His meter isn’t clean at all, turn to any page and you constantly have to watch how you say it in order to make it “fit” the meter. What makes his meter considered good?
>>25421198Well, given that he's writing very long articulate sentences that conform to meter, it's fair to say he's operating on a high technical level. To my ear his lines are sonorous and confident. If I were to gripe I'd say he's a bit long-winded. I don't agree with his referring to his own writing of the poem within the poem. He's defending his stylistic choice but anyone who cares to read far enough to hear him is already on his side.
Do syllable numbers in a word change based on the period accent?
>>25421436I don’t think they’re that different in Milton’s time from today other than the final -ed in verbs being pronounced more often. In middle english they were different because the final -e was (almost) always pronounced.I assume that in the first line the extra syllable in “disobedience” is just glided away by turning the i into a y (disobedyence)
>>25421198Everything here is fine, I don't know what the issue is.
>>25421198>you constantly have to watch how you say it in order to make it “fit” the meterWhat the fuck are you talking about?
oi m8, jew fink its funny being disobejent against ve 'Enly Muse yeah?
>>25421198The metre would make a lot more sense to you if you read the poem aloud in Milton's 17th-century British acccent. It's sort of like how Shakespeare's sonnets sound much better in the original Elizabethan-era accent.
>>25421739Nigga, ever heard of prosody?
>>25421198>you constantly have to watch how you say it in order to make it “fit” the meterthat's why his metre is good. alexander pope is the same. skillful metrical poetry is all about varying rhythm and pace within the constraints of the metre. try reading this couplet from pope's iliad with a mechanical ba-dum ba-dum iambic pentameter rhythm:>He ceased; his army's loud applauses rise,>And the long shout runs echoing through the skies.it works for the first line but not the second. but that's what makes the second line so good, its variation of the rhythm. it feels like an expressive voice with its own rises and falls, speeds and slownesses.
>>25422105I think alot of people just don't know that punctuation was used as a tool for when to pause and how long while reading a text out loud so they can't intuit the pacing of poetry.
>>25422112People are just retarded. Hardly anybody these days has any measure of prosody in his speech.
important to note that, traditionally, iambic pentameter allows a line to be either> - X - X - X - X - Xor> X - - X - X - X - Xwhere X *may* be stressed, but doesn't have to be. so there's lots of room for flexibility even before you start bending the rules.
>>25422112This is definitely trueI myself only realised after years to read the punctuation as well as the words and of course it makes everything make way more sense But then again when does anybody get taught how to read poetry properly
>>25422105hmm interesting point
>>25422079i dpon't think people th-front word-initially
>>25422121It's insane rhetoric isn't formally taught and instead people need to go to toastmasters and shit.
>>25422086>prosody>you have to constantly watch what you sayNigger, you don't know what prosody is
I think youre focusing on the wrong things, but next time get a copy with more historic accuracy
>>25422349Heres one from one of the first publications when he was still alive
>>25422346>>25421739I'm talking about how you have to constantly reduce certain syllables while emphasizing others that you wouldn't do if you just read it naturally. For example>line 1 you have to glide away extra syllable in disobedience, while emphasizing the "and">line 4you have to emphasize "till" instead of "one" >line 5you have to emphasize the "and" again>line 6it starts with a spondee, which I'm not sure is a standard substitution >line 8 you would have to emphasize "who" and reduce "first", which is so unnatural I assume it's a substitution >line 9 have to heavily reduce the extra syllable in heavens>line 12you have to emphasize the third syllable in "oracle" None of these individually are unusual or bad, it's just constant throughout the poem
>>25422367>>25422349who cares?
>>25422387>you have to glide away extra syllable in disobedienceNo, you don't. It's called elision. It's not "forcing" a pronunciation any more than saying "fire" as one syllable.>while emphasizing the "and"No, you don't have to stress this word. Iambic pentameter doesn't require stresses on even syllables, it requires no stresses on odd syllables (save for trochaic inversions).>you have to emphasize "till" instead of "one"No, you're stressing the "great" instead of "one", and what's wrong with that?>you have to emphasize the "and" againAgain, not all five even syllables need to be stressed.>it starts with a spondee, which I'm not sure is a standard substitutionNo, it starts with a trochee. I don't know why you're stressing both "Sing" and "Heaven", but you're not supposed to.>you would have to emphasize "who" and reduce "first", which is so unnatural I assume it's a substitutionYou're don't have to stress either. The emphasis is not "taught">have to heavily reduce the extra syllable in heavensNo, "heav'ns" can be one or two syllables, just like "fire" and "poem".>you have to emphasize the third syllable in "oracle"Again, not all the even syllables need to be stressed.>None of these individually are unusual or bad, it's just constant throughout the poemIs this your first time reading pre-Eliot poetry? All the ancients, Shakespeare, Wordsworth, Pope, &c. did "constantly reduce certain syllables" because that was the unspoken rule. Iambic pentameter is about no stresses on odd syllables (except for trochaic inversions), not about needing stresses on even syllables.Read this book to learn about how it's done.
>>25422086>>25422346I always forget these terms aside from the basic metaphor, simile, stanza, etc. Just say what the words are doing lol.
>>25422433>The emphasis is not "taught"*The emphasis is on "taught"
>>25422433>No, you don't. It's called elision. It's not "forcing"idk why "forcing" is in quotes given that I never used that word, I'm simply saying you have to be conscious of it>you're stressing the "great" instead of "one",huh? great is already in a stressed position. one is in an unstressed position by your own definition. so you're not stressing great "instead" of one. >it starts with a trocheeuh... what? The first syllable in "heaven" is stressed relative to "en." it's very unnatural not to stress "heav">Iambic pentameter is about no stresses on odd syllables (except for trochaic inversions),according to who? your own book opens by defining it in terms of stresses on even syllables, lol.
>>25422471>great is already in a stressed position. one is in an unstressed position by your own definition. so you're not stressing great "instead" of one.nevermind, I just contradicted my own usage, I understand what you meant there
>>25422471>great is already in a stressed position. one is in an unstressed position by your own definition. so you're not stressing great "instead" of one.Yeah, but they're in the same iambic foot, so if there were a trochaic inversion, it would move the stress from "great" to "one".>The first syllable in "heaven" is stressed relative to "en."No, there isn't even an "en", because the syllable is elided. It's "heav'n" as one syllable.>it's very unnatural not to stress "heav"It's pefectly natural when it's following a much stronger stress, in this case "sing".>according to who? your own book opens by defining it in terms of stresses on even syllables, lol.Read the whole book, dumbass.
>>25422489>It's "heav'n" as one syllableI don't see any analysis where this would be considered one syllable, getting rid of the vowel does not work because syllabic n exists and in phonetic transcription the word would be /hɛvn̩/ with the mark under the n to indicate that it is syllabic. >Read the whole bookthe point is that you acted like this analysis is the only one, which is obvious and accepted by everyone, when it isn't.
it seems to me he's distinguishing blank verse from accentual verse and saying blank verse simply allows missing stresses. I guess you can define blank verse as "unstressed odd syllables" instead of analyzing them as having weak feet. But that still isn't a feature of "Iambic Pentameter" itself.
>>25422502>I don't see any analysis where this would be considered one syllable>syllabic n exists and in phonetic transcription the word would be /hɛvn̩/A "syllabic" n doesn't count as a syllable in Milton's prosody.>the point is that you acted like this analysis is the only one, which is obvious and accepted by everyone, when it isn't.When did I act like that? I never said it was the only analysis, or everyone knew it.
>>25422508>But that still isn't a feature of "Iambic Pentameter" itself.No shit, because "Iambic Pentameter" is the floor, not the ceiling.
>>25422512whatever; thanks for posting the book. I see I made the mistake of treating it like accentual verse>>25422518you said >Iambic pentameter is about no stresses on odd syllablesthis seemed like a strange claim to me
>>25422521>you said>Iambic pentameter is about no stresses on odd syllables>this seemed like a strange claim to meThat's because if I were telling a robot how to write in blank verse, that's the instruction I would give.
>>25421198i think you're approaching metre all wrong.listen to someone trained in the tradition read the poem aloud:https://archive.org/details/lp_paradise-lost-book-i_john-milton/disc1/01.01.+Lines+1+-+124.mp3
>>25422648>siniai
>>25421269>I don't agree with his referring to his own writing of the poem within the poem.Isn’t it only in this opening of the poem that he does this, and also in line with bardic/epic tradition?Like the Iliad starting with, “Sing, goddess, the wrath of Peleus’ son Achilles…”; and the Oddysey similarly has, “Tell me, Muse [of Odysseus and his story…]”. The opening of Virgil’s Aeneid also going, “Of arms and the man [Aeneas] I sing…”.Seems like an interesting convention of epics Milton’s implying, harmonizing the Ancient Greek bardic and epic tradition (also filtered into some of Roman literature such as Virgil) with Christianity; the true Muse equated with God, or the Holy Spirit specifically it seems.
>>25421269>his own writing of the poem He didn't "write" Paradise Lost, he was fucking blind and composed it all in his head.
I thought all great works basically don’t use basic iambic pentameter or stuff like that, but a modified version.
>>25422387>you have to glide away extra syllable in disobedienceThis was just the standard pronunciation of the word in Early Modern English. In Robert Robinson’s phonetic writings from the time ‘obedient’ is rendered ‘ōbēdyent’.>have to heavily reduce the extra syllable in heavensSame thing again, the usual pronunciation at the time was just one syllable. You just need to actually learn how Early Modern English was pronounced.
