Fuck all happened to Menelaus.

>>25423465
Anyone with some deeper knowledge of the Homeric epics?
I'm watching some animated videos on the Odyssey, made well before Nolan's movie, and in it, they are essentially referencing similar themes to Nolan's: that Odysseus was guilty at the slaughter in Troy and that he was even beginning to have Atheistic thoughts: "if the gods allowed this slaughter they either do not exist or do not care and should not be worshiped."

This was not in the text of the Odyssey. So I'm wondering what later period this inference comes from? The Aeneid? Something from Aristotle? Later centuries?

Clearly the idea that Nolan presented was not a brand new one and scholars and ancients had already been thinking about this "what if Odysseus felt guilty" thing a long time ago.

Even the ancient greeks (who came around 1000 years after the Late Bronze Age of the Odyssey, and hundreds of years after Homer), already had their own interpretations and inferences of the poem, many being very sympathetic to the Trojans and less so towards the conniving Odysseus.

>>25423498
he got cucked

>>25423883
Not after the horse

>>25423465
>>25423880
>he was even beginning to have Atheistic thoughts: "if the gods allowed this slaughter they either do not exist or do not care and should not be worshiped."
That seems like a sentiment that would've arisen during the early days of the philosophers. Socrates was put to death for spreading atheism, of course.

>>25423880
It's absurd to ascribe atheistic thoughts to Odysseus when constantly engages with deities and mythical creatures, he even fucks a godess. Why am I... why am I even responding to these retards. What am I doing here. And then asking if this notion could have emerged in antiquity.

>>25423880
There is absolutely nothing in either poem to suggest that Odysseus or anyone else felt guilty about the Trojan horse. Quote the opposite, it was a point of pride. How much are you paid?

>>25423465
>People say nobody in antiquity believed there was anything immoral about the Trojan horse (which was a literal war crime) and yet literally everyone who participated suffered some sort of horrible fate
The Trojan Horse is a stupid copout ending and nobody in the Ancient world took it seriously, it's deus ex machina. Ajax, Agamemnon, etc are killed because they destroyed Troy's temples and killed Priam and his family when they tried to invoke the protection of the gods. It's not a moral judgement as you have in Christianity, they are killed or tormented in their returns because they broke the gods' rules so the gods kill them.

>>25423465
I can agree with this - it was always very clear that Poseidon's (and Zeus') wrath against Odysseus was at least partially inspired by him messing with horses and using a horse as the sneaky final blow, not just the wounding of Polyphemus. There's one consistent thread in Greek Mythos, it's tainting and beguiling a sacrifice is eventually punished by the gods.

>>25423465
>People say nobody in antiquity believed there was anything immoral about the Trojan horse
Well those people have never read Vergilius

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We had this thread last week
book 8

>>25423465
It was just a bit of tomfoolery.

>>25424177
I always got more "ptsd" vibes from that, not guilt at having it done, but strange relief he's alive, distance from a life of who he feels like he was and doesn't know if he any longer is, and memories of people which seem strange to him and are hard to bear.

>>25424177
This has literally nothing to do with the trojan horse

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>>25424187
directly before odysseus starts crying
stop being retarded just to hate nolan
you dont need a reason to hate nolan's adaptation, but this isnt a good one
better is the removal of the phaeacians, which is what makes odysseus an unreliable narrator. thats one of the most compelling ideas in the odyssey, and its not present at all; we dont get a chance to question whether odysseus is trustworthy or not

>>25424191
Again, him weeping has literally nothing to do with *guilt or shame* over the trojan horse. He shortly after openly recounts his losses along the journey, none of which have to do with muh guilt over the trojans. That you're even trying to push this narrative is ridiculous

>>25423465
> yet literally everyone who participated suffered some sort of horrible fate
The achaeans angered athena because ajax the lesser raped cassandra

>>25423465
False surrenders being a war crime is woke nonsense.

>>25423465
it's hogwash revisionism by post-christkek pseudo christkeks. Odysseus doesn't do anything without Athena's wisdom, he's one of the few characters who doesn't curse the gods for some bad shit happening to him either. He's no more to blame than a tidal wave showing up to wreck your shit and he certainly has no "PTSD' or bad conscience about throwing hector's baby off the ramparts or deceiving ajax to get achilles' armor. Dumb American mindfucked perspective trying to reduce everything to mental illness

> People say nobody in antiquity believed there was anything immoral about the Trojan horse

Both the Trojan Women, by Euripides, and the Aeneid, by Virgil, depict it in an EXTREMELY negative light

>>25425196
Euripedes was anti-greek like plato and Virgil obviously hated the greeks for what they did to his supposed ancestors. They have different reasons.

>>25423465
You're acting like a lettered person for engaging in inane arguments, catalysed by a Hollywood film's buzz, over topics no one really cares about. Meanwhile, Herodotus explicates on the ethnic origins of the Spartans and Athenians within the first 50 pages, as a mere aside, and you probably think that's a very complicated question.

So after the Trojan war:
>Athena and Zeus and Hermes are the only ones left on Olympus? Hera is punished; Artemis, Apollo, and Aphrodite are angry; Poseidon is in Ethiopia; Ares is angry.
>Zeus and Athena jointly punish the Greeks early in their journey home
>The gods are slowly removing themselves from the lives of men, retreating to the clouds to only have influence from a distance, rather than coming down to directly meddle or have sex with mortals

Is this right?

>>25425189
>he's one of the few characters who doesn't curse the gods for some bad shit happening to him either.
He doesn't curse the gods, but you can definitely see his hubris. Sacking the Ciccones is one of those -- definitely seems greedy and unnecessary.

Also, when Odysseus finally lands on Ithaca, the first thing he does when he wakes is that his greedy self believes the Phaecians robbed him of all of the gifts he took from them. Then, when Athena finally appears to him on the shore, he all-but-curses her when he ridiculously asks: "where have you been this whole time while I was suffering?" Just wonderful hubris.

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So you're telling me all Homeric writings about Troy were just the oldest libtard white guilt communist whining woke slop in existence?
Fuck no wonder they had faggots and niggers in those armies. Literal woke retarded MCU slop for normgroids just like cape shit today.

At last I see, everyone has the ability to hate new shit, but do you have the courage to hate the classics?

>>25423498
Read Orestes by Euripides

>>25423465
>the Trojan horse (which was a literal war crime)
wtf are you talking about. It just was a ruse de guerre.

>>25425261
now HERE is a good fucking take
>homer has always been libtard bullshit sobstory
>explains the pedo gay shit
doesnt explain why rome, europe, and the brits ended up wanting to be greek though...

>>25423465
>which was a literal war crime
do you want to win or be a sore loser?

>>25424191
...he's listening to a song about his exploits, his VICTORY, from some years prior, while still not having made it home and having lost his men. Do you not get that? That's why he subsequently tells the story of how he and his men have wandered unsuccessfully to make it back to Ithaca while scores of his men never get to make it back at all.

>>25423880
>>25423910
Sing the poem, retards.

>>25424173
Woke fan fiction.