>>25455511
Yeah kind of.
But also kind of not.
It's such a broad category of experience that it becomes meaningless unless you apply the basic mental health standard where it's not a disorder unless it's destroying your life, and that standard is subjective by design.

>>25455511
A woman wrote that.

>>25455511
No, All evidence indicates that it didn't exist before the 17th century. It seems to have been caused by the development of powerful, accurate artillery.

(That's the real, combat version, of course. The oversensitive woman version was invented in the 2000s.)

>>25455553
>>25455558
You guys really can't go 15 minutes without bitching about women? Also do you really think the guys who cut their enemies apart with swords or impaled them on spears didn't develop some fucked up psychology from doing so?

>>25455566
>stop nooticing!
No.

>>25455558

Can't you say all biology, medecine and science didn't exist then? They're all intellectual products of the modern world, the picrel is supposedly modern literature.

Also i'm familiar with what you say and don't necessarily disagree, but picrel is extremely accurate to my experience and I've never been to war, nor has the author. Although the POV character has.

>>25455566
>Also do you really think the guys who cut their enemies apart with swords or impaled them on spears didn't develop some fucked up psychology from doing so?
Actually he's onto something, at least from the same posts or sources I read. It's said that before, even with how fucked war was, the point when PTSD like symptoms began to appear was when you could get insta-killed by artillery. Maybe it wasn't widespread before, as brutal as some fights could be in the past or shit like Genghis Khan, being too brutal in war wasn't actually so normal AFAIK. So artillery normalized brutality in war and could make PTSD something to be seen enough to become part of literature, even if it happened before. I could guess that in the past you didn't live much after someone close to you got brutally murdered because it only happened when you lost. Now both sides experience brutal deaths instantly no matter if they win or lose. Something like that.

>>25455558
>All evidence indicates that it didn't exist before the 17th century.
Lol. Cite the evidence please.
> caused by the development of powerful, accurate artillery
You're still operating with the "shell shock" lie? If there is a technological horizon to PTSD from war, it'd be sustained campaigning and fighting becoming sustained. Of course that still leaves regular PTSD from trauma, where the horizon would be the inverse; that is, brutal childhoods would be the norm and most would be suffering to some extent (at least winding back to the first cities and rise of agricultural civilization, before that and we have to speculate with modern hunter gatherer analogues and that's not great).

>>25455915
>was when you could get insta-killed by artillery
Again, this isn't the key, since being randomly killed by artillery isn't a predictive factor in developing PTSD in modern war, rather it is the long term sustained barrage during WWI that you people are probably conjuring in some mental muddle, but even DURING WWI they figured out that the key was rotating troops out, that is they were using stress management even when they wrongly speculated about shell shock being the cause.

Artillery doesn't make you randomly subject to death and in constant stress, WWI is a gigantic anomaly due to the static trench warfare. In WWII things are more fluid and you don't get the same presentation despite much better artillery. This is like 101 introduction level information on PTSD and war so the fact that none of you retards know it to begin with shows the value of your contributions to the topic.

>>25455511

The way they talk about it is certainly different, there's no clinical therapy language like we have today. I do however believe that there are documented cases of combat trauma throughout history. My favorite example for this is from the Battle of Marathon, as recounted by Herodotus. It seems very much that Epizelos was struck by some sort of hysteric blindness caused by the horrors off combat and facing death head-on. Very notably Herodotus makes sure we know that he is in good-standing, his condition is not dishonorable.


*117. In this fight at Marathon there were slain of the Barbarians about six thousand four hundred men, and of the Athenians a hundred and ninety and two. Such was the number which fell on both sides; and it happened also that a marvel occurred there of this kind:--an Athenian, Epizelos the son of Cuphagoras, while fighting in the close combat and proving himself a good man, was deprived of the sight of his eyes, neither having received a blow in any part of his body nor having been hit with a missile, and for the rest of his life from this time he continued to be blind: and I was informed that he used to tell about that which had happened to him a tale of this kind, namely that it seemed to him that a tall man in full armour stood against him, whose beard overshadowed his whole shield; and this apparition passed him by, but killed his comrade who stood next to him. Thus, as I was informed, Epizelos told the tale.*

>>25455566
>You guys really can't go 15 minutes without bitching about women?
Are you trying to deny that PTSD has been coopted into a white woman anxiety disorder as opposed to severe battle damage? Come on.

>Also do you really think the guys who cut their enemies apart with swords or impaled them on spears didn't develop some fucked up psychology from doing so?
Yes, that's literally what I believe. Man is born to be a slayer. Rending with your teeth or a spear, a knife, an axe, and your own skills isn't traumatic. It's man's way, and the way of all the apes. Do you think a gorilla is traumatized when he kills all the babies of a harem he's just taken from a weaker male? No, it's his nature, and he does it because it satisfies his instinct. It doesn't cause a rupture in his world and neither does killing in hand to hand combat disturb a man. Read Bertran de Born's poem "Spring is Delightful", read Froissart, read any historical text at all from before the invention of gunpowder.

As Anon says, it's the constant threat of getting instagibbed by a power which is impossible to defend yourself from with your own hands that causes PTSD. If you were going to see PTSD among the ancients, look among survivors of volcanic eruptions, lightning strikes, tsunamis.

>>25457333
I don't agree. Maybe 5% of men have the constitution to be the kind of exaggerated warrior you describe. Most men are not built for it. Maybe cultures that put huge value on those things could shift some men away from their baseline, but I also would expect that to indeed result in a lot of what we call PTSD today. When you push people into conflicts who don't have the temperament to really be there. They can endure it, but they won't be enjoying it the way that some people clearly do.

>>25455511
It's a universal mammalian experience. Ever seen a pound dog that cowers at any form of touch? It's biological. It's a nervous system that's been fried by some negative overstimulation (the trauma).

>>25457077
>be me, currently reading Herodotus for the first time
>finally get to Marathon (just yesterday, in fact. good timing)
>no long distance runner flying to Athens to announce victory, then promptly dying of exhaustion
I was pretty surprised. That's such a Herodotus-ian story and absolutely the kind of thing you would read in his Histories, but that's not what went down. I actually like the "real" version that he tells a lot better, though.

>>25455511
No, but CPTSD sure

>>25457077
just sounds like low blood pressure

>>25457333
>killing is man's nature
When's the last time you killed anything more substantial than a household pest? And how did you do it?

File: 1763959681214031.gif (3.33 MB, 310x310)

3.33 MB GIF

>>25457673
>t.

>>25455577
Biology and medical science were nowhere near what they are today, but PTSD is basically just what happens when you are being subjected to operant conditioning in an environment that is also giving you traumatic brain injuries at the same time, and while you can do that in a pre-gunpowder environment, it's much less common because it's easier to avoid getting whacked in the head than it is to avoid the concussive blast from artillery or an entire line regiment firing in synch.

For PTSD to "become a thing" it had to be common enough that you can't just write it off as "that one guy is a pussy/asshole" it has to show up in people whose behavior can't be explained away as a moral defect.

>>25455511
what does that have to do with ptsd

>>25457725
Battles also were just less intense in the past. You didn't have snipers instantly killing people all around you with no warning, artillery raining down on you at any/all times of the day, or today with it arguably being even worse with drones. You read about Phobos being the unofficial god of battle, and people shitting themselves during fights etc., but a few hours of pants-shitting fear is not the same as weeks or months of it. Being really stressed for a day or two is one thing. Being really stressed for several weeks or months nonstop is another. It would be really surprising if people became as damaged from ancient warfare as they become from modern warfare. There for sure was still the occasional guy who had a weak constitution and just couldn't handle any stress at all, but those guys would be atypical.

>>25457699
So I take it you've never killed anything bigger than a cockroach, then

>>25455544
you can basically say that many mental illnesses apply to everybody to a small extent. that's why the questionaries say something to the extent of "do you experience [symptom] to the extent that interferes with your day to day life". but defining mental illnesses and determining if a patient's symptoms meet the severity to be considered one is very slippery. psychology is not a hard sciene.

>>25457736

Before I answer, have you read the book?

>>25457869
The behavioral traits that typify most mental illness are present in most people to one extent or another; they only become mental illnesses when they begin to actively destroy the person's life or the lives of the people around them, and usually only when they get bad enough that the person is no longer both willing and able to take care of their own shit themselves.
It's a bit of nuance, but I think it's an important one. The "ruins your life" part is the important part of mental illness, not any particular set of behavioral traits.

>>25457755
how about being stressed for a lifetime and barely knowing a time outside of it
ptsd ain't shit compared to cptsd

>>25457333
just want you to know that entire second portion contradicts your premise of ptsd being a disorder even related to battle damage and makes it make far more sense as white woman anxiety disorder

>>25458124
that's not what cptsd did and they're not mutually exclusive. they're often compounded. ptsd is just from a specific event and can be time-limited with therapy. you can easily have cptsd and ptsd at the same time.

>>25455558
Hippocrates described it thoughbeit

Hippocrates of Cos, Critical Days 302

“And whenever the liver swells more against his lungs, someone goes mad. He thinks he sees before his eyes creeping things and all kinds of beasts, fighting soldiers even as he believes that he is fighting with them. He speaks as if he is seeing these things and lashes out and threatens if someone forbids him from going out. If he stands, he may not be able to raise his legs and falls. His feet are always cold and whenever he sleeps, he jumps up from slumber and has witnessed frightening dreams.

We know that this fitfulness and fearing comes from dreams: whenever he calms down, he describes the kinds of dreams that he shaped out with his body and was describing with his tongue. He suffers these things in this way. And there are times when he is speechless for a whole day and night, gasping deeply for breath. When he stops this mad episode, he is immediately sensible again and if someone asks him a question, he responds right away and understands everything which was said. But, then later again, he falls under the same symptoms. This malady strikes most often when someone is abroad, especially if someone is walking on a deserted road. But it does happen other times too.’

>>25460363
cptsd is more severe and insidious than ptsd and minus the pr and virtue signalling points of a natural calamity or war
you might not get an acknowledgement even from yourself

Just realised humans weren’t ignoring psychology until the 20th century, it just want required until the Industrial Revolution changed the way we live

>>25455511
Vietnam veterans aren't humans.

>>25460447
it's not necessarily fundamentally more severe and insidious, it's just a different diagnosis. cptsd is from compounded complex trauma and is likely to be misdiagnosed and mistreated compared to ptsd and isn't something you will be granted time off of work to recover from, that's true. i've had clinically diagnosed acute ptsd from traumatic events and have clinically diagnosed cptsd. the major difference really seems to be that ptsd is something you can recover from whereas cptsd becomes more of an actual outlook or way of life. it's not a death sentence though and symptoms do actually lessen significantly as long as retraumatization from the primary stressors (often abuse) stop. you'll never get the childhood or relationships others have and you will always have a very different perspective on life from someone who has never experienced these kind of events, but it doesn't have to rule your life.

acute ptsd was more like having actual panic attacks and full body flashbacks from triggers (not stupid shit people say online but like a song that was playing during the event suddenly coming on and making your brain relive the memory as if it's happening again) along with constant looping nightmares. it's more dramatic in its immediate severity but it's something that will be granted a certain level of sympathy as long as it's "cured" within a quick timeframe, which isn't how it works. cptsd in comparison is more like having multiple traumas that trigger this but that the symptoms themselves are less drastic... BUT it has far more of an effect on your actual self-conception and makes it feel like escape is impossible/the whole world is hostile. regular ptsd can make you briefly feel like this but you can tie it to [x] event whereas cptsd makes it feel like this is what life itself is and will never change.

if you have cptsd as well, and i'm guessing you do from your posts, i've personally found it helpful to get away from people who are telling you all the time that something is wrong with you and you're fundamentally broken or flawed in some way, especially if they're telling you you deserved this. you didn't and it isn't fair. it's just also true that what other people have done to you doesn't have to define you or ruin any chance you may have at your own happiness. what others may want from you was voided the second they decided to deny you the basic building blocks that their expectations suppose you got from birth. whatever you do with your life is for yourself, not for them. fuck them. and frankly this part sounds insane but bitching about it to a closed ai was far more helpful than trying to and getting constantly interrupted by therapists going "who said that? who did? why? do you think they might be jealous? uh huh, how does that make you feel?" for years. privacy being eroded long ago was part of the problem here anyway.

>>25455915
The thing with artillery isn't that it's too brutal, but that it's a constant threat. Before it most of the time you spent in war was relatively safe, with artillery every moment can be your last one, even if the enemy is tens of miles away. If you are in fight or flight every waking second pulling all your attention into listening whether a shell is flying into your direction or not, it's very easy to go insane.