I'm looking forward Fukuyama's memoir. Will be very interesting to read an elder intellectual becoming disillusioned with the very system he spent his life trying to uphold
Does anybody else GET Fukuyama, and UNDERSTAND The End Of History, but still dislikes/disagrees with him anyway?I understand his thesis perfectly well, but as a sincere Christian I can't agree with it. I don't buy the Hegelian argument that the "end of history" is the full flowering of individual liberty and self-actualization. The natural end, the telos, the Point of history, is to unite all souls to Christ.To me, Fukuyama's argument is fundamentally at odds with the Gospel and the Mission of the Church. And I think the collapse in Christian adherence in the West in the "liberal" era of the last 80 years is great evidence to support my assertions. What Fukuyama wants is incompatible with Christianity. I'd even go so far as to say it is Antichrist.
>>25439403There is no possible way that liberal democracy is going to survive the coming tides of AI, transhumanism, demographic collapse and right-wing oligarch capture of the West. It's simply not happening, because liberalism has no safeguards against these forces. It directly produces all of them.
>>25439337hiiii there, francis is it? great, great [crystal waters' 'gypsy woman' starts playing] ... so if you stand over there in front of the lights ... just perfect ... so we were thinking you could put your hand to your chin, all thoughtful you know - that's it - and look like you're really pondering ... *snap* *snap* oh gorgeous, exactly, like you're pondering some really weighty notion *snap* *snap* beautiful, francis, beautiful, keep it going, work it honey, like you're meditating the historical destiny of civilisation *snap* *snap* *snap*
I can't imagine this guy lives a very interesting life. Unlike Kojève.
the guy is a one hit wonder everything else he wrote was mid as hell why would i want to read his memoir
Used to think fukuyama was wrong, but after trump leaves we will just return to a end of history politics of boring neocons vs boring neoliberals
>>25439867That’s currently what it’s like with Trump now anyways. Every MAGAtard is just a neocon again.
It ain't over till its over
>>25440069I'm not a neocon (at least not since I was in middle school) but what exactly is the hatred towards them aside from their opponents just blatantly hating Jewish people? Sure, pointless foreign wars are gay and retarded but I think the only reason people hate Neoconservatives is because they're massive hebephilies and not for anything that has anything to do with the actual mechanics of international law. It just goes back to one or two solitary things 1. Neoconservatives love jews so they're bad 2. They're also bad because heckin Fundamentalists (which most of thek are) won't let me engage in gay sex and abort my kids.
nowadays he is just endlessly complaining about trump, on youtube, oh wait, we should separate that from his scholarship like we do with all other authors on /lit/
The end of history is essentially the culture's utopia. We regain human agency by oppressing lower civilizations.
>>25440069Well, there is that schism emerging with Tucker Carlson trying to start his own party for the populist/nationalist wing. He has MTG and Thomas Massie (who is traditionally more of a libertarian, which will create some policy conflict down the line if they ever get close to governance) on board. Might not get anywhere but that's something to watch and is a clear product of the shifts in the Trump era.>>25440081They're imperialists who seek to use the US military and state coercion to enforce American hegemony globally, so at the least its clear why the left hates them
>>25440081Are you kidding me? Neoconservatism is the imperial branch of Liberalism. It speaks in a language of bombs and planes in foreign countries instead of pride parades, but it drops those bombs for the sake of the pride parade regardless. It’s still just libshittery. Hence why Trump will not accomplish anything by the time he leaves. The same defects produced by liberalism are still happening all over the West but neocons shift our attention towards international Jewry, foreign policy and hyperfinance instead. If you are a neocon, you are a libtard. You will not achieve anything in the end besides making the West just as gay, retarded and brown, but with more war debt too.
>>25440098tucker is a meme and his party wont even make it to 2028. at most it'll be another grift of tucker's used to funnel people into the duginist/kremlin and islamic propaganda pipeline
>>25440081>be neocons>be war mongers who are always starting pointless wars in the middle east>put israels interests before americas>get discreteted by the bush era when they start two pointless wars and crash the economy"oh my gaw your just anti semitic"
>>25440098tucker is a cia plant, he is clearly starting a third party to siphon off all the groypers, dissident right, far right to cleanse the gop of them, whole thing is a psyop
>>25439867idk dude, the neoliberals are being pressured out of the democrats right now by the dsa. hence all the kvetching in the media and from gen x/boomer dems. you think youre going back to pre oct 7 sentiment on israel that easily? good luck. i see normalfags and 90 iq broccoli haired zoomers repeating tropes from 2009 stormfront without flinching. "zog" theories are just par for the course in your average reddit or tiktok comment section. how do you put that genie back in the bottle? or the right wing becoming disillusioned with big business and the iran war when those were traditionally things they unquestioningly supported?
>>25439448kek, very funny
>>25440117im from the future, this is how its going to go down>dsa takes over democrat party, pushing out moderets>tuckers new party siphons off the retard far right>post trump GOP rebrands as "the adults in the room", siphoning off centrists, independents, and moderates >2028 is vance/rubio vs AOC, aoc loses in a landslide>gop and dnc return to being boring neoliberals and neoconsthe only thing preventing normie libtards from going republican is trump, but trump will be gone in 2028.
>>25440117The DSA is theatre. Bill Maher whining about it is irrelevant. You are about to witness the usual process of recuperation in the Debordian sense of the term and it is already underway. The DSA is already integrated into the party: AOC, Zohran, Bernie Sanders, and his political heirs, the "dirtbag left" figures serve as their social media influencers, they are well aware that online opinion is radicalizing against Israel. They know that wealth inequality is an issue they can no longer sweep under the rug without risking a major social explosion. So, they dangle a little carrot, an illusion of control, in your face, and then once elected, they slot right into the machine. They have to negotiate in back room deals, build coalitions (formal or otherwise), and make concessions to get legislation passed. Back in France, when Mitterrand won in 1981, people believed they could sweep away the old order, put an end to Giscard’s disastrous neoliberalism, and implement a radical revolutionary program born in the first of May 68. The result? By 1983, massive austerity had taken hold, he followed the right wing policy, and the dream was dead. The same thing will happen to you. You can't work within the machine of capital, entryism is a dead end.
>>25440117My counter point would be that rampant zionism is not in fact in alignment with the end of history. Israel is a nationalist (and kind of theocratic) nation, hardly the liberal democracy the end of history is supposed to turn everything into. And political corruption (like stuff involving the israel lobby) is not proper free market capitalism. The censorship targeted at anyone pointing these issues out is also not exactly meeting the criteria for liberal freedom. If the end of history will be the democratic liberal capitalist world order Fukuyama predicts then zionism and the political corruption and nepotism associated with it will by necessity be expunged sooner or later. The neoliberals will be forced to reform or be broken by commies just like the Tsar and the Qing dynasty where. But usually in democracies things dont get so drastic, reform is likely, whether they like it or not
>>25440124I doubt AOC will win the primaries, she stuck me as genuinely retarded. Or at least when I last listened to her talk ~5 years ago when she played amongus with the Canadian NDP leader, He seemed smart/educated next to her lmao. I guess I should be fair and assume she has gotten smarter since then..My schizo theory is they are going to run Hunter Biden. In his Fuentes interview he was clearly trying to do the "respectable adult in the room" bit. Felt like a trial run for how well he can manage talking against right wing talking points. And as a Canadian I can tell you doing crack helps your political odds, not hurt them. Plus statistically, only Bidens have a 100% success rate against Trumpian politics. The argument is dumb, but I think the nerds running politics cant help but think like that.
>>25440165 Interesting. that makes sense. It is easy to intrinsically link Israel to the Western neoliberal system, given the support it has historically received from it, but when you lay it out like that it makes a lot of sense as the Israeli state is primarily nationalist and reflective of a settler colonial dynamic rather than a true liberal democracy. Perhaps this prevailing shift towards the anti-Israeli stance and skepticism of their societal system is indicative of an evolution towards liberal humanist thinking when you put it like that
>>25440173oh yeah they're cooking something up with hunter definitely. it all feels too calculated with the "look how cool and relatable and EDGY he is" thing theyre doing
The Chinese system is refuting the US in real time by proving to be more efficient and resilient
>>25440165Liberalism is shooting itself in the foot by supporting Israel so fucking hard. Not only because of the brazen hypocrisy of supporting a state like Israel which is fairly illiberal and hyper-nationalist, but also because Israel is going to capitalize on this more and more in the future. We're symbiotically attached to a state and ethnic group that is willing to abandon liberal democracy to protect itself. When public opinion turns against Israel in the future to the point where pro-Israeli politicians can't win elections in the West, Israel is going to embrace its status as an isolated pariah. It's going to position itself as the arrogant "I told you so" country that claims to be the final rational actor left in the world while the West self-immolates. In the near future Jews will not hesitate to sabotage the West in revenge for ceasing to prioritize Israel's interests. The angle is going to be >You stupid white people should have listened to us! Now Muslims are conquering the west and it's all your fault for not invading Iran! you get what you deserve now! Zionism was your last hope!People like Gad Saad are already setting the stage for this new consensus and he has the ear of right-wing elites like Elon Musk. What happens to the liberal West when Israel -- the country that propagates itself as the "center of Western civilization" and is upheld as such by the global elite -- becomes a technocratic Kahanist fascist state and actually finds success being one? It's so fucking absurd how much of a blind spot Israel is for liberals
>>25439337I hope he addresses his book posthuman future and progression of trans/posthumanism in this.
>>25439403Same here desu. It's infuriating that nobody seems to understand his actual thesis -- that societal development follows recognition and that neoliberalism uniquely satisfies such condition. >>25439867I doubt it. Neoliberalism was predicated on a shared belief in equality under international law. Once the U.S. fucked it up and now that China is rising again, it's clear that we're going to go back to a more nationalist way of seeing things, albeit on a continental level rather than on a national level. This will very likely go in hand with the continued re-emergence of leftists movement predicated on poor economic performance, which is another major threat that neolibs will have to face too.>>25440124>post trump GOP rebrands as "the adults in the room", siphoning off centrists, independents, and moderatesThere is 0% chance that is happening. The average centrist sees the Republicans as Hitler now. The whole party doesn't even have enough "moderates" nowadays to even pretend to go back to their original roots.
>>25440753I'm amazed people still think there's ever going to be a "return to normal" in the United States. That didn't just die in 2016, that died all the way back in 2008. I'd even argue it might have died all the way back in 2001.Trump is a symptom, not a cause, of what's been happening for a quarter century, and I expect things to accelerate from here. "No brakes on the Trump Train" isn't actually a joke.
>>25439867Neoliberalism is done. Trump won in 2016 due to its failures. Even the whole "we're gonna build a wall and Mexico is going to pay for it," was actually indirectly downstream of the 1994 Mexican corn shortage. Biden continued most policies the first Trump administration put in place to restrict trade and even expanded the break from neoliberalism with things like the CHIPS Act. Trump's second term has obviously ramped this up with the tariffs and such. What has not received as much attention are huge bipartisan shifts in maritime policy. This is a complete break from the obsession with comparative advantage, rigid adherence to letting the most "efficient" handle it, and even the whole flag of convenience system the US set up. Anyone who thinks the future is neoliberal or that "Trumpian" policy is passing fad had not been paying attention.
>>25440753>that societal development follows recognition and that neoliberalism uniquely satisfies such condition.Okay and this is an incorrect thesis. Liberalism doesn't uniquely satisfy our desire for recognition. People are okay with any material comfort and liberal states just happened to have the most since they did the industrial revolution before everyone.
>>25440272I just don't like them because they aren't white>>25440110I don't vote anymore anyways. the entire things needs leveled.
>>25440081It is jewish.https://www.kevinmacdonald.net/neoconservatism.pdf
>>25440098This is just the end of the current Sixth Party System and the beginning of the Seventh. I swear no one actually studies American history.
>>25439412>right-wing oligarch capture of the westGrow up, you fucking faggot. And don't forget your booster shot, you shit it eating little piglet.
>>25441105Thiel is that you?
>>25441105It's worth pointing out that some of the golden ages of humanity have existed in times and places that had "oligarch capture." Having an aristocracy didn't prevent golden ages in other times and places in the past, nor did it prevent things from getting better for the average person.I think liberal-democracy-boosters are simply ahistorical, and I might arguably include Fukuyama himself in that. Hell, modern China has proven that things can get better for the average person in a country run by a de facto aristocracy (the CCP is China's landed gentry).It's not THAT an oligarchy may come to exist that's the problem, it's the oligarchs you get, the aristocrats you wind up with. The modern West's problem is that our current aristocrats are really shitty. It's a people problem, not a system-of-government problem.
>>25441297Yes, no one would mind if today's oligarchs were Andrew Carnegies but we're stuck with Adelson, Musk, Thiel, etc. Elon can't even stop his own son from trooning out and we're supposed to expect him to save humanity or some shit?
>>25441297Man, you are going to be so disappointed when antitrust legislation finally starts getting enforced again.
>>25441297>The modern West's problem is that our current aristocrats are really shitty. It's a people problem, not a system-of-government problem.Our current aristocrats are shitty precisely because the current form of liberal democracy created the conditions for the decay of their class. If it's individual welfare that is the ultimate arbiter of societal well-being, then it tends to produce elites who will tend to be crass materialists and/or cold technocrats in terms of their worldview. Earlier generations of liberal democratic elites weren't as shitty because they had social and cultural capital from past eras to coast on, but now that reserve has been depleted.
>>25440802> What has not received as much attention are huge bipartisan shifts in maritime policy.Quick rundown?
>>25441318Anon, I waited more than ten years for things to get "back to normal." I voted for the Democrats in 2006 and Obama in 2008, believing it would get things "back to normal." I've given it up. Normal's not coming back. The Age of the Bureaucrat is over. The End of History has ended. We are once more in a period of time when Grand Events happen.At this point I've just got my surf board out and I'm going to ride the waves, see where I end up. Who knows, it might be cool.
>>25441478Not enforcing antitrust legislation has been the norm for the past 40+ years. "Right wing oligarchs" are only able to exist because a specific band of market conditions resulting from trade liberalization, deregulation, weak worker protections, immigration, flaccid regulatory bodies, and the like typically associated with neoliberalism. Actual enforcement of laws already on the books and steeper penalties for violations would cripple their ambitions. By the way, all of this has already happened before. There's nothing really all that special about the specific moment we're living in when put in the context of wider American history besides technology and how much we are exposed to non European foreigners. Expect similar things to be done in response to the problems we've had in days past.
>>25439824Kek. Unlike Sir Richard Francis Burton..
>democracy is a failed system because sparta won the peloponnesian war!
>>25440117I do find it somewhat funny that the far left is now saying things about Jews that Neo-Nazi groups have been saying for decades. If you look in a lot of circles like that now, they’re doing /pol/-tier shit where they’re going back to media from the 90’s and 2000’s and pointing out how often Israel is mentioned. It’s honestly comical how quickly they turned around post-October 7th.
>>25441616I mean can you blame them, ZOG is utterly undeniable at this point
>>25441318>Mein fuhrer... the government... the government has been captured by corporations, we can't enforce any antitrust legislation anymore
>>25441513You have more faith in "the good old USA" than I think it deserves, at this point.
>>25441661Interesting to consider where it all goes from here. The Curse of the 8th Decade beckons. Does Israel last past 2028?In a general way the entire Zionist enterprise, from top to bottom, feels unsustainable. All of it feels like a rabid dog to me right now. And while the rabid dog is roaming around, foaming at the mouth and ready to bite, you have to fear him.But sooner or later the rabies kills the dog.
>>25439867You would hope that a return to normalcy would be possible, but with the state of the political discourse right now I can't see that being the case. The rise of social media and the ability for anyone to become a political commentator caused a significant degradation in the public discourse. The average podcast listener has no appetite for careful intellectual conversation; he wants gossip that stimulates him on an emotional level, the more salacious the better. This has led to the rise of unintelligent grifters, conspiratards, and slopulists such as Candace Owens & Tucker Carlson, or the so-called "dirtbag left". It has also left a wide-open gap for intelligent but machiavellian actors such as Nick Fuentes, who seek power by rallying the herd through the force of their charisma.These actors have no problem pushing lies and untruths, so long as it incenses the public against the liberal "establishment", which, for all of its flaws, has done a decent job of governing the past few decades.The Jeffery Epstein case is a prime example. In reality it was a case of a man who, like any virile and mentally healthy human male, was attracted to post-pubescent, nubile, young women between the ages of 16-20, perfectly legal in most European states. It was twisted into a tale of "sex trafficking", "blackmail", and "pedophilia" by the envious, self-righteous mob and their cadre of YouTube shepherds.Another example -- it is taken as given, by both the left and right, that housing prices are "out of control" and that "our parents' generation" lived an easy life compared to us. But when we control for the drastic decrease in mortgage rates, the increased average square-footage of housing, and the decrease in average household size (leading to an increased square-footage per person), we can see that housing prices, along with everything else, have drastically fallen, and that we live a life of luxury compared to the generations of the past. This is without even mentioning that renting and investing in stocks produces greater returns than owning a house.This then leads to the support of economically destructive and illiberal policies such as protectionism and the desire to "revitalise manufacturing", with the imagined view that working in a steel factory like third world slaves is somehow better for Americans than working in an air-conditioned office.The only hope left is that the so-called "deep state" takes control of the government and puts in place sensible policies, while allowing the seething masses to get their dose of vengeful catharsis through the pantomime of electoral politics. So far though, this supposed "deep state" has yet to show its vaunted power, probably because it doesn't exist.
>>25441735The CIA is the most verminously evil organization to exist in at least 100 years. I hope they get fucked six ways from Sunday. I hope the whole Deep State does. God hates them and Christ is King. The Church always gets the last laugh. Remember South America, bitches? Because Rome does.
>>25441753Your Church just follows whoever is in power at the time. First you were ultratrads burning people alive for heresies like ISIS, now you're liberal boomers talking about how the death penalty is evil because it doesn't create 'spaces of love and dialogue'
>>25441763Well that's why we have to deal with the Americans.What makes you think that isn't underway? What do you think "postliberalism" actually is? The US is a big buffalo that's gonna be brought down.
>>25441735Wonderfully deranged post.
>>25441735>The Jeffery Epstein case is a prime example. In reality it was a case of a man who, like any virile and mentally healthy human male, was attracted to post-pubescent, nubile, young women between the ages of 16-20, perfectly legal in most European states. It was twisted into a tale of "sex trafficking", "blackmail", and "pedophilia" by the envious, self-righteous mob and their cadre of YouTube shepherds.Either effort troll post or evil retard. KYS either wayhttps://www.dropsitenews.com/s/epstein-and-israel
ITT
>>25441838>In order for my Church which claims to be the infallible voice of God on earth to uphold the morality it claims to be eternally true, we need to defeat the US!
>>25441578kek. It does feel like people are tying the end of history too much to the USA. My understanding of Fukuyama is its more a statistical thing, where the liberal system is simply more efficient and functional than all other systems and therefore in a long enough time span we can expect, on average, to see more and more democracies for longer periods of time showing up and that at this point the ideas of liberalism are too wide spread to ever fully put the genie back in the bottle. Nothing about it makes a hard claim we cant have speed bumps, even big ones, from time to time just that.The biggest flaw I think, and he does acknowledge this either in End of History or one of his later ones that technology is a wild card in this
>>25441279No, it's Albert Burla. Now don't forget your eighteenth booster, you sorry excuse for cattle, and fucking thank me for it. Brought to you by Pfizer.
>>25441685Have you considered that you were early to noticing these problems and that the only reason nothing happened was because the wider public wasn't capable of seeing where they were going? So many get so cynical after years of seeing normal people not take the warnings seriously. Most people need to feel the flame a bit before pulling their hand away.
>>25441698This is where we go next in regards to ZOG >>25440717
i think it will be interesting ti read how he was able to make a living as an academic despite being wrong about everything all the time.Briefly met him 15 years ago. Really nice guy. solid handshake.
>>25441105technofascist goy enslavement rapeworld wouldn't just force you to get vaxxed, they'd stick you with whatever mystery chemicals dupont brewed up for gain of function goyim torture
>>25439448lol
the future is the dialectic between klaus schwab great reset, chinese totalitarianism and peter thiel technofeudalism
how can anybody read into the state of things past and present and still not understand that benevolent authoritarianism has won against opposing systems that are biased towards less authoritarianism practically every single time?>>25441513this is a great post because it just drops the hammerhead on the nail like a nuclear bombi've seen so many obviously uninformed people argue for more freedom (they never say what kind) and deregulation in general because i guess they've been taught that more government control means that the country will turn into an evil dictatorship like v for vendetta or something, but in reality those things that those people argue for have already been put into practice for decades but only for capitalists and the quality of life has been dropping along with it, with the only thing reversing that trend being the federal/state government stepping in to put a stop to the corporate profiteers by forcing them to adhere to the laws that they've been circumventing the entire timethere's too high a number of people today who look at a place like china and criticise it for its strict governmental managerialism while detaching that from its successes but then they'll turn around and say that america's golden age was in the middle to late 20th century, without realising that was a direct result of those exact same governmental managerialist decisions - the same goes for france during trente glorieuses and basically all the other major countries after the second world warit shouldn't be difficult for people to realise that a government's true priorities results in better outcomes for that thing so it stands to reason that they should prioritise the body politic and not just corporations but when you've had decades of propaganda, here we are
>>25443580It is interesting that both the nations and time periods you mentioned featured individuals with the power of kings. The US Presidency after World War 2 was powerful in a way that it hasn't become again until just recently; it lost a lot of juice after Watergate and Vietnam. Meanwhile, the Trent Glorieuses had de Gaulle ruling France as practically a dictator.It's almost like, when it comes to the best government for a nation-state, no king is better than a bad king, but a good king is better than no king.
>>25440117>>25441616Antizionism, not antisemitism.The people you are describing aren't antisemitic in any way. It has been the orthodox view on the far left to be against Israel for over 60 years but now with the undeniable genocide in Gaza it has been mainstreamed. Those of them who are talking about "ZOG" are probably just dumb and most likely non-white and don't care about using terms with antisemitic origins. If you talked to them you'd see that to them the problem isn't the Jews but the "Zionists".
>>25443662Honestly, the real root of the problem is that they equate Jews with white people. Israel hate for that sort is just a subset of anti-white hatred, almost none of them hate Jews for the right reasons, nor likely even know about the Jewish Question.But, I don't know, if it gets the job done, am I gonna look a gift horse in the mouth?
>>25443580This is why post hitler, schmittian national socialism is the only way forward. The state must be brought back in against the utterly ruinous dictatorship of capital.
>>25443662>the problem isn't the Jews but the "Zionists".this is just another way of saying jews + the relatively small amount of brainwashed christian zionists that they're paying off
>>25443827Hardly anyone on the left has a problem with Jews who disavow Israel.
The only stable systems I see in the world today are Islamism (Afghanistan, Pakistan, Mali, etc.) and Israel. Demographically, that’s it, everyone else is in a terminal decline.
>>25443882>islam>stableyeah, being at constant war and terror is soooo stable
>>25443882Modern Israel is a fascist state so you're basically saying >>25443717 is right.Though their stability might be a bit overrated, I've heard their economy is in the shitter.
>>25443912Modern Canada, Australia, Britain, etc. are also Fascist states, did you know? And not in the way the crybaby fascist "antifa" faggots claim.
>>25443600>It's almost like, when it comes to the best government for a nation-state, no king is better than a bad king, but a good king is better than no king.it really is funny when the undisputable peak of every nation on earth has been under a strong benevolent ruler, yet people today still believe in leaving politics essentially up to untrained strangers, isn't it?
>>25443882>only stable countries are those that breed past stability and openly murder people that don't worship their idols while sacrificing their own people in terrorismwhy do god be like this?
>>25443662It's the jews, retard. It's always been the jews. Israel disn't exist in the middle ages, yet the jews opened the gates of Toledo.
>>25440802>>25441478Seriously, it’s beyond absurd how many people still think that Trump merely represents a storm to be weathered. That was the exact mindset from 2017-2021 and it was decisively proven wrong when he won again in 2024. Even if his rule ends in failure (which it already has at this point) it doesn’t matter. He changed the game forever. When you have the wealthiest people in the world like Elon Musk adopt the same political views as Anders Breivik, Pandora’s box has been opened and it can’t be closed. The right-wing is currently in a spiral of self-victimizing neuroticism, and they have total power in America. Now imagine how deranged they’re going to get after Trump is gone. Everything is going to get worse and worse — Zionists will become more deranged, rightists will push for ethnic cleansing in the West, Western leftists will align more with China as its power grows, AI will threaten liberal values once eugenics and transhumanism makes a return, etc.
>>25442781Interesting. Each element borrows from another >Western elites in WEF, EU, American Democrats look with envy at China’s social credit and digital censorship infrastructure, attempting to import these "soft" control mechanisms under the guise of "combating disinformation" and ensuring "security.">They want a hyper-regulated, frictionless, controllable global consumer zone, managed by international NGOs, central banks, and corporate boards, where everyone is held accountable and the system is always a few steps ahead by documenting, cataloging, and monitoring its subjects, while also maintaining the market>Silicon Valley's "free" ethos colliding with the state to preserve competitive advantages - Palantir, XAI, etc defense-sector startups developing AI tools used by both the Western managerial state and private security apparatuses to monitor and control populations. Very Foucault>Thiel/NRx vision - traditional nation-state dissolves, world is carved up into private digital fiefdoms run by tech oligarchs. Democracy itself incompatible with freedom and technological progress. Government should be run like a private corporation owned by a CEO/Monarch, aristocracy of elite decision makers, underclass reduced to serfdom or wo>They offer the Western elites the tools, the "free" ethos of classical liberalism and Silicon Valley utopianism negated in the synthesis. The opposite pole, China, provides the mechanisms for digital panopticon and state dominance>China embraces capital accumulation, Dengism itself a result of dialectic, the state-backed monopoly like Tencent/Huawei, corporate control, technological infrastructure control, state control synthesized>Absolute subordination of capital and the individual to the Party-State. A hyper-disciplined, technologically advanced ethno-state that harnesses market mechanisms for industrial scale, but maintains absolute political monopoly over civil society and digital infrastructure.>For Thiel - the corporation becomes the sovereign. For WEF/EU - the bureaucracy is the sovereign. For China - the party is the sovereign. The synthesis: corporate, bureaucracy, state become one>Whether the sovereign is the bureaucrat (Davos/Brussels/Washington), the CEO/Oligarch (Silicon Valley/NRx), or the commissar (Beijing), the end state is identical. There's no liberation or Absolute or utopia coming in our current world. The end game is slavery inside a high-tech, cybernetic, post-democratic apparatus regardless of victor. The entire game is rigged.
>>25440717>In the near futureBro did you miss last week in Spain
>>25439337Europe used to be embroiled in wars every twenty years that cost millions of lives and now today the only major world conflicts are basically a border dispute between a former province and its ex-ruler and also the Hamas invasion of Israel that instantly was repelled. Can we really say liberalism failed? Maybe we are all CCP shills for Beijing here on lit.
>>25445560Europe is in jeopardy since France will likely elect Le Pen in a few months. If France and/or Germany shift towards a Eurosceptic government, a lot of things would change in that regard. The EU could handle Italy or backwaters like Hungary, Bulgaria, Slovakia having Russian bootlickers in charge, but once France falls all bets are off.
>>25445577Perhaps. But it does not refute that the liberal democratic government promoted by the EU had helped prevent warfare on the continent, and that this system has generated the most shared prosperity, which is what Fukuyama's thesis was. It was never about "all societies will turn into liberal democracies forever and thats a wrap folks", but that societies will strive towards a liberal democratic system as that is the system that encourages individual human flourishing, and the system most conducive to peace and prosperity. Post-Maastricht, the primary conflicts have all occurred in non-EU nations like Bosnia/Serbia or Ukraine. The EU is probably the only reason places like Moldova or North Macedonia are not currently being invaded as part of a border dispute. Even if the EU were to fall or a rogue fascist government triggers a set of dominoes to destabilize it, it will not wash away the track record of peace we have seen in the EU.
>>25445577Fukuyama sees the nationalist resurgence as the expression of the "last man" (materially comfortable but spiritually empty) experiencing a crisis of thymos (the term he uses - think a lack of recognition by the system), not a refutation of liberalism. It doesn't challenge the core thesis as populism ultimately does not offer a coherent, universally appealing alternative model of governance or fulfillment, it lacks a rational basis or foundation beyond grievances of the moment. It's capricious and built on whims of the demagogue, the masses are easily influenced, so their desires used to justify populist policy are often not truly their own. Even if liberal democracy is the end point, liberal democracies can decay and backslide when they fail to provide their citizens with a sense of shared community and purpose. A plant must continue to be watered and tended to as it starts to grow. Trump's presence or nationalist shifts in the EU will careen the direction of progression towards the liberal realization, but it does not mean a superior political system has been discovered to replace liberalism, and it remains the system that enables the greatest amount of opportunity and dignity for the individual, even if at times they may feel it is inadequate or grasp for more, the alternatives always fall short.
>>25440717Anglo-American Liberalism cannot divorce itself from philosemitism. The whole political project is infiltrated from the top (look at donors, and Biden cabinet ethnic composition), and the bottom(picrel: the retarded truebeliever footmen)
>>25445577>Europe is in jeopardy since France will likely elect Le Pen in a few months.This is one of the stupidest sentences I've read on the entire website over the past five years or so. I've taken a screenshot and saved it in the folder of stupidity. To be absolutely clear, the extreme stupidity of the sentiment consists not in the likelihood of Le Pen's election, but in the implication that if Le Pen is elected, that this will be bad for Europe.
>>25445577Europe survived the UK leaving, they could handle France. France wouldn't leave the EU regardless. If anything the rest of the EU is shifting further right on immigration. If the Le Pen government were to get cozy with Russia then they would be overruled on that, EU is not going to fall apart at all. You're stuck in the 2016 mindset, nobody wants to leave the EU.
>>25445608>and it remains the system that enables the greatest amount of opportunity and dignity for the individualThis is simply not true if you have a God-centered view of reality. Liberalism is a distraction from focus on God since it's entirely self-serving and navel-gazing. Hence >>25439403 's point that Liberalism is only the proper Telos of History if you assume an atheistic universe.
>>25439403>as a sincere Christian I can't agree with it.The only position dumber than his.
>>25444696>When you have the wealthiest people in the world like Elon Musk adopt the same political views as Anders Breivikit's strange that people say that individuals like musk are fascists but then musk will turn around and import millions of indians to undercut local american labour poweri'll have to look into it more but i can't recall any fascists ever doing anything like thatmaybe this is the new type of political system i heard about years ago
>>25444059Has there ever been a state that wasn't fascist to you
>>25445641>Anglo-American Liberalism cannot divorce itself from philosemitismcromwell is one of the worst men that britain has ever produced
>>25444826This whole thing is missing the most dangerous and fastest growing global force: Islamism. Sunni Islamists are in track to dominate the Middle East and West Africa (and make serious inroads into Europe). West Africa will be the biggest region in the world by the end of the century in terms of population. My prediction is that the future will see a Cold War II between Marxism-Leninism (under China) and Sunni Islamism.
>>25445577>implying Le Pen isn't a neoliberal France need another De Gaulle
>>25445830Islamism is just a Gulf influence op to have fifth columns in democratic states and if this Iran thing continues they'll all go bankrupt and the funding for Islamism will dry up and the madrassas will shrivel on the vine
>>25445875This is a cope, the Islamist ecosystem is self-sustaining. If anything they oppose the Gulf States for being too moderate
>>25444826very interesting post
>>25445881Africans have no money, though, and money is key to fighing modern warfare. What are a bunch of Subsaharan salafists gonna do against a drone swarm?
>>25445830There can't possibly be a Cold War involving Sunni Islamism because there is not one Muslim state in the world that exercises any serious power that threatens China or the West. Iran is considered the biggest threat by the global elite and it's a poor, crippled Shiite state full of atheists.
>>25445608His faith in liberalism's superiority has not been deterred, but in faith in the West being able to capitalize on it has. For some reason, none of these liberals are capable of acknowledging that this "backsliding" of liberal democracy with these schizo politics of resentment are direct consequences of liberalism. Instead, they frame them as an attack on liberalism. For Fukuyama it's always "the Republican Party and far-left have gone mad" and never "liberalism has driven its people to madness"
>>25445940>>25445881>>25445875>>25445830it sounds like you guys have just figured out that the chinese system is going to dominate the world without opposition in the coming decades
>>25445942> there is not one Muslim state in the world that exercises any serious power that threatens China or the WestSaudi Arabia, Qatar and to a lesser degree Turkey and Pakistan do
>>25445966We'll see. The meme about the Chinese falling apart at the last minute just when they're on the cusp of victory doesn't exist for no reason.Come to think of it, that meme also exists for Jews, and that one is ALSO based on actual history.
>>25445608>Fukuyama sees the nationalist resurgence as the expression of the "last man" (materially comfortable but spiritually empty) experiencing a crisis of thymos (the term he uses - think a lack of recognition by the system), not a refutation of liberalismFukuyamas thesis, as built upon the Hobbesian-Hegelian thought of Kojeve, is that the homogeneous and universal state will satisfy the largest number of singular individuals drives towards recognition, all on top of scientifically/technologically driven material abundance. The question regarding to the end of history was what system would do this, socialism or liberal capitalism? Whichever one does so would be the last (not best) socioeconomic and political system. The collapse of the USSR made it seem like the question was settled for liberal capitalism, which Fukuyama capitalized on and made a name for himself. However, if resurgent nationalism stems from a failure of liberal capitalism to deliver maximum thymos/recognition, then that IS in fact a refutation of liberal capitalism as the true final system at the end of history if it cannot overcome this resurgence and amend the root problem. And while resurgent nationalism doesnt have a coherent systemic alternative to replace liberal capitalism right now, that's not to say something wont come along either before or after some regime collapse/revolution happens, and in all likelihood, it will just end up being some form of national socialism or return to a religiously centered authoritarian system. Its a fundamental contradiction to say that liberalism is backsliding and decaying while still pretending its the final system. The true final system wont do so and Leo Strauss warned that the final system will just be a totalitarian dictatorship that gives Last Men everything they want to the side of total scientific psychological domination.
>>25446045Also, Fukuyama presumes openly that liberal capitalism has resolved class conflict, which both on national and the international levels is utterly untrue. That alone is a sore spot of competition within society and an asymmetry between the distribution of recognition in the system. This is a matter that socialism/the Chinese system could theoretically absolve.
>>25446025No they don’t. All three are staunch allies of the West. Only Iran and jihadists are overtly hostile to us. This is just one of the dumbest misconceptions from people in the West that they constantly parrot, that Muslim countries are secretly plotting a holy war against the West or something. No, most Muslim countries are propped up by the West itself. Just 2 years ago we helped install an al-Qaeda leader in Syria. A week ago we had Morocco dump a bunch of biomass migrants into Spain at behest of America and Israel who spent that day celebrating Morocco as an ally. The one country that hates America is Iran and we’re currently at war with them. Muslims are a profoundly castrated force in the world and the only reason you fear them is because everyone else is so irreligious today that they stick out more and produce more violent militants who are frustrated with their weakness
>>25446045National socialism is unironically the real end of history. Fukuyama even admits in the book that the Nazi system worked. It’ll take a while for people to realize it but we’ll come back full circle in about 20 years. It’s the truest synthesis of an industrial society full of shared abundance with proper social cohesion that prevents internal collapse. China is essentially national socialist.
>>25444826What do you make of someone like Nick Fuentes, who actively reject the centralization you describe in favor of embracing identitarian values i.e. christian nationalism? Do you think an idealistic sovereign using centralized power can redirect technological advancements toward ends that reject tech slavery in favor of a (in their perception) more optimistic future?
>>25446128>No, most Muslim countries are propped up by the West itself.I think Western countries certainly think they control Muslims but in fact are being outplayed by them. For example, Saudi Arabia and Qatar are funneling vast amounts of money into mosques in Western countries, radicalizing Western Muslims, under the nose of Western governments.
>>25446140What would it take for you to concede China is socialist and not NatSoc? For me it’s if they start exporting revolution
>>25446167i'm something of a layperson so this post confuses me - china displays immense nationalism, does it not? i'm assuming that you meant national socialism in the german/austrian sense and not nationalist socialism? it's pretty obvious based on events in china that they definitely have at the very least an ethnic hierarchy with all "chinese" people lumped in together as han chinese, don't they?>For me it’s if they start exporting revolutionwhy would this be the defining factor that makes them socialist? the US has exported more revolutions than (as far as i know) all other major nations combined, are they socialist too?the chinese communist party obviously has their pre-defined ideology set as their ultimate goal but are displaying a remarkable amount of expediency to accomplish that, which i suppose is why the current system, which is one of the steps towards that dream, throws so many people off in terms of trying to identify what it can be defined as
>>25445814Yeah, most of them, especially before Covid. During Covid, the so-called "Liberal Democracies" went totally Fascist, and the populations embraced it (likely yourself as well). Ironically, it is those who scream Fascist the loudest at just about anything who were the first to embrace it when it reared its head.
>>25446158No, because the infrastructure is beyond a culture war issue, its a hyper-financialized, post-industrial base. The system is experiencing tangible shortages in birth rates to maintain ideal "pure" demographic numbers without actively compromising the material comfort Westerners demand. Dialectically, this is impossible. You cannot run a purely grievance based or identity based mentality on top of a global semiconductor supply chain, automated labor markets, and fiat financial networks. Capitalist market logic is what encourages movement of people, as they want to maximize population numbers for increased consumers in a market, and that logic predicates itself on growth. The existing technological infrastructure set up has become a dependency for large portions of the populace, and these digital and financial networks carry an inherent system of material imperatives. A Fuentes sort would redirect the same apparatus towards a different authoritarian ideological end, but the logic remains of the surveillance and authoritarian state. It results in a recuperation by the system, becoming a state manager who posts edgy memes or Bible verses on X while Silicon Valley and BlackRock run the underlying hardware a la Trump, who has in many ways served this function, even with the consequences of the chaotic 2nd term (where he still faces lobbying from business interests, the NRx crew, Israel, GOP party insiders, asskissing sycophants and so on manipulating his whims for the interest of the same beast). With the Groypers, if you aren't meaningfully addressing the actual material architecture of ownership, capital accumulation, and hardware infrastructure, you're just playing dress-up in the culture war while the machine runs itself. If you do this, there will be drastic material consequences, that the American populace will not be prepared to accept, and this also applies to Marxists if you follow their ideology to the letter. The Groypers are pretty much a mix of National Socialism and Theocracy, which are totalizing by definition. They are existential and expansionist and depend on the wider nation to conform, the idea they will be content with a mere freedom of association, or a benevolent philosopher king can enact Groyper ideological end goals without actively alienating or harming a significant portion of the US populace or utilizing the authoritarian infrastructure seems to be wishful thinking. I don't see how they will be able to dismantle the surveillance apparatus, or a willingness to, rather than simply redirect it to their own ends.
How can liberalism be the end of history if its clearly falling under the weight of its own contradictions?
>>25447876Interesting. Thanks for the effortpost
>>25447876I don't see why the answer to this is not simply Oblivion.If the game is rigged against you, and you can't win playing by the rules, then cheat.Or, better yet: end the game, and start a NEW game, with NEW rules.There are multiple actors and populations, many of whom are allied or at least neutral towards each other, who would benefit from a straight-up fracturing of the American-led geopolitical order, and a shattering of the peace within North America itself.So, why not go for that?Would absolutely end the End of History, too, to keep talking in a Fukuyama-relevant way.And it's closer and more doable than a lot of people think. There are stress-points in a lot of the United States social fabric. Push on the right ones in the right way and you could break it. You might even be able to do it if you had a big enough Twitter account, or had other ways of influencing a sufficient critical mass of people.If breaking everything was THE goal, what couldn't you do?
>>25444826Land was right, Fascism kind of just won in the end
>>25441972>The Israeli Government Installed and Maintained Security System at Epstein ApartmentOh, interesting! This must prove that there was a blackmail operation going on, right? Why don't we read the article?>The equipment was installed starting in early 2016 at 301 E. 66th Street—the residence where former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak frequently stayed for stretches at a time.>Under Israeli law, former prime ministers and other high ranking officials typically receive security services after they leave office.Oh, so because a former Israeli Prime Minister stayed there, the Israeli government installed security there, which is what their law does for former prime ministers. What does this prove exactly?
>>25448504>Fascism kind of just won in the endit should be obvious to anyone with a clue that with the current unprecendented level that society requires technology to function, comes the inherent need for authoritarian structures to maintain it and build upon it
>>25448528That you're a sophist faggot overlooking Epsteins over abundant ties to Israel and god knows what other intelligence orgs, the point that multiple EU countries launched investigations into his intelligence ties earlier this year? Shut the fuck up.
>>25448533Liberals dont want to confront this, even when they constantly complain about how social media has fucked their ivory towers up. They can't even bare to fathom that Eisenhowers warning on the military industrial complex still holds true, you cannot have a functioning democratic system when the industrial base of the system is heavily centered around perpetual war aims under concentrated technocratic management.
>>25443912I’m so fucking tired of hearing about ‘economies’. China is more than 90% homogenous and created a whole economy out of nothing. If a people want something bad enough they’ll make it happen. If they don’t, then leave them be.
>>25439403Here is my basic idea:1. If we follow Hegel’s framework, as Fukuyama supposes he is doing, the Last Man is not a “paradox.” The fact that liberal democracy fails to deliver on the essential human need for meaning and recognition in this way is itself the type of internal contradiction that Hegel predicted would continue to generate dialectical changes in history. That is, the “paradox,” turns out to be, in fact, exactly the sort of thing that Hegel took to be his theory’s main subject matter.Fukuyama’s mistake is to focus on too narrow a set of “basic needs.” This set appears to be based more on what modern political science and welfare economics tends to focus on. But what these fields focus on is confined to what they consider to be their study’s purview, and moreover what can be easily quantified for analysis. Such a set of “basic needs,” is not based on a balanced consideration of what makes for “a good life.” Aristotle, for instance, would not think these goods were enough to ensure eudaimonia, human flourishing. Indeed, for Aristotle, the development of the virtues (something the social sciences tend to ignore) is essential to a “good life.” In essence, the problem is that Fukuyama simply assumes liberalism's thin anthropology, and thus any problem that cannot be described through the distorting lens of liberal/empiricist psychology is rendered invisible or paradoxical.I would maintain that Fukuyama’s inspiration, Hegel, does not make this same mistake. This is why the family occupies an entire section of the Philosophy of Right. Citizen’s enjoyment of their vocation and membership in civic organizations also merits significant coverage for Hegel. (In the Philosophy of Right these civic organizations are called “corporations,” a bit of a misnomer since they are actually a sort of mash up of medieval trade guilds, unions, and modern professional associations). Thus, if we follow Hegel’s theory to its logical conclusion, the Last Man Problem will eventually generate major problems for liberal democracy precisely because it represents a foundational contradiction within the system.
>>254486502. The “Last Man Problem,” is precisely the type of problem we should expect to give liberal democracy a hard time because it is one that liberal democracy has defined as outside the scope of the state. The modern state has a welfare system, something it gained by sublating socialism (more on that in the “End of History” section). But this system exists simply to keep you from starvation and homelessness.The state is not generally seen to have any real role in making sure you like your job or that you feel fulfilled in your life. Any move to address this problem would be seen as violating a sacrosanct line between the public and private spheres; it would be the culmination of a “nanny state.”My counter to this position would be that no state is secure when its people are unhappy. This artificial division between the public and private spheres is itself born of a conception of freedom that focuses too much on negative freedom, and not enough on positive/reflexive freedom and social freedom.That is, it relies on an ultimately voluntarist notion of freedom as the capacity to choose anything, a freedom to "do otherwise." This is exactly the sort of freedom that Hegel attacks as being ultimately contradictory early in the Philosophy of Right. Since freedom is defined as the flight from all determinancy, any choice, in being necessarily determinate, itself becomes a limit on freedom.What is needed here is a return to the classical conception of freedom as "the self-determining capacity to actualize and communicate the Good," as opposed to the bare capacity to "do otherwise." That is, freedom must be defined in terms of actuality instead of potency/power. But to do this requires abandoning the liberal/empiricist anthropology and epistemology that makes knowing the Good outside of a thin selection of "public goods," utterly impossible (a point that is often merely asserted than argued for).To sum up: liberalism is the problem for Fukuyama. It leads to a systematic misuse of Hegel as well. (I am not even a Hegelian any more. If there is any one thinker I owe my allegiance to it is Saint Maximos the Confessor, but I do still have a deep fondness for elements of Hegel.)
>>25439412No. All of these things can be solved in some way without abandoning liberalism. That's alsp not why liberalism is bad. It is bad because it is hedonistic drivel.
>>25446045universal recognition through constitutional enfranchisement works, what went wrong is liberals throwing up their hands and giving up because glowniggers blew up a few towers and some jesuits funded gain of function bioweapon research in china>nooo actually we need to take your rights away because the real world is too scarywhatever! of course people will see this cowardice and consider fascism to be preferable since at least it's honest with its intentions
>>25448622The fact that he was a Mossad agent doesn't mean there was pedophile blackmail going on. This whole moral scandal is just a crusade against straight male virility.
>>25448800Eat a 12g slug retard.
>>25448818Prove the pedophile blackmail ring, faggot, millions of emails and not one bit of evidence
>>25442702People just add the word "techno" on to anything and expect it to mean something.
>>25448533What makes a structure authoritarian?
>>25448822Those millions aren't even half of what DOJ has, which they have withheld illegally. You're sounding like Spiderkash who had the gall to tell congress that Epstein sex trafficked over a thousand girls just for himself. https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.com/amp/US/bill-gates-told-house-panel-epstein-plotting-blackmail/story%3fid=134098296You're either a glownigger or one of the dozen cunny loving perverts who come out of the wood work on this site to suck up to the most notorious tripple agent human trafficker in recent history.
>>25448800Kek
>>25448856Nta, but you sound like a delusional moron who thinks somehow that Gates saying this proves that there must have been a secret worldwide pedophile blackmail ring. But of course, you don't actually have evidence for this delusion. There is also nothing being withheld illegally.
>>25448905https://www.axios.com/2026/08/05/new-mexico-sues-doj-epstein-fileshttps://massie.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=395849Youre completely wrong, but OK. Meanwhile, what's been released details clear human trafficking and innuendo to the side of global power brokering. Let's not forget countries from Poland to Norway to France to the UK have launched investigations into the human trafficking, blackmail, and corruption side of all this. You're either samefagging or the billion dollar human trafficking industry spends a little bit to have golem pop up to advocate on irs behalf.
>Epstein bots coming out of nowhere to run interference for the liberal pedophile cabalReally activates the almonds
>>25448905>woodchipper sounds approach, closer and closer, homing in on your feet
>>25448856stop replying to him anon, he's a jew
>>25448695No. Universal recognition may work under liberal democracy, but I would prefer if humans and their spcieties were not governed by mindless appetites of pleasure and recognition.
>>25448936>She's definitiely telling the truth because... uhmHopefully you'll have tp endure even more pain and suffering in life, largely self-inflicted of course.
>>25448931>everyone I don't like is a bot!You people are not serious. One could shoot you and it would be as inconsequential as putting dough in the oven.
>>25448987>won't somebody please think of the jewish billionaires in bed with unhinged intelligence agencies!
>>25439403PRAY.
>>25440851Yeah that's more or less what I thought of aswell when I read the book. Recognition is indeed a primordial political demand, but unless it translates into an effective material reality, it will remain a purely nominal gain. What I mean by this is that recognition is considered important because it is seen as the permissibility to accomplish our desires and ambitions. The Civil Rights movement for instance wasn't about recognition per se, but rather the downstream effects. Fukuyama (and Kojève) misses the point by taking it as the goal in-itself rather than the appearance of condition of the accomplishment of our acts. Then there's also the question about whether or not liberalism is uniquely suited even if we grant his thesis...>>25441297Oligarch capture has always been in place, the only thing which changes is which oligarchs govern us. Robert Michels' works on that topic have been mainstream for years now. That said, our current techno-libertarian oligarchy is really pathetic compared to the more developmental-bureaucratic we used to have. They at least had the pretense to act as if they cared about the common interest.>>25442067>My understanding of Fukuyama is its more a statistical thingNo it's the complete opposite. The book is more complex than "the good guys won in 1991!">>25443580>it shouldn't be difficult for peopleThe issue it's that it's been 40 years of neolib supply-side globalist propaganda. The liberal/libertarians thinktanks represent a billion dollars industry that's focused on pumping out constant misinformation and co-opting whichever popular movement exist. Our representatives' education was filled with public-choice theory, chicago school econ theory, neoclassical epistemics when it comes to the market etc. It was en vogue at their time and we've been paying the price since then. >>25448650>>25448653gemposts
>>25448983>>25448987>kike resorts to low attacks when truth has been established Many such cases.
>>25449037>won't somebody please think of my sleep paralysis demons!
>>25449058I am nordic, actually. You are most likely a shitskin though. Also, the other guy was fantasizing about putting me in a woodchipper for not being as terminally pathetic as him.
>>25449057What is "techno-libertarianism" and why do you think our oligarchs are subscribed to it? I mean, the industrialists of the 19th century used to be even bigger individualist and social darwinists than they are.
>>25449153Stop lying kike, and stop covering for your child molesting cousins.
>>25449057>Recognition is indeed a primordial political demand, but unless it translates into an effective material realityWhat does "effective material reality" mean here?
>>25449156I'm from Iceland, you are free to be wrong though and maintain your delerium like all retarded /pol/acks.
>>25449156Face it man, you are never going to actually do anything but whinge and moan as we jews quietly replace you or whatever it is that we are supposed to do, it's not always quite clear. Not even Tarrant could do anything, since he decided to shoot up a mosque instead pf a synagogue, and you are too much of a pussy to do even that. Maybe it's in your genes or something.
>>25449155>What is "techno-libertarianism"The idea that property-rights constitute the basis of civil society, and that improvement in technology are good and will deliver substantial improvements to the aforementionned society. It's not a coherent set of ideology desu, it's just general traits exhibited by most of the wealthiest people, who coincidentally also have deep involvement with politics>why do you think our oligarchs are subscribed to it? Because it's in their interests. Most of them managed to acquire their wealth through technological innovation. Generally speaking, adherence to an ideology is generally founded on universalizing your perspective on certain topics. >the industrialists of the 19th century used to be even bigger individualist and social darwinists than they are.That's correct but they mostly faded away after the 2nd world war. During the mid 1950s to the late 1970s, most of the influential intellegentsia and powerful people were linked to the State rather than to the market. The State held a more active policy in industry and markets, which enabled it to wield substantial economic control. As such, a lot of the background ideological governance came from nameless bureaucrats rather than financial figures. Similarly, unions and the looming threat of communism restrained the entrepreneurial spirit.>>25449157We want to be recognized because we want others to accept our will and our personnality as what they are. Simply giving empty political rights doesn't yield an actual feeling of recognition if it doesn't translate into a effective & substantive permissibility to enact our own will and to be ourselves.To put it simply, if a fag wants to be recognized politically, it's because he wants to have anal sex without feeling judged. If his political rights enable him to be a fag but doesn't come with the removal of social stigma, he won't feel recognized.
>>25449545>The idea that property-rights constitute the basis of civil society, and that improvement in technology are good and will deliver substantial improvements to the aforementionned society.Sounds like something the average joe vaguely believes>It's not a coherent set of ideology desuClearly, since the only people who use it use it as a thing to denote dislike.>Because it's in their interests.It's in their interests to believe in vague non-ideologies?>The State held a more active policy in industry and markets, which enabled it to wield substantial economic control.Yeah, though mainly through financing, central banking and job and leisure schemes, becayse austerity is just too hard on the poor delicate masses. But it's not like they were total planned economies.That thing about the threat of communism restraining the "entrepreneurial spirit" sounds like complete bullshit though.
>>25449545>We want to be recognized because we want others to accept our will and our personnality as what they are.That's not at all what recognition is. It is ego-gratification, the desire of others. You want to be recognized by others as good and exceptional in some way, looked up to, or as being a strong fighter in some meaningless struggle for recognition at the very least. You don't just want to remove the stigma and force people to believe that you are a real woman. You want to be admired.
>>25448650>Fukuyama’s mistake is to focus on too narrow a set of “basic needs.” This set appears to be based more on what modern political science and welfare economics tends to focus on. But what these fields focus on is confined to what they consider to be their study’s purview, and moreover what can be easily quantified for analysis. Such a set of “basic needs,” is not based on a balanced consideration of what makes for “a good life.” Aristotle, for instance, would not think these goods were enough to ensure eudaimonia, human flourishing. Indeed, for Aristotle, the development of the virtues (something the social sciences tend to ignore) is essential to a “good life.” In essence, the problem is that Fukuyama simply assumes liberalism's thin anthropology, and thus any problem that cannot be described through the distorting lens of liberal/empiricist psychology is rendered invisible or paradoxical.I don't think much of Fukuyama, but doesn't he address this in the End of History as one of the risks involved in liberal democracies producing a society of last men?
>>25449844Yes, he absolutely does. But he presents it as a sort of paradoxical threat to the "End or History" whereas Hegel would have certainly seen it as yet another contradiction they would need to be worked out before we reached the end of history.Personally, I get a lot from Hegel but I don't actually subscribe to his overall philosophy. In terms of history, Dante (underrated on this topic) and Solovyov are closer to where I have ended up (or Saint Maximos the Confessor, but he gives you less to go on concretely). But I still think this points to a real blind spot in Fukuyama. The Last Man becomes a sort of extrinsic paradoxical weakness in liberalism due to his own myopia, where I would say it is more obviously a per se weakness of liberalism, a fatal flaw even.Fukuyama also doesn't address this in later works. Origins of Political Order is great as far as it goes, but doesn't take on these issues head on. His most recent work defending liberalism nods at MacIntyre and Deneen, that whole camp (I forget if he mentions Milbank by name) and basically says "under liberalism you can fuck off to the woods if you want," which is frankly a complete non-answer to a major competing paradigm. It makes one wonder if he just doesn't have a good answer, because it's not like MacIntyre is new. I find this is common though. Champions of liberalism generally don't want to get dragged into debates on metaphysics, epistemology, and anthropology because the tradition is under resourced here. Instead they want to assert it by default as uniquely "neutral" and presuppositionless. I guess a weakness then is that liberalism, in being so dominant for so long (even Marxism shared a lot of its core assumptions) has sort of atrophied its ability to respond to any paradigm not steeped in the same Enlightenment world-view, and so it tends to rely heavily on its historical meta-narratives to say that violence and oppression always reign outside liberalism (a crutch Fukuyama returns to in his latest book repeatedly, as it all of history is the Wars of Religion on repeat until the Enlightenment). This also generally requires a cherry picked whig history of the scientific revolution to back up, which seems vastly harder to support today, with all the genealogies of the theological origins of materialism and liberalism that have been done in the past 40 years.Which is all to say, I don't think Fukuyama even attempts a real response here. Pic related I guess (Reiff is particularly prescient, it's incredibly how accurate his predictions have been; Liquid Modernity is good too).
>>25439412> right-wing oligarch capture of the WestWhy do you call radical Islam right wing oligarchs? That makes no sense whatsoever.
>>25439403I study IR and I fucking despise him for some reason. I do understand the end of history well but its just what he is- an idealism and idealists are the greatest scourge on IR as a discipline ever since the first great debate.Plus his titles make me furious. He tries to find the most provocative titles, which is understandable, but by god he overdoes it. Im an atheist so i couldnt care about the gospel but his claims and the ''end of history'' is just the product of post cold war euphoria felt by the western liberal institutionalists. He even claimed that history was not over when Trump was elected if memory serves me right.You'd do better by reading Mearsheimer, Waltz or Morgenthau (pbuh)
>>25449709>Sounds like something the average joe vaguely believesIt's a well documented thing now. Vance mentionned the influence of Deneen and other post-liberal thinkers, Thiel about Girard, Anton directly comes from the Claremont institute, Musk self-identifies as a libertarian iirc, Bessent and Vought are often thought of as austrian economists because of their policies, Karp is a pseudo-accelerationist, Bezos & Zuckerberg are both very optimistic about technology's prospects aswell as free-market capitalism etc. Apart from being contrarian there's little point in debating over it desu>Clearly, since the only people who use it use it as a thing to denote dislike.Anon have you ever gone to a CS class ? Half of the kids there would say that this label is amazing lmao. Most neolibs and lolberts are thrilled by the improvements in technology and want to expand at all costs the power given to the CEOs of these companies. >It's in their interests to believe in vague non-ideologies?The answer to your rhetorical question is literally in the line you quoted. Adherence to an ideology is generally founded on universalizing your perspective. If your work relies on creating technological innovations and selling them on the market, then you're likely to treat it as good and see it as a positive moral thing to do. Their ideology just reflects their position. >>25449718>You want to be admiredThat's not the kind of recognition that Fukuyama talks about and that I was trying to show the weakness of. His recognition is about having political recognition, about being able to be seen as equals in politics.
>>25439337bump very good thread we are all fucked no lube
>>25450440Does Fukuyama just pretend he didn't write posthuman future at this point. Great post and all, but to the side of the last man contradiction, the technological imperative that liberalism straddles is a thing in of itself and risks destroying everything.
>>25451919That's true. However, I do wonder if run away technological development and market expansion isn't, at a more basic level, just the same old problem of intemperance, lack of prudence, vainglory, and acquisitiveness at the individual and corporate level, only now playing out at a grand scale. We've learned how to do so much under the auspices of the scientific revolution, but become completely unable to determine what is truly worth doing with any degree of certainty. This reminds me of Saint Augustine's criticism of Rome as embodying "spending vices" in The City of God. Surely, there are many great things about the virtues that have led modern development. However, misdirected, they become vices. The Baconian "mastery of nature" starts to look, in the end, much like Rome's libido dominandi, the lust to dominate that becomes a dominating lust (that dominates *us*). Certainly, the collapse in fertility and the problem of digital balkanization and people checking out of community looks a lot like Augustine's incurvatus in se, the soul bent inwards on itself, and its no shocker that our era has come to see Milton's Satan, the prime example of this, as a sort of hero.This is maybe clearest if you read the big post-human/trans-human thinkers. They basically subscribe to sheer voluntarism. Power is good because power is freedom and freedom is good because you can do... whatever.I liked R. Scott Bakker's short story Crashspace on how this becomes incoherent in the end (of course he's a values anti-realist eliminitivist, so all his thought is ultimately incoherent too lol).
>>25451956The Catholics are really the only way out. Liberalism is going to collapse, or be killed, but what will replace it? To guarantee that its replacement is good and just we'll need some different standard, some other paradigm, and the Bible and the Church feel like almost the only game in town, at least in the West.I do think it's interesting, in light of that, how many people jumped on Pope Leo's encyclical on AI. A bunch of people read at least parts of it, including non-Catholics, including non-Christians. It's as though there's a kind of instinctive, natural authority to the Church that asserts itself when everything else seems to be dissolving. It was the same when the Dark Ages started as Roman authority collapsed in Western Europe.
the actual institutions of liberalism are failing but the frame still has a long time leftthis is (part of the reason) why the 'liberalism isn't leftism' statement is silly, they have the same frame so yes they are in fact the same
>>25451997People intuitively sense that what's being done with AI is being done with malicious intent, thanks to everything ranging from Terminator molding pop culture to Larry Ellison running his mouth that Oracle is gonna set up an omnipresent AI surveillance state. That on top of liberal institutions clearly just being husks controlled by a corrupt global oligarchy leaves a gap that potentially the Church can fill. I was baptized Lutheran and basically apostated since, but Leo seems to be the right man, right place in an institution that will almost certainly outlast the giant farce that is liberal democracy.
>>25452003The trouble is that when things like this happened in the past, you didn't have active, vocal ideological and intellectual oppositions to the frame.Like, to use another Roman example: Romans regarded themselves as living in a Republic for centuries after Augustus, and the Emperors themselves never really disputed this frame. The Senate continued to meet, the Emperors still styled themselves as the Consuls,SPQR was still the slogan of the city. It only fell away once it was long since exhausted; basically, only once Diocletian came along was the Emperor truly regarded as an Emperor in the Persian or Babylonian mold. The 'republic' frame fell away from disuse but there was never any active opposition to it.By contrast, there IS active opposition to Liberalism. No Roman ever said "the Republic is bad, actually," but there are numerous anti-Liberals now saying "Liberalism is bad, actually." It's a dynamic that previous long-living frames haven't had to deal with, I think.
>>25452029Sure they're *saying it* but they aren't actually stepping out of the frameLiberalism not living up to its promises (what most people mean when they criticise it) does not rebuke the frame
>>25452045Ironically if there's one group of people who could truly rebuke the frame it's probably the Catholics yet again. If anybody in the West has the biggest grounds to complain about Liberalism it's them, and maybe Christians more broadly. Christianity has basically collapsed in the West during Liberalism's ascension and domination over it. If what's most important to you is as many people being Christian as possible, then you DO have a legitimate gripe with Liberalism as such, not just for it failing to fulfill its promises but for doing active, material harm to your position.Liberalism displacing Christendom is an undeniable fact. Just look around you.
>>25439867>but after trump leaves we will just return to a end of history politics of boring neocons vs boring neoliberalsTrump's entire time as being politically relevant has been about destroying veils.In 2016, he destroyed the veil that you need diplomacy to get elected. That you need to have a clean record, no big sex scandals, no big accusations of fraud, no big failures, he basically walked into 2015/16 at a worse political and social standing than nearly any past president on their last days, and he won. Throughout 2016 all the way to 2023, he got the entire republican party to roll over for him. Everyone is on his side despite literally zero republicans backing him in 2015, and there being many staunch "holdouts" (people wanting to career build) in his first term.He completely destroyed the perception of democracy and has convinced hundreds of millions of people in America that their elections aren't free or fair. Whether or not you believe that is true, he did that.Optics don't matter anymore. He won, objectively, everything that mattered in 2024 with the worst optics imaginable. Cope about Harris or whatever, but he did it.He's already shown international law was, as we all knew it to be, a flimsy joke that barely mattered, that was only held up by nobody wanting to be the guy to ruin it.There is no going back from Trump. Trump will be one of the great men of American history and to deny this, to think everything can just cool off when all levels of government in America, on all sides, every party, every politician, is playing into the rhetoric HE USED in 2016, the type of dialogue HE WON WITH in 2016 and 2024, when entire careers are now completely tied up in whether or not you supported Trump and NOTHING ELSE, is absurd. Donald Trump unequivocally won. His grand desire if you really look at him, is simply to leave his mark in history, and he has. I'm gonna come off as a shill, but he will be remembered alongside Washington, Lincoln, and Roosevelt.
>>25452108Trump has been subdued by the neoconservatives for their core goal of the American imperialist project (Iran War), despite promises of radical shakeup or nationalist isolationism. Has he changed the system or merely violated decorum?
>>25452128What I think a lot of people don't appreciate about Trump is what he does without meaning to. A lot of what Trump has done to advance the downfall of Liberalism and the end of the Postwar Order he has done on accident, or as a result of something other people have done in reaction to him.Relative to the Iran War, I actually think this is another example, because by giving the neocons everything they wanted Trump has probably hastened the downfall of Israel. Their position is much less secure than it was before the war started and the war itself is basically to blame for that. Not just what Iran itself has done, but also the reaction to Israel trying to push into southern Lebanon only for the IDF to take notable losses there.
>>25452029There were attacks on Rome and its values from within Rome in the form of Christian critiques from early on. Rome's decadence, its birthrate crisis, its faux liberty, etc. were obviously criticized from within Roman culture (e.g., Cato talking about cosmetics), but Christians gave it a radical new reframing.This culminated in the West with Augustine, who drops 700 pages of immanent critique showing how Rome fails according to its own standards, and then another 700 pages showing how those standards were themselves always shit.In the East, it's a little different because the culture was eventually completely Christianized from the ground up, and also dislocated from its Latin heritage.>>25452045This isn't true though. Figures like D.C. Schindler and John Milbank (or even David Bentley Hart from a more progressive direction) are fairly popular, and their criticism of liberalism isn't that it fails to deliver on its narrow set of "public" goods but that it is itself a sort of nihilism. Hart, who is more progressive, still advanced the claim that liberal modernity is ultimately founded on nihilism and satanic self-assertion, and D.C. Schindler calls liberalism/consumerism the most obvious form of evil at work in the world.Catholicism never really made peace with liberalism. Modernism remains a heresy (the great heresy) and while it is certainly a very real problem that uneducated trads think modernism is "anything about modernity we don't like" it is nonetheless true that the epistemology of the actual modernist heresy, and the metaphysical assumptions that float it, tend to be implicit in liberalism (that is, the ultimate end of human life, God, and metaphysics itself, is unknowable/irreducibly plural, and so civic life must focus only a narrow set of public goods that can be verified through empiricist assumptions). Vatican II came around on pastoral issues but social contract theory remained something it directly and vigorously challenged, and the open rejections of both neo-liberal consumerism and Marxism ring out clearly down the decades.Hell, the Church never retreated on birth control, fornication, masturbation, sodomy, etc. Which, on the one hand, this led to a very weird, and probably corrosive fixation on sex (while gluttony, usury, etc. tend to be ignored), but on the other hand starts to look more wise when you have whole countries with fertility at 33% of replacement. I don't think people realize that within 2-4 generations your hitting 90-98% population declines (which is obviously spaced out over 30-70 years, but in some ways that makes it MORE of a problem because you have a sea of old people and no young people). Consumerite, modernite cultures drive towards extinction fertility is certainly something of an indictment.
>>25452108>I'm gonna come off as a shill, but he will be remembered alongside Washington, Lincoln, and Roosevelt.He'll be remembered as a Commodus, Nero, or Caligula unless someone remarkably more competent and scrupulous takes over his legacy.
>>25452026>but Leo seems to be the right mannever trust american agents
nietzsche’s last man gets equality, comfort, convenience, and no reason to live . his hunger, the desire for competition, fulfillment none of that will disappear, it just gets redirected into money, status, nationalism, identity, politics, whatever. liberalism does not offer recognition because theres a void of individualism. individualism and nihilism makes people clamor for the past more to fill that void. if nothing is true everything is permitted. from the left marx proves in liberal capitalism there is no equal recognition or dignity in a system where the capitalist is the master and the prole is the slave. from the right huntington/schmitt/etc. matter insofar as they remind you that culture, territory, sovereignty, and conflict don’t magically evaporate because liberalism has a persuasive universal theory of itself. i’m not buying their prescriptions, especially dugin’s whole reactionary metaphysical cosplay, but the underlying objection is real. what happens if liberal modernity REALLY IS the endpoint of ideological development, but human beings psychologically cannot tolerate living at the endpoint? because its empty. they cant handle the lack of meaning or nihilism. they must revert to superstition, or entertainment, or hedonism
>>25440876>they aren't whiteNeither is the US.
>>25452026Leo need only give the command. We stand ready.
>>25452108Trump himself is interesting because he’s being propped up by people who see him as the last chance to protect the power of liberal hegemony, but he himself is not an ideologue. His rise to political power is actually a rebuking of liberalism in the sense that he found success simply by imposing his will. He’s a megalomaniac who was so stubborn and ruthless in asserting his individual presence in the world that eventually the world came to embrace him. Even though Trump is at the head of the Liberal Empire, this is why so many liberals like Fukuyama are disturbed by him. The leader of the democratic world is a guy who doesn’t give a fuck about democracy, and he was rewarded for it (because liberalism is fake and bullshit)
>>25452212Yes, there’s a real possibility that because of this war in the future Iran is going to drive America out of the Middle East and Sunni countries will form their own power bloc in the vacuum. Idiots still don’t understand that Trump is the accelerationist option. If you’re an anti-Zionist or anti-liberal, he’s a fucking godsend. It’s the biggest self-own in history that the ruling class installed Trump after Oct 7 to “save the West” and preserve Israeli power when all he has accomplished in only under 2 years is hasten their decline
>>25439337Fukuyama is just a system shill with no genuine beliefs, if he lived in Russia he would support Putin
>>25440165It's funny how so many political theorists like him have a blind spot for Israel and pretend to ignore it
>>25439867That is simply not possible after Covid and many people losing faith in the institutions, we can't just go back
>>25454501Obsession with Zionism and the Middle East is just a prerequisite for any member of the ruling class or intelligentsia. Even the smarter ones are still concluding “this Iran war is a mess; but we should just recoup and try again in 10 years.” It never even occurs to them that these wars in the region shouldn’t be fought at all.
>some much Catholarp ITTLmao. Tthe Tradcath shit for /lit/ is like gay communism for Reddit. Yeah, sure, your ebin Catholic revival is going to happen any day now.
The main thing I get from all this is that Europe is destined to fall into irrelevance after over 2000 years
>>25454522I seriously don’t get trad Christian shit. Christians are so utterly subservient to liberalism in the modern world that they literally can’t conceive of their religion as a force independent from it. American Christians are custodians of the most degenerate force ever seen on earth, Sodom and Gomorrah times a billion. There’s zero chance of any sort of Catholic political rule emerging. Christianity is a spent force that has been completely sublated by its bastard offspring and Christians are now defenders of the system that defeated them. What is the role of Christianity in the world today, practically speaking? Mainly Christian Zionists serving Israel and Jewish interests, the very people that Christianity intended to supersede. You can’t possibly be more defeated as a religion than succumbing to the forces you were originally created to undermine.
>>25443662>>25443827>right wing jews keep waging wars that destabilize regions around the world>left wing jews push for mass migration of people from these regions into the westThey might oppose each other but they both work together to make the West and white people weaker and more divided.
>>25440717Political theorists like Fukuyama who refuse to address the jewish or female questions are just regime propagandists who are not worth listening to
>>25454569>I don't get X.>I will not address X in the slightest, and will dismiss X purely on the grounds of criticisms of Y, which is loosely associated with X.In particular, it is odd to associate traditional Catholicism or Orthodoxy with Zionism (or really any form of either). This is a uniquely Protestant thing. On the account of the Church, the Church is the new, true Israel, the Rapture is a false teaching, etc. Second, it pretty much ignored the history of liberalism and how the Church responded to it. The Anglophone Church is not the whole Church, and America has always been uniquely liberal is several ways. The reason conservatives see a Catholic revival as possible is because liberals (theological liberals, not political, a lot of trad stuff is more communitarian than progressive liberalism) have largely stopped going to to Church and the liberal clergy are all 60+ years old. But the Church is actually still growing (almost 1.5 billion) and a new direction is possible without the heavy influence of modernism (which is still officially a heresy).
>>25454569Second, it's kind of ironic to say the Church is aligned with liberalism when THE issue of post-War liberalism is sexual liberation and the sexual revolution (something the GOP is now fine with, with Hegseth admitting to drunken adultery with no issue as an excuse for rape charges, Trump being fine with affairs, the whole Manosphere PUA shit leaking into mainstream conservative liberal discourse, etc.).The Church, by contrast, even less than the Orthodox, has not given one inch to the sexual revolution.
>>25454695>The Church, by contrast, even less than the Orthodox, has not given one inch to the sexual revolution.NTA, but could you elaborate on this? I always got the impression that the most buttoned-up types were converting to Orthodoxy rather than embracing TradCath
>>25454706Different Orthodox churches have made birth control a pastoral, private issue.The Roman Church still forbids contraception, sodomy, pornography, masturbation, etc. It has not softened its stance of fornication or divorce. Not wanting children is still a valid reason to invalidate or deny a marriage.
>>25454569>>25454695>Catholics completely cucked out on migration and feminism but think boys touching their dicks is a more serious problemThis is why Catholic church is a joke
>>25454640this
>>25454695What does it matter that the Catholic Church is still critical of most of liberalism when no one gives a fuck about the Catholic Church? Church attendance is nonexistent in most of Europe. The youth are rapidly becoming atheists. No one adheres to church doctrine even in countries with tons of Catholics like Latin America which is obsessed with drugs and sex. Marco Rubio, the most powerful Catholic in the world besides the Pope, is a homosexual zogbot indistinguishable from a Protestant and openly opposes the Pope. The Catholic Church simply does not command much institutional power, infant baptism is the main thing keeping it alive because even secular Catholics do it for cultural reasons
>>25455291Isn't Biden a catholic as well?
>>25455307Of course
>>25455291All it takes is one Caesar/Napoleon-type figure who's legitimately devout to take power, and then all of a sudden it will matter a great deal what the Church teaches. Imagine a Catholic version of Cromwell, a True Believer seizing absolute power.Beyond that, the goal of the Church going forward is obviously to reevangelize and reconvert the West. Catholics and Christians more broadly have a big advantage over Muslims in that people can simply convert/revert to them. Nobody converts to Islam and once people leave Islam they never come back. Not so with Christianity. What the Church has lost, it can regain.
>>25454522end of history, hegel, marx, postmodernism etc is cope for people trying to find meaning in anything other than the obvious answer of God
>>25452841cool, tell me when the Catholic church comes out against women being able to vote (or voting in general) and then we can talk about existing outside the liberal frame
>>25456211and the obvious answer of god is cope for people trying to find meaning in anything other than the obvious human predisposition for social order combined with an innate inability to understand everything through the filter of consciousness
>>25456320But that's the thing: God is real. It's all real.And that's precisely why Liberalism doesn't work. You can't have people reducing the Alpha and the Omega of the Universe to a private choice that you have to keep away from other people to maintain a polite society. It's simply not moralistically possible. Christianity and Liberalism are not compatible with each other, and you can tell because the Liberal West has become entirely atheist. You have to choose between the two, the current West has chosen Liberalism, and look where we are.
>>25456439>God is real.Then why'd he make over a billion jeets?
>>25455904>Nobody converts to Islam and once people leave Islam they never come back. Not so with Christianity. What the Church has lost, it can regain.This is just patently wrong. Christianity is bleeding adherents rapidly and no one returns to it. Islam has a greater net growth in conversions
christians walked themselves into a perfect trap there's no going around it, they went all in with the "winners" trying to survive by essentially becoming a jesus-flavored version of liberals but all they got was make little to no secular/liberal type closer to jesus and alienate those that would've maybe taken the religion seriously in the first place as it was, this isn't going to simply be forgotten any time soon and the results are obvious, they can't barely breed enough africans with the usual bread for bibles bribe system to make up for losses
>>25456211 Abrahamic religion is a meme in all forms
>>25440069its all the same shit, the status-quo for the past 50-100+ years. protectionism, war (the no-war larp lasted, like what, maybe a year - he was bombing the middle east by like 2017), and putting monied interested into high positions (day one) I liked that he highlighted how bullshit all this democratic shit is, the agencies and voting and whatnot, but that was fickle and rootless, it wasn't principled. maybe we'll see down the line that people really did see things for what they are, but if that was the case presently, there would be a mass exodus from politics. (which hasn't happened, no more than its steadily been happening for decades.) They say the system is crap, but they're praying their inside guys gonna do something about it, which is nonsense. "vote harder", neoliberalism 101.same shit with Raegan and Nixon and all these bastards. the patriotism and "good times" (the eponymous Boom, of Boom and Bust fame); lies and manipulation and threats all the way down. bogus economics being the core most issue.
BUMP
>>25456859The Catholic Church hit 1.4 billion members this year. It is you who is not correct. Christianity isn't bleeding members at all.
>>25457525What is going to have to happen is that somebody in the United States is going to have to become a dictator.If you want to break "the cycle" then you need to make the cycle cease to exist. No more elections, period. Shatter the end of history once and for all by breaking democracy in the United States permanently, in such a way that it can never be repaired.More than that: a man with the powers of a dictator in the United States could be the solution to many of the problems of the American State. The national debt, entitlements, the immigration problem, the downfall of social mores, all of these are problems that no US President could solve in one term or even two. America's problems have grown, and the capacity of the American People has shrunk, to the extent that what needs to be done in this country can no longer be done by those who have to answer to the voters every two or four or six years. America needs a Caesar, more accurately an Augustus, if it is to survive.And this would not only prove Fukuyama finally wrong, it would prove Spengler finally right, that we really are going through the cycles of a civilization just like the Ancient Civilization did. It would be the ultimate test case.
>>25458127Many dont want to hear it, but this is the truth.
>>25457525>>25458127In the simplest way I can say, what is actually happening right now in the world is that the West is struggling to maintain its liberal democracy in the midst of things like mass immigration, demographic decline, deteriorating gender relations, AI, social media, growing secularism, etc. Many deformities are created from these tensions. But the problem is that nobody in the West is actually acknowledging that these problems are being produced directly by liberal democracy. They are not accepting culpability that this system inherently creates these contradictions. Everything being done right now is in the name of preserving American power and liberal hegemony, and any issue that people in the West notice is considered to be an attack on liberalism.Thus, all of our politics is based on ressentiment. It’s all people who feel like the promise of liberal democracy has been confiscated from them and they have to blame other forces for it. Today it’s “Islamo-leftism and third worldism,” yesterday it was wokeness and cultural Marxism, before that it was white supremacy and cishetero patriarchy, etc etc. Not a single fucking person is actually blaming the West or liberalism for the maladies they take issue with, it’s always just blaming some evil specter that has arrived to hijack our beautiful and perfect liberal democracy so we have to elect strongmen like Trump to weed out the subversive invaders and do things like “drain the swamp” and “remigrate” people. Needless to say, their premise is wrong so nothing will be actually fixed by the end of the decade. The first phase of 21st century liberalism was violently spreading its hegemony but using a language of peace, tolerance and human rights. The current phase is disillusioned elites ignoring the language of liberalism and claiming most people in the world are too uncivilized for it, but they still spread liberal and American hegemony nonetheless — Trump is the peak embodiment of this. And the next phase may be people abandoning liberalism in the West altogether when they realize liberal democracy literally cannot solve things like demographic change no matter how hard they try to work within the system. Technocratic elites will come to this conclusion more and more in the future after Trump’s term utterly fails by 2028
>>25458264you're not wrong but the idea that "no one is talking about this" is ludicrousplenty of people on the left and right know that liberalism is failing
>>25458264>Everything being done right now is in the name of preserving American power and liberal hegemony"liberal democracy" is just a codeword for globohomo and control under ZOG
>>25458276Like who? The positions right now are not that liberalism is failing, but that it’s being failed. These are very different things. The party line is that we need to get rid of immigrants because they’re compatible with liberalism, we need to wage total holy war on Islam because it’s not liberal, or we need more diversity so we can expand liberal rights and freedoms to minorities instead of the rich whites, or we need to buy Twitter to save free speech from the radical woke left. All the same shit. Sure people are more racist, vindictive and resentful nowadays, but fundamentally they’re interested in the maintenance of liberalism, not trying to create an alternative.
>>25458302>Like who?The entire NRx & ethnonationalist arms of the rightThe (growing) communist factions of the left (though this is more talk than action)It's the entire premise of accelerationism
>>25458306Largely irrelevant. Musk is by far the most important player on the Right and he still goes on rants about why Texas should be full of Indians and why our precious liberal freedoms are being harmed by immigrants. In the future more people will question the need for liberal democracy but right now virtually nobody is suggesting the 1st Amendment is bad or that the West should be more like China
>>25454895Especially when they practice it in secret.
>>25458322Musk has recently been dipping his toe in race scienceThings change
>>25458377And they will continue to change and accelerate. Musk will go outright manic at some point in the future. But I don’t anticipate a 180 flip where the West decides to become an illiberal dictatorship like the Romans. It’s more likely the West will continue to rot and decay trying to make liberal democracy work.
>>25458377Musk needs a lot of things just flat-out pointed out to him. But I do wonder if he has sufficient will-to-power that once he's aware of certain things he might act on them.He's a weird sort of autist in that he IS an autist but he's got high executive function when most autists have that in very low amounts. He built a rocket company from scratch, AND a car company, AND a robot company. AND he bought Twitter. Most autists can't run a business for six months without it going under.So I do wonder what would happen if someone just flat out told him, "Hey, Elon, you know you could rule the US as a dictator, right?" Put the idea into his head.
>>25458382You’re right, but it’s wishful thinking. Currently Musk is being puppeteers by a literal Jew whispering in his ear (Gad Saad) about how we need to save liberalism by deporting all Muslims. Those are the only intellectual standards Musk cares about. He’s really quite a moron on politics and culture.
>>25458404Well we'll see. You'd be amazed what you can speak into being by saying it at the right time in the right place to the right people.And that said: I certainly wouldn't complain about no more Muslims in the West.
>>25458409The point is that the current right-wing framing around being anti-immigration, anti-Islam, pro-Israel, etc is all in the name of protecting liberal democracy from a hostile threat. They’re willing to contradict liberal values in service of this goal but ultimately it’s about maintenance of the system. People nowadays in the West really struggle to conceive of a what a truly illiberal worldview looks like and I encourage everyone to read books from intellectuals in the early 20th century.
>>25458417Oh, well, you're completely right on that, I wish you'd been more upfront about it.Frankly I find this to be a bit of a value of Trump's. Trump's brain wants to be a 1990s Democrat. Trump consciously wants to be Bill Clinton. But subconsciously? In his lizard brain Trump is illiberal as fuck. Trump absolutely wants to rule as the dictator >>25458127 talks about, he wants to never leave power and thinks he's entitled to the fealty that a king or an emperor is due. The entire American system struggles to contain him because he absolutely is spiritually a Roman Emperor or a Khan of the Golden Horde. Whether he himself knows it or not.Honestly it's no surprise that him coming to power out of nowhere in 2016 ushered in the beginning of the end of Liberalism. He is a totem, a Figure, of the pre-Liberal state of mind. At least where rulers are concerned. He has cracked something in Liberalism's marble. If he does nothing else, then for that he is valuable, from the perspective of somebody hostile to Liberalism.
>>25458479Yes, I gave my own thoughts on it here >>25454474 there’s no going back after Trump, he’s a truly schizophrenic force of disruption that was inevitably going to emerge from the decadence and excesses of liberalism (Fukuyama even mentions Trump in his book back in 1991 as an example of a somewhat illiberal force in American culture, a figure of pure vitality instead of boredom which liberalism really wants)
>>25458490I do think it's worth pondering whether he's going to do it. THE thing. The final thing.Which of course would be: seize absolute power and hold it until his death.People fragged him for not seizing power on January 6th, but has he gotten the last laugh? All of a sudden the feds are more his than they were at any point in his first term.What I keep tellilng people to do is watch Pete Hegseth at SecDef. Hegseth keeps not getting fired. He's had so many scandals. He's botched the Iran War so far. By all rights he should be long-fired by now. But he isn't. Why?Because Hegseth is Trump's hatchet man at Defense. Because Hegseth is how Trump controls the military, and if he has the US Military he can do whatever he wants.You want real illiberalism? See if Trump tries to stay on past 2028. If he does that the End is over and we're back in the midst of History.Would it be so terrible? Would make for some awfully nice poetry, I think.
>>25452108Not only that, other countries' politicians learned from him. Some in my country who are at the top are imitating him. Politicians all over the globe no longer care about optics and will call their opponents all kinds of things without consequences.
>>25458381>>25458382the thing is with Musk is he is 10 years behind everyone else, he's only now in the "multiculturalism bad" phase of rightoidism, which I guess better late than never but it exposes the fact that he has no political instincts at allalso despite the fact that he's portrayed as this aspiring fascist dictator and the richest man to ever exist, he has put very very little money into anything that furthers right wing politicshe could single handedly stop debanking, he could start media companies, he could bail out people that are convicted for words, or he could even just highlight all these things happeninginstead he retweets someone saying "Wow" at something everyone knows is happening already
>>25439337>OKAY I'M WRONG AND RETARDED BUT STILL LET ME SELL YOU THIS BOOK WHERE I COME TO TERMS WITH IT>CHA-CHINKjews are right about goyim
Is Trump the Caesar Spengler talked of
>>25458127Adorno knew it in his heart when he said Spengler will be proven right in the end, his revenge for having been forgotten
>>25441735Yep. The problem with democracy is that the mob is actually just a resentful class of slave moralists who literally do not understand what is good for them. People still to this day talk about the 2008 bailouts as some sort of evil scheme concocted by the rich to save themselves, when in fact it was a brilliant piece of financial engineering that saved the world from a depression. People are just suspicious of anyone in a suit, who looks clean and well-dressed, and speaks better than them. That's why they elected Trump.>The only hope left is that the so-called "deep state" takes control of the government and puts in place sensible policies, while allowing the seething masses to get their dose of vengeful catharsis through the pantomime of electoral politics. So far though, this supposed "deep state" has yet to show its vaunted power, probably because it doesn't exist.The deep state is just a psychological phenomenon, it is the name given to excellence, intelligence, and careful governance by the putrid mob.And that's fundamentally the problem with liberal democracy: it is an oxymoron. Liberalism champions science, reason, urbanity, and innovation, democracy champions everything that is common, base, vulgar, badly-dressed, and stupid.
>>25459511I think a basic understanding of economics is the most painful knowledge to have because you immediately see through all the bullshit ideas of your countrymen and become an island, after this listening to any kind of political discourse is just alienating & lonely>immigrants taking our jobsdoesn't exist>deindustrialisationdoesn't matter>tariffsdon't work>2008 bailoutswere good>minimum wagehas no effect on living standards>the federal reserveis good actually>bitcoinis a worthless criminal waste of resources>the trade deficitis irrelevant>housing pricesare nowhere near as bad as claimed
>>25459558Lolwut
>>25459645Incredulity fallacy
>>25458322>or that the West should be more like ChinaBut they do. That's why Thiel and all the other pro-surveillance spooks are pushing for more cameras on every street corner and more databases and less privacy. They would love a social credit system.
>>25459653Yep, a troon lol
>>25454487Brics cope lolInbred
>>25459352No
>>25459558>>deindustrialisation>doesn't matterYou’re a moron, the current state of the West and the ascendancy of China is literally the result of us deindustralizing. We can’t even produce enough arms to keep up with Iran
Fukuyama, Hegel, and their ilk essentially substitute a manmade ideology for the question of God. For proponents of the Hegelian, Marx, Fukuyama end of history view, or any sort of grand teleological narrative - time is linear because it is cumulative. We are building a tower of knowledge, laws, rights, social relations and so on, a collection of rules. Each era forms a rung on the ladder. The "End" represents a plateau of rational maturity. Fundamentally, it is a secular version of salvation: "We have finally found the way to be free." But for what end? Just freedom for the sake of it. Then left in the state of nature - nasty, brutish, short.The Christian conception of linear time and end point - eschaton - does not aim to reach a peak of efficiency or political stability. It rests upon a definitive divine intervention. It is beyond worldly matters and honest with itself, it is the end of all that is. It actually offers a coherent end, that atheists are afraid of.>Internal resolution versus external resolution: in the liberal vision of the end of history, resolution arises from the system itself. In the Christian vision, it comes from the outside. No matter how many "updates" are made to the human operating system, that system is fundamentally flawed (due to sin). Only the eschaton can truly repair it, it arrives from outside history and any earthly force, rather than as history culmination.>For Hegelians, the "End of History" is a state of equilibrium on Earth. For the Christian, the eschaton is a cataclysmic transformation. Total reset. End of all ends. It is the transition from this world to the world to come. All of this amounts to claiming that we have established the Kingdom of God without God. It replaces the divine judge with the ballot box. The hubris is staggering.
>>25453502You've never interacted with a single American in your life. By that measure, neither is France because of their paternity laws and German because of their roach infestation.
>>25460419hegel was not an atheist, dumbass
>>25439448why do they do this?
>>25460406>You’re a moron, the current state of the West and the ascendancy of China is literally the result of us deindustralizing. We can’t even produce enough arms to keep up with IranLol. The US produces like 50x more arms than Iran. The problem in the Iran conflict is that defensive missile interceptors and anti-drone technologies are much more technologically sophisticated and expensive than offensive missiles and drones. It's easier to produce a bomb that hits a large, slow or stationary target than a bomb interceptor that hits an incoming missile or drone, for obvious reasons.Why do you think it's like a 1000:1 kill ratio in favour of the US?> the current state of the WestWhich is?> the ascendancy of ChinaChina being lifted out of poverty by capitalism is one of the great achievements of liberalism. There is nothing more horrifically racist than this anti-Chinese sentiment. Even still, China is a poor country on the level of Serbia.
>>25460678>China is a poor country on the level of SerbiaYou are either delusional or retarded beyond belief.
>>25443580You can dance around the subject as much as you want but the simple fact is that 'benevolent authoritarianism' isn't possible unless Jews are discriminated against. Having a homogenous population helps a great deal, too. One of the reasons China's government functions so well is because everyone is Chinese and they're very strict about letting foreigners integrate into society. Let Jews in and they'll make it their life's mission to undermine that by any means necessary.
>>25460745>You are either delusional or retarded beyond belief.You're right, I said something wrong. Serbia is richer than China.
>>25459511A retarded post responding to an even more retarded and deranged post.
>>25460770Blows my mind how people think it’s a contradiction that Jews are pro-migrant leftists and liberals for the West but hardcore ethnonationalists for Israel. Can they really not see how this is connected?
>>25459699Strait is closed
>>25461282There are many anti Zionist jews though
>>25461282>Ethnonationalism = nazism>But Jews can't be nazis>TV says they're our allies and no internet from 1945-1990s to challenge this
>>25461290>manyThere are DOZENS of them!!! DOZENS!!
