If The Fall was really meant to be an allegory or symbolic, why did Jesus have to die on the cross?
So we stop hating women o algo
>>25443106Symbolic of what? I would guess Adam & Eve could be representative of a group, but based on my understanding, there had to be a choice made in innocence to become knowlegable of sin AND for a sin to be commited. I don't think a creator could create anything other than perfect innocence and remain just.
>>25443142The story falls apart with God’s omnipotence desu. He created Adam and Eve knowing full well what he’d make them do, then proceeded to punish them for it. Now we as humans need to acknowledge the death of Jesus as a sacrifice even though that was also priced in from the beginning?
>>25443106>why did Jesus have to die on the cross?He did symbolically and allegorically.
>>25443106If the fall, as you say, was meant to be allegorical or symbolic, then of course Jesus did not have to die on the cross. It doesn’t follow. Perhaps it’s a drumming good conclusion to the arc of the Hebrews, but it’s not necessary for any man to physically die if it’s an allegory or a symbolic story. No, there is no supposing the fall was an allegory or symbolic, even if the story was truncated and highly editorialised, the years of many telling stripping away the fat and leaving us, posterity, with the precious bones. No, there is no supposing it, because it is anachronistic: the authors of the gospels certainly did not suppose there was some doubt of the history or “truth” (let me sneak such vague terms in here now), no, they did not suppose the stories were not historic, not real, or not true. Therefore, if you desire to understand the Christian, neither can you start from such an assumption. Listen: if you will not presuppose certain things about life and fate, about humankind, then you will find Christianity very hard going.If there is an argument that makes sense of an allegorical Adam and an historic Christ, I know not of it.
>>25443142>Symbolic of what?people say that Genesis is symbolic or metaphoric just because they believe darwinian evolution to be true, not because they figured out any non-literal meaning lmao
>>25443253That's just bad theology. The cosmos was always incarnational and revealed in its fullness through Christ. Of course God foreknew there would be an exitus, just as He foreknew the reditus by which all things would be lifted up and made new in Christ.
>>25443942>>25443253Saint Paul is explicit about this, re the predestination or the Church to glorification in the letter to the Romans (see in particular Romans 8). Early moderns with their excessive individualism decided to read all of this as applying strictly to atomized individuals of course. Penal atonement theology is a distinctively modern invention and it's odd to me how in English language spaces it and divine command theory tend to be assumed as the default. I guess they are more influential in Anglophone contexts, but they are a minority there too.
>>25443106Genesis is an historical document and the fall is the beginning of humanity's present nature. The Last Supper and the Crucifixion are the prefigurements of Divine Liturgy and the Eucharist, which begins in the Church Age after Pentecost. Christ had to be crucified to initiate all of these sacramental realities which we participate in as Christians. Christ died on the cross for our salvation, but it's not open to us unless we join the body of the (Orthodox) Church and participate in the sacraments, namely Confession, Baptism, Chrismation, and Eucharist (John 6:53). Of course there are exceptions like the thief on the cross, but if you have prior knowledge and understanding of the Church, you certainly have a higher level of culpability and you can end up living in a state of wrongly abusing God's mercy (many Protestants).Of course, there are many valid symbolic or allegorical interpretations of Genesis, but there is primarily the historical and sacramental reality of it. Protestants tend to 'de-materialize' the faith, as in they have no belief in the physical, sacramental, and historical realities of Christianity, because it is not possible to be a Protestant while having an objective view of history. This also leads many to disbelief in the sacramental and material realities of Baptism and Eucharist (communion), which are the most fundamental components of Christianity. They think that the sacraments are symbolic, that your soul is not changed and purified in the Christian life, and that what actually matters is affirming a set of beliefs or saying the 'Sinner's Prayer.' If you take the time to read the New Testament with the commentaries of the Fathers, you'll see that all of this is very contradictory to scripture.
>>25446329Excellent post. Viva Christo Rey!
>>25443106The myth of the apple may or may not have literally happened, but that humans exist in a fallen state is an obvious and observable fact. That obvious and observable fact is what makes the cross necessary. The fact of your own sins is literal enough to necessitate a literal crucifixion, regardless of what might have physically occurred at the beginning of the world.
>>25446329>papist must shoe horn hate of prots into an answerEvery time.
>>25446439Not RC but glad we can agree on it>>25446480OP's proposition would be contingent on the existence of Protestant theology
>>25443106The same reason organisms have to die. A physical immortal would infinitely take life instead of giving.The "good news" is that your suffering and death is not punishment from above but the plan God actively partakes in as man. Your failure to embody the perfect immortal ideal is inevitable but every step closer is good. It's all explained in Job but most Christians still maintain the position of the three friends, framing suffering as punishment despite the text explicitly stating they're wrong.
>>25446496>Papist strawman's Protestant theologyEvery time
>>25443106Symbolic does not mean "not real". It means the message is encoded. In this case, the fall represents the separation of humanity from God.
>>25443106Because the Roman Imperial Church of Pedophilia lied.
In Christian theology, viewing the Fall of Man (the story of Adam and Eve) as an allegory or symbol does not diminish the necessity of the crucifixion. Instead, it shifts the focus from a biological debt to a spiritual and existential reality. [1] Here is how theologians connect a symbolic Fall to a literal crucifixion:## 1. The Reality of Sin is Real, Even if the Story is SymbolicAn allegory is a story used to reveal a deeper truth. If the Fall is symbolic, it symbolizes a profound reality: humanity is universally broken, separated from God, and prone to self-destruction. [2] * The Problem: The "Fall" represents the human condition of selfishness, pride, and moral failing.* The Consequence: Whether sin entered the world through a literal piece of fruit or represents a timeless truth about human nature, the resulting spiritual separation from God is real and catastrophic. [3] ## 2. Universal Brokenness Demands a Universal SolutionIf the Fall is an allegory for the universal human condition, then every single human "falls" individually.* No Self-Rescue: Human beings cannot bridge the gap between their flawed nature and a perfect, holy God on their own.* The Necessity of Christ: Jesus’ death is seen as the only mechanism powerful enough to break this universal cycle of sin and death, offering a cosmic rescue mission for a genuinely broken world.## 3. The Cross as the Ultimate Visual and Literal AnswerIn Christian thought, God responds to concrete human suffering and sin with a concrete, historical action.* Literal Substitution: Jesus entered human history to experience the worst of human brokenness (betrayal, injustice, torture, and death) to absorb its consequences. [4, 5, 6] * Overcoming the Symbol: The cross is where the symbolic problem of "the curse" meets a literal, historical triumph over death through the Resurrection. [7] ## 4. Recapitulation (The "New Adam" Theology)The Apostle Paul frequently contrasts Adam and Jesus (e.g., Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15). [8, 9] * Adam represents old humanity—the archetype of disobedience and failure.* Jesus is the "New Adam"—the archetype of perfect obedience.* The Exchange: Jesus had to live a perfect life and die on the cross to undo the pattern of failure that Adam symbolizes, creating a new path for humanity to be reconciled with God. [10, 11, 12, 13, 14] Would you like to explore how specific Christian denominations (like Eastern Orthodox vs. Protestant) view this connection, or look closer at the biblical verses that discuss Jesus as the "New Adam"?
Why is the hate of women so pervasive in all 3 kike religions?
>>25443106It is symbolic, but it also really happened.
>>25447413Excellent post, very correct
tired of tradlarpers
>>25448034Not just those three ignoramus
>>25448034They were on to something
>>25447310filtered desu
>>25443253I am not a Christian and just reading the Bible for cultural value more than faith and I would love to be corrected by other anons itt, but isn’t it not the point that God is omnipotent and all-knowing, but rather that Adam and Eve, with their free will, choose to taste the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, therefore *willingly* shed away their primitive innocence? Even though they are tempted by the Serpent, both of them still have the choice to ignore it and not eat the fruit, and not just that, they were explicitly warned by God that they would die if they ate it, but they heed the serpent and do it anyway. And choice, in this case a brazen, deliberate trespass against God, always brings consequences, even if God knew that this would happen, he would still have to deliver the sentence regardless. It’s like raising a son who is a drug addict, you know he’s going to relapse again, but that won’t stop you from having to punish him.
>>25448535>And choice, in this case a brazen, deliberate trespass against God, always brings consequences, even if God knew that this would happen, he would still have to deliver the sentence regardless.This doesn't make sense. If God is omnipotent, it's literally impossible to disobey him. God could have stopped them at any point.The fact that he didn't indicates that their trespass was part of his plan. It was God's will that they sinned.It's hilarious watching Christfags squirm over this. An omnipotent God is nothing more than an autist playing with action figures.
>>25448592Again, I'm not a Christian, at most I'm curious about Christian theology. From what I've read of the Bible (up to Numbers really), God seems to allow a lot of agency for humans, with the caveat of very severe punishments should they go out of line, and even then he exhibits remarkable patience. God to me does seem to value free will a lot. If God does not want sin at all, why does he give humans the capacity to sin? Why does he still choose to protect the Israelites when they have shown time and time again their rebelliousness? Why doesn't he just zap them into total obedience or obliterate them completely when they make the golden calf?
>>25448693>If God does not want sin at all, why does he give humans the capacity to sin?Well, quite. It must be because he actually wants sin. Therefore, not to sin is to go against God's will. Which as we know, is impossible. Therefore God not only wants sin, he commissions it from us.Welcome to the logical contortions of Christianity. Christkeks can't logic.
>>25443253Couldnt that be said of most theologies? I think the omnipotent starter makes it more interesting.I also like the interpretation that in a way, eating the fruit actually makes us closer to god because it allows us to RECOGNIZE right and wrong. we are without sin before it, but we are also not much different than the animals in the garden. We are not actually capable of fully recognizing God without learning and being able to conduct what is his absense, that is sin. It is wrong to sin, but the ability to sin actually allows us to PROACTIVELY do good instead, rather than just BEING like a Deer or fox, living ignorantly, but within his order.
>>25448771You're so confident about something you have no understanding of, it's pretty amazing
>>25443106>If The Fall was really meant to be an allegory or symbolicIt is not meant to be an allegory or symbolic.
>>25448771>>25449016Always the same absolute illiterates who are loudest about everything and making sure no productive discussion about anything ever happens.
>>25449052??The Fall, according to Christian theology is not meant to be an allegory or symbolic. Things such as the snake and the tree might be, but that there was a Fall is pretty much a given.
>>25448034They're fucked in the head with no sense of reverence for tradition. They are the degenerates.
>>25449081>there was a fallThat's how allegories work, if they're not supposed to represent something real they're not allegories. The most literal account you can give of any event is still symbolic anyway since the account is not the event, the "literal" account just uses a symbolic vocabulary you're conditioned with. Translators thousands of years later with no equivalent to something as basic as the letter A might be confused why you keep referencing oxen in your accounts of events that have nothing to do with cows and others might argue that you're talking about literal cows every time you use the letter.In this case the authors used pre-Christian mythology derived from passed down history to represent the idea of man falling into sin and separating from the divine, a pattern that repeats in history and everyday life.People had been romanticizing pre-flood man as the perfect ideal for thousands of years but there wasn't a singular flood, it's multiple events where relatively established cultures collapsed in natural disasters associated with the end of the ice age. The pattern of approaching an ideal and then falling being reflected in everyday life intuitively frames the pattern as a kind of metaphysical truth that dictates all reality. Greek mythology places Hera's garden with the golden apples gifted by Gaia and the serpent that protects them in Tunisia, an area we now know was a paradise and cradle of humanity, swept away by a series of floods followed by eventual desertification. It was a long process from the end of the ice age that's still ongoing but the final remnants of that paradise were lost around the late bronze age desertification event across the med. In the early bronze age the area was still the largest water system in the world, with more freshwater than the Amazon.
>>25449001You're so totally devoid of an argument, it's equally amazing.>>25449052Ditto. Stay triggered, godtards.
>>25449787
>>25446329>> Genesis is a historical document> open up historical document> talking snakePeople DIED over this shit LMAO
>>25446480>>25447310>Orthodox are Catholics
>>25450860Some are. There are Byzantine Right Orthodox Catholic Churches.Pic related.
>no, there wasn’t a talking snake, that’s ridiculous! It clearly symbolizes man’s fall>Jesus reviving a man from the dead, walking on water, and healing diseases with a touch? Yes, that absolutely happened!!!Christian “logic” for you.
>>25450816>>25452609>i don't want to stop gooning and being a manwhore, therefore christianity is false
>>25450871This is what all pre-schism Latin churches looked like
>>25443106>why are we mortal? And why is life so painful? Why didn't god make life more like heaven? Doesnt god love us?>well we were immortal and there was no pain. Because god does love us. But then women fucked everything up. >oh that makes sense! That's why the fall of man is in the Bible.
>>25443106>really meant to be an allegory or symbolicTalk about faulty logic. Of course if it were meant that way then there was no reason but Christian theology says it was neither and thus the sacrifice. -- Sheesh.
>>25453996>incoherent illiterate burger noises continue
>>25450816Those people did more with their life than you, frogfaggot tranny
>>25443106>why did Jesus have to die on the crossHe didnt. sin is never required
>>25443106because theyre different books, retard, and they need their own endings.
>>25448034women are evil vapid whores
>>25443106Uranus (God, immaterial, crown chakra) unifying with Gaia (Mother Mary, material, root chakra), meeting in the middle. Creation ensues (Jesus, creation itself, the heart chakra). The middle is the highest. The heart, love,drives creation of reality. Jesus dying and resurrecting is the process of temporary creation becoming permanent, and of mortal things becoming immortal. The evil world tramples upon the pure heart. Dont resent, act in love, let it crush you. Your rewards will be immeasurable. Follow your heart :)
>>25450816you think that's crazy? Shakespeare didn't add witches to the story of Macbeth, the witches were part of the historical records.
Jesus dying on the cross was nothing more than a retelling of the pagan practice of sacrificing an animal at the beginning of spring. Except, instead of a lamb, now it was the "lamb of God".Rising from the dead three days later is based on pagan sun worshiping rituals. The shortest day of the year (i.e. December 22) is the traditional "death of the sun", and three days later, it comes back to life (i.e. December 25, when Jesus was supposedly born).If you want to understand Christianity, look at what came before it.
>>25450816I know, right?You know what makes more sense than anything else I've encountered? The idea that "God" is deeply flawed, and shattered his psyche into innumerable independent fragments so that they could work out the solution to his problem. Gnosticism has a concept of a deeply flawed deity they call the Demiurge, but what I'm talking about isn't exactly that. The "original sin" is God's own flaws manifested in us.
>>25455066This. Or God is an immortal consiousness in eternal loneliness. Naturally, that makes him go insane. Existence is his insane, fractured mind. Nirvana/Salvation is your part of the fractured mind returning to sanity. But when the mind of God fully returns to sanity, the full dread of eternal loneliness hits again, with him actively choosing to fracture his mind again. Thus, the universe begins anew. Nirvana/Salvation is no escape. No one can escape. We are all just God coping with eternal loneliness.
It literally happened. People interpret it otherwise because they do not understand the implications of being made in the image of God, or what role Adam played in creation, or what role the human race plays in it.
>>25455215>>25455066>projecting human flaws and tendencies onto God
>>25455239Were we not created in his image and likeness? I put it to you that includes all the bad qualities, too.
>>25455435It's not exact equivalence. You'll notice that we are not omnipotent or omniscient. We're a reflection of God in the finite and contingent, not direct copies that fell, and projecting our qualities onto God doesn't track.
>>25455612You can assert that all you want, but isn't it odd that so many people use their "free will" to become completely awful? Either that's a reflection of the nature of God, or God is so awful that his creation has decided en masse to turn away from him. Either way, God is awful. At least the Gnostics confront this issue, instead of shamefully skulking away.
>>25448535Look, it's not like Adam and Eve freely choosing the good entails some kind of contradiction.So God could just create that world. Instead of the one in which they choose sin. No problem.
>>25443106>why did Jesus have to die on the cross?He didnt. the murder of Jesus was a sin and sin is never necessary
>>25443106Jesus was the serpent in the garden. He is the liberator of Man, the savior of Man from the slave master God.
>>25456021The issue is that man was created with free will. This is pretty much my own interpretation that I made up, but ultimately I think the reason that God created Man with free will is basically one of loneliness. He could create an entire universe at a word, but without anyone to share it with, what's the point?So He creates humans with free will, but since they have free will, they eventually make a decision that turns out to be a bad one. The Fall was inevitable because preventing it defeats the purpose of creating Humans in the first place.
>>25443106...so basically, no one here has read more than two verses at a time, no one pays attention to what amos means by righteousness and justice
>>25456291>The Fall was inevitableThat does NOT sound like free will. In what sense is Adam free to chose good, if evil must be chosen? Not that I think the free will excuse for evil works at all, I think it's a very bad response.
>>25456358>AI slop Not reading
>>25455860God made man this way because it was good, and because we are made in his image. Human beings having the ability to choose is a good which far outweighs the evils which can result from the use of that ability. This point is obvious but it's easy to overlook. The idea that God is omnipotent but unable to make a world without evil, or that he is omnipotent but got lonely like >>25456291 says, is silly to me. Omnipotence means what it says, and if the world is this way it's because it was intentionally made thus, or at least, its state before the Fall was. Being "made in the image of God" has more serious implications than most people think. Before the Fall humans were capable of unbelievable things, and the regeneration of human nature by grace occasionally enables these things again in the form of miracles or spiritual gifts, but these are small candle flashes of what was once a sun. The Fall was uniquely catastrophic to creation because of the unique nature of man as made in God's image.
>>25456291How can you have free will while lacking the knowledge of Good and Evil? You'd be like a child, ignorant, just randomly following impulses with no regard to their moral content. No, in Genesis, God created automatons, hollow beings with no capacity to think, and it was the Christ-like Serpent that came along and helped Man secure free will through knowledge. What does God say when he finds out about this? "He has become like Us, knowing Good and Evil." This proves God made Man UNLIKE himself originally. He then proceeds to punish Adam and Eve for an action they took in ignorance of Good and Evil, the original act to eat, which makes God himself immoral, but we'll set that aside for now.
>>25456358Saar I am artist I make comics saar do the needful and reed my prampt engineer bitch lasagna
>>25454951>zeitgeist propaganda/leftypol/ has entered the thread
>>25443106The sin was disobedience but what motivated it was pride. It is why the first thing Adam and Eve do after being gifted with absolute knowledge of good and evil is cover their nakedness. It's sort of an allegory, but also not really, because the allegory at play, or at least the broader similarities it is meant to have with each individual's own fall, is that each person is incapable of recognizing evil and cannot see past their own nakedness. One of the final lines from the Garden is God saying to an unnamed third party after finding them clothed and afraid, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing Good and Evil". You really can almost hear a faint smile with that one line, but that's my own interpretation.
The fall was God setting up a bunch of funhouse mirrors while playing with dolls, then “punishing” said dolls for doing exactly what he created and controlled them to do. >INB4 muh free willThere is no free will under an omnipotent God >INB4 muh allegory for human natureThere is nothing humans can do or create outside an omnipotent God’s scheming and doll playing. Our “evil” is set out for us just as our “goodness” is: by the the whims of our creator.
>>25460443gonna be real with you chief this is exactly how little girls play with dolls as well. god has no reason to wish to be the little girl, he just is. we are his dolls.
>>25460443An omnipotent God is fully capable of creating beings with freedom. That's kinda what "omnipotent" means. You think they're mutually exclusive but they're not.
>>25460930When Adam sinned, was God surprised? Did he not know that would happen? By choosing to create this world, God chooses everything that will happen in it
>>25443106Read Girard >>25443253You are retarded
>>25461123Good talk
>>25443106The Gnostics explained all this. If a servant of the the empire shows up to tell you the Gnostics are a heresy, just know if you ask them this question they'll have a very unsatisfactory answer.
