I’ve been reading about Orientalism recently and finished Gai Eaton’s Islam and the Destiny of Man. I really enjoyed his defense of the religious life and his ability to explain concepts like Tawhid to a Westerner who knows nothing about Islam. Are there any similar books you can recommend for beginners looking to steep themselves in this tradition without getting lost? I’ve heard Henry Corbin being thrown around but I think he would filter me at this stage.
(PBUH)
>>25434873I saw your twitter post.
"The Vision of Islam" by Chittick/Muratta is handy introductory text on Islam but presented in a way that conveys some of the flavor of its mystical/intellectual core. Seyyed Hossein Nasr is excellent for similar reasons. He writes in a way that is valid from both traditional Islamic and modern academic modes. "A Sufi Saint of the Twentieth Century" is half biography and half exploration of Islamic mysticism for the non-Muslim reader. Be forewarned that you may only read very little of this kind of material before exhausting reading as an approach to understanding the subject. You will very quickly arrive at the point where prayer, religion and specifically following a teacher become necessary for further understanding. Many delude themselves at this juncture and continue diving into Sufism with book after book after book,sufficing themselves with a merely private and intellectual comprehension that only reflects the state they are currently stuck in. Or worse, they delude themselves by feigning knowledge of things they do not understand in their hearts, but can vomit out in pithy words stolen from, say, Ibn Arabi. To ascend from the state you are in will require the guidance of (and obedience towards) a teacher-- a shaykh. They are not always easy to find, for one is not always ready to find them. The wisest Muslims you can find will suffice in the meanwhile.
its all just ficino bro
>>25434873islam is inherently anti-intelletucal and reading any of this woo-woo bullshit is waste of time
>>25435374>>25435333This is not a hyperbole, it is a precise description: You do not have the slightest clue about what you have written. This is not for you, be silent or go elsewhere.
Islam, just like buddhism, is a religion which was built on an illegitimate figure but which fortunately was able to encompass higher spiritual and civilizational elements from both the cultural background of the respective illegitimate figures and outside cultures.If you want traditional religions with anything that islam has to offer plus a legitimate foundation, then go for christianity and hinduism since islam and buddhism are the heresies of these two.
>>25434873Was gonna say try Ibn Arabi's Meccan revelations but i struggled with the seals book of his so i would say try reading the seals of wisdom first, you need to be in a good state of mind so give it a shot when you feel mentally ready
>>25435757>Islam is a heresy of Christianity for saying God is Perfectly One>because it's patently obvious God decided to have human child with a human woman by impregnating her with the spirit and this very same child is also exactly himself (but not exactly) and god is thus coeternal and also "born", and the purpose of this was to make himself (but not exactly) suffer and die gruesomely under Roman and Jewish jurists in order to provide salvation to all human beings, except for those who deny that he is him (but not exactly) because, presumably, reasons.stones and glass house anon
>>25435916That's catholicism not Christianity, the romans fused (basterdized) christianity with old egyptian pagan stuff they had in order to supplement their reign, that's where the son of god thing comes from, look into the myth of Horus if you wanna dive into it in detail, there was a Scottish book i forgot the name that explained this
>>25435980>the concept of a son of god comes exclusively from this one sourcewhy do people do this?
>>25436031An unfounded and overweening confidence in their own opinions
>>25436031>Pretending not to understand the pointwhy do people do this
>>25435980Found it, it's The Golden Bough by James frazier
>>25434873intellectually, islam is the response to the oozing whaargarbl that orthobros like excommunicating each other about
>>25434873currently, islam appears as a solution to the western factionalism of puritanism atheism papism
Why is esoteric Islam so popular with non-Muslims? Why not Orphism or mystic Christianity?
>>25436346because humans are innately inclined to recognizing the truth of God's Oneness and this truth is at the heart of Islam
>>25436346Looks obscure and underground from a western pov. They're hipsters.
I feel like people just attach esoteric to everything now, like it's the last bastion of the pseud.
>>25436351Yeah bro I pray 5 times a day, quit porn and drugs/alcohol and fast Ramadan to be hip and cool. Plus it gets me all the attention from covered Muslim women who have no interest at all in being alone in a room with any man outside of their immediate family. It's also pretty awesome giving my extended family anxiety by saying "the Prophet" at Thanksgiving dinner. Whatever, just a phase I'm sure.
>>25436494>Whatever, just a phase I'm sureIndeed. You're like a teenager saying 'hail Satan' instead of 'happy thanksgiving!'
>>25434873If you mean tawheed as in Gods unique right of being worshipped then the books of ibn Abdul Wahaab are considered great for new and advanced students. Aqeedah is key because the soundness of your faith depends on it. To die believing Allah is everywhere like ibn Arabi or that members of the ahl albayt have divine attributes is as bad or worse than dying upon christianity or judaism. If it was sufficient to be a gooddoer by the people they wouldnt all have been cursed.
>>25436545Meant dogooder. As in someone who sincerily tries to find out about Allah and follow the prophetic way but fails to do much good is higher in rank than the opposite.
>>25436494>western convert to islamAbsolutely disgusting
>>25436603I don't know who you are.
>>25434873Try the Conference of the Birds. It's very good and enjoyable.Pic related is great too.I absolutely agree with him that I, as a Catholic, have more in common with a perrenialist Muslim (or Hindu, or Confucian) than a secularite /modernite on what really matters. Rumi is awesome too, although obviously not as straightforward. I keep a book of his poems by my bedside.
>>25436623for men, converting to Islam is the equivalent of getting pregnant by a coon and birthing brass ankles.
>>25436603I am one and not him, Islams problem is not "Islam", but mass immigration that western leaders love. The values of it were similar to the west for Thousands of years, if not more lax than Christianity at times>>25436494As a revert who is actually Muslim this post seems like a LARP or someone who needs to get offline and work on their Deen >>25436636Your right in the sense that Da'wah today is non existent and even detrimental to Islam and that mass immigration is the problem not Islam, mass immigration causes fitna.>>25436628>Rumi is awesome tooRumi was a mufti and Faqih, he was not some gay fag that middle school teachers could quote, He was an expert on Shari'a
>>25435398hasnt read any ficino
>>25436664" Narrated Abu Dhar:That he heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, "If somebody accuses another of Fusuq (by calling him 'Fasiq' i.e. a wicked person) or accuses him of Kufr, such an accusation will revert to him (i.e. the accuser) if his companion (the accused) is innocent." Sahih Bukhari 6045Do not takfir another Muslim unless you are certain he is a kafr and he is publicly misleading others. Just because you encountered me on the internet does not mean I am not a real person.
>>25436679I didn't call him a Fusuq, I just could tell by his post when he talked about getting attention from Muslim women and the fact he said its a phase. His whole post is misleading
>>25436687It's my post. It's not misleading it's just heavily sarcastic. I am sorry if this confused you, my intent was to refute the outrageous accusation (which you also made) that everyone who claims to be a convert to Islam is somehow being a "hipster" or LARPer, that it is not characterized by sincerity and therefore may be handily dismissed. This is ridiculous to anyone who has been through the difficulty of adapting their actions to the Shariah while living an outwardly western life. It's relatively demanding and it's unclear why anyone would take on such practices outside of sincere conviction since they offer no immediate worldly advantages and on the contrary require sacrifice. I am on your side please be on mine, we have enough trouble as it is from the non-Muslims.
>>25436664>>25436679>>25436679>Deen>Da'wah>fitna>mufti>Faqih>Shari'a>takfir>kafr>Fusuqspeak english you araboosthis is truly embarrassing; many cultures underwent an Arabisation they did not want, and here you are, talking like a sandnigger
>>25436696>speak english you araboosMost Muslims are not Arabs>this is truly embarrassing; many cultures underwent an Arabisation they did not want, and here you are, talking like a sandniggersome did, some didn't. Just like with Christianity. But the problem is not Islam, it's that the west imports muslims that would have been beheaded in their old countries under Shari'a. Most people importing the muslims that should be in prison or killed are Christian Charities lmao. The local Catholic Church and Luthern Church imported legit afghans that would have been killed by the Taliban here and they got deported by ICE lmao, maybe one of the only good things Zion don did
>>25436707the difference between a convert to Christianity and a convert to Islam is that the former does not adopt a culture entirely alien to their own as part of the conversion. Christianisation did not become synonymous with Judaisation; for instance, Europeans did not stop consuming pork nor did they begin circumcising their sons. they did not adopt Hebrew names. Islamisation, however, is synonymous with Arabisation. Saint Paul strongly warned Gentile Christians against Judaising, but no such figure exists in Islam.
>>25436760NTA, I offer two points of consideration1. You must grasp that Arabic is a sacred language for Muslims, which is a status far higher than a merely scriptural or liturgical language (like Greek and Latin respectively). Arabic is considered the highest of human languages because it was chosen by God as the language of his most perfect and final revelation in the Quran which is, for Muslims, the exact speech of the Creator Himself. For this reason the study/knowledge of Arabic will always remain an essential feature of Islamic scholarship. 2. This is not to be understood as some kind of semetophilia but rather as a full embrace of God's Will and of the Quran's special status. The language itself is hardly disappointing, it is by its nature pleasing to the ears and with its throaty consonants, long vowelings and abundance of rhyme it is perfectly suited to poetical expression and always beaming with a kind of primordial texture and grammar. The trilateral roots deriving the vast majority of words opens it up to a huge field of semantic possibility as well, ie multiple interpretive possibilities exist in abundance which explode the meanings of this Book, perfectly in line with what one would hope for from a text claiming to be revealed for every last person. One famous Persian scholar was once asked if he preferred Arabic or Persian and he stated that "I would rather be insulted in Arabic than praised in Persian."
>>25434873Idres Shah's Nasrudin tales
>>25434873Esoteric Islam is basically Ibn Arabi. The problem is that there are a ton of western midwits who are into perennialism and will give you shitty interpretations of his thought. This applies to Rumi as well. Best book on Ibn Arabi is probably Self-Diclosures of God, which is translations from his Futuhat al-Makiyyah. It's dense and heady stuff but Ibn Arabi is best read from the source with as minimal interpretation as possible. Just read him for yourself.You must realize that the "esoteric" side of Islam is really just a strain of Islamic theology. You should read Ibn Arabi and Rumi just like you should read Ibn Taymiyyah and al-Ghazali and Ibn Hazm.
>>25435333Ficino is cool but a lot of major Islamic theologians came before him. There's a reason why even Catholics admit that Dante took a lot from Ibn Arabi.
>>25436696I know it's annoying but Catholics and Orthodox do this all the time with Latin and Greek terms, respectively.
>>25436664How do you cope with Dhul Qarnayn being apparently a plagiarism of Syriac Alexander romance stories?
>>25436919>Arabic is considered the highest of human languages because it was chosen by God as the language of his most perfect and final revelation in the Quran which is, for Muslims, the exact speech of the Creator HimselfArabic was chosen because it was the language of Muhammad12:2 behold, We have bestowed it from on high as a discourse in the Arabic tongue, so that you might encompass it with your reason.14:4 AND NEVER have We sent forth any apostle otherwise than [with a message] in his own people's tongue, so that he might make [the truth] clear unto them; but God lets go astray him that wills [to go astray], and guides him that wills [to be guided] -for He alone is almighty, truly wise.>>25437322indeed, but Latin and Greek terms are also used outside of Christian discourse.
>>25437357>indeed, but Latin and Greek terms are also used outside of Christian discourse.So if some Catholics say the word anathema I'm supposed to chimp out? Of all the things you can criticize Islam for, having to learn a handful of words to understand their theology is not one of them. Its the same with every single religion. Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, will all have you learning non-English words. Sorry, mate. Learn another fucking language you dumb retard.
>>25436760If christians had preserved the language and scriptures the way Jesus spoke them, letter for letter, we probably woudn't be speaking english now. There have been many cases of people learning a language just to read a classic piece of literature the way it was written to not miss out on certain details.What other book can you listen to as it was revealed ca 1400 years ago to a group of monotheists in the desert of Arabia?https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UiAKg-zGNQw&pp=ygUVU2h1cmFpbSBtYWlkYSBlbmdsaXNo>>25437312Why study someone who seeks to follow the methodology of the earliest muslim community, thus purifying his beliefs from blameworthy innovations (ibn Taymiyya) AND the works of a heretic genius who sucks up religious principles left and right and makes up his own (ibn Arabi)?
>>25437368>Why study someone who seeks to follow the methodology of the earliest muslim community, thus purifying his beliefs from blameworthy innovations (ibn Taymiyya) AND the works of a heretic genius who sucks up religious principles left and right and makes up his own (ibn Arabi)?Nobody needs to read any of them. You read theology because you want to. Ibn Taymiyyah read Ibn Arabi and loved him until he was 40 years old and read the Fusus and started to hate him. There are plenty of people who will say Ibn Taymiyya was a heretic who made up his own innovations. Can you find the concept of temporally originating states and acts in the Divine Essence in the salaf?
Islam is spiritual and intellectual death masquerading as serene peace.
>>25437378He appreciated his ascetism before he found out about his deeply misguided convictions. The concept you ask about and other similar questions were asked later and he only engaged after asharis and maturidis took an incorrect stance on them. As he advised his student, a heart should be like a lamp, protected and with it's truth shining through. Not like a dripping sponge soaked up with doubts. A new convert even more than a scholar should guard his heart from falsehood.
>>25437340NTA but there is no reason why the Quran should be comprised entirely of original narratives, it never claims to be so and the fact that it is apparently formed with existing narratives known to the Prophet is rather akin to it being formed from Arabic words known to the Prophet. It would be rather shocking and odd if it had been revealed in Mandarin Chinese or modern English and the plotlines of Chaucer's pilgrims, but it also would have been ignored as the irrelevant and incomprehensible rantings of a madman and would not have been particularly successful in communicating anything to the 6th century Arabs it was revealed to. The idea of certain narratives existing prior to the Quran's revelation is well known to Muslim interpreters of the Quran (mostly in the form of narratives akin to the Hebrew Bible) though in the case you have mentioned I haven't the faintest idea of the accuracy of your claim. Certainly no serious Muslim will be at all perturbed by a modern scholar accusing Muhammad of weaving together this or that gnostic or Jewish narrative into the Quran. Obviously God prepared His Messenger to deliver the Message with comprehension for the purpose of establishing a universal religion and saving souls.
>>25434873>>25435757Books like this but for hinduism? I have taken an interest in the Bhagavata Purana and the Bhagavad Gita.
>>25437314ive got one foot in just making some fun jokes, and another in thinking there might be an intersting dialogue between east and west here. we all know the renaissance happens because some, not all, our islam friends saved the books.>>25437468this is the answer of someone who doesnt study a lot of art/literature/culture history
>>25435916It is a historical fact that the early christians believed in the divinity of Jesus Christ, as He told them, that's also why the pharisees thought that Jesus was a blasphemer when He identified with the I AM THAT I AM of the Torah. It's actually even worse than that for muslims since the Quran explicitly denies not only the divinity but also that Jesus is the son of God, which is found explicitly in the four Gospels.I can understand if people appreciate aspects of islam but to literally believe what the Quran teaches regarding the divinity of Jesus is simply nonsense and you have to be very low iq to still hold to that today when we have access to so much information
>>25437447>He appreciated his ascetism before he found out about his deeply misguided convictions.He said he loved the Futuhat al-Makiyyah, an extremely esoteric text. I understand the need to set aside theological mental gymnastics and over-intellectualization, but the salafi/wahhabi tendency to push others towards that same anti-intellectualism is something I can't stand. They are genuinely fearful that other people read books and apparently the greatness of Islam can't withstand that.
>>25437468This doesn't answer the problem at all. Dhul-Qarnayn in the Qu'ran appears to be an almost line by line summary of the Syriac Alexander Romance story. Why is this a problem? Because the Qu'ran appears to be plagiarizing a text that claims that Alexander the Great was a monotheist, and we know from history that Alexander the Great was a pagan polytheist.
>>25434873Chittick is good as a source on Sunni Sufism as others mentioned, Corbin mostly focuses on Ishraqi school and Shia mysticism. I recommend reading Jami's Lawaih for understanding Ibn Arabi's Akbari, he is considered a faithful interpreter of Ibn Arabi who expresses the man's idea more clearly than the man himself. Medieval sources describe central Asian Sufi teachers holding him & his writings in higher regard than Ibn Arabi. I also recommend Hakim Sanai's poetry which was a big influence on Rumi, both texts are here:https:// archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.204998https:// dn760003.eu.archive.org/0/items/firstbookofhadiq00sanauoft/firstbookofhadiq00sanauoft.pdf(spaces are for spam filter, just delete them)>>25436545>If you mean tawheed as in Gods unique right of being worshipped then the books of ibn Abdul Wahaab are considered great for new and advanced students. Aqeedah is key because the soundness of your faith depends on it. To die believing Allah is everywhere like ibn ArabiIf God isn't absolutely omnipresent as is pervading the contingent universe through and through and while also being beyond it, then your idea of God is one that is subject to limitations, which has boundaries and imperfections.>>25435333Ficino doesn't hold to the same degree of ontological non-duality of Sufism but has a more Neoplatonic view of existence-by-participation. Classic Sunni Sufism of the Ibn Arabi school has a more radically non-dual understanding (more similar to Advaita/Trika but still different from them), where only the One Being ultimately actually exists and derivative phenomena are merely relational modalities of the disclosure of the One's divine attributes, like a mirror displaying images within itself.>>25436346The art and vibes are kino once you learn to appreciate them>>25437312>You must realize that the "esoteric" side of Islam is really just a strain of Islamic theologyYes and No, it's more accurate to say that the Ibn Arabi school is more like a deeper level lying underneath the theology that unlocks the deeper meaning, that's why there are both Ashari Akabaris and Maturidi Akbaris', because Sufi metaphysics can be reconciled with each one and isn't a competing theology. Sadr al-din Qunawi actually makes a similar distinction as Guenon to the difference between supra-formal pure metaphysical truth and theology. I agree though that for any serious student knowing regular Islamic theology is important for deeply understanding Sufi metaphysics and wider teachings.
>>25437819>it's more accurate to say that the Ibn Arabi school is more like a deeper level lying underneath the theology that unlocks the deeper meaningNo not really.
Why do you guys think it is that so few westerners have interest in islam but so many are drawn to the far eastern traditions
>>25437911Non-sufis of course would disagree with that view, but its a simplified but still accurate understanding of how Sufi philosophers often viewed the relation of metaphysics and theology, where Sufi metaphysics explains the deeper supraformal reality whereas the schools of theology like Ashari or Maturidi are both valid ways of explaining, on a particular level of discourse or analysis, how this ultimate supraformal indeterminate reality manifests and relates itself to the world and the destiny of man etc. Both levels of discourse are true at the same time but the Sufi metaphysics is analyzing a deeper or higher level of reality or ultimate metaphysical truth.
>>25437948No, it's really just another strain of Islamic theology. I know you want to push this whole "supra-this supra-that" but it's really just another strain of Islamic theology. To act like Ibn Arabi, and his less creative followers, which tackling questions that Ibn Hazm, al-Ghazali, or Ibn Sina weren't also tackling is absurd and shows a lack of engagement with tradition.
>>25437801>"the problem"It's your problem, not mine. I don't care at all if a similar narrative exists prior to the Quran. The truth of the Book has already been established for me and none of that has ever hinged for a second on the idea that somehow the Prophet must be an entirely original story-teller. Can you explain why you think this is a necessary quality for a Prophet? Because I do not understand why this should be the case at all. >>25437689If you want to get into it we can get into it, but I am warning you not to mess with me because I know information that will make your Christian faith more difficult. I do not want to upset your personal practice. I congratulate you for being a believer and consider you a friend in this world that has become hostile to faith, I have no wish to make your faith more difficult. But if you continue to speak disrespectfully of Islam I will shred your Gospel in front of your face and make you eat its words. I am an ex-Christian that has studied the New Testament in depth, I know your book probably much better than you do. I am happy to part in silence as well.
>>25437939Islam has a very long history of being hated and slandered in western languages. To put it simply, Islam is the antithesis of the secular west. All of the Christian slanders of Islam were rapidly reformulated into secular slanders of Islam. This is why Islam is hated with a special kind of venom in the rantings of atheists like Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris. It's not uncommon to find thoroughly liberal and multicultural atheists who speak in generally cosmopolitan terms of embracing other worldviews and may even dabble in eastern religions or attend Unitarian Church but then say things like "I embrace all religions but Islam needs to have a reformation to adapt to the modern world. It's dangerous as it currently stands."
>>25437953>No, it's really just another strain of Islamic theology. I know you want to push this whole "supra-this supra-that" but it's really just another strain of Islamic theology. These are not arguments disproving anything I wrote, and Qunawi wrote at length on this very subject. You simply are ignorant of what you are talking about.>To act like Ibn Arabi, and his less creative followers, which tackling questions that Ibn Hazm, al-Ghazali, or Ibn Sina weren't also tackling is absurd and shows a lack of engagement with tradition.Guess what retard? Metaphysics and theology can approach the same questions and topics from different perspectives. Therefore, the claim "Ibn Arabi engaged the same topic as Ibn Sina therefore he wasn't focusing on metaphysics and was just doing theology" is a logical non-sequitur.
>>25437976NTA but you will not find any success at all in reaching others when you call them "retard." If your intent is not reaching truth with others then what is your intent?
>>25437989>NTA but you will not find any success at all in reaching others when you call them "retard." If your intent is not reaching truth with others then what is your intent?If I wanted to learn high quality information about Sufism or Islam via social media I would go on X and view quality posters on those topics and not go on 4chan.I simply stated true facts in my posts, and with usual 4chan brusqueness called someone a retard in response to them first calling my statement "absurd and shows a lack of engagement with tradition", on the basis of...... a logical non-sequitur (a fallacy)
>>25437960>The truth of the Book has already been established for me and none of that has ever hinged for a second on the idea that somehow the Prophet must be an entirely original story-teller.But it's plagiarizing a story that says Alexander the Great was a monotheist. Then Dhul Qarnayn must be fake. How can it be a divine book?
>>25437976You're saying Ibn Sina didn't engage with metaphysics? Read Ibn Arabi and you'll see he's *literally* responding to guys like Ibn Sina.
>>25438003It is a lack of engagement because it's just assuming that there is a distinction between what Ibn Arabi was doing (which is crypto-Hinduism) and what all the other Muslim theologians were doing. If you had read the primary sources you'd quickly see this isn't the case. I'm not even here to champion Ibn Arabi or say he got everything right, it's just very lazy when people equate his theology with Hinduism and the perennialists.
>>25438012It doesn't mention Alexander by name. Dhul Qarnayn is frequently considered to be identical to Alexander in tafsir literature. The classical writers in tafsir frequently used non-Quranic and non-Muslim sources to gain insight into the Quran, I know for certain in the form of Hebrew scriptures but I do not know what other extra-Quranic materials were widely used. In the case of stories similar to the Bible the presence of either similarities or differences has never been a cause of concern as to the Quran's divine status. Its truth is not established on this kind of basis anymore than it is established on archaeology or Darwinian theory. That kind of criticism is simply irrelevant to Muslims who have already accepted as the foundation of their religion that "Muhammad is the Messenger of God." To put it bluntly, if the Quran says Dhul Qarnayn was a monotheist, then Dhul Qarnayn was a monotheist. And if Dhul Qarnayn is the same person as Alexander, as many Muslims have argued, then Alexander was a monotheist-- the historical record is mistaken. Same goes for the talking infant Jesus/Isa in the Quran. Secular scholars who deny the Prophet will argue this betrays some kind of encounter or familiarity with the extracanonical gospels and reflects a human input from Muhammad. If the Quran says Jesus spoke as an infant, then Jesus spoke as an infant. And because it says Jesus was not crucified but rather ascended into Heaven without dying, then I must conclude the Gospels with their Crucifixion narratives are all incorrect on this point-- the Christians lost their own history and the Prophet recovered it. This is the ultimate reason for why this bothers you and why you think it should bother me: you reject the Messenger of God and I do not. I understand my reasoning in the preceding paragraph seems outrageous to you. I myself used that kind of thinking not long ago. But now that I have total faith in the Messenger of God, peace and blessings be upon him, I have stopped thinking in that manner and now think in another manner. The Quran is the basis of knowledge, not comparative text criticism, literary analysis or archaeology. I do not care at all what the secular historians claim. They but speak about that which they know naught of.
>>25438013>You're saying Ibn Sina didn't engage with metaphysics? Read Ibn Arabi and you'll see he's *literally* responding to guys like Ibn Sina.No, the point is that from the view of the Akbari school both exoteric theology and more speculative islamic philosophy like Ibn Sina pertain to the realm of the formal and rational while Sufism deals with the ultimate supra-rational and supra-formal Absolute, and that correct schools of exoteric theology contain this implicitly why is why they fit together with Sufi metaphysics like two puzzle pieces. Qunawi and his followers explain and systemize the different between the realm of supra-formal metaphysical truth from rational level and explain why only a direct, supra-rational and self-verifying 'intellectual intuition' they called 'verification' (Taḥqīq) can directly reveal ultimate metaphysical truths to oneself, which reason is incapable of doing. They don't regard this as being exclusive to Sufism but they hold that Sufism is the best and most consistent way of both elaborating and directly accessing these truths through Taḥqīq.That's why Qunawi's famous summary of each chapter of the Fusus and its import is named Kitāb al-Nuṣūṣ fī Taḥqīq al-Ṭawr al-Makhṣūṣ (The Book of Texts on the Verification of the Specified Mode), the 'verifying' in the name refers to the direct supra-rational intellectual intuition of ultimate metaphysical truth, which in their view Ibn Sina *at best* did not fully understand or correctly explain even if he had a few correct intuitions, hence why in their Sufi hermeneutical understanding Ibn Sina would not be categorized as fully engaging with the realm of ultimate metaphysical truth that Sufism deals with, even if academics would categorize Ibn Sina as a metaphysician. The Akbari doctrine cannot really be understood in isolation based on Ibn Arabi but his close followers and students clarify it in essential ways. It seems like you are ignorant of this whole intellectual history and these distinctions and are just basing this on a few Ibn Arabi books you read without an accurate understanding of the broader context.>>25438016>it's just very lazy when people equate his theology with Hinduism and the perennialists.I never did that once, I merely pointed out its mainstream Akbari view to distinguish pure metaphysical truth from realm of logic and rationality to which theology and philosophy pertains, this is not unique to Akbarism either but is shared in various forms by the Traditionalist School of Guenon and multiple Indian/Tibetan/Far-eastern traditions.And this is separate entirely point from the question of categorizing them as non-dual ontologies, Akbari doctrine can correctly be described as a kind of non-dualism, but a different type from Hindu or Buddhist non-dualism, and which conforms to the norms of Islamic theology, just as Hindu non-dualism conforms to Hindu theology etc.
>>25434873>islam>intellectualpick one
>>25436272non-pussified Christianity is a cure to both :)
>>25437793If we accept ibn Taymiyya admitting his appreciation for bin arabis work why refuse to accept when he also says that once he became aware of ibn Arabis clear deviation, he rejected him including his more vague, esoteric work where he speaks in riddles. A scholar is expected to follow the prophetic example, prophets didn't bring vague messages of coexistance. Differentiating the truth from falsehood was their top priority, a command from God so if salafis are anti intellectual then the salaf were too. Not sure what you mean by intellectualism, there is not a single human soul alive that knows more than the devil, would you delve into his work also? If anything salafis are least concerned with what the people will think, it's the inclusive "intellectual scholars" who overstep legal boundries to appease them with a message of pantheism and love of western philosophy. Don't mean to be rude, if you seek real knowledge you'll have your hands full with just the Qur'an, just Arabic or just aqeeda. Beyond islamic knowledge there's another infinite ocean of permissable and recommended knowledge of various sciences. Van we explain the fascination with these heretics other than as a desire to find divine gurus who are beyond following the rigid shari'a that not even messengers were excempt from
>>25437960>I will shred your Gospel in front of your face and make you eat its wordsNTA, but I want to see you do this.
>>25438173Anyone curious can find ample information on the Gospels, it's probably the most thoroughly dissected and evaluated text ever written. The kind of things I can point out involve intratextual criticism known since antiquity coupled with certain comparisons one can make to newly discovered texts especially at Nag Hammadi. Anyone can find information on that if they wish to know it. It only comes across as disruptive to faith for someone who has never bothered to study early Christian sources like Augustine. A certain kind of Protestant will be totally immune to it because their basis of faith will be a "personal relationship" with Lord Jesus and is not rooted in any biblical interpretation or authoritative church teaching.
>>25438152Permissible*. The last sentence is a question btw, can*The truth concerning religion is what the messengers came with and what is there after truth except falsehood? What greater injustice is there than to speak about Allah without knowledge (revelation)?
>>25438228NTA anon but you yourself admit there is an additional body of permissible and sometimes helpful texts beyond the Quran. If someone claims to find Ibn Arabi helpful in solidifying their faith in la ilaha ilallah mummad ar rasul allah then what's it to you? Leave him be. You have your texts and teachers, perhaps he has his. Why is it your business to label who is and is not a heretic? It's a hazardous business since those who declare war on the friends of Allah are at war with Allah Himself, and you can never quite know who is or is not a Friend of Allah can you? Why risk it? Mind your own business and your own path and let him have his.
>>25438152>If we accept ibn Taymiyya admitting his appreciation for bin arabis work why refuse to accept when he also says that once he became aware of ibn Arabis clear deviation,Nobody is saying that. If you want to read Ibn Arabi then read him, it's not necessary, and if you do it would be good to read critiques of him by people who came after, like Ibn Taymiyya who actually offered a pretty solid and nuanced critique of Ibn Arabi, and was also able to separate him from his followers like Qunawi whom Ibn Taymiyya considered to be worse.
>>25438239All the believers are awliya. I didn't do takfir, the scholars did and it's on the basis of kufri beliefs and to warn the ummah from such beliefs. This is why sufism gets a bad rep, they believe it's possible for there to be awliya that can do and say whatever because they reached a level of imaan where they can't lose it. They'll bring up Khidr and do the fearmongering and you name it. I'm letting everyone be, just saying if you find yourself covered by the darkness of the night and you can't tell truth from falsehood, the stars that will help you navigate are the sahaba and you know who the clear moon is. Among the scholars closest to the sahaba are ibn Taymiyya and ibn Qayyim and they're sadly and suspiciously often mentioned in the same breath by orientalists with some others who are closer to hindu gurus in creed.>>25438289I hope to get to it. Barak Allahu feek.
>>25438322The Sahaba are all dead, may Allah be pleased with them. Who speaks for them now? Were you appointed their khalifa? Did they appoint Bukhari and Muslim to be their spokesmen? Did you hear everything they said in public and in confidence? Part of why Bukhari went out collecting hadiths was because of a vision of the Prophet (s.a.w.s.) in a dream. Do you know all the people who saw in him their dreams and all the things he might have said to them? Is it possible the Prophet gave teachings to some in secret, perhaps Ali bin Abi Talib r.a.?
>>25438406In Sunni islam there are chains of narrations, their authentication and accepted hadiths collections by consensus and athaar. Allah preserved His speech as He said in His book as well as what is needed to understand it properly, otherwise it wouldn't have been a very useful preservation. Unlike sufi mystics Bukhari didn't use his dreams for credibility nor were these dreams the reason why the ummah values him. Claimant bears the burden as a hadith says, good luck proving people you've seen such a dream. The ghayb is for Allah, we can only judge the appearant. Scholars are evaluated based on their beliefs, statements and conduct and how much that corresponds with the salaf. Don't make things easier for dajjal, the ultimate guru. He'll dazzle with knowledge AND miracles.
>>25438519Yes of course. There are also different methodologies for establishing what is Sahih and what is not. This is why Imam Tirmidhi and Imam Bukhari wrote differing collections. And Imam Malik and Imam Muslim etc.... All had different methodologies. The Quran does not establish a methodology for assessing what is Sahih or not. These are theories of human beings. You want to say the collections are established by consensus. Fine. The consensus of whom? Who determines who is a valid scholar and who is a rogue scholar? You say they must be evaluated according to whether or not they are like the Sahabah. Fine. But how do you know what the Sahabah thought and did? From the Hadith collections! This is the problem with Salafiyya. It's circular! You cannot escape the need for a living teacher with isnad by leaning on the isnad of the established hadith collections! Islam is not a dead book! It's alive! How do you think the Salaf after the first generation died off came to know their religion? Through teachers! So be like them!
>>25437960sickening levels of pride on display here. hopefully satire
>>25438710Not him but my issue with Shi'ism is that when you take it to its logical conclusions it means the message of Islam was corrupted. Sunni Islam is less problematic, even though there are definitely some good questions raised by Shi'a like the Fadak incident and so on.
>>25438882I am not really arguing for the Imams of Twelver Shiism. I don't know if they are what they say they are or not.I am arguing for receiving your Islamic knowledge from real human beings that you have entrusted to follow and recognizing that the authority of knowledge comes from the person who transmitted it, not some abstract notion like "closeness to the Sahabah in beliefs."
if a book agrees with the Quran you don't need it and if it doesn't you should destroy it
>>25438710The consensus of ahlu sunnah. Teachers are essential but their creed, doctrine, aqeeda aka imaan must be in accordance with the salaf. The religion has been perfected, islam means to submit. Use your intellect to find and recognize the truth, the path to paradise is straight, clear and illuminated. You enter upon the path by two testomonies, the first shahada is a commitment to abstain from all forms of associating partners with Allah and to single Him out in worship. The second shahada is a commitment to follow the sunnah, without adding nonsense to it and not forming partisanship around any other single scholar. All worship must stand on these two pillars, it has to be sincerely for Allah and according the sunnah so you live based on the two testimonies and die upon them. This can be a very long post and we can address proofs, doubts and desires. Allah is the most just, after we die and are called to judgement how are we to explain our ideology? I followed Jesus because it was said the single way to salvation was believing he died for my sins and the fomo blinded me? My ustadh told he saw a vision? No.The Qur'an told me to follow the sunnah, the teachers of ahlu sunnah thought me the Sunni aqeedah with proofs from the Qur'an and sunnah. There is a great book on this, called the three fundamental principles by ibn abd Al Wahhaab, there are multiple playlists by english speaking students teaching it and I'll leave you with that.
>>25435980Trinitarian is Protestant and Orthodox as well
>>25438882So you have a living teacher with a fake connection to tradition, similar to how Advaita Vedanta got its resurgence. What now?
>>25439570You didn't address anything I said, you are just re-stating your beliefs with confidence in order to seal yourself off from doubt. Who determines "consensus of ahlu sunnah" ? How do you know what the aqeeda of the Salaf was? They didn't write about these things. Your stupid simpleton's version of Islam has hijacked the religion and pretty clearly a radically new interpretation begun in the 18th century and now in ascendancy due to Saudi funding from petrodollars. TE Lawrence gave the Wahhabis guns and gold and there has been a deep friendship between your ilk and the west ever since. Strange bedfellows. Stupid clocktower. You bulldozed the tombs of ahl al bayt. May Allah have mercy on those who behave this way, I do not think the Last Day will be easy for them.All you need is humility. You don't know everything about the salaf, about Islam, about the Quran, about Allah. Hush! Shoo!
>>25434873https://annas-archive.gl/md5/156ab37309e2de1bde2e61d0639e78ed
>>25440096Nice display of sufi humility there from our well adjusted anon. In the sunni world there are Hadith collections which are considered authentic by consensus, if you have objections concerning the authenticity of a certain narration let us now sheykh. Likewise there are athaar of tabi'in and the generation after them with good isnaad. On top of this there where great imams like most famously imaam Ahmad who spoke on the salafi aqeeda and there are others and all are accepted by consensus again as highly reliable leaders of the ummah among all sunnis. Some confused souls have sadly hijacked their madhabs and enemies of the muslims and misguided rulers institutionalized their deviant beliefs leading to the humiliation of muslims for centuries to come. They think they're smart for doubting principles established by the best generation, they doubt their own existence.When a kafir or fasiq comes with propaganda they suck it up without hesitation though. Sykes, Picot, Lawrence and them financed the panarabists in the ottoman empire, including the sharif of Makka. Ibn Saud chased these arab nationalists out and did us all a great favour. May their kingdom be rewarded for their efforts in educating the ignorant masakeen. Without this blessed da'wah the youths with some understanding growing up with sufi charlatans and their ridiculous superstitions would all either fall into the arms of extremists or leave the deen altogether. You need to be less sentimental and cry over real issues like graveworship instead of over a tower, leveling tombs is a command Ali received and executed. Waaleykum hush wa shoo Sheikh!
>>25436919As a Muslim, or person born into a Muslim family, I am confused about the relation between the bible and God (Allah). You say Arabic is sacred due to those points, but does this mean that Prophet Isa revealed his message in a language which is subpar to Muhammad’s (PBUH). Is this not problematic? Problematic because then the prophets were not treated the same, the argument could be that it was chosen for Muhammad because as the final messenger he necessitated special things in order to put the final word of God in the forefront. But surely this is ridiculous because if all was predetermined, then the final message her of God HAD TO BE successful, therefore this role, whoever it was given to received with certainty, a place in heaven. This is ridiculous to think about
>>25440439Answer my question:How did the salaf born after the Prophet (saws) and before the establishment of the authentic collections determine whether a report from the Prophet was authentic or not? >>254405002:285"The Messenger ˹firmly˺ believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and so do the believers. They ˹all˺ believe in Allah, His angels, His Books, and His messengers. ˹They proclaim,˺ “We make no distinction between any of His messengers.” "The prophets (peace and blessings on them all) are sent with the language of the people they are sent to. The Message of Tawhid can be expressed in any language. There is no problem here at all.
>>25440598My bad, thought I was speaking to a Sunni. Where could you possibly be going with this? I'm not a specialist in hadiths so I just follow the jama'a, I trust that Allah has preserved the sunnah as is indicated in His Book and that the sahaba He praised have fulfilled their responsability of carrying on the message just like they passed us the Qur'an and snakes were shut down by them especially under the reign of vigilant giants like Umar, Ali the other Umar untill the imaam of the sunnis, Ahmad who never fully recovered from the torturing he suffered, validated the work of Bukhari. You know why they tortured him? Because he insisted that the Qur'an is not created while his torturers believed it was though they both agreed it was Allah's speech. Just bringing this up to show you we're talking about men of principles here.To answer your question, they did a lot of cross examination and cross referencing of texts and isnaads, keeping descriptions and details of narrators, when they lived, where, who studied under them, who were their teachers, when their memory detoriated, when they died etc, barring those who were known for smallest of lies or who were suspected of biases, travelling for months just to doublecheck one narration and so on. What did you expect?Back then people had much stronger memories btw and they we're attentive listeners, they had to be because most couldn't write or read. Even 400 years ago peasants would Shakespeare and catch all the subtle jokes and what not that they now are studying in universities. We're walking a thousand years before that in the Arabian desert. No distributed ledgers, digital signatures or whatever you would need to be satisfied. Btw, few will admit this, other religions wish they had anything close to this. Would you at least agree that it's more reliable than "That night it came to me in a dream.."?
>>25440824>To answer your question, they did a lot of cross examination and cross referencing of texts and isnaads, keeping descriptions and details of narrators, when they lived, where, who studied under them, who were their teachers...Imam Bukhari (ra) did his absolute best to complete the work he did, and was truly gifted by Allah and well-equipped for this purpose by virtue of his excellent intellect, shockingly powerful memory and intense drive to search far and wide for hadiths. Have you read the Introduction to Sahih Bukhari where he lays out his methodology and argues that he is writing an authoritative collection meant to clarify once and for all the true hadith? No you have not, because he did not write one. Nor did he ever argue such a thing. He would almost certainly be horrified that people have elevated his book to a kind of Quran Part II (aoothu billahi!). Hadith sciences have always been exceptionally difficult, complicated and open to interpretation. Bukhari himself uses non-Sahih hadith in his book on adab. The methodologies developed by the early collectors varied according to their own reasoning. They were developed in response to a growing awareness that hadiths were being lost, fabrications were becoming more prevalent, and the Umma had reached a point in its history where recording them as volumes was increasingly the practical thing to do. This is to be contrasted with the Prophet (saws) who generally forbid the writing of his Sunnah except in particular cases where permission was granted, and who (saws) in his immense wisdom, anticipating the confusions of later times, was always at great pains to distinguish his own words and thoughts from those of the Quran. We all know Islam is Quran + Sunnah. Now Salafis like to say Quran + Sunnah + Sahabah. Isn't that telling? I digress-- how exactly one comprehends Sunnah is not explained in the Quran. The classical solution to this was the consensus which formed around the four madhabs and the authoritative collections. To understand the nuances of fiqh and hadith sciences requires many years of study from a master who is gifted in both knowledge and in possession of upright character. It is impossible for a teacher to avoid falling into error if his character is low (for scholars this has almost always manifested in the form of courting reputation and political influence-- see Imam Ghazali's Ihya 'ulum al deen). There is one way to learn this religion and it has not changed since the Night of Power, since Khadija (ra) became a Muslim by bowing to the knowledge of her teacher and husband Muhammad (saws) because she perceived the exceptional strength of al-Amin's blessed and upright character. This is how the salaf knew to distinguish truth and falsehood as well: by knowing the character of the men who claimed to teach knowledge. Nothing has changed. You cannot learn Islam without righteous teachers you follow in all aspects of life. Islam is not a debate contest.
>>25440862Fair enough. The saheeh collection of Bukhari is notorious for its additional condition of liqa but there is only one perfect book. That being said, the revelation is not complete without the sunnah and as you noted: Islam = Qur'an and Sunnah. It's a sin, a very dangerous, to dismiss and step over a command or prohibition because well it' "just" a Hadith. The sunnah commands to hold on to the path of the righteous khulafa with the molar teeth, and it commands to follow in the footsteps of the sahaba as does the Qur'an.This is a reminder to me first, you're right it is not a debate contest.
>>25440964There is a rare amount of genuine humility in this post, especially given the nature of this forum. I am deeply grateful you have taken the time to understand where I'm coming from here.I will also admit my history was totally incorrect when I accused the Wahhabis of taking money from TE Lawrence. That was Faisal and the Hashemites who took the dirty money. I didn't realize the three-way nature of this conflict (Ottomans, Wahhabis/Saud and Faisal/Hashemites w/ western backing) This is very important, since I am increasingly coming around to the view that some of the Salafis, perhaps some of the quietists who are critical of the modern Saudi state, are devoutly sincere and committed to a perspective which is serving the umma, even if it is not my own perspective. It does break my heart what they did to the gravesites. Many of us wish to pray to Allah for their mercy at the location of their remains, which I think is a very natural thing to do, and I don't see how adding a roof above the grave and some beautiful tilework or calligraphy is idolatrous-- we decorate our mosques and homes this way. Jazakumallah khairun wa barakallahu feek.
>>25434873Is Corbin worth checking out? I have a lot of collected Perennialists but from what I wager (heh) Corbin is less universalist and more hermeneutic.
>>25441373The evolution from praying for the dead to the shirk of praying to them is very real, well-known and widespread and so is the building of domes and shrines over them. Another reason could be to not have the rich and powerful build elevated expensive structures to "remember and honour" their deceased that may inspire awe next to the barely visible graves of the poor, all humans are from it and we all return to it. Whatever the reason may be, the command is clear and the hadith is authentic, seeking for reasons to not fullfill a command is a defining trait of the Jews following the example of iblees. The religion of Ibrahim was submission to Allah (islam).Why should they be critical of modern Saudi? Besides the obvious riba, dancing and singing that are present everywhere.
Check these out immediately then1. https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/36931222/#369312222. https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/36976168/#369761683. https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/37023268/#370232684. https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/37093515/#370935155. https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/37134196/#371341966. https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/37237392/#372373927. https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/37333243/#37333243His discord: alawiteanonHis email: alawiteanon@gmail.comHe is writing a free book and it is incredible.
>>25441750There is no need to destroy the tombs and disturb the bodies. That is extremely disrespectful in a way I am shocked you do not grasp. If you cannot change people's habits through khutbas and madrasas for something as basically obvious as "do not pray to the dead since Allah is your only helper, rather pray for them" then you have to be some kind of cow-tongued idiot or an impatient tyrant. Part of the problem here is that you cannot hear people's silent prayers and people become suspicious, but to think the worst of your fellow Muslims is itself an act of unfaith. By far the shirk of worshiping the self is far more worrisome and real than the occasionally confused worship of common people. Worship of the self is characterized by pride.In the domain of intellectual matters pride manifests as a self-assurance and in at its worst, a willingness to slander, destroy and kill whatever you yourself find disagreeable. Many have followed zealots who in their passionate pride stirred the emotions of those around them. I don't know what the soul of Ibn abd al Wahhab was made from. Perhaps he was an ardent believer with some intellectual mistakes, perhaps he was something much worse.Allahu allam. The people who follow bad shaykhs because they are deceived and unable to knowbetter, be the shaykh sufi or salafi, will ultimately be forgiven. But the shaykhs who have fallen to pride and then rouse others to shirk, haram behaviors, violence or the takfiring of innocent pious Muslims will be dealt with severely. Modern Saudi Arabia is a disgusting and wretched state may Allah have mercy on the House of Saud and redeem it from its blindness, for it has gained a taste for gold and power and has forgotten what these worldly advantages are for, choosing petrodollar funded lavish lifestyles, prostitutes and worldly pleasure instead of waging jihad for the Palestinains and to defend the Holy Cities from the influence of the modern west. Saudi Arabia deserves blame for hosting American soldiers on the Holy Land in the first Gulf War and now they are prepared to sign the Abraham Accords and have sided with America and Zionists in the war of aggression on the Iranians in full view of all the world. The blight which has overtaken Mecca is a perfect symbol of the corruption that has seized the House of Saud and the many Salafi-leaning clerics who scratch their backs and turn their heads away when these men act like playboy millionaires while on vacation in Dubai, contenting themselves with salaries and cushions rather than risking arrest for saying the truth, because they are weak men. This tower, designed mostly by Europeans, which places the Kaaba in its steel-frame shadow is one of the most sickening and arrogant constructions ever made. And everyone pretends it is no big deal. It is a tower for Dajjal. His time is coming. "The naked, the destitute, the barefoot and the shepherd will vie with one another in building."
>>25441750>Whatever the reason may be, the command is clear and the hadith is authenticThis comes down to a matter of hadith sciences and interpretation. For example there are multiple versions of the hadith in which the Prophet (saws) decries women visiting gravesites, some of which refer to all such women and others which refer to those who are frequently doing this. You cannot just take one hadith and base an entire portion of religion on one hadith, especially when your interpretation of that hadith puts you at odds with most of the Umma and over a thousand years of practice. That one hadith could be one of the few fabrications that made their way into a collection. Or it could be that an abrogating hadith was declared da'if and not included, even though Allah could know it to be true. Such a possibility is always there, and you need a very very strong case to go against the madhabs and centuries of established practice.Those shrines were there in one form or another for centuries, and nobody felt the need to tear them down. If it were so obvious as you seem to find it, why didn't anyone else do what the Wahhabis did in the 19th century? Taking a stance that is so drastically new, dare I say ...innovative... one must have extremely good reasons for doing so, and a hadith or two does not suffice. Bukhari did not receive his collection from Jibril, his work is subject to all the fallibility of human beings, and he would have been the first to admit this.
>>25441750Sayyiduna ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Amr (radiyallahu ‘anhuma) is reported to have said: “…When you see tunnels/canals being dug in Makkah Mukarramah and the buildings (of Makkah Mukarramah) higher than the peak of the mountains then know that Qiyamah is close.”(Musannaf ibn Abi Shaybah, Hadith: 14306)Al Muhaddith Shaykh Muhammad ‘Awwamah (May ‘Allah protect him) has classified the above Hadith as sound (hasan) in his footnotes on Musannaf ibn Abi Shaybah, Hadith: 14306.Open your eyes brother and Fear Allah.
>>25441812This is fantastic, thank you
>>25441827Is this what reading in Arabi does to a person?I think the dead are more disturbed by the grave worshippers, that's what is shocking. Did you receive this dramatic story about the tower from Jibreel? Or do you just think the worst of your fellow muslims? Fyi dajjal can't enter Makka.There are other references establishing evidence for the practice of leveling tombs but since you don't want to hear it, it will fall on deaf ears again. But this critical thinking disappears when you listen to the ruwaybida.Do you know how much blood the tyrannical zealots of the Iranian regime have on their hands? It's a self mutilating grave tomb licking death cult. Notice how they didn't mention Gaza in their eleven point peace plan? It's like their suffering was used as a political tool. Sometimes politicians hide their intent and keep their enemies closer, that doesn't mean anyone loves or trusts Jews, genius.Not one country in the ummah has done more for Palestine than Saudi, look at the biggest donors. You should be thankful that there is a conservative muslim country whose people aren't drowning themselves to flee from it to the west. A good standard of living, geared towards muslim families and not a single church, synagogue, Hindu temple or sufi shrine. It's great that you have this enthousiasm but have you thought this jihad through? Why should Saudi lead the charge? It's a young nation that just had a population boom, about 30 million people with the average age around 17. A mostly flat desert that is highly dependant on highly vulnerable power and desalination plants and oil fields for the economy. Jordan is more green and hilly, Egypt has a population of over 100 million. Why not them, because they lost and had to give up land? Why not Turkey? What if Saudi loses and has to give up land?Will the current US administration sit on the sidelines? Will they provide real time hd satellite streams and high precision long distance weapon systems? Will other parties join the war? Were the Muslims not commanded to not humiliate themselves by taking on more than they can handle? Does it please Allah when His servants are destroyed?I think we have another Rome vs persia situation and Rome is the lesser evil. Iran, China and Russia have killed and will kill muslims, they're not going to save you. The west at least likes the idea of being the good guys, the eastern alliance doesn't care other than for pragmatic reasons. An authentic Hadith says muslims will be useless like the scum of the sea despite being numerous. Another says Allah will send down humiliation upon us that can't be lifted. What's the solution in both hadiths? Return to the religion, the foundation. What's the foundation? The Greeks? The mysticism? It's the salaf again. When the jizya tax for dhimmis was abolished by the Ottomans, the muslims had to start again. The Wahhabi name stuck but the reformation was initiated by multiple callers.Leaders are only as decisive as the people.
>>25441541He is. People like to dogpile on Corbin for pushing his own interpretation of things but I think he's good and comes closer to the truth of what the text says than the perennialists who just turn everything into Advaita.
>>25441812damn, it's just rehashed gnosticism
>>25443890>grave worshippersGrave visitors are not grave worshipers. You have no right to equate these terms. > Did you receive this dramatic story about the tower from JibreelIt comes from the "Hadith of Gabriel" narrated by among others Abu Bakr and found in various versions including Bukhari. It is rated Sahih. If this hadith is true then the Angel Gabriel literally confirmed the Prophet's list of signs of the End. One of them is that "When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and competing with others in the construction of higher buildings." Do you see the Arabian peninsula right now with its 1km tower, its burj dubai, its giant cube in Jeddah etc. etc. etc?>Do you know how much blood the tyrannical zealots of the Iranian regime have on their hands? At least they aren't hosting American jets!>Not one country in the ummah has done more for Palestine than SaudiThe whole Umma is sick and has abandoned the Palestinians and abandoned the Dome. There are exactly three groups that have attacked Israel during its merciless massacre of Gaza: Hezbollah, Houthis, Iran. Do they get a pass for Syria or for any of the wacky regime strategies of the Mullahs? No. But facts are facts. Not one Sunni country (and I am Sunni by the way) has done anything for Palestine since Oct. 7 except talk talk talk. Saudi chief among them. Do they give some checks out to Abbas once in a while? Sure, and they had better, they are awash in cash. It is to be expected, they do not get medals for paying zakat. >You should be thankful that there is a conservative muslim country whose people aren't drowning themselves to flee from it to the westBecause Saudi Arabia has made for a high standard of living for Arabs using petrodollars, and it is willing to play along with America so it isn't getting CIA green revolution'd or outright invaded every other year like every country from Tunisia to Afghanistan. No Arab Spring revolt in Saudi. How bout that. As for the non-Arab Muslims who slave away building and serving tea to the Arabs all day, they can't wait to leave as soon as their checks clear. >Why should Saudi lead the charge? You just laid out all these reasons Saudi is exceptionally good, that it does more for Palestinians than anyone else, that it holds the line against western influence with its rigid Salafi version of Islam. If you think it's exceptional then you are saying it is in some sense a leading nation. Here you are pointing fingers now at all the other much poorer Muslim countries in the region to defend your favorite one. Shame on you! Be a man and take responsibility!>Does it please Allah when His servants are destroyed?Ask the followers of Ibn Abd al Wahhab>What's the solution in both hadiths?The Mahdi>What's the foundation? 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection."Do you see "righteous Salaf" on that list?
>>25443890>Leaders are only as decisive as the people.Didn't we just spend half the thread establishing the need to follow a righteous and knowledgeable teacher in order to learn this religion? Have you forgotten already?"Leaders are only as decisive as the people" is such a telling remark from you. Let me apply this general rule to Prophet Muhammad (saws):"The Prophet was only as decisive as his followers" (Aoothu billahi!!)"The Prophet was only as decisive as his righteous companions" (Aoothu billahi! Astaghfirullah!)NO, no no no. People are formed by their leaders ("And to every people we have sent a Messenger"). How foolish can you be?Our leader is the greatest of all leaders, would you diminish him? Would you say he is only as successful as his Umma? Shame on you! Have you forgotten to love Rasul Allah, like Abu Bakr and Umar and Ali loved him? Do you weep tears for him in your prayers or is he just a name to you? Do you not see that your entire salvation and all of your knowledge and every clarification you have ever received from the truth of Islam is through this one man? Will you not be grateful?
>>25444303Gay liberals have done more for Palestine than Sunni Muslims. Really makes you think.
>>25444756I'm sorry but standing around in a major western city with a cardboard sign and taking selfies to virtue signal on Instagram is not doing anything for the Palestinian people whatsoever. I would know I've clocked hundreds of hours doing it.
>>25444761And yet it's still more than what Sunni Muslims have done...let that sink in.
>>25444770I'm a Sunni Muslim. Quite a few of us turn out for these demonstrations, which are always a very bizarre assortment of practicing Muslims and crazy liberals. I've been both. I used to be a crazy liberal before becoming Muslim. Alhamdulillah I don't have those delusions anymore of thinking I can save the world. I went to my first march for Gaza in 2009, I was in student organizations dedicated to this issue ca. 2015. I've been around this stuff for a long time. I don't need your invitation to let it "sink in." The only good that can come from these demonstrations is for the best among the crazy liberals to get a reality check by seeing the nobility of the Palestinian people and the extreme evil of their own societies and hopefully become Muslims. That is the only good that can come of these protests unfortunately.
>>25444303What about grave visitors who worship graves?I mean who gave you the right to equate bedouins competing in tall buildings before end times and the clocktower being evil work of dajjal? Revelation, no fantasy.The irgc attacked only after being bombed, very telling. Imagine how much blood could have been spared if they didn't whisper in Hamas ears. Imagine if PLO accepted one of several deals the Saudis lobbied the US for. Deals the Palestinians can't even dream of now. Imagine if the baathist panarabist kafir party of Iraq at the time that favoured man made law over the shari'a didn't attack their Muslim neighbours and acted in a way where they could profit from having some of the biggest oil reserves. Saudi as a leading nation is seeking de-escalation, it doesn't want anyone to act in despair.>can't wait to leaveIf only it were that easy to get a work visa. You don't know how many wish for a permanent one, let alone citizenship.>The MahdiNow you claim the solution in both hadiths I described is not:"return to the religion"? Do you have 2 Hadiths that match my description with the Mahdi as the solution or are you changing the revelation?That's 4 of the 6 pillars of Imaan. The same Hadith narrated by Umar in Muslim has all six but fine. How to believe in them is the question. Is Allah a god among others? A demiurge? The upper God? What are His sifaat? What nullifies this belief? And so on, to know the answers we must study how the salaf understood the holy scriptures and not see it through a platonic lens.>>25444319Did you seriously just compare our rulers to messengers of Allah? Insane!Now that you bring it up though. The sahaba are a great example of how to support a leader. Imagine being the leader and having Abu Bakr standing by you from start to finish with his insights and status, sparing no wealth to sacrifice for your mission. When Umar converted the muslims found the courage to pray at the Ka'ba publicly for the first time. Picture the morale boost when Khalid stepped over to the good side and there were many other examples of individual conversions. Not to mention the ansaar and other Tribes and confederations who provided the crucial financial, military and political support to weaken and destroy the enemy. When he was the ruler, Ali was met by a dissatisfied group who complained about him not being like Umar and Abu Bakr, he answered:" they had the likes of me and I have the likes of you!". Imagine how our rulers must feel, did they force us to waste hours on our phones while stuffing our faces with junk food? Don't they spend huge sums of developing education and infrastructure in the hopes of raising a solid nation? Will those Gaza rioters hold out longer than several days in the trenches when bombs shred bodies to pieces? No internet, no snacks, no couches, no running hot water, overloaded hospitals .. I think most won't even survive without likes on social media. The ummah is weak indeed, the solution is there
>>25445408>What about grave visitors who worship graves?If they do so out loud, warn them, chastise them and punish them if necessary. If they do so quietly, it's between them and Allah. Do you intend to become a thought policeman?>Did you seriously just compare our rulers to messengers of Allah?No you have misunderstood me entirely. Read it again and ask for clarifications if need be, I don't know how on earth you came away with such a conclusion. The rest of this portion of your reply is nothing but disorganized rambling and I don't care to read it. In any case it appears we have passed the point of dialoging and I don't see that there is much point in carrying any more. Assalmu alaikum, Allah knows best. Inshallah we will meet in Jenna.
>>25445418It's okay sweetheart, I thought were being dramatic so I just turned it on you. All I said was leaders are only as decisive as their people and this statement may not be exactly 1 for 1 correct but what I tried to show is that an average man leading a loyal nation of capable men who take initiative and are willing to sacrifice their money and life for a greater cause, will get much more done than a similar leader leading a disloyal nation of entitled men that you can't even motivate with money. Our religion teaches us to not criticize the ruler publicly but to look at ourselves first and advise the ruler in private. Sorry I didn't make it more coherent, I need to work on that. Waaleykum assalam.
>>25434873i saw this thread when you made it on the other board brotherfinna bump for that
>>25445408The solution is to stop being violent apes focused on conquest when you don’t even have a reliable electricity net, lol.
>>25444113I was looking up his concept of the Mundus Imaginalis and it appears to me that is a bridge of sorts that modernity destroyed which enabled the subjective material realm to perceive the objective realm of ideas, functioning essentially as a lifeline for spirits to descend to earth and for us to ascend to heaven. Now that several millenia have passed humans are simply stuck in a subjective passive state and the spirits of above are unable to reach us. I can see how this feeds into the hermeneutic claim as Hermes transmitted messages between planes of existence.
>>25448510That may help in some cases but muslims aren't fixated on conquest unlike their enemies and they haven't been in a long time. If they were, they wouldn't be were they are now. Muslims have been only attacking out of vengeance, to save face or some other emotional reason.Secondly your advice doesn't solve the problem of malicious rodents colonizing their cities.The good news is things inevitably will change, idk how zios thought this project would just go on. Aren't Jews supposed to be smart? You'd think they'd learn at some point. Are you Jewish? Some of you guys are alright. Once you're done with the Iranian dragon and the two smaller shia groups, zios may want to have transitioned by then if they want to stay, to do what they used to under their Muslim overlords.
>>25448862>muslims aren't fixated on conquest unlike their enemiesyeah but isn't it explicitly written in the Quran that conquest is their means of evangelization?
>>25449227NTA but maybe stop getting your information about Islam from Alex Jones and just read the Quran for yourself? It's approximately the length of the New Testament, it isn't difficult to read. The Clear Quran translation is very readable and affordable and easy to obtain for free. You can also read multiple translations verse by verse on Quran.com
>>25449250I don't even watch Alex Jones and never have. you need to take your meds, bro.
>>25449301I don't claim to be clairvoyant and thus to know your exact podcast or infotainment of choice. I was using Alex Jones as a metonym/synecdoche. Why didn't you reply to the rest of the post? Are you afraid of reading? Why are you on the literature board?
>>25449227Where? 2:193 and 8:39? There is context provided by the salaf concerning thes verses:>Sahih al-Bukhari 7095Narrated Sa`id bin Jubair:`Abdullah bin `Umar came to us and we hoped that he would narrate to us a good Hadith. But before we asked him, a man got up and said to him, "O Abu `Abdur-Rahman! Narrate to us about the battles during the time of the afflictions, as Allah says:-- 'And fight them until there is no more afflictions (i.e. no more worshipping of others besides Allah).'" (2.193) Ibn `Umar said (to the man), "Do you know what is meant by afflictions? Let your mother bereave you! Muhammad used to fight against the pagans, for a Muslim was put to trial in his religion (The pagans will either kill him or chain him as a captive). His fighting was not like your fighting which is carried on for the sake of ruling."People can be called to Islam in various ways but it requires wisdom and the prevention of harm takes precedence over bringing about good. A religious offensive war is declared by an established nation's Ameer, it made sense a thousand years ago when the Europeans were slaughtering each other for a vassals territorial gains or resources and when missionaries were getting stopped at the gates. In the modern world with everyone having access to the internet? I don't know. If you're insinuating that Muslim migrants in the west will take it over like the Jews did Palestine pretending to be peaceful refugees then no. Jews were sending their best and fiercest patriots with massive military, financial and political support from (Jews in) the west and the east with a clear goal in mind.Muslim refugees are fleeing to the west either because they're fleeing a warzone or another more oppressive non muslim country and it's more convenient to start a new life there, staying permit/naturalization, social safety net etc, or to make more money or because their home country isn't degenerate enough for them and there's a very tiny percentage of migrants with valid reason and it's the only group that may receive any support from their country of origin like those in need of rare medical treatment or student of knowledge that's not available in the Muslim world, diplomatic, business and da'wah missions. Those with invalid reasons and their descendants either become westernized or they crash out because of an identity crisis or they leave because sooner or later you end up interacting, studying and working with the locals or immigrants who do.
>Thread on ''islamic esotericism''>Immediately devolves into political shitflinging and >>25439399 levels of argumentationEvery time
>>25449574There is a rather large portion of the Muslim world known as Salifiyya who offer a kind of "back to the roots" or "fundamentalist" approach to Islam. They tend to be highly skeptical of Sufism or even classical Islamic theology, sometimes to the point of executing Sufi Shaykhs like the various ISIS spin offs currently rampaging through Africa (with CIA assistance like in Syria? God knows). But many of them are just highly argumentative and have certain cues that set them off on a vociferous racket, such as the name "Ibn Arabi." There appear to be at least two Salafis on /lit/ that I am fairly certain both discovered Salafi Islam through the internet, where (with Saudi funding) the Salafis have an undue presence out of proportion to their actual numbers. Traditional Muslims have been extremely slow to react to the internet or even feel it is to be avoided. The resulting vacuum coupled with the petrodollar funding has exploded the Salafi presence even in the west, and anyone seeking to learn more about Islam is likely to be quickly encountered by Salafis who have a kind of well-established form of doing dawa or invitation/preaching to new/non Muslims. They are pretty good at what they do and always speak with a posture of authority and certainty that is attractive to people in a confusing world. Anyway that is the cause of mystical or Sufi themed Islamic threads tanking into outrageous and generally anti-intellectual tirades. People who don't know what's going on probably think Muslims are book-burning clowns thanks to this rather unfortunate boisterousness but what can you do. For the record there are many paths in Islam and I think Salafis are among them. At least they are very good at teaching people to recite al-Fatihah with good tajwid and tend to have a lot of knowledge about the hadith, or at least Sahih Bukhari. And many of them mean quite well. But I suspect many have lost their way entirely, though God knows best.
>>25448862>muslims aren't fixated on conquest unlike their enemiesYeah the Byzantines, Persians, Egyptians, North Africans, Visigoths, Franks, Sicilians, Georgians, Azerbaijanis, Armenians, Afghans, Balearic islanders, Italians, Serbians, Croatians, ... ALL attacked first and the dindu muslims just had to defend themselves and conquer the territoryfuck off, you are no better than jews. Get a job and integrate into the countries your ancestors have been leeching welfare off since their arrival or go back to your sand dunes and have fun killing each other over minute religious differences. The only reason you appear to not be focused on conquest is because you know you won't succeed, that's why all muslims do in 2026 is beg for sympathy on social media. Kek.
>>25449606>Salafi IslamPure meme. The components of Islam that enable these characteristics have always been around since the dawn of islamic jurisprudence, before that term even became a thing, because the very core of the religion is preservation. It's not about exploration or about encouraging going off the beaten path. What lead to the various branches of the religion that we know of today, including the large tree that is ''Sufism'', are the clashes between a fundamentally Arab culture predicated on something akin to a pure sola scriptura attitude to any interpretative efforts and the ''conquered'' cultures that had to readjust (or rather get readjusted) to this new order ; which divided people between the curious and uncurious, the former taking one step away from the core adherents of 1st century Islam than the latter. How said strands played the political game is why they managed to endure in the first place. Hence why the more speculative approaches to the text typically came from non-arabs, because that's the socio-cultural came that they inherited and how they attempted to correlate between their past and this seemingly new order that was staunchly opposed to it. Ibn Arabi would not have gone into these tangents had he not bathed in the free flowing climate of Andalus where the two other abrahamic traditions were wrestling with mysteries for centuries on end. All the talk about ''abdul wahhab'' gets nullified once you pay further attention to what the 4 grand schools of Sunnism have been peddling around for 10 centuries, which is pretty much the exact same thing. You just have an Arab tradition of interpretation, and the others. The rest were trying their best to syncretize who they were with what they've been given, so you end up with the traces of Taoism in Western Chinese Islam, the traces of Tengrism in Central Asia...etcYou can crudely simplify a lot of fiqh as trying to beat something with a stick until it either falls in line or it drops dead, in an abstract sense, because almost every grand question is a settled affair as afar as they are concerned. You either manage to make something work for the further preservation of Meccan society, or you toss it down the stairs. It is the unsatisfied who have been unable to internally accept the law as laid by the dawn of islam that venture into these paths we call ''esoteric''. They've got a lot more in common with so-called infidels than with the established canons, and the threat of the sword has a lot to do with it. Avicenna et al. only managed to concern themselves with Greek heritage because they were in the court's favors. You cannot try to convince me that the guy who wrote the Book of Healing was really all that jolly about the Sunna.What you're left with are schools that bicker about semantics for eternity and tariqas that try to interject with occultic practices. There is no space for ''intellectual exploration'' in that way that western philosophy has accustomed you to.
>Islam>Intellectual
>>25449741We've already argued over this the entire thread, as well as (I think) in several other threads. Please give it a rest. It's very tiresome. I'm not coming over to your corner nor are you coming over to mine.
>>25449703If you noticed I said they aren't fixated (now) and haven't been for a long time or read my follow-up reply >>25449550 you wouldn't need to write the bs you just did but no problem. Let it all out.>>25449746Just so you know, I was the one going on about inn Arabi itt, not the brother you just replied to. I want to give it a rest also but I do feel the need to speak on the isis and other kharijites being a salafi spin-off myth and the petrodollar thing which I'm not sure you and most other know what it means.
>>25449746I'm NTA, but i do agree with this>I'm not coming over to your corner nor are you coming over to mine.Mainly because we're on 4channel
>>25449771petrodollar refers to a trade agreement between the United States and Saudi Arabia (and all of OPEC if I'm not mistaken) that requires every importer of Arabian oil to purchase said oil in United States Dollars, thus requiring all nations who wish to buy gulf oil to participate in the US bond market and requiring the Gulf countries to reinvest their US dollars in the American economy (often by purchasing weapons, so it heavily promotes military alliance as well). It's a fairly brilliant if altogether unholy arrangement. Properly speaking the major influence on al-Qaeda was the jihadi theory of Qutb, not Salafism, but their reasons for conducting jihad were caused by the Saudi-US alliance, namely hosting American troops on Saudi territory and their support for Israel. It is undeniable that Jihadi groups since ISIL became ascendant ca. 2014 were heavily Salafi in their interpretation of Shariah, and it is undeniable that many jihadis have combined Qutb and Salafism (which is why ISIS is opposed to al-Qaeda/al-Nusra on certain fronts). So yes it is more complicated than salafism->ISIS, but it's also obvious you would have never had al-Qaeda without the corrupt Salafi clerics in Saudi Arabia and you would have never had ISIS without al-Qaeda and Salafi influenced Shariah.
>>25449808Yes, and most of the oil goes to Asia. People use the petrodollar for dramatic effect like it's some zog pocket money to do zog things. It's money mostly payed to Saudis by China, Japan, Korea and India for their God given natural resource and it's in dollars. Is there a difference between salafis and the kharijis and what is it? Take your time, I've got something to do.
>>25449808>>25449606The crazy thing about Islamic jihad and Salafism is that their acts of terrorism/resistance never once impinge on American and Israeli imperialism, and they somehow can't see this or are in denial. Pretty embarrassing.
>>25448510It really comes down to this. There's an internal mentality that keeps them from progressing. The only Muslim countries that are clean and advanced are the soulless Gulf monarchies and Iran to some extent.
>>25449353Not what I was implying either, try again. I read plenty. I'm not the one talking like I have a stick up my ass otherwise you wouldn't have brought up Alex Jones in the first place. You read into things too much.
>>25449903Yeah after al-Sharaa the former al-Qaeda member took power in Syria with CIA/Mossad assistance it all became rather glaringly obvious. Assad fell rather conveniently right after Israel began its current war against Hezbollah in Lebanon, thus cutting Hezbollah off from its land-bridge to Iran and precluding the possibility of Hezbollah attacks through Syria. It's by now very clear that ISIS style groups are basically mercenaries for the CIA and/or Israel. The whole thing is despicable and shocking and really disturbing, it gives away the American Media as being a very deliberate propoganda machine, it's much worse than Noam Chomsky's Propoganda Model which argues that the US media more or less accidentally fulfills the role of government propaganda. It's all completely intentional and people who get their information from MSM are living in a fake reality. I'm glad I no longer place any hope in politics or any hope in worldly leaders or institutions. It was making me totally crazy figuring this kind of stuff out and then not being able to do anything about it. Now I feel very strongly that the world is approaching its end and that thesis has led to a lot of surprisingly accurate predictions. If you just assume everything will get worse then it's obvious that there will be no truth and reconciliation committee around Epstein, and I will not be at all surprised when we learn (as we inevitably will) that there are others like him but worse, nor will I any longer be perturbed by the lack of response from the public, since it is all to clear that the security state has solidified its control over the population even if they have not yet solidified control over alternative media information, but that is coming in due time.
>>25437960>If you want to get into it we can get into it, but I am warning you not to mess with me because I know information that will make your Christian faith more difficult. I do not want to upset your personal practice. I congratulate you for being a believer and consider you a friend in this world that has become hostile to faith, I have no wish to make your faith more difficult. But if you continue to speak disrespectfully of Islam I will shred your Gospel in front of your face and make you eat its words. I am an ex-Christian that has studied the New Testament in depth, I know your book probably much better than you do. I am happy to part in silence as well.christians have died for their trinitarian faith up to the present day, you think that they are scared by a retard from 4chan like yourself who claims to be an ex-christian? if anything the most ex-religion is islam and you can see it everywhere online, you are a fool
>>25438107>In the case of stories similar to the Bible the presence of either similarities or differences has never been a cause of concern as to the Quran's divine status. Its truth is not established on this kind of basis anymore than it is established on archaeology or Darwinian theory. That kind of criticism is simply irrelevant to Muslims who have already accepted as the foundation of their religion that "Muhammad is the Messenger of God." To put it bluntly, if the Quran says Dhul Qarnayn was a monotheist, then Dhul Qarnayn was a monotheist. And if Dhul Qarnayn is the same person as Alexander, as many Muslims have argued, then Alexander was a monotheist-- the historical record is mistaken.your iq has to be below room temperature if you don't realize how retarded this is, literally anyone can come up with a book and claim to be from God so everything else people believe or know have to be subjected to it, this is why people say that mormonism is islam for christians
>>25449926Yes it was a rather emotional post, I agree it was a foolish thing to say or think. Faith involves a devotional element that (rightfully) includes an intense loyalty as well as an entire symbolic ordering of really lived experiences, perhaps including the miraculous or visionary. No amount of theological or text criticism will disturb the faith of one who has obtained this level of practice. Certain lower levels that have not quite learned the habit of connecting experience to faith in real-time so that all natural events are understood as forms of deliberate revelation from God would be nonetheless quite vulnerable to this. Also be aware that most of those martyrs died in a context in which Islam was unknown which is fine but the situation in modern times is different, it is completely obvious that Christendom is in far worse shape than Dar al Islam, which is why modernism originated in Christendom in the first place. A good example of this is that I can have this kind of meta-analysis of faith which allows me to recognize Christian practice as authentic without ever violating my own understanding of Islam, even the lower levels of theology and creed (aqeedah we call it). You may be able to do this as well (that is, recognize that Muslims are having authentic faith and spiritual engagement with God) but you have to lean on some vague principles a la Nostra Aetate about Muslims worshiping God the Father or salvation being mysterious and unknown in nature, both of which are very clearly unsatisfactory at a certain level or lead in short order to the never-ending superiority complex of the Christians which can at best acknowledge other religions as "lesser forms" of its singularly comprehended truth in the person of Jesus. If you follow then we can have a very interesting conversation about this perhaps. Let me know if you have any questions, I promise none of this is hot air and I apologize if that smacks of haughtiness, I haven't read enough of your writing to gauge your mind and the average poster here is... well... you know...
>>25449937Dang it I was hoping you weren't a dumbass. Oh well. You can just skip my previous reply to you there is zero chance you will understand it.
>>25449937The problem with Dhul Qarnayn more deeply is that it really looks like the Quran took the story from the Syriac Alexander Romance legend. It looks like it because there are very striking parallels in the stories. If true, then the Quran plagiarized a fanfiction text about Alexander the Great being a proto-Christian monotheist, and the Quran isn't divine because Dhul Qarnayn is just Alexander the Great but we know historically that he was a polytheist. Arguing that Dhul Qarnayn was actually someone else like Cyrus the Great doesn't really solve the problem. You need to solve it but saying that the Syriac Alexander Romance legend actually post-dates Muhammad and the Quran, which is what some have claimed. It's possible the Alexander Legend was actually written around 630, which would mean it wasn't plagiarized, but then we have to believe traditional accounts and dating of the Quran. Only after that can we start to ask who Dhul Qarnayn really was.
>>25449940>Also be aware that most of those martyrs died in a context in which Islam was unknowntens of thousands of clergy and hundreds of thousands of practicing orthodox christians were killed by the bolsheviks just a century ago>Christendom is in far worse shape than Dar al Islam, which is why modernism originated in Christendom in the first place.islam got raped by modernism, the only people who make islam seem on the rise is the millions of salafi golems which are created by a protestantized version of islam (congrats for your religion being raped by the most degenerate element of christendom)
>>25449962>a Christian is analyzing IslamI truly do not care at all. Happy birthday or whatever, man.
>>25449961plagiarism didn't exist in ancient times you dang doofus
>>25450007can't tell if you're a troll or retarded
>>25450159I'm sorry but who are you and why should I care?
>>25449903The point is kharijites aren't salafi. Salafism is not a brand, a militia or political party, you don't become salafi by association or by birth or whatever you are salafi if you study the way of the salaf and follow it. They are also known as atharis, these names are only used to distinct them from those who claim to be sunnis but don't follow the Sunnah, just like sunni was used to distinct Muslims from those who curse the sahaaba and worship ahl al bayt.Who are kharijis who are referred to as the hounds of hell in a Hadith? What are their main characteristics?They do khurooj, they rebel against the rulers causing fitna and civil wars. Salafis stress the importance of submitting to them in what's not Haram as the Sunnah commands.Kharijis alienate themselves from the scholars as in Abbaas said:"I do not see one companion amongst you." addressing them. Salafis do dawah openly and in masajids stressing the importance of scholars.Kharijites do takfeer based on sins, salafis do based on creed. Salafis leave the responsibility of doing takfeer to the scholars, kharijis rule others to be kafir using formulas even though they became Muslim like a week ago. What takfeer formula do they use? Ibn Taymiyyah identified their main formula to be: if you don't rule by shari'a you're kafir and this still their main formula today and it's based on a incorrect understanding of a verse in the Qur'an. Why is it incorrect? Because it's not according to the understanding of the salaf.Based on this rule they consider every current ruler to be kafir and so is everyone participating in his system. Some go further and do takfeer of the one who doesn't do takfeer of the police or government clerk, creating a takfeer chain. Since they consider them kafir they kill them without remorse and this is another of their traits: they kill muslims first. People love to label modern kharijites Wahhabi but ibn And Al Wahhaab explicitly said he doesn't even do takfeer of a grave worshipping layman. The fact that kharijis claim to follow him and those who were greater than him is not proof for anything except them seeking to position themselves as true muslims. Salafi scholars have spoken out against revolts even against revolting against Bashar in Syria before the country entered full civil war and sunnis were being killed. They denounced bin laden in the early 90s for being a dangerous troublemaker and took his citizenship in 94 but the ignorants brushed it off like spoiled court imams criticizing a real one.The fatwa that allowed Saudi to seek help from the US is controversial and Al Albani was heavily opposed to it but he never spoke ill of those who supported this decision. It just shows that the sheikh who previously had to leave Medina university over other disagreements with established practices in the kingdom, was not interested in being part of "the salafi club". He was a seeker of the truth which isn't always clear and know the scholar's flesh is poisoned
>>25450442It doesn't matter that Ibn Taymiyya is smarter than Wahhabis. The point is that Sunni Muslims do nothing to resist imperialism. Their toughest, angriest jihadists are just useful idiots for American imperialism. On top of that Saudi Arabia built a British style clock tower to mog the Kaaba.
>>25450442Sir, the kharijites were a 7th century group widely loathed by the Muslims who became both Sunni and Shia, and repurposing their name to attack a particular group of contemporary people is not convincing or serious. You can say "such and such group are like the kharijites in this regard" but your wholesale rebranding of this designation suggests you are part of someone's deliberate public relations strategy.
>>25450677You either missed the point or you're pretending but I'll repeat: kharijite groups like Al Qaeda, isis and the rest of them are not Wahhabis, they're not engaged in jihaad and sunnis do not claim them. It's one of the oldest sects that is prophesized to reappear again and again untill they join the army of dajjal. As for why sunnis have been weak the past centuries then it's been discussed here at length. In summary, it's because rather than staying upon the way of the generations who took the world by storm, many have decided to see what Plato or some other kafir has to say about spirituality, thus ruining the greatest gift a Muslim has which is a pure creed and bringing humiliation upon themselves.War needs preparation and that starts with spiritual awakening and includes gathering weapons. Saudis have invested a lot in both, they spread the salafi call proactively and used their p3tr0d0lLarS to buy weapons. They'd love to throw their money at their own youth or other muslims to develop weapons that are comparable to American ones but not even china or russia with their billion math geniuses working for pennies have been able to compete after decades of trying, so what should they do? Screech about the evil Americans and Jews all day for the world to see?Would you care if that tower was in Ryadh or Islamabad? Makkah is a very hilly place, they had to flatten a good portion of it to build a bunch of hotels around the Ka'aba. Everybody wants a hotel where they can reach the masjid Al Haram by foot in about 10&15 minutes. That means in peak season those hotels are overbooked, why not build a huge building with hotels, restaurants and shops right at the Haram offering great views and centralize all the plumbing and electricity etc, with minimal walking distance and save space by building high. A great orientation marker for the pilgrims, you can see the tower from very far if you're approaching by taxi and who doesn't love shadows in one of the hotter places in earth? No building mogs the Ka'aba just another reason to complain.
>>25450798NTA but you're just okay with the giant tower? If you were on the committee for building this and someone said "Wait this will place the Kaaba in the shadow of the building and cast what kind of looks like devil horns on top of it from the upward pointing crescent moon" would you say "Oh well, press on!" or would you have said "That's not a good look, can we make it a little shorter or further back?"see pic:>>25441845???
>>25450736No, there are authentic narrations specifying that they (kharijis who recite the Qur'an but it doesn't enter their hearts) will reappear more than twenty times, they will join the dajjal and ibn Katheer, a student of ibn Taymiyya, made this comment on them in "al bidaya wan nihaya" centuries ago:“If they ever gained strength, they would surely corrupt the whole of the earth, Iraq and Syria (Shaam). They would not leave alone a single young boy or a young girl, nor a single man or a woman. This is because, in their view, the people have become so completely corrupted that nothing can fix them except mass slaughter. “
>>25450804No I'd definitely remove the crescent which is one of many ottoman innovations that can be ditched, a symbol of the byzantine empire I believe. Other than that I'm not a very refined person, I don't pay much attention to architecture, I haven't been inside the tower but I found it convenient to find my way and the shadow was nice too.
>>25450811>there are authentic narrations specifying that they (kharijis who recite the Qur'an but it doesn't enter their hearts) will reappear more than twenty timesI did not know this and would have to study it.I don't know if you are saying the word khawaraj is used 20 times or if somebody has gone and bundled all references to those "who recite the Qur'an but it doesn't enter their hearts" and then combined them with earlier hadith about the historical group. Not sure what is going on here. Can you give me some examples?>ibn KathirThis man lived at a time when the Kharawaj were still around. I don't think this is a comment about the latter days.>Iraq and SyriaI could see why this would be compelling in 2015 when ISIS was rampaging across Iraq and Syria but they've been thoroughly routed and basically do not exist in these lands anymore.I've already given you several hadith about the towers in Mecca being harbingers of the End which you have ignored. Now you are telling me the re-emergence of the kharijite sect is the sign of the End. I need you to give me more reference and also to explain why you are ignoring the signs of tower building.
>>25450842I couldn't ignore it if I wanted to, the prophecy is fulfilled right in front of our eyes. To make the conclusion that this clock is dajjals work or that those arabs building them must be evil, we need more evidence than evil thoughts about our brothers. Sunan Ibn Majah 174It was narrated from Ibn 'Umar that:The Messenger of Allah said: "There will emerge people who will recite the Qur'an but it will not go any deeper than their collarbones. Whenever a group of them appears, they should be cut off (i.e. killed)." Ibn 'Umar said: "I heard the Messenger of Allah say: 'Whenever a group of them appears, they should be killed' - (he said it) more than twenty times- 'until Dajjal emerges among them.'"Sahih al-Bukhari 6934Narrated Yusair bin `Amr:I asked Sahl bin Hunaif, "Did you hear the Prophet (ﷺ) saying anything about Al-Khawarij?" He said, "I heard him saying while pointing his hand towards Iraq. "There will appear in it (i.e, Iraq) some people who will recite the Qur'an but it will not go beyond their throats, and they will go out from (leave) Islam as an arrow darts through the game's body.' "
>>25450894Well now I am learning something from this discussion. It's pretty interesting. As far as I can tell the word khawaraj is not a proper noun, it means something like "sectarians." Then it came to refer to a specific group of people in the7th century (kharajites) who fought against Ali (ra) and also Muawiya, in other words they were opposed to the early Shia and also the early Sunni. So my understanding of it being a particular group confined to history is incorrect, as the word is clearly used to refer to sectarians in general. I don't know that there is any particular group of sectarians or particular means of defining them that would hold consistently across all instances of this word in the hadith literature, except that wherever they show up they are clearly the enemies of Islam. It makes sense to me there would be a proliferation of different interpretations of its meanings corresponding to what one's idea of the limits of the religion are. In other words it is probably very common to find Muslims accusing certain other Muslims of being kharijites throughout the history of this religion, particular during times of fitna. It's clear ISIS is outside of the range of any accountability to traditional Islam, that they have a partisan fervor that has made them enemies of both Sunnism and Shiism, as well as Sufism, and I have no problem labeling them as kharijites on second thought. Thanks for helping me understand some new concepts.
>>25450894>To make the conclusion that this clock is dajjals work or that those arabs building them must be evil, we need more evidence than evil thoughts about our brothers.I don't think I have done this. I am not criticizing anyone's personal piety or even any group. I am criticizing the general flow of decision making leading to its construction that appeared to be so out of touch with Islam that it accidentally fulfilled an end times prophecy and deeply upset most Muslims around the world in the process.If it wasn't an accident, even worse. It's almost like the Salafi clerics that have underwritten the Saudi government's modernism, largesse and indifference to Palestine have become the new Quarysh of a new Jahiliyyah, collecting checks off of pilgrims and deriving a position of earthly authority from control of the site of pilgrimage, and setting up shops and luxury hotels and selling perfumes, watches, zam-zam water and fine clothing to various wealthy, international people recently arrived from the airport. I mean it kind of seems that way to me, I'll be blunt. Seems like a great big bonanza to me. Would the Sahaba have built a tower like this, or made deals to sell off resources to the new Byzantines the Americans? I dunno man, I really don't think so.
>>25449771They are still fixated on it. They just can’t do it.
>>25450798Epic levels of cope. Sunnis are irrelevant. Kharijites won I guess.
>>25450934Khaariji is someone who does khurooj, to go out (against the ruler), to rebel. Khawaarij is just the Arabic plural of khaariji. It's specifically refers to the murderous takfeeri sect but can be used loosely to label anyone who's rebelling against the ruler even their spiritual opposites, the murji'a. Takfeeris despair of Allah's mercy which is why they are irrationally violent and suicidal. Murji'a feel safe from Allah's anger and therefore commit serious errors as well. They too tend to be rebellious. The sunni, salafi way is to be in the middle and stay away from paralysing fear and the delusion of false hope and they maintain order.The "the rulers only care about their belly and their dirhams and dinars" is not an original thought, it's often spread by the most hypocritical of people and it's very contagious and dangerous. Wasn't it an angry mob like that that killed the great companion, Uthman? Mobs by definition are irrational and emotional, the sahaba did not lend them their minds. The caliphate days which only lasted 30 years, are far gone, we live in the days of kings and while some are better than others, kings are not caliphs. The scholars do not control them, they can only advise them and they are not required to brief us on that. It's dangerous to assume scholars support rulers in evil misguidance without proof. It was and still is often the case with non salafi "imaams" to be lapdogs of the ruler, the foreign conqueror and the colonizers, most of them are Sufi/ash'ari/maturidi. Just like the ones who tell muslims in Russia to become shuhada in the battle over Ukraine or the ones who made sure ibn Taymiyya died in prison after he encouraged the sultan and the people to put up a fight against the ilhanids for Damascus and participated in the battle himself, destroying them and their will to ever cross the Euphrates again.The money from the pilgrims is not insignificant but the Saudi government needs to allocate oil money to maintain the Haramayn, it's a huge undertaking. I feel like they don't get enough credit for it, they're gracious hosts, generous and the level of restraint they show in the face of the entitlement and absolute lack of manners of many of the visitors is remarkable. It's great for the local economy indeed and many of the business people providing goods and services in and around the Haram aren't Saudi nationals. It's not all that luxurious either but when it comes down to it, most people want the better rated hotels and foodspots for them and their loved ones.If the crown prince wanted the life of a playboy, he shouldn't have entered politics and just enjoy the wealth as grandson of the founder. He would've probably been "studying" somewhere in a less conservative country. I believe he did his higher education in the kingdom and was supporting his father as a young man when he was mayor of the capital, he has political drive and seems exited to take on projects and do something for his country.
>>25452376Oh my. Dude please stop, you're like a chat-bot set to "imitate Saudi cleric". There is no thought or interaction or engagement going on here at all, there is just you repeating your talking points to your imaginary non-Salafi Muslim over and over and over and over and over again. It doesn't matter what I say it's just a merry-go-round of the same half dozen points>worshiping graves is shirk>the Muslims I don't like are kharijites>It is incorrect to call us wahhabis>Ibn Taymiyya is the only scholar worth studying in 1400+ years of Islamic history>That's bidaa! >SAUDI ARABIA DID NOTHING WRONG!!!
>>25452486>Exaggerates and puts words in my mouth like a child>Dude just stop?!Fine, just for the parrots in the back holding hands with LGBT and waving the Palestine flag (designed by the Brits who sold them out btw) repeating shi'i talking points.>Using the deceased as intercessors between you and Allah is major shirk.>Isis and co fit the khaariji sect not salafi even if the enemies of Islam call them Wahhabi>The title Sheikh al Islam by default refers to ibn Taymiyya, an elite scholar.>Religious innovations have led the muslims astray and are the source of their weakness>Saudi Arabia is just another Muslim country except much less retarded.If you're sunni follow the Sunnah and not the ruwaybida. Sahih Muslim 1847 bIt his been narrated through a different chain of transmitters, on the authority of Hudhaifa b. al-Yaman who said:Messenger of Allah, no doubt, we had an evil time (i. e. the days of Jahiliyya or ignorance) and God brought us a good time (i. e. Islamic period) through which we are now living Will there be a bad time after this good time? He (the Holy Prophet) said: Yes. I said: Will there be a good time after this bad time? He said: Yes. I said: Will there be a bad time after good time? He said: Yes. I said: How? Whereupon he said: There will be leaders who will not be led by my guidance and who will not adopt my ways? There will be among them men who will have the hearts of devils in the bodies of human beings. I said: What should I do. Messenger of Allah, if I (happen) to live in that time? He replied: You will listen to the Amir and carry out his orders; even if your back is flogged and your wealth is snatched, you should listen and obey.
>>25452610Cool story bro.
>>25452610>I want to give it a rest also but I do feel the need to speak...>I want to give it a rest also but I do feel the need to speak...>I want to give it a rest also but I do feel the need to speak...
>>25436346Self hatred and not valuing what our own civilization has produced instead of revolting swarthy desert dwelling orcs. Plus with Gaza and shit, pisslam is just hip these days until the abomination that is the social media consciousness latches onto something else. Plus Orphism doesn't have precise moral structure that is inherent to abrahamic religions, and leftoid leaning esoteric hipsters are abrahamists without a god.
>>25452610yo, Da'wa guy, here's your chanceget 'emgo get 'em!>>25452674
>>25452622>>25452657>>25452675So you're that ibn Arabi student? Sorry bro, I didn't mean to break your mental. I use this site just to gather my thoughts and get some feedback on 'em, not for a human connection. I realise that might've been a little selfish, I hope everything is alright. Don't know what I was expecting going into a thread on esoteric Islam but I think I've seen enough guys, thanks!
>>25452748It is not the least bit surprising to me that your motivation is to solidify the belief that you possess the singular comprehension of the Truth and are capable of defending it from all possible contraries. Ponder if, given one hundred lifetimes spent in education, if you would spend them discovering that Salafism is the one and only way again and again, or if you might in such an amount of years discover something which changes your mind.
>>25452766That's interesting. I'll have to think deep about that one. Thanks and take care!
>>25452773I would say it's been a pleasure but it has not.
So many people fooling themselves to worship a demonIs the offer to go from one room to another that appealing?
>>25436346being curious about the unknown same thing that causes white chicks to be obsessed with buddhis. >>25436351basically this>>25436494a lot of men tend to join islam because of the discipline that it provides, kinda why a lot of prisoners join.
>>25436348It's an autistic drive that botched individuals who crave certainty suffer from. You muslims do not speak for all of humanity. You are filth and you peddle garbage.
>>25438213You are deluding yourself
>>25438406>may Allah be pleased with them.autism
>>25449703only accurate post ITT
>>25452376>>25452610so basically real Islam is armchair salafism, am I understanding that correctly?
>>25454562Every muslim I interacted with, either here or abroad, was a deviant ten times worse than the "unbelievers" they always refer to in their passages seething about Christians. Muslims are either sexual deviants in that they fuck trannies, spend their paycheck on whores or outright rape and harrass women at clubs. The drug abuse is extra funny because alcohol is haram but apparently smoking bags of weed you bought from another muslim is fine. Lastly, no matter where the muslim professes himself on the piety spectrum they will always have done something illegal. This ranges from rape to random violence to dealing drugs to human trafficking to blowing up airports.It's just so bizarre. Drop the book, it's obviously not making you a better person.
>>25455056>anecdotal evidence of guy who hangs around rapists, transexuals and junkiesok bud, does this mean hispanics should drop the bible because their crime stats tied to sexual immorality, intoxicants and violence make the muslilm world look like an utopia?
>>25455367those hispanics are never preaching and proselytizing their faith though, thug muslim and dawah bros are basically identical
>>25455367How many of them suicide bomb metros full of people, blow up airports, or mow down concertgoers with AK47’s (and trucks of peace)? Any day now right?Or is it an exclusive muslim thing?
>>25434873What is the point in any of this if you have not first read Nahj Al-Balagha which is the greatest book after the Quran, or Al-Sahiffa Al-Sajjadiyya Al-Kamilah which is the greatest after those, and Kitab Al-Tawhid by Sheikh Al-Saduq which is the greatest book on Tawhid? >Praise be to Allah. He is such that senses cannot perceive Him, place cannot contain Him, eyes cannot see Him and veils cannot cover Him. He proves His eternity by the coming into existence of His creation, and (also) by originating His creation (He proves) His existence, and by their (mutual) similarity He proves that there is nothing similar to Him. He is true in His promise. He is too high to be unjust to His creatures. He stands by equity among His creation and practices justice over them in His commands. He provides evidence through the creation of things of His being from ever, through their marks of incapability of His power, and through their powerlessness against death of His eternity. He is One, but not by counting. He is everlasting without any limit. He is existent without any support. Minds admit of Him without (any activity of the) senses. Things which can be seen stand witness to Him without confronting Him. Imagination cannot encompass Him. He manifests Himself to the imagination with his help for the imagination, and refuses to be imagined by the imagination. He has made imagination the arbiter (in this matter). He is not great in the sense that volume is vast and so His body is also great. Nor is He mighty in the sense that His limits should extend to the utmost and so His frame be extensive. But He is great in position and mighty in authority.He who assigns to Him (different) conditions does not believe in His Oneness, nor does he who likens Him grasp His reality. He who illustrates Him does not signify Him. He who points at Him and imagines Him does not mean Him. Everything that is known through itself has been created, and everything that exists by virtue of other things is the effect (of a cause). He works but not with the help of instruments. He fixes measures but not with the activity of thinking. He is rich but not by acquisition.Times do not keep company with Him, and implements do not help Him. His Being precedes times. His Existence precedes non-existence and His eternity precedes beginning. By His creating the senses it is known that He has no senses. By the contraries in various matters it is known that He has no contrary, and by the similarity between things it is known that there is nothing similar to Him. He has made light the contrary of darkness, brightness that of gloom, dryness that of moisture and heat that of cold.He produces affection among inimical things. He fuses together diverse things, brings near remote things and separates things which are joined together. He is not confined by limits, nor counted by numbers. Material parts can surround things of their own kind, and organs can point out things similar to themselves
>>25457782Stop peddling this saccharine garbage
>>25436346Muslim women are hot. Especially Iranians or Jordanians
>>25457782>Praise is due to Allah whose worth cannot be described by speakers, whose bounties cannot be counted by calculators and whose claim (to obedience) cannot be satisfied by those who attempt to do so, whom the height of intellectual courage cannot appreciate, and the divings of understanding cannot reach; He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed. He brought forth creation through His Omnipotence, dispersed winds through His Compassion, and made firm the shaking earth with rocks.>The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute.>Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognises His like, and whoever recognises His like regards Him two; and whoever regards Him as two recognises parts for Him; and whoever recognises parts for Him mistook Him; and whoever mistook Him pointed at Him; and whoever pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and whoever admitted limitations for Him numbered Him. Whoever said: ‘In what is He?’, held that He is contained; and whoever said: ‘On what is He?’, held He is not on something else.>He is a Being, but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation of movements and instruments. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence.>He initiated creation most initially and commenced it originally, without undergoing reflection, without making use of any experiment, without innovating any movement, and without experiencing any aspiration of mind. He allotted all things their times, put together their variations gave them their properties, and determined their features knowing them before creating them, realising fully their limits and confines and appreciating their propensities and intricacies.
>>25444113In general, Corbin is not only faithful to the authors he presents but even tends to downplay their universalist and esoteric aspects. If Islam today lacks sects exhibiting this tendency, it is largely due to its intellectual decline over the past millennium; in truth, there is no reason to regard mainstream Sunni/Twelver Islam as more legitimate than, for instance, 10th century Ismailism.
>>25441812This is fucking amazing holy shit finally someone from the khassa alawites speaks out
>>25444113>but I think he's good and comes closer to the truth of what the text says than the perennialists who just turn everything into Advaita.This is a strawman, the Traditionalist School members don't equate Sufism with Advaita, they just note the metaphysical parallels between the two (such as God being ultimately the only real existent) while also noting their respective differences.
Piss
>>25458715I like Corbin but this is a retarded take.
>>25461031> the Traditionalist School members don't equate Sufism with Advaita, they just note the metaphysical parallels between the twothat's equating>while also noting their respective differences.but the differences are merely 'exoteric', which is why Guenon could say "conversion" isn't real, it's all the same
>>25457782The problem with Shi'ism is that it's logical conclusion is that Islam was corrupted. It's hard to take seriously the claim that Islam and the Quran are true and final, but immediately after the death of Muhammad the religion gets usurped by the bad guys. How does is this less of a corruption than Judaism or Christianity?
>>25461498>that's equatingWrong, learn to speak English properly before replying to me again. The definition of 'equating' is "consider (one thing) to be the same as or equivalent to another". Noting parallels between A & B is not saying they are the same or equivalent. >but the differences are merely 'exoteric', which is why Guenon could say "conversion" isn't real, it's all the sameAlso wrong, you either didn't read Guenon or you were too stupid to understand him (many such cases).Guenon never once says that all differences are only at the exoteric level. He rather explains that the same primordial metaphysical truth is explained or approached by each tradition in its own idiosyncratic way that fits its particular history, circumstances, era, culture etc, just as the same math equation can be rendered in both geometry and algebra; then, within these particular configurations which are adapted to each religion, the esoteric aspect of that religion is what reveals that deeper truth and connects one to it through spiritual realization. The esotericisms of each religion naturally get closer to each other as they approach this final apex or summit, as is to be expected, but even at the level of esoteric instruction/doctrine it is still an adaptation of a supra-formal truth to the forms and theology etc of that particular religion.
>>25461876empty pilpul, the fact that you needed to type all that is a testament to perennialist fragility
>>25462088>empty pilpulWrong, I simply pointed out that:1) you can't even speak English properly and your response was based on misunderstanding what a word meant2) Your strawman was based on incorrectly describing Guenon as holding there is no difference at the esoteric level, whereas he holds that even esoteric religious doctrine is still at the level of a particular adaptation of a primordial supra-formal truth.
>>25434873>esoteric intellectual side of IslamIs this some sort of elaborate joke? Camel humping retard religion has none of that. >>25435139>(PBUH)Piss be upon him indeed.
