1 Kings 18 is an example of how shit the Bible really is.So 1 Kings 18 hints that God actually was willing to prove His existence to unbelievers. It contradicts the Christian narrative that He does not like to be tested or that He only gives evidence to the believers.In 1 Kings 18, Elijah proposes a fair experiment to determine if Ba'al or Yahweh is real. Set up two fire pits and pray to Ba'al and Yahweh to light them, if Ba'al lights his pit he is real and if Yahweh lights His pit He is real.This is something no Christian would do today because it would never work because it is a fair experiment that actually makes sense. Christians would say God does not like to be tested by unbelievers today... I thought God does not change? Why did He like being tested by unbelievers back then?And Elijah mocks the Ba'alites and insults them and laughs at them and Yahweh sends fire down to light His pit, allegedly. And allegedly the unbelievers saw it.Then Elijah orders all the witnesses to be killed, that seems a little suspicious???????????? If Elijah let them live maybe they would have written about it which would support the authenticity of the experiment. So God allowed Elijah to test Him before unbelievers and then Elijah killed all the witnesses so we have no outside records that this event actually happened? Why did the Jewish God liberally prove He is real so many times plainly in the ancient times, but nobody documented it, except the Jews?Lol.
This is probably (?) a retelling of Chryses and the plague from Apollo in the Iliad. To summarize,>Chryses, priest of Apollo, attempts to recover his daughter by ransom and threatening Apollo will send a plague on the Greek camp, where dogs and cattle and humans all live together (ie there is a lot of poop) and it has recently rained. When Agamemnon refuses the ransom, Chryses, knowing that the sun will putrefy the filthy water, predicts a plague, since he, as priest of a solar god, understands the effect of the sun on general health. (This is basically three thousand year old germ theory).In the narrative with Elijah, who is a priest/prophet of YHWH, who is originally a Canaanite storm deity, announces a drought (1 Kings 17), which is not difficult if you study storms, and then is told by the Lord that rain will soon come (Ch 18), which is again not difficult for a priest of a storm god. Elijah challenges the priests of Baal to summon fire from the sky (lightning, which would accompany the return of the rain), and he has the priests of Baal go first, which means he chooses the time of their attempt. They spend they day calling to their god because it is not yet time for the storm to arrive. When it is finally time for the storm to come, around evening, which is probably when the weakening sunlight allows the movement of the new front, Elijah prepares for fire to come down from heaven. Importantly, Elijah repairs the altar of YHWH that predates the altar to Baal, and therefore almost certainly on the highest point of the mountain peak, as the place of honor, which is the place lightning is most likely to strike. Then a bunch of rain starts falling, and Elijah kills the rival priests so they cannot spill his secrets. The retarded masses believe the miracle.tldr: exploitation of basic knowledge about the natural world convinces people deities exist
>let me use logic to disprove the bible!what is it 2012
>>25509154Yawn
Should this even be allowed on /lit/? Religious debate is definitely not literature. Philosophy isn't either. I feel when people started focusing on these is the moment when this board really went off the rails.
>>25509519No.
>>25509154>1 Kings 18A beautiful example of a Theophany in the Old Testament.I won't refute meticulously your silly nonsense tonight but I always appreciate when an atheist showcases a verse of the Bible which proves it true in an attempt to disprove it. Maybe tomorrow> I thought God does not change?Doing something then not doing it again is not change.>Why did He like being tested by unbelievers back then?Nothing indicates that. This is akin to saying "if God spoke to Moses through the bush, why doesn't He do it again?". You think you've come across some profound critique where in fact you're just saying the same oldMaybe tomorrow I'll give a more detailed response, not that you seem particularly interested in meaningful discussion>>25509494picrel reddit stuff
>>25509154Interesting passage anon, thanks for recomminding to me. Truly, magic can only come from God.
>>25509154>I thought God does not change? Why did He like being tested by unbelievers back then?God doesn't change. Humanity changes, so the acts of God are naturally contextual. How He may act in [situation 1] versus [situation 2] can differ without His essence fundamentally changing. Also, your description of the book of kings is retarded. The test had nothing to do with whether Ba'al or Yahweh are real or not.
>>25509519>If you want to discuss history, religion, or the humanities, go to /his/.I don't wanna badmouth the jannies of this board who have never rightfully or wrongfully banned me but idk why they don't follow their own rules.
>>25509519why are you in every single thread like a janny you fucking piece of shit? shut the fuck up janny
>>25509154>DEUS VULT
>>25509154koran is much worse op get a clue
>>25509154lmao God doesn't show you any signs of his existence? poor soul
>>25509534It's a perfectly valid question. Why does god not reveal himself anymore? Why do we just have to take the bible at face value when previous generations ostensibly received signs (according to the bible)? It's a reasonable question to ask because pretty much every denomination has a different answer, so it's very much not a settled issue.
>>25509854Being a shepherd at that exact location 2000 years ago must have been sweet. Epiphanies left right and centre. They had it pretty easy when it came to Faith, you know, what with being personal mates with Jesus Christ and watching him do all those miracles, and hearing God speak in the clouds and stuff. Not much of a challenge to be rewarded with infinite heaven under the circumstances. Kind of like the boomers of their generation. Then again, imagine its a drizzly 10AD day and you are some poor Roman soldier standing on a wall looking over at a boggy old ditch by the Rhine. Sorry you didn't get posted to Palestine, Lucius, it's eternal torment for you! Lol
>>25509886>back in my day we all believed. none of this maybe-so crapola. you youngins need to git you some faith>you didn't experience all those miracles? fuck you, i got mineReturning to the topic of /lit/erature, Meredith Kline is one of the major exponents of covenant theology or supersessionism that attempts to justify how and why god's behavior changed over time in relation to human beings. You can find one of his major works here https://web.archive.org/web/20100314065633/http://www.covopc.org/Kline/By_Oath_Consigned.html
>>25509541Apologetics are so cucked beyond beliefIf you need to become master of debate and platonic style arguments to justify all the dumb shit in the Bible you know it's fucked.
>>25509886Funny that you compare the people of Jerusalem who did witness miracles and did see God and still disbelieved and crucified Him- with the boomers who could have bought a house every 2 years on their salaries but instead settled for one and pissed the rest away at Woodstock, and now rot in the hell that is casinos.>>25509854As I've said above and as the Bible itself says, miracles will not be enough to turn disbelievers into believers. Yours is simply arbitrary criteria which I doubt you will allow to be disproven. I'm not convinced that you wouldn't dismiss any sort of miracle by calling it a fraud or find a materialistic explanation for it- as has happened with the Resurrection.
>>25509941>If you need to become master of debate and platonic style arguments to justify all the dumb shit in the Bible you know it's fucked.Hey guess what dumb fuck, logic and argumentation are required to justify literally every claim in the world
>>25509534It’s slightly incredible that your entire image manages to be incorrect at once. Not a single accurate data point
>>25509154Saw you post this on /v/ earlier. Did your gay thread get shoved over to /lit/ or are you evading a ban right now?
>>25509941Eristic apologetics is where its at.
>>25509154>hintsAnd there's where your argument went out the window.Anon, plz
>>25509961>miracles will not be enough to turn disbelievers into believersif someone was walking around some thickly settled area today performing miracles and I witnessed one of those miracles with my own eyes, I would believe they are capable of performing miracles. Hearing thirdhand that some guy performed miracles thousands of years ago is not quite as convincing, and having someone tell me that hearing thirdhand that someone performed miracles thousands of years ago is enough for them to believe that said person is god in the flesh makes me think of the person telling me this as extremely gullible
>>25510320>If someone was walking around some thickly settled area today spontaneously generating entire universes from absolute nothing and I witnessed one of those creations with my own eyes, I would believe they are capable of generating universes. Hearing thirdhand that the entire cosmos exploded into existence from a singularity 13 billion years ago is not quite as convincing, and having someone tell me that hearing thirdhand about that alleged explosion is enough for them to treat it as settled fact and the literal origin of all reality makes me think of the person telling me this as extremely gullible.
>>25510369Nice strawman, retard. Lmao
>>25509595Lol.
There is a lot of cope in this thread but nobody explained why God lit a fire in front of 450 disbelievers and then Elijah killed all the witnesses so there are no unbiased accounts of the story, and God does not do such things today for disbelievers when He seemed to not mind being tested back then. Lol.
>>25510382 >StrawmanThat's just you anon.See how easily your retarded argument was flipped against you? Think libtard think!
>>25510416>nobody explained why God lit a fire in front of 450 disbelieversWeird thing to focus on.Especially since it's a literal nothing burger.Anyways, Christ is King
>>25509534You're my favorite new anon on this godforsaken board. Keep up fighting the good fight.
>>25510416God was more inclined to prove himself back then because most people were ignorant of him, not just disbelievers. Not so today, where the only who have never heard of YHWH might be the Sentinelese.
>>25509854>Why does god not reveal himself anymore?Because every time someone says they’ve seen God, Jesus, Mary, Vishnu, an angel, or whatever else, you people tell them they’re crazy, schizophrenic, hallucinating, or need to be put on medication. Lol.
>>25510579Interesting. Now let's see suicide rates in various religious beliefs and atheism. If you're so smart, why do you keep killing yourselves and making people who loved you miserable? Doesn't sound very intelligent.
>>255104162012 called
Test
>god himself>the literal big G God tells you, explicitly, "do not look back at Sodom">it could not be any more clearSo what does Lots wife do, what does she FUCKING DO
>>25509961>I'm not convinced that you wouldn't dismiss any sort of miracle by calling it a fraud or find a materialistic explanation for it- as has happened with the Resurrection.Yes that would be the reasonable thing to do considering the fact that ressurection is impossible. But also I'd be pretty convinced if I saw a dead man walking
>>25509154How often does this need to be explained to atheist midwits? The OT of the Bible is the collected mythology of a bronze age middle eastern tribe and how their local thunder deity Yawhwe became synonymous to the later omnipotend God of Christianity. It is not a factual recollection of real events but a compilation of myths and legends written by lots of different authors meant to impart wisdom and guidance to their people in the form of allegories. Why do you not have the intellectual capacity to understand this? Why do atheists always argue like they are 5 year olds? "Hurrr man in sky on page 233 said one thing but then man in sky on page 562 said other thing."
>>25510888Yeah but have you considered that retarded American Evangelical grifters have said that you should understand the Bible literally therefore Christianity is stupid checkmate theists.
I liked the parts where people are having the old in out in out with prostitutes and or their daughters
>>25510320>>25510856>Yes that would be the reasonable thing to do considering the fact that ressurection is impossibleAhah, well, there you go...I suppose I could point you to many miracles- whether mundane ones like the Church persisting despite years of persecution and spreading not through sword like Islam but through martyrdom- or supernatural ones, like Incorruptibility, and you'd deny the "miracle status" of all of them. Similarly, I'm sure you'd find hand waves for "dead men walking" just as people did 2000 years ago.As for the response I said I'd give last last night, I'll say that public revelation stopped with Christ because through Him was revealed the fullness of what God had meant to reveal. Miracles were needed in the time of Moses to preserve the true religion and today, they are not.
>>25510888Idk man, why do people never actually read what they claim to believe in? The OT is a very precise and thorough list of the Hebrew people's and their tribes, complimented with a long list of very precise instructions on what offerings and prayers they should offer for certain transgressions. You can trace the lineage of the leaders of the jews using it, it's insane and a modern cope to claim its some collection fo stories left open to interpretation.
>>25511211Do you have tourettes or something? Maybe a growing brain tumor?
>>25510888>>25511211.t
>>25509154>Godjak thread complaining about Christianity (again)>"Lol." shoved at the end of his posts.I recognize this poster.
>>25510845Depression and suicidal thoughts correlate with high IQ.
>>25511211You type like an underage retard. No reply needed.
>>25509154You're gay.
>>25511748Looks like IQ is a flawed measurement of ones intelligence. Suffering and killing yourself is stupid.>>25511756High IQ doesn't automatically make you wise. This sounds like backwards logic anyway. Like you're establishing that life is objectively senseless and meaningless by saying that "smart people" think it is. Plenty of intelligent people have reached completely different conclusions about the meaning of life. You're basically assuming nihilism is true and then using agreement with nihilism as evidence of intelligence.Besides, being miserable isn't evidence that you've understood life better than everyone else.
anon elijah was chosen to be gods prophet. God also reveals himself directly for the benefit of the apostles etc. in the new testament and various prophets. youre talking about a special circumstance that isnt the norm
