannot create. They can only corrupt. And yes, the modern left is fascist
>>25413131Fascism has always been left wing. Nazis were literally socialists.
>>25413062No idea, I avoid it. I think you missed my point if you're asking me that.
>>25408067>Look at videogames also where they go around with a magnifying glass to find "woke" things>magnifying glasscan you fucking blame them when it's everywhere now?
every single pro-immigrant faggot needs to hand their home over to immigrantsi'm a 100% serious believer in this as a policy
>>25407390
>>25413090>Press L3+R3 to activate Musou Modebut idk, I think a true leftist would be disgusted at the $250 mil budget and parts of the movie were filmed in Moroccan-occupied Western Sahara.
>all that people on welfare are against communism Kek
>>25408823there are no good books thte past 10 years. it has nothing to do with this left vs right goycattle culture war
>>25413466As long as the immigrant is a pretty brown woman I get to fuck, this is fine with me
>>25413605The left having complete cultural capture for the last 50 years has everything to do with the decline of all art in that same time period
>>25413629i have the sneaking suspicion that retarded Muttmerican faggots like you have a much different and sensitive definition of what a "leftist" or "leftism" is. anything short of actual fascism or something is seemingly leftist, to you.
>>25413637Not an argument
>>25413658my argument was that i dont think that "the left" has had complete cultural capture the last 50 years. the onus is on you to explain how and why that supposedly is the case.
>>25413637You are giving Amerimutts too much credit. If it's not free market liberal capitalism, they automatically consider it "socialist" or "gommunism" (hence all the rednecks bleating "Hitler was a socialist")
>>25413724>Debate me broNah I'm good, I'm right and have no desire to convince you
>>25413724he's an amerimutt retard who thinks "black people in movies = le communism" like all the rest>>25413728true when it comes to economics but amerimutts mostly focus on the social/culture war stuff and they mangle that too
>>25413484>true leftist
>>25407936But have you considered that>Nazi bad>Man bad>Nazi man very bad
>>25413724>>25413728>>25413735>>25413484>no true scotsman>its not real communism guysAre we really doing this?
>>25413744>>25413738Excuse me for respecting accurate definitions. I disagree with the notion that the dominance of the right wing ideology of liberalism is a cultural victory for the left. If you want to cite social progressivism, bear in mind that a leftist perspective would center class, and the liberal social progressivism places primacy on identity and consumption, maintaining the existing power relations. These token gestures of crappy Hollywood movies having a black guy or gay guy or whatever else don't change the hierarchy or the economic system, and haven't led the American working class to define itself in class terms. In fact, it's had the opposite effect.
>>25413751>right wing ideology of liberalismThis bait was made for me. Unfortunately I then realized it's bait.
so we're still doing the "liberalism isn't leftism" gimmick are we
>>25413735yeah i used to think they were just fucking around, but there is a scary amount of actual retards out there who think shit like video games not having an anime panty shot is literally the soviet union or something. its really fucking strange
>>25413765nta, but you truly are fucking stupid its actually unreal. do ideas like the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, right to private property, and equality before the law sound like leftism to you or something? how are americans completely uneducated on the history of liberalism which is a fundamental cornerstone of the founding of the united states? what actually happened for the word "liberalism" to become conflated with socialism and/or communism?
>>25413822>>25413828lowercase leftoid meltyyou still haven't read Capital btw
reminder that to OP "fascism" == "disagrees with OP"
>>25410385Fascism doesn't need theory because it is already perfect.
>>25410755Umm... how do I give reddit gold on here?
>>25413765NTA either but it's not bait. You just don't know what liberalism is.
>>25413828calling liberalism right wing is anachronistic and suggests a poisoning of ideological reality on your part. liberalism is the foundationstone of modern discourse; it is the humanistic theory of liberalism that has allowed for it's associated modern political conventions, and NOT the other way around, as your idea of it suggests.
>>25413986i'm sure your personal animus of uncritical ideology constitutes knowledge. you deserve an award for your high quality contribution to the literature board of fourchanneldotorg
>>25413822>>25413828denounce vishnu
>>25414017>uncritical ideology>regurgitates propagandaAnd where did your understanding of liberalism come from anon? Did it come from Locke, did it come from Hume? Or perhaps you're an avid resder of Mill?
>>25414044I'm not your samefag anon. and what are you to say for what you have read, if all that you can manage is interpretation from your ideological belltower? Anybody who reduces the broader context of an informational body down from their own dogmatic framework has not, in fact, gained objective knowledge.
>>25414059Yeah I didn't think so.If you havent figured out that classical liberalism and the "liberalism" that exists in modern American discourse are two separate things then I don't know what's left for you.
>>25413925i am not a leftist. i am a liberal capitalist you fucking retard.>>25414034fuck vishnu and fuck india
>>25414013Quick retard test:Is Ron Paul a liberal?
>>25414094you are lying and extremely recognisable
>>25413053The problem is that the Evangelical right is reactionary, not conservative. They can't create anything of worth themselves, only worship at the altar of what real conservatives made before them, kind of like a cultural cargo cult.
>>25413765Actual liberalism is very right wing. If you do not believe your rights are sacred absolutes that should override the will of the people, power of the state etc you don't believe in liberty.
>>25413615
>>25413828>>25413986>>25414212You all need to learn the difference between right and left.
>>25414331My take is that the wings are in relation to capital. Liberalism is right wing because it's in support of capitalism and social democracy is right wing because it's welfare capitalism. I am serious when saying fascism is social democracy with a different coat of paint and therefore also capitalist/right wing.
>>25414352Communists really do just try to redefine everything in a desperate attempt at confusing the discourse. Pathetic.
>>25414367The left/right wing dichotomy is a meme in general which is why I usually avoid referring to it. Give me a good definition that makes sense.
>>25414352This is the left-communist view and it makes sense but at this point the idea of left/right-wing becomes practically useless and counterintuitive since it just categorizes e.g. Bernie and Nehru in the same camp as Trump and Hitler. Nobody really uses the terms right/left in an economic way either since it's widely understood they refer mainly to one's stance on browns, women and queers.
>>25414373The only definition that is eternal and actually maps neatly to any context is:>Left wing = hierarchy is bad and society should flatten it as much as possible>Right wing = hierarchy is natural and society should orient itself around itThe whole "liberalism isn't leftism" meme is an attempt by communists to completely own the label of leftism (despite the concept of a 'left wing' existing prior to communism) - feudalism is anti-capitalist, does that make it left wing?Also rejecting that the hyper-liberalism of the last 20 years is leftist in nature, they can also deny any responsibility for its natureFascism is right wing because while it economically leans into socialism (don't let anyone tell you otherwise), it still orients and defines itself by hierarchies
>>25414392>The only definition that is eternal and actually maps neatly to any context is:>>Left wing = hierarchy is bad and society should flatten it as much as possibleIf this were true leftists would be anti-hypergamy and pro-incel, yet are in fact staunch sexual capitalists
>>25414392That's wrong though, leftists support the creation of massive, oppressive hierarchies to destroy natural hierarchies.If you believe individuals and their rights should be subordinate to the collective you believe in hierarchy. The state is a self perpetuating monster that seeks to control everything in society. An individual has a chance to assert their rights against other individuals but no one person can assert their rights against the state without being brutally punished as an example to the other slaves.
>>25414392>feudalism is anti-capitalist, does that make it left wing?Marxist leftists would say it isn't because capitalism is historically progressive compared to feudalism, while libtard leftists would say it isn't because they don't view capitalism as relevant to the left-right divide, so this is a bad gotcha.
>>25414404"Incels" can be conveniently compartmentalised away as misogynists (therefore hierarchical) and deserving of their fate, this is also why "incel" is used increasingly as an ideological description than a literal oneBut yes, women's desires are inherently hierarchical... because hierarchies are in fact natural lol>>25414409This is goyim histrionics
>>25414352One of the founding principals of fascism is a rejection of the left/right dichotomy. It's called the third position for a reason.
>>25414382The 1918 German Revolution was a perfect example of why it makes sense to group them together. The Freikorps were SPD-backed and their faction included fascists (Der Stahlhelm). Their interests are fundamentally more compatible with each other than with communists.While it's true that most people in daily life use left/right to refer to culture wars this is an even more counterintuitive definition than the one I used when applied to times of crisis.>>25414392"Hierarchy bad" is a complete misunderstanding of communism. There's no moralism, it's just the natural endpoint once capitalism collapses from its own contradictions. In a similar vein, feudalism was a precursor and developed the conditions necessary for capitalism to come into existence. Feudalism is to capitalism what capitalism is to communism.
>>25414417All you are saying is that the communists that say "liberalism isn't leftism" fail at their own definitions, which is already what I said>>25414432>"Hierarchy bad" is a complete misunderstanding of communism.Yeah it's almost like I said communism doesn't define leftism, though also you are wrong>There's no moralismWhat is it about leftists that they can't help but lie
>>25414422Its true, if you want the government to 'flatten' society you support the creation of violent unnatural hierarchies that crush individuals for the 'common good'.
>itt: what happens when words lose all meaning
>>25414439>All you are saying is that the communists that say "liberalism isn't leftism" fail at their own definitions, which is already what I saidThe communists' definition of left/right is coherent, it's just that nobody but them sees it that way. They believe that e.g. German Greens or the US Democrats are right-wing, and this makes sense from the perspective of communists but sounds insane from the perspective of everyone else.A Marxist would never say mere opposition to capitalism makes one left-wing either. Feudalism is reactionary compared to capitalism in the Marxist worldview.
>>25407433there were so many great socialist films that came out of the USSR
>>25407835Italian fascism was different from German fascismIn fact, German fascism ruined fascism by attaching it to eugenics and racial supremacy
>>25414555Do Italian(-like) fascist movements even exist irl anymore?
>>25414538Soviet film was great but it was great in spite of the regime and would have been far better without the censorship
>>25414568I am not talking about Soviet non-socialist films but explicitly socialist ones like Onions Cuba
>>25414567Literally does, in ItalyPraising Mussolini in the open doesn't quite carry the same consequences there as praising Hitler in GermanyHis descendants openly defend him lol
>>25410775this isn't polwe like jeets here
>>25414581jeet hands typed this post. We hate your kind here.
>>25409942Orwell was a socialist, just not of a certain kindSartre was influenced by Marxist thoughtNeruda and Saramago were members of communist partiesJack London and Steinbeck are indisputably kino and were both socialistsUpton Sinclair changed the meatpacking industrySholokov won the Nobel Prize
>>25414596The only decent author here is Orwell who is barely competent but at least has good points to make which ironically completely undermine his arguments for socialism.
>>25414440Again you are being silly, whether that system *produces* hierarchies or not is irrelevant, and nor do leftists insist that no hierarchies would exist at all under their given systemThe underlying beliefs and moral framework are anti-hierarchical
>>25407390The same reason feminism has failed to produce any notable works of literature.
>>25414598>implying you've even read the others
>>25414596London was a racialist and eugenicist with protofascist themes in his work. Despite his self-id as a socialist he's usually seen as right-wing
ITT a bunch of morons talking about semantics and terminology as if words are immutable comstructs.
>>25414604Neruda and Saramago are the only authors I haven't read here given nobody has ever heard of them.
>>25414612>he's usually seen as right-winglmao no. /lit/ is maybe the only place I've heard this
>>25414618Explain how London is less than decent
>>25414625I only ever read The Call of the Wild so maybe he got better but it's a weak book for how famous it is.
>>25414600If you actively support creating artificial hierarchies you do not have an anti hierarchical moral framework.
>>25413738>true leftistyeah. Idk what to tell you dude, do you think the same people who rave about "TAXING LE HECKIN BILLIONAIRES" and limiting income are happy that $250 million was spent to film some movie about a White supremacist, colonialist, racist, misogynistic fairy tale from 3,000 years ago? Think about how many gender reassignment surgeries that money could've paid for. How many LGBTQIA2+ theatre shows could've been produced. How many lawyers could've been hired to defend illegal immigrants.I know sarcasm is hard to convey via text because I'm a retard but I wasn't serious.
>>25407694German directors went to Hollywood before the NatSocs took over, if anything it was the miserable state of the film industry in collapsing Weimar that killed german cinema. And Nazi Cinema was actually not too bad. Watch "Opfergang" and tell me anything better was produced in germany in the 50's and 60's. But then the real collapse of german cinema came in the 90's. Before that you had (in their prime) Wenders, Fassbinder, Kluge, Herzog, Schlöndorff, von Trotta among others.
>>25408165Hamsun was a cultural cuckold that didn't even write in his own native language.
>>25414628Oh wow, so you only read his one book mean't for children?
"fascism" isn't even a coherent ideology, nobody can agree on what it means. for practical purposes it's basically "masculine tyranny."tyrannical leaders don't need a written creed, because force is their primary tool. the question of great German writers should be a separate discussion.
>>25414809>meant for childrenIt being at a level that a child can read doesn't mean it was meant for them. If anything it's proof that London is a weak writer.
>>25414831Mussolini contradicted himself a bunch. Fascism is basically just 'reaction to current thing'
>>25415312>Mussolini contradicted himself a bunch.Such as?
>>25414831Its exercising the will to power (or "will to act", to differentiate from Nietzsche) through the state. Man is part of the state, and the lines blur to where they are one. Think about Hegel's idealism, history driven by the dialectic of ideas being sublimated over time, consciousness of beings and all that. We all know how Marx took that and applied it to workers and economic classes/production relations. Gentile took it and applied it to action itself, action preceding thought and ideas, and action, the present, what is directly in front of you being the only thing that mattered, subject/object were one, the individual is part of the state, nothing is above the state, everything is part of action, the state served as the natural method for the individual to exercise their will. He rejected the idea that there is a divide between the thinker and the external world. He viewed nature, space, and time not as independent physical entities, but as concepts and structures contained within the self-conscious mind, so his logic was if the subject (the individual) and the object (the collective, the external world) are actually one and the same through action, then the individual's private interests are an illusion. The only 'true' individual is the collective, the state. Hence nothing outside the state etc
>>25415780basically just taking hegel and bastardizing it to say "we can do whatever we want" and "if i dont see it right in front of me i cant understand it". fascists have object permanence of small children. not surprising really. marx is more coherent of a reinterpretation.and then thats not even getting into shitler
>>25415780>Man is part of the statethis is fundamentally flawed from the start.the individual is the antithesis of the state. for an individual to be free he has to own his own body and the products of his labor, but governments always confiscate part of what you own, their bureaucratic existence is essentially parasitic.you can have fantasies about being a fascist dictator, but only one man gets to occupy that position, and it ain't gonna be you.
>>25415794That's too simple. In practice philosophy and theory were secondary to the actual policy, but the same goes for Marxist-Leninist nations. It is a legitimate philosophy that's rooted in Hegelian dialectic, even if not one I agree with. Fascism has a clear set of roots and influences, Italian Fascism has specific philosophical and cultural origins that include syndicalism, Sorelism, futurism, etc. but indeed, authoritarian right wing governments in other nations adapted systems to their cultural context that are closely aligned or adjacent to fascism, but in technicality, distinct from the Italian form.As for Hitler, the Natsoc philosophy is more rooted in Prussianism, crude social darwinism, and Schmitt's "enemy/friend" philosophy than Hegel, along with some esoteric occult nonsense about muh aryan hypoborean super race injected in. Mussolini’s system was fundamentally focused on the State exercising power and action. The State as the primacy, the very act of action, not just a tool used for a more abstract ideal but the absolute, the end all. For Hitler, it was purely race, distinct and disembodied from the State. The Volk was the absolute, the driver, the State was just a tool to serve the race. If the State stopped serving the racial purity of the Aryan, it was irrelevant. Mussolini himself had a quote regarding race where he dismissed it as secondary, which illustrates this distinction well. The most fascinating thing is imo how Hegel has touched many of these frameworks serving as the core ideological foundation for Marxism, Fascism, and also ironically enough neoliberalism (Kojeve leads to Fukuyama), and how these schools are all used as means to justify the ends.
>>25415807Yeah, its too reductionist of a philosophy, and not one that is liberating in any sense, but its intent is to essentially rationalize state authoritarian rule. I'm just trying to explain what its underpinnings are.
>>25415807>the individual is the antithesis of the statethis was the dialectic that the fascists tried to resolve
