Every single "literary" fiction writer after Joyce merely writes in Joyce's shadow. There is nowhere to go in literary fiction after Joyce. Pynchon is in Joyce's shadow. So is Gaddis."Literary" fiction has been completed. It's finished. To do something new in fiction you must move beyond the "realism" of the literary novel. Say what you want about Tolkien writing fantasy or Wolfe writing sci-fi, they're moving in different directions at least, taking paths that Joyce has not already taken.McCarthy knew it, too, which is why, for his masterpiece, he wrote a genre piece (a Western).
>>25501308What can possibly be so good about his work to deserve this level of glazing?
>>25501345trenchcoat katana lore
>>25501308>the only point of fiction is to do something "new"Excuse me what???
>>25501308You say that like every fantasy writer after Tolkien isn't just writing in Tolkien's shadow, and in a much more undeniable way than your claim about Joyce. Fiction in general is well into its "nothing new under the sun" phase, just write what you want because originality is impossible at this point.
>>25501308I see basically no reason for Joye's high standing in english literature
>>25502433filtered
>>25502440no thank you. I am an avid Ezra Pound reader and still see little amazement in Joyce's prose or literary merit.
>>25502446If you were an 'avid Pound reader' surely you would be familiar with the importance ascribed to Joyce by Eliot?
>>25502446Ezra is nice enough, I enjoyed his sestina alta forte, also his study in aesthetics. In any case, Joyce is a literary champion and even Ezra knew that.
>>25502452Did I say anything about Eliot?
>>25502446filtered
>>25501308>McCarthy knew it, too, which is why, for his masterpiece, he wrote a genre piece (a Western).I wasn't aware he'd written one
>>25502446He———oughter know!
>>25502869this was a light ribbing, pearls before swine in this instance
>>25502899Joyce's memeing is as good as Pound's tryharding, is the point.
>>25501308"Literary" fiction is a meaningless word invented by publishers 30 years ago. It has no bearing on the subject.Joyce did end the form of the realist novel with Ulysses, however. Beckett wrote the epilogue to realism. But you seem to be overlooking the fact that all genre fiction is either an extension of the conventions of realism, or a regression from it. Your little western or fantasy novel has characters in a built up world having conversations and adventures with a symbolic framework? That's just realism with extra gadgets.
>>25502904You thought so? Surprising. I found Joyce's poetry in general to be rather poor, and this superficial prod is nowhere near the density Pound often acquires in his stentorian verse. I think Pound was certainly deserving of a bit of ribbing, but to say joyce beat him at his own game in parody is betraying either your lack of substantial aesthetic judgement, or that your bias has blinded you.
>>25502927>Joyce did end the form of the realist novel with Ulysses, however.But it's not realist thoughever.
>>25502927>Ulysses>realist
>>25501308Joyce himself was just writing in the shadow of Dostoevsky, Ibsen, and Weininger
>>25502507the only reason pound has a career is because he was sucking off eliot
>>25502966pound sucked off everyone who was brilliant, and he could get close enough to.the fact remains that Joyce was no poet
Finnegans Wake is a litmus test. If you're retarded enough to laud this dumbfuck in any capacity whatsoever, then you failed said test.
>>25502971filtered
>>25502973>Has nothing more to say than "filtered"Oh look! A lower functioning primate! Here monkey, here's your banana! OOK-OOK-OOK!!
>>25502971>>25502975you haven’t said anything remotely worth rebutting, brainlet
>>25501308>OMG FARTS FARTS FARTS FARTS FARTS FARTS>This is truly the greatest literaturist of everSorry guys but I'm starting to think literature is a joke, everyone who reads it is a fool and everyone who writes it is mentally ill.
>>25502939>>25502947You werent just filtered by Ulysses, you have been filtered by literature in general
>>25502986>DOOD, MY STREAM OF CONCIOUSNESS LANGUAGE SOUP!!!!Someday I hope you grow out of this pretentious fart-sniffing attitude that almost all /lit/fags seem to develop by default.
>>25503004>i don't read
It's just a bunch of stream of consciousness nonsense.
>>25503030More like steam of consciousness lol
>>25503004No one who has any understanding of the history of the novel would call Ulysses "realist"
>>25503030>>25503042replying to yourself like this is low, even for /lit/
>>25503030
>>25503069Tell that to Hugh Kenner
>>25503002yes. the fact that it took you this long to figure that out suggests to me you are one with whom brevity and directness is best, lest you be disturbed by what flows beneath the surface. next thing you'll tell me is you haven't begun your own canon by reading between the lines! but you do that apready, don't you anon?
>>25503030much of ulysses is not stream of consciousness. many styles are explored. an entire "chapter" is devoted to the course which the english language has taken, and begins with what might be considered gibberish, just outside the use of english as we know it, and ends with an opposing bookend of modern cant, jargon, slang. it sounds remarkably accurate as a predictive element as well. there's even a chapter which is in a catechistic format, that is, question and answer. it's not stream of consciousness entire. furthermore, dubliners shows his mettle insofar as tight, controlled prose goes. this is not a case of some scrambleheaded fidget using gibberish to seem smarter than he is, it's just a man stretching his legs a bit after a long long period of restraint. i admit finnegans wake is beyond even me, but that does not suggest to me that he had no purpose in what he was doing, and to that end, many people have spent many amiable decades prying apart that work, developing structures for it, interpretations of it. it is a living text.i hope i've addressed some of your concerns.
>>25503227Kenner sees it as a rejection or movement beyond realism, he think Joyce is already doing this in Portrait too. He wouldn't cataegorize either as realist novels in the 'traditional' sense of the 19thC.
>>25503250>much of ulysses is not stream of consciousness. many styles are explored.IDK I would argue Proteus is *the* perfect example of the 'stream of conscioussness' style. But you're entirely correct it's not the only style that Joyce employs in Ulysses. And FW as a whole is very Protean.
>>25503267oh, that wasn't to say that stream of consciousness wasn't present! i believe bloom had one as well, then obviously molly's episode.i preferred being in stephen's head. nebeneinander, nechainander, the ineluctable modality of the visible, that ashplant still lingers with me. bloom wondering about the blind stripling's powers of perception was also a great little piece. i feel a bit sad that literature buffs can't enjoy joyce, but that's how it goes. i can't enjoy sebald. ah well.
>>25503265modernism seems to me an accretive process, not quite folding in on itself with metanarratives as postmodernism does, but sort of taking pieces of separate literary disciplines and synthesizing them to the point where they develop their own textures, that is modernism in a nutshell. if you recognize realism in joyce, it's because that was included as an element, but to say that's the genre his works fall under i think would be a category error.
What is with the bizarre notion that only one person in the entire history of human civilization is ever allowed to write <specific genre>? The sheer narcissism.
>>25503312it's just retards building a hierarchy. no one present knows who will remain legendary in a thousand years, or even a hundred. it's like fighting over which marvel hero is best (Gambit) at the playground. totally futile
>>25501308I love Joyce and Ulysses is my 2nd favorite book of all time but I think McCarthy beats him out with Blood Meridian. Blood Meridian gets at the nature of evil in a way that no other novel can.Since we’re talking about GOATS I think Blood Meridian presents a problem, Hamlet asks what we do with that problem, and the Gospels give us an answer. I could be wrong though.
>>25503326> it's like fighting over which marvel hero is best (Gambit)Kek
>>25503265Yeah, which is exactly what was meant by >>25502927>Joyce did end the form of the realist novel with Ulysses, howeverSo glad we got to have this little pedantic contest though, really fun
>>25503239as do you and all, but we are gold to glitter in our discriminations as opposed to the glitters, i only recognize it as such, what you do i do not know, but my recognitions appeal to gold and would please in reproducing themselves in you, humbly
>>25503239also i like that his beard is for some reason the centre of the target, marked for termination like the JFK of keratin
>>25503434this is some of the worst writing i have ever seen.
Sad how many of you obviously have not read Joyce yet feel the need to criticize him. I do not think he is for everyone, but I am currently reading Ulysses and it is maybe the best book I have ever read.If you are at all curious about Joyce I genuinely implore you to pick up Dubliners or Portrait of the Artist and try him out for yourself. I think skipping out on Joyce is akin to hating on The Beatles or Shakespeare. At the end of the day you’re depriving yourself of a triumphant art piece in its form. That being said, Joyce is not as easy to digest as a Beatles album, but there are lots of resources online and books you can buy which make him much more palatable.
>>25503476Want me to add more fluff to obscure my point?
>>25503631you're not cut out for writing.
>>25503338>Blood Meridian gets at the nature of evil in a way that no other novel can.Bro, your madame bovary / cousin bette?
>>25503648Says who? You? Go on then, tell me why.
>>25503338>I think Blood Meridian presents a problem, Hamlet asks what we do with that problem, and the Gospels give us an answer.How does Hamlet fit into this?
>>25503660the connective tissue one calls syntax, or grammar, is elusive to you. your attempts to heighten this language you're clearly not accustomed to betrayed you as your rough bark crumbled and sank the moment it touched water.i'm sure you're competent in your own language, why not just stick with that?
>>25503683to be or not to be o algosorry that's the only part of hamlet I know. I haven't read it, I just know that line because it's referenced in popular culture. as you can tell I am a brainless sissy retard who has no taste
>>25503694So my writing didn't flow well enough for you, fine by me, my aim was to express what I wanted and I did, enjoy your glitter, though without gold it's worthless, and every man including you has a different taste and measure of the glitter, but you knew this already.
Dubliners is good. Portrait is extremely good and kino. FW filtered the fuck out of me but I had a laugh. Ulysses is a supreme work of beauty, objectively one of humanity's greatest artistic achievements. People who don't get it are merely advertising their own sub-humanness.
>>25503727Yes, and Jackson Pollock is the greatest artist to ever live. Tell us more.
>>25503722this is precisely the argument indians use when defending their habit of slurping up cow shit. why don't you stick to your own language? is it not fit for actual human expression or something equally embarrassing?
>>25503734>pollock comparable to joycea better comparison would be Dali.
>>25503744Struck a nerve? Why are you irritated? I will express myself however I want to, all the better if it annoys you, you don't care for substance anyway. Continue to seethe at your leisure, it is amusing.
>>25503772irritated? not at all. simply asking you why you don't rely on your own language to communicate.
The problem with Joyce is that, when I read him, I just don't... believe him? I don't think he does either. And that's a big problem.
>>25503777>saaar you are bloody indian saaar because i say so saaaarOk to stop you seething I will use the native language sar, bloody benchod madarchod rundi bastaerd
>>25503783i only said that indians use that sort of reasoning to defend their poor choices. if you're actually indian that's pretty funny.
>>25503787Good, you are smart and western and I am non-western Indian, happy?
Chuds will really spend too much time on the internet and make hating Jews and Indians their entire personality
>>25503793why would i be happy that i've had to waste my time talking with you? doesn't your country have a rich literary tradition it could be building?You want to come into my language, and complain about the king when you can only string inchoate thoughts together? It just demonstrates a lack of awareness.>>25503796I love the jews, they're just a disappointment, and really should turn away from their wickedness.Indians I don't hate, but I don't find it enjoyable to speak with them.
>>25503802>why would i be happy that i've had to waste my time talking with you?No one is forcing you to talk, you are utterly buffoonish.
>>25503812Were you with your own kind, you would likely not come against such resistance. Perhaps you should take note of what I imagine is a common occurrence for you.
>>25503815No my people are crueller than you.
