>let me spend half a page describing what suits everyone was wearing, in great detail>for the 100th time againWhat did this faggot mean by this? I know he tried to make the reader understand how important having luxury brand clothes and dressing nice was, but come on! I really don't have to know if certain character had a navy or an indigo tie.One of the rare cases where I think the movie did it better than the book. The movie showed all of this vanity without mentioning the specific brand again and again and again.
>>25408552dfw, You’re just displaying the sort of cynicism that lets readers be manipulated by bad writing. I think it’s a kind of black cynicism about today’s world that Ellis and certain others depend on for their readership. Look, if the contemporary condition is hopelessly shitty, insipid, materialistic, emotionally retarded, sadomasochistic and stupid, then I (or any writer) can get away with slapping together stories with characters who are stupid, vapid, emotionally retarded, which is easy, because these sorts of characters require no development. With descriptions that are simply lists of brand-name consumer products. Where stupid people say insipid stuff to each other.
This is literally how normie elites process reality. They spend MOST of their attention tracking status markers within their social group. If the status markers were giant vegetables, they really would spend all day processing vegetable-size differences.
>>25408552Think of all those postmodern and even modernist works that go look a literary reference every other line with 90% being look at how many things I know and allusions I can make.It's that kind of writing but replacing fancy elitist academia with elitist fashion and brands.
>>25408555Yes, and there are many different ways to make the reader acknowledge that. I understood it by the 3rd, or even the first time he started describing what EXACTLY everyone was wearing. What shoes, what kind of watch. What glasses, etc. No need to put it into the book for another 50 times, really.
>>25408555I observed this behaviour at university and almost died from cringe.
>>25408560Which has more:>brand names and fashion references in American Psycho>Irish culture references and stuff around Dublin in Ulysses >science and history trivia in Gravity's Rainbow
>>25408563You're in the mind of a character that is constantly obsessing over these things though, it doesn't make sense to skip it to spare the reader.
>>25408552>I know he tried to make the reader understand how important having luxury brand clothes and dressing nice was, but come on!That is not the point of them, nobody else in the book cares about clothes to the degree that Bateman does.
>>25408569>>25408571Patrick Bateman probably sometimes also thought to himself: "fuck, my tummy hurts, I have to take a big shit fast", but we don't read about it in the book. You don't have to include every one of his thoughts and in the exact same frequency as main character to be "accurate". The goal was to make the reader understand the posh lifestyle, and it could be achieved with a lot less, or in a lot of different ways. This is just bad writing.
>>25408574Disagree. If it was mentioned a few times in the beginning of the book and then no more it would read as Bateman having shifted his focus. I agree it was tedious but it was necessary to portray his obsession. The book would have been totally limp if he skipped out on it.
>>25408566NTA but this is why I hate academia. This people are not more intelligent than other people with other jobs. They also don't contribute to society any more than the average joe. They just have a way with words most people don't care about, and it often unnecessarily complicates the message because they want to sound elite and fancy. Like, instead of saying "red apple", they would write "the forbidden fruit of a crimson colouration". Now do that with every sentence, and you've got yourself scientific paper. I physically cringe when I read most scientific stuff, and unfortunately I have to because I'm finishing my masters degree. Your work is rarely valued by what you accomplish or discover, but by what obscure words you can find in the dictionary, and how elite do they sound. That makes spewing out large quantities or books/papers easy, because you barely wrote anything meaningful yet you're at 20 pages already.I could go on and on about this. Currently my brother does his PHD at a pretty "high status" university and it's only a tip of an iceberg. I will repeat it once again - People at uni are not any more intelligent than you. They just use big words to sound more intelligent.
>>25408563He probably didn’t repeat it enough if you still don’t get how essential material status is to the character and simply find it annoying.
>>25408579>how the whole world did sigh when eve and adam did sup on that cursed crimson thing
>>25408579academia is still useful and important so I wouldn't bag it. anyway, sucking up to people in positions of authority and pretending to appear upper class will instantly out you to those that actually are. a social climber will get much further in university by just wearing plain functional clothing and having a good work ethic/conscience.
>>25408576How did the movie achieve it then, without spending a whole hour describing bateman's tie? >>25408583I think you didn't understand me. I know how important it was to the character. I'm saying it's pretty obvious after the first chapter, and if the author wanted to keep emphasizing it, he should've chosen a different path to achieve it. Instead, he choose to endlessly hold onto the "Character X had ABC suit, with XYZ coloured stripes, AAA pants, BBB shoes from collection CCC, DDD briefcase made by famous EEE, and $5,000.00 FFF glasses".Was there really no other way to work it into the plot?
>>25408553Fpbp
>>25408553>emotionally retardedDoes DFW actually use the word retarded regularly? I thought his go to for stupid people was "mook."
>>25408555>elitesPatrick is not an "elite" lol.
>>25408552you dont understand how writing works.you need a fight scene of some shit?
>>25408579youre so lame.academics are all sorts. blow hards are blow hards and they are more likely in the c suite of the consultancy fucking your company over than in your uni.
>>25408598>I think you didn't understand me. I know how important it was to the character. I'm saying it's pretty obvious after the first chapter, and if the author wanted to keep emphasizing it, he should've chosen a different path to achieve it. Instead, he choose to endlessly hold onto the "Character X had ABC suit, with XYZ coloured stripes, AAA pants, BBB shoes from collection CCC, DDD briefcase made by famous EEE, and $5,000.00 FFF glasses".>>Was there really no other way to work it into the plot?What they're trying to tell you is that it was written that way for you to experience the neuroticism and downright disgusting waste of time that being that is being that sort of person. If it's annoying you, good. That's part of the fucking point. You're in the head a creature so unlike you that you're experiencing cognitive dissonance about it, job well fucking done.Alternatively quit being a little bitch and skip the passages that aren't important then.
>society is le bad Bravo Ellis. Absolute literature.
>>25408552The best part was the chapter long review of his favorite music
>>25408598The movie didn't. Tons of retards took the wrong message away and idealize Bateman despite everything it does to show how pathetic he is.
>>25408793I don’t think people idealize Bateman, they just think he looks cool. American Psycho is a genuinely funny movie but BEE’s books are vapid.
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>>25408804>they just think he looks coolThat's my point. The movie is too subtle so tons of people's main takeaway was they want to be like Bateman.
>>25408598>How did the movie achieve it then, without spending a whole hour describing bateman's tie?You keep coming back to this, but how is the answer not obvious?Movies are a different medium and use a different language to communicate with you. Take ties: we see him wear something like 20 different ties, all silk and expensive designer patterns, and all tied with a double or even triple Windsor knot. That's the movie equivalent of showing you how obsessed this loser is with ties.
>>25408598>I think you didn't understand me. I know how important it was to the character. I'm saying it's pretty obvious after the first chapter, and if the author wanted to keep emphasizing it, he should've chosen a different path to achieve it. Instead, he choose to endlessly hold onto the "Character X had ABC suit, with XYZ coloured stripes, AAA pants, BBB shoes from collection CCC, DDD briefcase made by famous EEE, and $5,000.00 FFF glasses".I actually thought it went from boring to funny as it went on. The first time you're fed these lines, you get it. But he feeds it to you over and over and over again to hammer home to you just how important all this trivial bullshit is to this character, which makes it absurd and thus funny. If all it said was "this guy really cares about superficial appearances" it wouldn't do a very good job of putting you in the character's mind. Heck, why not just read a synopsis of the book?
>>25408552It’s supposed to be satirical about upper class status chasing materialist yuppies and it went over a lot of people’s heads. The reason why his confession meant nothing is because of how shallow everybody was at that time so over analysis about wether it is real or not or other theories are pointless. /book
>>25408931what this guy said. in the film you quite literally see his apartment and in particular his enormous walk in wardrobe that contains like 50 super expensive designer suits. his obsession with materials is visually evident in the film by way of it simply being a different medium. i find it incredible that /lit/ has regressed so far such that people here can't tell why two distinct mediums (film and lit) can easily communicate the same idea in distinct manners
>>25408552I like that this thread exists because someone has been mentioning American Psycho so the resident board homo has decided this is what bait he will try this week
>>25408952Have you read some of the stuff modern /lit/ tries to put out? It reads worse than the second-gen asian american white boyfriend authors they cry about constantly.
>>25408948>/book>implyingThat stuff about satire and critiquing materialism is a kind of shell to the actual point of the book which is easy to miss because he doesn't jot it down in the novel.He's been interviewed about this and he's pretty open about just saying that his books are his mind poured out onto paper. Like he's not going to write an autobiography because that's already in his fiction.Somebody will call him and ask "So what do you think of Patrick Bateman?" And Ellis will say "American Psycho is my most autobiographical novel. That's who I was. I don't think I've ever identified with a character more and I don't think that I ever will"But people haven't heard this stuff so they put down the book thinking "Oh the authors normal and he's making a satire of a crazy person" but he's not. He's the crazy person.This is the terrible esoteric knowledge I'm burdened with because I listen to interviews. I hear people say "People who think Bateman's supposed to be relatable haven't read the book". Do I spill the beans and ruin the book for them? Will they still like it if it's icky and gross in an immediate sincere way and not an in a distant insincere way? That it is cringe and not a parody of cringe?
>>25408552I find this critique bizarre considering how there are multiple sections purely dedicated to reviewing contemporary music.Complaining about name brands when an entire chapter is dedicated to reviewing Whitney Houston is ridiculous.
>>25408552>this faggotthere is your answer op
>>25408787Genuinely an interesting part. Listened to a bunch of new stuff that day and gained newfound appreciation for 80s music
>>25408971>everything I disagree with is bait
>>25408598It must be satisfying to write a novel that filters people this hard. I fucking kneel Bret
>>25409048That's sad, if true. It's ironic that people then take the catcher in the rye as autobiographical, when it's full of clues that the narrator is retarded.
>>25409048I think people are conflating a character being relatable with condonement. Ellis himself has said he didn't like who he was at that point. I don't understand why that fact would ruin the book for anyone unless they're retarded.
>>25410322>the catcher in the rye as autobiographical, when it's full of clues that the narrator is retardedThe book starts with him openly telling you he's in an institution. It's not subtle about his instability and the whole book is about how the cruelty of the world made him that way. You lack empathy and basic intelligence if you think Stalinger was trying to say Holden was an idiot. There I took your shitty bait respond however you'd like.
>>25408552Ellis is not a great writer by any means, but if you take his word for it, apparently Bateman's clothing choices clash and he would've looked ridiculous people in his milieu, and Bateman is so out of it as a narrator that he gives contradictory info about what he's wearing (that or he's ridiculously wearing three different suits all on top of each other).
>>25408793>>25408931It's unironically just because he's played by a chad looking guy.Put a sub5 in that role and everyone would get the point
>>25408975Kek
>>25408552>One of the rare cases where I think the movie did it better than the book.Absolutely plebian taste, the movie cuts SO much from the book it hurts. You don't even understand the context of when Patrick says he's "rockin' and 'a rolling" at the end that he's quoting his brother, or that he's disgusted to hear himself say it since he hates his brother. Go back to >>>/tv/ since you clearly have no literary appreciation or reading skills.
>>25410516Sadly, you are correct.
>>25410516you're a homosexual.
The movie sucks ass. You lose the ridiculous juxtaposition of Batemans obsessions with clothing, music etc and the torture of women. The movie is pg tier compared to what he does to them in the book.
>>25410547the film comes off as a dark comedy centering around a shell of a person who hides behind a mask. As such, t's clear why 4channers identify with the film adaption and its uncanny preempting of the anonymous internet experience.I'll see myself out.
>>25409048Patrick Bateman isn't crazy. The whole point of the book is that he is on drugs, surrounded by enablers and enabling consumerist culture and inherently realizes it's wrong, though doesn't understand why, and so he has violent deranged fantasies that don't truly happen. Because he is not truly violent and deranged, but rather because he has been gradually driven crazy by his environment (and drugs.) He is a sad, lonely, narcissistic, kind of autistic guy with more money than sense. We are on a website where this exact same phenomenon happens to people. Hell, we are on a wider internet where this exact same thing happens to people. American Psycho is more valuable today than it probably ever was because we're all so steeped in shallow "luxury", we have everything at our fingertips, and yet true personal connection is difficult (arguably impossible) to obtain on this increasingly-prevalent virtual network that dictates our lives. It's like people read this book where one passage can be summarized as>I took 4 more valium and drank 8 cocktails before meeting up with my girlfriend from college. I was a weird tweaker and we had nothing in common, BUT SHE FELL IN LOVE WITH ME ANYWAY AND I MURDERED HER, I CUT HER HEAD OFF BROand don't surmise that, perhaps, this guy is just doing that thing that happens to someone on 4chan when they try to go outside, make a genuine connection with someone, don't accomplish that and retreat to their computer to say the worst shit possible about bitches and whores. This book's prose is insanely accessible and yet people still fail to parse what it's doing.
>>25408552it's stylistic, idiot
>>25410618>this guy is just doing that thing that happens to someone on 4chan when they try to go outside, make a genuine connection with someone, don't accomplish that and retreat to their computer to say the worst shit possible about bitches and whores.a beheading fantasy is something you could imagine even a normie having in a spell of rage. but there is nothing relatable about “venting with the online bros” about forcing a rat up a girl’s vagina with a tube. you would be rightly concerned by someone heehee pretending that on the internet, so why should we believe Bateman is not actually doing these things or not actually batshit insane
>>25410664>there is nothing relatable about “venting with the online bros” about forcing a rat up a girl’s vagina with a tube.Yes there is. There's so many stories about shit like>Dad is such a normal guy, I can't figure out how when I looked into his browser history he was looking at tranny porn!Get over yourself. Human beings get retarded when it comes to sexual fantasy. It makes complete sense this guy who has everything was veering into Eyes Wide Shut style "interests" that are certainly deranged but not indicative of him being genuinely psychotic. The people who read into this book that way have never observed, studied or gotten familiar with genuine lunatics.>why should we believe Bateman is not actually doing these things or not actually batshit insaneWell he shoots a pistol at a police car which explodes and kills 3 cops. This kind of exists at the end of the book so even super mutant-level dummies like you might finally get what the narration was doing all this time but I suppose not.
>>25410672>tranny fetish = forcing rat up vagina torture fetishthis is a concerning equivalency, and shows why you’re so defensive about your take
>>25408552none of you in this thread understand what this was really about. ellis was noting the degradation of society that was taking place socially as an undercurrent of the peak of human achievement. the devices, fashion, music, everything he saw as the very best it would ever be was meticulously catalogued in this novel while also revealing that it could not fundamentally be sustained by a people so shallow and depraved. historians will look back on this novel as an encyclopedia of a period so rich in ideas and execution worth marveling over.
>>25408552>I know he tried to make the reader understand how important having luxury brand clothes and dressing nice wasBecause it's obsessed with surface level information and is beating you over the head with it and you still didn't get it.
>>25408552He's going insane, plus it's funny
>>25410464>the whole book is about how the cruelty of the world made him that way.No it isn't. It's all about how he could have anything he wanted. He was born to super wealthy, fully supportive parents. He is given new chances again and again but he squanders it all. I'm pretty sure Salinger meant is as a pro euthanasia book.
>>25410689>enter board about reading>dont read any posts but reply to em anyway
>>25408579>NTA but this is why I hate academia. This people are not more intelligent than other people with other jobsThis is the same at the corporate level
>>25410831not gonna lie guys, I made this thread yesterday but I stopped caring about it a few hours later. No clue how someone ended up with words "tranny fetish" when discussing american psycho. I'm not reading all those posts. I just don't care anymore.
>>25410838Very authentically Patrick Bateman, he too would not actually read anything provided to him if it wasn't a restaurant menu.
>>25410837Oh yeah. This was a big eye opener for me. People's intelligence is mostly similar no matter what field you go into. You will always find someone dumber than you on a higher position, and you will always find some intelligent ones. Because most often everything is learnable, every skill, every process, so it comes down to work ethic, determination and conscientiousness
>>25408574The point is to repeat it until you're sick of it.
>>25411168Cool, now I don't like his book, I won't recommend it to anyone and I will never read anything from this author ever again. Did he achieve what he wanted?
>>25411180You read it because it's a very popular book so I would say he did yes.
>>25408574>Patrick Bateman probably sometimes also thought to himself: "fuck, my tummy hurts, I have to take a big shit fast", but we don't read about it in the bookdoesn't he talk about his stomach issues several times?
>>25408560i dont think imma get through master and margherita because of this i dont have the references
>>25410479His descriptions are unhinged and imply that he is an unreliable narrator. Its not only his clothes that would look ridiculous. The food they eat is also a culinary nightmare, and Bateman's workout routine is baffling. The whole point is that he is talking out of his ass and comes off as a shallow know-it-all who rambles for hours about stuff he has no clue about. The book makes its point that way. Its actually smart, since any normal person would zone out if they had to listen to Bateman's monologues, so the reader just skims his "insightful" fashion descriptions. It doesn't make the book more enjoyable but if you are not a midwit, you could clearly see what Ellis was trying to do.
>>25410838aw man you really are one of those guys who self-inserts as movie Batemen, huh? that sucks
>>25411245How did you even conclude that? Jesus, no. I just became completely uninterested in my own thread. I came back to 30+ new replies and some discussion about tranny fetish, I'm not reading that sewage. I got opinions of other people in the first hour, took them into consideration, and left.
>>25411270The whole idea behind your thread was stupid to begin with,so don't be so pushy, clown.
>>25411270Well you're not a very good reader, you apparently didn't even get the film, and you come back and avatarpost as himWhat else can I think?
>>25408579>Like, instead of saying "red apple", they would write "the forbidden fruit of a crimson colouration". Now do that with every sentence, and you've got yourself scientific paperAbsolutely false. >unfortunately I have to because I'm finishing my masters degree.Are you going to clown college?
>>25408574Nta, but its literally how bateman himself would tell his story to you if you were interviewing him, and if he felt comfortable enough to be completely honest with you
>>25408793that's because in this ass-backwards amoral world Batemans pathetic existence means something to them since he has money, status and looks, nobody gives a fuck that he's a souless flesh golem that wants to die but is too afraid to kill himself
>>25411391>Absolutely false.Have you read any scientific papers? Pretty sure redd*t even has whole subreddits dedicated to obscuring facts with obtuse nonsense. "Poked it with a stick" becomes "exposed it to external stimuli" because it sounds more science-y even though it communicates almost nothing compared to the mundane "poked it with a stick". If someone has to call you up and ask you what you meant with what you wrote, you're terrible at writing. On the other hand, if you don't want people to understand what you're doing, because what you're doing is fucking retarded, then you definitely don't want to communicate clearly. Or answer direct questions about what all your euphemisms actually mean.
>>25410525>that he's quoting his brother, or that he's disgusted to hear himself say it since he hates his brother. There's also a Patrick chapter in The Rules of Attraction when he sends his brother money so he can pay off his dealer. Neat little touch.
>>25411489Didn't know that! I'll definitely check out Rules of Attraction when I finish my current queue of books, American Psycho is the only book by Ellis, and this thread has inspired me to try some of his wider works.
>>25412041>only book by Ellis*that I've read.
I like how we essentially just writes the same book over and over, but one of them has violence in it.
his podcast is really good
rules of attraction is a better read imo
