Aurei velleris editio>τὸ πρότερον νῆμα·>>25494756>Μέγα τὸ Ἑλληνιστί/Ῥωμαϊστί·https://mega dot nz/folder/FHdXFZ4A#mWgaKv4SeG-2Rx7iMZ6EKw>Mέγα τὸ ANE·https://mega dot nz/folder/YfsmFRxA#pz58Q6aTDkwn9Ot6G68NRg>Work in progress FAQhttps://rentry dot co/n8nrkoAll Classical languages are welcome.
for Greekanons
And remember, kids>>25498242
>>25518868That's why I'm just a hobbyist and not a latinist. Let's get to it boys.
Huh, neat, it's another continuation of the Eutropius->Paulus Diaconus tradition, Andrea wrote an additional chunk running up to 877 to the history of the lombards documenting their fall. Now that Eutropius is done, and with this being read, Paulus Diaconus is calling to me.
Reposting my question from the last thread: if any Anon has self-studied Akkadian and/or Sumerian, I'd like to hear their experiences.
>>25518846Τύχῃ 'μαυτὸν παραδίδωμι
>>25519661>Aristarchusfiltered, even if you studied math like I did the Greek terminology has to be studied on its own, hard to understand perfectly for a casual paragraph of readinggigabrained guys though for the time, he had the calculation for the distance of the earth from the sun down in terms of math but off in terms of observational data(he says between 18 and 20 times the distance of the earth from the moon because he couldn't measure a key angle right)
crazy how Milton just writes like Virgil but in English
ODI GRAECOSOn a less serious note, it’s interesting how Greek identity, at least in a Roman’s view, shifted over time such that when a Roman complains about Greeks he specifically focuses on Syria. It makes me wonder how many Greeks really settled there, and how Hellenized the locals really were.
Furthermore, even the Roman dislike of “Greece” in the 2nd century has a lot to do with engaging with a “late stage” greek culture, which is maybe how a Roman could at once admire Pericles and Plato but despise the hellenized east.
>>25520427Hellas itself was demographically swallowed by the east it conquered; for good reasons almost every dialect in mainland and magna Graecia got replaced by variants of Koine bar Tsakonian, even in south Italy I seem to remember besides some archaisms Griko is mostly classified as Koine derived
>>25519237quaeque fortuna mihi deliget legam accipiens
>>25520427>Quamvis quota portio faecis Achaei?Isn't a distinction being made here between actual Greeks and the rest of the Eastern world?
>>25520507>STARET in arbusto dum simia more uetusto,>Arte uidet serrae pro consuetudine terrae>Grande procul scindi robur super ardua Pindi:>Protinus affectat, dum tale quid inuida spectat;>Cominus accessit, mox sector ut inde recessit,>Incubuitque super temptatque, quod hic quoque nuper,>Dumque sedendo secat lignum, quod forte patebat,>Testiculos rima concluserat eius in ima.>Quod cum nesciret, sectorque repente ueniret,>Surgere conatur; sed rimula clausa moratur.>Huius namque modi specie se nescia prodi,>Sic inopinato perimi nec credula fato,>Proicie[n]s extra cuneum, femur angit et exta,>Liquerat inmissum quem truncum sector in ipsum.oof madone
>>25520611Medievals are just goated like that
One of my favorite motifs in the Aeneid is the characterization of the Trojans as flamboyant Easterners. When Ascanius is told to play the tambourine and boxwood drum of Cybele here, it's especially biting because priests of the goddess were often eunuchs: He's essentially being told, "Leave the fighting to the men; you don't have the balls to be here!"
Theodosius I was rightly named Great in his own time. Gets a bad rap.
>>25520547I get how it could be read this way. Seems fair. But it seems too abrupt a change for the section and context.
>>25520668The "chordas obliquas" and "tympana" refer to Eastern instruments, while the "mitra" was common to both Greek and Easterners. Add also the fact that Juvenal explicitly uses the word "Syrus" as his starting point.To me, it seems that lines 61-66 are an aside describing all the Eastern elements that are entering Rome through Greece, whereas the elements of actual Greek culture are resumed in line 67.I don't know how else to construe "quamvis quota portio faecis Achaei" if this is not the case.
>>25520668>>25520694Oh and also, we have this a bit later:>in summa non Maurus erat neque Sarmata nec Thrax>qui sumpsit pinnas, mediis sed natus Athenis.So it seems that Juvenal does explicitly recognize a distinction between Greeks and other Easterners. Whether he would conflate Greeks and Syrians specifically is harder to determine, I admit.
>>25520694>>25520701>I don't know how else to construe "quamvis quota portio faecis Achaei" if this is not the case.I’m not even sure what we disagree on except maybe how much juvenal conflates vs separates the two. Since you can’t see how it could be interpreted any other way I won’t try to convince you.
>>25520770in your original post, you imply that Romans conflated Greek and Syrians. I claim that this is not necessarily the case.As for the line>Quamvis quota portio faecis Achaei?I maintain that Juvenal is here introducing an aside in which he describes specifically Syrian things that have flooded into Rome. These Greek and Syrian cultural elements constitute the "faex" that Juvenal is describing. It is a "faex" that is in actuality made up of a smaller amount of genuine Greeks than one might expect; that is the point of the rhetorical question.When I said that I can think of no other way to construe the line in this context, I was inviting your interpretation of it.
>>25519711I kneel
>>25520779>a sandwich with Greece as bread and Syria for meat, ne’er shall the two meet
>>25520992Yes, because such a structure would be totally unheard of in Latin satire.What do you think the line means?
>>25520992Ryberg, Inez Scott. The Relations of the Satires of Juvenal to the Rhetorical Theories of the Grand Style., 1924. Page 99:>Juvenal personifies the river to represent the people, as does Virgil Aen. VIII, 728...R. A. LaFleur. "Umbricius and Juvenal 3," 1979, pg. 422 not. 123 concurs with the above.LCL91's introductory note to this poem says:>Then he complains that true Romans like himself are ousted by foreigners, especially, but not exclusively, Greeks (58–125).And Juvenal would have reason to insert such an aside because it's an echo of Lucan's Bellum Civile 7.404-5:>nulloque frequentem >cive suo Romam sed mundi faece repletamSeeing these lines as a description of Syrians, not Greeks, is the most obvious interpretation.
>>25518843>>Work in progress FAQ>https://rentry dot co/n8nrkoWhoever in charge of FAQ, please add https://github.com/eggrobin/Enmerkar - IME input for cuneiform languages under Sumerian/Akkadian.>>25519418>Reposting my question from the last thread: if any Anon has self-studied Akkadian and/or Sumerian, I'd like to hear their experiences.I have dabbled a tiny little bit in both of them. Not enough to hold any meaningful opinion, rather impressions. >>25517834>I've seen learning Akkadian being compared to learning Japanese (when coming from a western European language), I wonder how much truth there is there.Kinda in the sense that Akkadian does use Sumerian logograms for meaning instead of pronunciation, like, for example 𒈗 LUGAL 'king' which is read as sharrum in Akkadian or unpronounceablebut I don't know the relative proportion of the syllabic and logographic characters in Akkadian.>I was also wondering how difficult learning Akkadian first, then Sumerian would be, and how long it would take, if the expected level of proficiency is being able to follow along a text with facing translation without looking up every single word. Do you mean scientifically transcribed text or actual tablets? Either way I assume never since incomplete language reconstructions presupposes a degree of uncertainty/\.\\\..
>>25520997>>25521034Yeah. :^)
>>25521190>Yeah. :^)He's right, though.
>>25521209This but unironically :^)
>>25521278>A Greek Rome. Yet what fraction of these dregs is truly Greek?https://antigonejournal.com/2026/05/urban-satire-juvenal-3/(link for commentary, translation and its source)
>>25521113added under extra, thanks friend
>>25521113>Do you mean scientifically transcribed text or actual tablets? Either way I assume never since incomplete language reconstructions presupposes a degree of uncertainty/\.\\\..Well, more like being able to follow along something like this, I guess:https://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/As things stand I'd be tempted to go for Sumerian directly, but I every source I have looked at suggests learning Akkadian first--which makes sense, but together they'd take me a couple of decades at least, and I feel like my motivation to learn Sumerian would be much stronger.
>>25521375Yeah that’s what I’m saying silly -_-
It's up:EasyDon't question me!We must find out why it happened.That fisherman's prices are outrageous!MediumI'm not even sure I could do it myself.Wolves have been attacking our cattle despite the new fencing.Regardless of his usually contrarian opinion, I'm willing to give it a try.HardWithout a moment of hesitation, seeing that after the arrival of his target the room was almost free of guards, he let go of the previously loaded poisonous arrow that had been sitting in his quiver for months, waiting for the right chance to strike, and as the bow, stretched to its maximum, mercilessly flung its projectile through the air, a deafening thunder could be heard in the sky.
>>25520668>/clg/ tries textual criticism
>>25521771μή μου κατηγόρει!ἐξευρετέον ἡμῖν τίνος χάριν ἐγένετοτὤνια ἐκείνου τοῦ ἁλιέως ἀξιοῦνται πολλῷ ὑπερμέτρως!οὐκ οἶδα σαφῶς εἰ αὑτὸς οἷός τ' εἰμὶ κραίνειν τοῦτολύκοι εἰώθασιν εἰς τὰ πρόβατα ἡμῶν εἰσπίπτειν ὀλιγωροῦντες τοῦ νέου ἕρκουςἀμελὴς τῆς μελλούσης ἀποφάναι ὡς εἴωθεν δόξης πειράσω ἄσμενοςἄοκνος καὶ γνοὺς σχεδόν τι ἀφύλακτον ὄν τὸ μέγαρον ἀφιγμένου τοῦ 'μέλλεν ἀπολλύναι ἀφῆκε τὸν ἤδη ἐπὶ νευρῇ κατακεκοσμημένον ἰόβολον ὀϊστὸν τὸν μῆνας ἐν τῇ φαρέτρᾳ ἐκεῖτο φυλάσσοντα τὸν καιρὸν καί, ἄρδην τεταμένου τοῦ τόξου ῥίπτοντος τὸ δι' ἀέρος ἐπιπτησόμενον βόλος, ἦν παταχοῦ ἀκούειν κτύπος μέγας οὐρανόθεν γενεμένου
>>25522057Yeah :^) I shitpost in little gaps in work so it’s not always effortposting
>I was only pretending to be retarded
>>25521629>Well, more like being able to follow along something like this, I guess:Well, I used to study Arabic so Akkadian grammar is easy for me to get. On the other hand ergativity in Sumerian is nothing I've encountered previously, so I spent almost an entire day on Hayes' book first lesson to absorb it.>As things stand I'd be tempted to go for Sumerian directly, but I every source I have looked at suggests learning Akkadian firstI don't quite see the argument why. It's the same as if to learn Chinese you first need to learn Japanese which is nonsense. Both are complex languages. Akkadian is better reconstructed, and has a larger corpus, but other than if you feel motivated, go for Sumerian.
>>25522206Why are you still angry about whatever anon did to upset you
>>25522236>na>niNani?
>>25522236Thanks.>and has a larger corpusI wonder though, do you have something at hand that actually quantifies the size of the amount of literature that came down to us for either language? If I look at Wikipedia (hardly an academic source, I know) it almost looks like Sumerian has more literature than Akkadian
>>25522423There is this paper that provides data on Oracc corpus by language varieties (excluding Old and Middle Assyrian due to insufficiently large corpus size).https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334600248_Language_and_Dialect_Identification_of_Cuneiform_Texts
>>25520770>Since you can’t see how it could be interpreted any other wayCould you provide a translation/paraphrasis?
>>25522623No
Ecce vidi magnam copiam puerorum "sex septem" conclamantium."Quid hercle agitis?""Auram serimus"Quid faciendum est, sodales? Non enim mihi licet pueros verberare.
>>25522972>is nescitNoli sollicitari, senex.
>>25522972Responsum teneo quod est facetum valde: "Iam causam ridendi intellego: sex septem timet eo quod septem novem comedit!"
>>25523070Quid ain'? Fortasse iocum bararum est; non Latine intelligitur.
>>25523112Ratio ioci facile intellegitur. "Comedit" et "octo" auribus sonant aequale.
I’m trying to come up with some easy way to remember definite articles in AG. What I came up with is to form sentences that follow this Nom Acc Dat structure for say only masculine singular nouns, and so on (gonna plow through Gen individually). Can someone please tell if the sentence like this is grammatically correct, so that I can form others in similar fashion?ὁ στρατηγός τον στρατός προς τῷ ποταμός αγειAlternatively, are there existing phrases like that so that I don’t need to invent the bicycle?
>>25523211Miri sunt Anglice loquentes qui ita opinantur! Unde, nisi apud barbaros loca septentrionalia colentes, istaec ratio inveniretur?
>>25523331ὁ στρατηγός(Nom.Sg.) τὸν στρατηγόν(Acc.Sg.) προς τὸν ποταμόν(Acc.Sg. since προς denotes motion towards the river in your example. Dative.Sg. would've implied they are by the side of the river) ἄγει(always remember the rough breathing mark at the start of a word. It is not optional for Ancient Greek).
>>25523331The nouns need to be declined as well, not just their articles:ὁ στρατηγὸς τὸν στρατὸν πρὸς τῷ ποταμῷ ἄγει.Also, while the above sentence is grammatical, the word πρὸς should be followed by the accusative if you mean to say "to/towards the river."
>>25523376>>25523385Thank you! Definitely need to look up the corresponding endings.
>>25523385But then is there any other preposition or other way to add Dative?
>>25523394You could say παρὰ τῷ ποταμῷ, "beside the river."
>>25518843Greeks also invented homos so.. write that down in greek
>>25523394You can simply change the verb so that your intended format works out. ὁ στρατηγὸς πρὸς τῷ ποταμῷ τὸν στρατὸν βλέπεı
>>25523211>"Comedit" et "octo" auribus sonant aequalecerritust hic
>>25522845Why not? You posted a piece of text you couldn't understand, didn't you? You should show some gratitude to the anon who provided a proper translation and commentary.
>>25524031Huh?
>>25521771Fac ne me in dubium voces!Cur factum sit quaerendust nobis.Pretia illiusce piscatoris vesano digna!Possim ipse efficere haud pro certo habeo.Quamquam praesidio septa lupi haud arcentur quin armenta adoriantur nostra.Conatum faciam libenter parvi pendens eius ut solet negaturi sententiam.Certior factus post adventum eius quem interimere propositum erat fere expers satellitibus esse conclave, nulla ei mora sagittam intendit iam antea adductam venenoque imbutam quae in pharetra menses recondita erat opportunitatem opperiens atque, cum maxime arcus immitem suum telum emitteret per aerem summe inflexus, fragore obtundente intonuit polus.
From Publilius Syrus>Aetas cinaedum celat, aetas indicat>Age hides the f*ggot, age discloses himWhat the hell does he mean by this? Is it some sort of double entendre?
>>25524412one edition I looked up instead of the two aetas has as primary reading, perhaps making it even better, astus and aestusbut I can't read this critical apparatus shit
>>25524501The edition I'm reading, Meyer, gives that possibility as well, but as an emendation by Woelfflin, not present in any manuscript; other options read aestate(m), astute, etc. There are several readings for cinaedus as well. But since Meyer doesn't mark this verse as corrupt I was wondering if it could be understood in some funny way instead.
>>25524557seems so yeah, I tried looking up supposedly the oldest (proper) editio princeps by erasmus an he reads(unless I'm mistaken)>astute dum celatur, se aetas indicat
>>25524412I think for lower class males of a young age, taking the receptive role in sex wouldn't necessarily give him the label of "cinaedus." Therefore, his age hides his faggotry. If he continues to take the receiving end into adulthood, then his age gives him away as a cinaedus. This is all a guess.
chapter 39 of LLPSI is pretty good, one of the best ones so far. I wonder how heavily adapted Vergil here is
>>25524588>astute dum celatur, se aetas indicathow is it even possible for a verse to show this much variation>>25524694It makes perfect sense, thanks. It sounds very "Greek", I wonder if this verse came originally from a palliata.
>>25523457αὐτὸ τοὔνομα κίναιδος τὸ αίσχροῖς προσῆκεν οἱ τῶν γλωττῶν ἐπιστήμονες τὰ πόλλα βάρβαρον ἡγοῦνται λέξιν πάλαι ἐκ τῶν Πελασγῶν ἢ τῶν ἐν Ἀσίᾳ ἐνοικούντων δεδεγμένην
not that well versed in manuscript orthography, but I was going over a couple digitized folios of Plato's Phaedo hosted by the Bodleian:>https://digital.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/objects/f57d074b-cff1-4172-8236-797c7b8f0403/surfaces/1bfee2e3-f909-4364-a125-16bc49470908/>fol. 40vin the 19th line from the top it includes picrel. of course one's sense of proper orthography is relative, but the ending to me looks like -ου, not -α, as you would expect for the vocative (ὦ σιμμία). I think the more reasonable assumption is that the scribe just writes word-final alpha in such a way that it looks like an upsilon attached to an omicron. what do you guys think?
So finally I finished my dare I saw paradigm of definite articles for every gender and number sans Genitive. Hopefully some kind anon looks at these and tells if they make any sense.ὁ στρατηγὸς τὸν στρατὸν παρὰ τῷ ποταμῷ ἄγει.ἡ κόρη την επιστολήn ἐν τῇ κώμῃ φέρει τό ᾰ̓́στρον τό φῶς ἀνά τῷ γῇ φέρειοἱ ἀδελφοί τους ίππους παρὰ τοις συμμαχοις αγουσι αἱ θεαί τᾱ́ς ᾰ̓ρετᾱ́ς παρὰ ταις κώμαις πέμπουσῐ τα πνεύμᾰτᾰ τα σπέρμᾰτᾰ ἀμφί τοις ᾰ̓́γκεσῐ φερουσι
>>25526874interesting, you can compare with other final alphas in the dialogue(red lines) and he does like to give it a pretty tall right leg, but on the other hand the ου(blue lines) he seems to separate quite neatlyone thing I noticed though is that he clearly seems to write τοῖς ἄλλοις ἀνθρώποις(pink lines) while on e.g wikisource I find τοὺς ἄλλους ἀνθρώπους; I think the latter should be the accurate reading based on the usage of the verb πείθω, which does take the dative but in the middle voice only, IIRC
>>25527224some verb uses are not exactly right, like φέρει ἐν + dative(indicating state rather than movement) can be used more in the sense of carrying/bearing something in e.g a bag you have by you, if you mean to carry a letter to the village/town I don't think ἐν with the verb φέρω works well but you could writeἡ κόρη τὴν ἐπιστολὴν ἐν τῇ πήρᾳ φέρει, πήρα means travel bag, so φέρει here means carryἀνά with dative implying motion is also awkward with φέρω, and γῆ is feminine, maybe I could write somewhat poeticallyτὸ ἄστρον τὸ φῶς τῷ πεδίῳ παρέχει (the star bestows/gives light to the field)fourth one is fine I thinkfifth I'm not sure what you meant to writesixth I think is also fine in the sense of the seeds being moved/spread around a specific area with no specific direction
>>25527372Thank you so much, anon!Fifth one was supposed to be to the effect of “Goddesses send blessings to the villages”
>>25527383try perhapsαἱ γυναῖκες τὰς θεὰς ταῖς σπονδαῖς ἱλάσκονται(the women appease the goddesses with libations)
>>25527391Oh yeah, your example comes together much nicer. εὐχᾰρῐστέω!
>>25527329>interesting, you can compare with other final alphas in the dialogue(red lines) and he does like to give it a pretty tall right leg, but on the other hand the ου(blue lines) he seems to separate quite neatlyyeah I should've just kept looking for other word-final alphas, but you're right (e.g. the ἀλλα πείσθε you underlined). good eye.>one thing I noticed though is that he clearly seems to write τοῖς ἄλλοις ἀνθρώποις(pink lines) while on e.g wikisource I find τοὺς ἄλλους ἀνθρώπους; I think the latter should be the accurate reading based on the usage of the verb πείθω, which does take the dative but in the middle voice only, IIRCthis is interesting, and I'm not quite sure what's going on. at first I thought you were right - and you still could be; again I'm a novice regarding manuscripts - but I wonder whether this is simply the scribe's particular ductus with not only upsilon + sigma combinations, but such a combination where sigma is word-final. for instance, in your picrel, a line above the last underlined line, there's αὐτοὺς. now, it does kinda look like -οὶς, but I actually suspect it's just υ fixed together with σ. for contrast, also looking at your picrel, the last word partially underlined in navy blue, παροῦσαν. so I wonder whether it's just a sort of allograph.
>>25527439you are right it's as you say, I checked the page before to find a proper τοῖς αὐτοῖς and it's written differently not to mention the accents correspond
νωλεμέως is the best ancient greek word
>>25527463wherefore?
>>25527467sounds nice
>>25527456also worth mention, I guess, that he seems to not use the subscript iota at least for ῳ but writes ωι
>>25527470>>25527456nice find. in retrospect the best thing to do there would in fact be to see where we know αυτοις or some dative plural was written and compare them. and yeah in 40v one of the lines towards the latter half of the folio starts with χρόνῳ but it's written χρόνωι. I actually do remember hearing that that was not uncommon. I'm pretty sure I've seen classical epigraphs showing the same thing. it's called iota adscript.
>>25527479I was under the impression rather that post classical it became standard to use the subscript iota in manuscripts and the adscript came back when mechanical printing became normal but was still more economical to write it to the side rather than have to make more complex fixed characters with all the fancy diacritics
>>25527482perhaps that's true, I'd have to look into it more, but the question would be when subscript became the norm. from a brief search it apparently started being used in the 12th century, and this manuscript of Plato is from the end of the 9th. so assuming the former periodization is right we should actually expect adscript here - and it's what we see.
>>25527463is it because it fits the hexameter? ngl once you learn it by heart words that fit the pattern gain a better soundI like νεφεληγερέτης
>>25527487out of curiosity I checked the codex vaticanus and looked for some subscript iotas and it doesn't even look like they were using them in it, kinda interesting the variation there is>ἐὰν προσαγάγῃ δῶρα τῷ κυρίῳ ἀπὸ τῶν κτηνῶν
>>25527513original
>>25527516>>25527513interesting. I found this, which I think explains it.>Introduction to Attic Greek (Mastronarde), Second Edition>Unit One>The Alphabet; Pronunciation>7. Historical Notes>Long diphthongs and the silent iota. The term long diphthong used in connection with ᾳ, ῃ, or ῳ is slightly misleading: all diphthongs are normally long vowels, but the three long diphthongs are formed from the combination of a long vowel and an iota. In classical times these were true diphthongs (long alpha gliding into iota, eta gliding into iota, omega gliding into iota), but between the fourth and second centuries b.c.e. the iota weakened to a mere glide (like a consonantal y-sound) and then came not to be pronounced at all (hence the modern pronunciation and the term silentiota sometimes applied to this letter). The practice of writing a small iota under the vowel (called iota subscript: ᾳ, ῃ, ῳ) was developed in the Middle Ages and has been followed in most printed texts, though you will also eventually encounter texts with the iota written after the long vowel (called iota adscript: αι, ηι, ωι). In antiquity the adscript iota was always present when still pronounced (as in classical inscriptions), but once the letter became silent many writers simply omitted it. Inclusion of the silent iota was a mark of someone who had been trained to include it, in the same way that writers of English need to be trained to spell words with letters that are no longer pronounced.
>>25527531phonetically I was aware of this but didn't realize it took all the way to the middle ages to rekindle the missing iota in writing I thought it was one of those alexandrine inventions
>>25527490no I just like the way it soundsI am going to use it in my daily speech (I am greek) from now on
Sometimes I enjoy looking at small critical notes made by philologists, and I'm often surprised at how many clever emendations are never published in full articles.For example, in the text of Julius Rufinianus, a 4th-century teacher of rhetoric, an illustration of a rhetorical figure in Vergil is introduced by saying,>ut Vergilius Aeneidos primo, "sequere Italiam ventis, pete regna per undas."The problem is that this quotation actually comes from Aeneid book 4, not book 1 as it says. So what happened?The line in Vergil's Aeneid 4.381 begins, "i, sequere Italiam..." and a scribe mistook "i," the imperative of "ire," as an abbreviation of "Aeneidos primo" and wrote it in its full, expanded form.I love stuff like this.
Do any of you know where to get started with classical Arabic?
>>25527805Arabic in particular, but I and other anons could help you out at the meta level: how much you should focus on grammar, vocab study, native material, etc. of course this all depends on your purpose.
>>25527809>Arabic in particularmeant to include "no" afterwards
>>25527781lol the meter should've helped him there
>>25527835To be fair to this anonymous scribe, rhetoricians often excerpted incomplete lines from poets for their exempla.
>>25527805Introduction to Koranic and Classical Arabic by wheeler thackston
I think it makes sense to just read Old English in Modern English reflexes. Maybe that's just 'cause Classical Chinese was the first classical language I learned, and in that basically everyone reads texts in their modern pronunciation and reconstructed pronunciation is nothing more than a philological curiosity.
Hi. sinoanon from a few years back here. I made the chart you guys still use.I have come back from the ER with scans "highly suspicious" of lung cancer. I'm young and I've never even smoked. This has been shocking.I'm going to say that from this vantage point, my time here doesn't seem wasted, and that if my final diagnosis allows it, I'm going to try and actually get into academia.You're a talented lot and I hope most of you don't let the dumb little rituals of standard breadwinning adulthood hold you back as I let them hold me back. All of that seems so silly now.
>>25528567Thank you for all that you've done, sinoanaon! May you live your life to the fullest. I'm rooting for you!
>>25528567damn sorry to hear that, I've been in this general for years and classical chinese anons in general have always been top notch and you in particular, since I guess you have also helped with the FAQ
>>25528567Hope it’s a false alarm or it’s an early catch anon.
>>25528567I wish you all the best, sinoanon!
>>25528530I tried doing this for Middle English because a lot normies seem to do something similar while reading Chaucer, but I even found that difficult. I've always treated Old English as a separate language entirely.
>>25529401Yeah I tried something like that with Chaucer and for some chunks it was great since it made the parts that are identical to modern English more transparent but at times it felt kind of silly.
Frankly, all native English speakers should engage with Middle English a bit, and so there’s nothing wrong with not trying to turn every line into a linguistic exercise and instead pronouncing it roughly modern with exceptions where it’s natural to do so.Overly focusing on reconstruction has a way of hurting part of the goal for a normal person engaging with the literature, i.e. connection with their heritage and culture. Sure, Shakespeare was performed in a very different accent originally, but it doesn’t seem right to tell audiences they should go watch a reconstruction instead of a normal performance just to be more, idk, “realistic?”
>>25528567
>>25515757With 3rd conj. -io verbs one may need know the accent other than the first person as well. For example, expédio: expédit or éxpedit? concútio, cóncutit or concútit etc.
I'll stick to Fagles and Fitzgerald, but this is a cool thread. keep up your studies, anons
>>25529863Gratias tibi ago, atque exopto ut tibi quoque studia feliciter vertant, Anonyme.
>>25529858wait a sec... I just realized... aren't all 1st person 3rd conj. -io verbs without prefixes anapestic? (short short long)Can someone think of a counterexample?If that's true you can predict their accent pattern as well.
>>25529894Your describing an effect of Osthoff's Law: Long vowels shorten when they are followed by a resonant (sonorant) and another consonant in the same syllable, and the -io ending was *-jo in PIE.
>>25529950Oh and also 3rd conjugation verbs in Latin were just generally formed from zero-grade roots in PIE, which had short vowels in the stem
>literally the very first word of the Hebrew Bible is a matter of controversy because it says "in a beginning" instead of "in the beginning"
>>25530143Couldn't the first clause also be interpreted as "in the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth", aside from "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"?
>>25530175
>>25529950I'm probably misunderstanding it, but it shouldn't affect verbs like rapio cupio facio iacio fugio etc. since there is another consonant between the vowel and the sonorant, right?
Any of you know where I can find good recordings or RA (or any of the llpsi ancillary volumes)?
>>25531055*of
>>25531055Depends on which pronunciation you want. Via Latina has FR and colloquia personarum on youtube.
>>25531055The most complete set of RA recordings is that of Luke Ranieri.
Guess the language
>>25531539seems to be too close to Latin to be anything but either (very) old Latin or Faliscan I guess
>>25531539It looks like it's just Latin, no?>Qui suis astutiis opeque Vulcani>condecorant saepissime convivia ludosque.
>>25531569>>25531547It is a 2nd century BC Latin inscription using archaizing orthography. It was inscribed on a bronze tablet dedicated to a collegium of Faliscan cooks.
>>25531624kinda crazy how orthography can make it look much older than I first thoughloidos is weird
>>25531382Okay. Where can I find those for free?
>>25531661Gibsmedatfofree, huh? I have recordings (of Roma Aeterna) saved on my end from when he had them posted on his Patreon, but he's since taken them down due to threats from the Orberg estate. I think there's a website someone posted a while back that hosts paywalled Patreon content, but I don't remember what it's called. Maybe someone else could point you in the right direction. Also, check the Reddit Latin Discord. The recordings might be there. I'm banned so I can't check for you.
>>25531661don't take my word for it but I remember some anon in previous threads a while ago that had posted a bunch of LLPSI related links(to audio) not sure if they still existn.b. you can access previous threads and search them on warosu, might want to give it a shot
Anyone here bothered to learn old English?It's the one I seem most likely to do currently.
>>25531769the patreon sharing website that originally had his RA stuff doesn't have anyone to repost his stuff to the new paywall site that came up after the original died, you can see the links and everything but when you try downloading them nothing happens
>>25533138Did you check the Reddit Discord?https://discord.gg/latin
>>25533274Nothing in living memory has caused my hackles to rise more violently than hearing the term "Reddit Discord"
>>25533274yes, those dick sucking homos are in the exact same spot with anyone else wanting to hear that bald fuck's voice narrating that book for free
Genesis 2:23 in the King James translation:>she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.This successfully renders wordplay in the original Hebrew between the word for "man" (ish, אִישׁ) and the word for "woman" (ishah, אִשָּׁה).The Latin Vulgate manages to accommodate this wordplay by substituting a more common word for "woman," such as "mulier," with the hyponym "virago":>haec vocabitur Virago, quoniam de viro sumpta est.In the Septuagint, this wordplay isn't preserved at all:>αὕτη κληθήσεται γυνή, ὅτι ἐκ τοῦ ἀνδρὸς αὐτῆς ἐλήφθη αὕτηIt's really a happy coincidence that it works so well in English.
>>25518843Like my tattoo?
>>25533433mmh, I get the idea, but why an epithet in the accusative case? next to οὖτις which is in the nominative
>>25533428am I getting this wrong or wiktionary says the hebrew wordplay is based on a fake etymology anyway?on a related note, there's a severe lack of hebrewanons ITT despite one assuming after latin and greek anons theirs should be the third most popular ancient language in the west
>>25533449>am I getting this wrong or wiktionary says the hebrew wordplay is based on a fake etymology anyway?You're exactly right. It's a wordplay based on a folk etymology.>on a related note, there's a severe lack of hebrewanons ITT despite one assuming after latin and greek anons theirs should be the third most popular ancient language in the westYeah, I'm new to Hebrew, but I've been having a great time with it. Despite being Semitic language, it shares some surprising similarities with Greek. This gen seems overwhelmingly focused on Latin.
>>25533374Bald man hatred is unfounded, but yeah discord trannies suck.
I'm contemplating ordering the hardback of Hayes' Manual of Sumerian Grammar and Texts 3rd edition and uploading it on the internet since it's not freely available yet unlike the 2nd one. However, with the cost of ordering to Russia accounted for, it costs $124. Having second thoughts.
>δεύτερος is not etymologically related to δύο
>>25533458>Despite being Semitic language, it shares some surprising similarities with Greek.Oh, like what?
since the Languages known as Classical Latin and Ancient Greek are Fixed Sets, what prevents me from simply adding all their Sentence-Members to my Latin and Greek Anki Decks? (or more specifically, the Subsets i'm interested in)did I hack learning Dead Languages? is it really that simple?
>>25534022Do you mean making an Anki deck with every single sentence of surviving Classical Latin? That would be one big Anki deck.
>>25534008>Both have dual number>Hebrew has verbal paradigms that work almost exactly the same as the middle voice in Greek>Similar verbal aspects>Biblical Hebrew has a construction similar to the augment in Greek to indicate past time>Both use definite articles in a similar way: ἡ γῆ ἡ ἀγαθή = הָאָרֶץ הַטּוֹבָה = the-land the-goodAlso, you can find a lot of Greek words of Semitic origin, which is neat.
>>25534024Yes. The Aeneid would be around 10k cards. Maybe one deck per work to make it more manegeable. The interval options should be tweaked to allow such high volume though.
>>25534032At ten cards a day that would be three years just to introduce them all, and that's just for the Aeneid.
>>25534022>what prevents me from simply adding all their Sentence-Members to my Latin and Greek Anki Decks?That would not be my preferred way of taking in the entirety of Classical literature; I'd prefer to read it coherently, but it's up to you.
such high volume would ensure high redundancy (something usually avoided in the anki realm) and therefore higher retrieval rate. intervals should be modified with that in mind
>>25534038>>25534039start: read something, add it to anki automatically (were adding entire sentences, it can be done programmatically and automatically) start next day basically rereading what you read the day before in anki (which is usually advisable anyways) program proper intervals, review a few sentences, goto start;
i don't think it makes much sense to isolate vocab in dead langs, "learning" entire sentences should give a better view of the corpus (or cadaver, itc)
>>25534050>start next day basically rereading what you read the day before in ankiDoes it present each sentence in the same order? If not, the typical benefits of rereading will be lost, and if it did, you might as well just reread the text as normal. You would end up with a very confused understanding of the structures of every work.
>>25534060>Does it present each sentence in the same order?good idea, it should be in the same order at least the first time reviewing itsecond review if the sentence is known would be months after that maybe
>>25534022People still speak and write Latin.
>>25534022The Patralogia Latina collection is 221 volumes of text. But yeah I know you don’t mean non-native stuff or mean something super autistic like not counting any of the native speakers born after Tacitus.There is a decent argument to be made for going a line at a time through a short and lexically narrow work to build a foundation. For example, the gospel of John is like 800 lines, but only has under 2000 unique lemmas, so someone could pretty effectively use the anki deck of the bible, by targeting john, to grind the work out. I know someone made a fully parsed one like this for NT Greek. The main benefit I guess is that it makes progress super easy to review. People also used to memorize book one of de bello gallico for similar reasons, approaches varied and results varied.Flashcarding the entire language is so fucking retarded I don’t even know how to discuss that thoughbeit.
>>25534068Yes exactly what I was saying in my post above, that this already exists for the bible, both in greek and in latin. For something beyond the new testament (under 8000 verses IIRC) it starts to get a little ridiculous, but you could definitely do this for a specific work and do alright.
>>25534068Eccehttps://ankiweb.net/shared/info/2112896148https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/2141885586
Guys, I am rummaging through my grandpa's garage when I found this heavily damaged book.Can anyone translate pic please?
>>25535174The letters and panegyric of Pliny the Younger, new edition reviewed and illustrated by John Nicholas Lallemandcool
>>25535180Oh! That's pretty cool.Thank you!
>>25535211looks in pretty good conditions given the year(1749)
>>25533965seems somewhat common that a circumlocution replaces an adjective formation from the number itself for the concept of "second", Latin is another example, Russian/Slavic does it too as well as Irish it seems
>>25535246Ikr? After a closer look (and leaving it in the sun to dry any humidity) I can tell that the corpus on the book is still in a good state.The cover it practically destroyed though, both the leather and the binding paper, and the first 70 pages have these weird red spots. But otherwise it's decent, and perhaps still repairable?
>>25535307If it’s not up online somewhere already, you’d be doing a real good thing to scan it.
>>25535174>>25535211Your post reminds me of going through my grandfather's possessions when he passed away. You never know what kind of unexpected things you'll find. I inherited a jacket he used to wear often, and when I put it on, I felt some paper in the pockets. I was hopeful it was a wad of cash, but I pulled it out and realized it was just used tissues.
>>25535359Reminds me of when my grandparents died and left me absolutely nothing
>>25535174>>25535211>>25535307This is an extremely cool find. Thanks for sharing with us.
>>25535293In Old English, oþer (other) was used for "second" as well.
>>25535352Thankfully the state library of Bayern have a copy of it in much better condition, and has it digitised for public access.>https://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/en/view/bsb11265640?page=1>>25535359Not surprised, older people of carrying handkerchiefs and such. At least you've inherited an object that he prized and wore regularly.I agree that one never knows the unexpected things one might find; my initial intent for rummaging was actually to find the bicentennial (if not older) Greek Bible that my gramps claims to have somewhere.
>>25535422Thank. :DI'm happy to share with people that like thse things too.
>>25534113it's obvious you don't have what it takes to make it
>>25535834Oh well I’ll just have to settle for one sample sentence per lemma then, I guess that’ll still be like 50,000-100,000
>>25535834and btw I'm mostly interested in Greek, Lat'n is kind of meh
>>25535895>I guess that’ll still be like 50,000-100,000You have no idea what you're talking about lol. The Lewis & Short Latin Dictionary had 51636 ENTRIES. Do you even know what a lemma is?
Latinfags be like>gonna ask my town pedophile I mean priest to create a few new ecclesiastical latins real quick, brb
>>25535919I’m sorry nigger is this the classical languages general or the anally retentive corrections on English semantics general?
>>25535958it seems this is the using-big-words-you-do-not-know-the-meaning-of thread
>>25535977>Lemma>5 lettersCheckmate. Chud.
New Old Norse textbook coming out in 4 yearsExcitingEspecially the caption that it's going to be using the original texts
>>25535977For the record, I know what the word means I just forgot the actual number and made one up because I post during bathroom breaks.
Is poetae pronounced “poy-teye” in Reconstructed and “pay-tay” in Roman pronunciation?Or are the vowels oe not a dipthong here?
>>25536105poeta is technically po'ē'ta, three syllables because it's from Greek ποι-ή-της it's not normal oe like in poenaso the difference from Rec. and I guess by Roman you meant Ecclesiastical, aside from quality preferences about how to render the long ē, is the diphthong ae, hence, using English approximation, Rec. poh-éh-tay vs Ecc. poh-éh-teh
>>25533965"have" is cognate with "capiō" but not "habeō"
>>25536124Why did οιη become oē and not oeē or even oje?
>>25535940I'm don't understand at all what you mean. Would you care to reformulate your query or comment or whatever that was supposed to be into something intelligible?
>>25536172>oeēunlike Greek Latin doesn't like to keep vowels uncontracted so you can exclude that, at least I guess for very old borrowings like poeta that got Latinized, more recent literate imports from Greek they tolerated(Euboea comes to mind or Nausicaa)as for oje perhaps it's because by the time they were hearing Greeks speak it the latter already pronounced it more like poh-eh-tehs, the jod sound having disappeared; Latins did regularly borrow οι as oe but in this specific case it's followed by a long vowel
>>25536124Gotcha, so Greek loanword. >I guess by Roman you meant EcclesiasticalYes it’s the name I’ve encountered in a lot of 60s-70s and earlier documents and I prefer it because it describes what the pronunciation actually is. Traditional Roman could be taken to be more specific I guess.
>>25536166Grimm's Law, baby!
>>25534113>Flashcarding the entire language is so fucking retarded I don’t even know how to discuss that thoughbeit.Yeah using Anki for language learning is pretty retarded tout court. Maybe Nip&Chink langs are the only exception due to their written systems.
>>25536615It's not too bad for vocabulary.
>>25536172https://latin.stackexchange.com/questions/439/quare-dicitur-poeta-et-non-p%C5%93eta
>>25536615>learning words is bad
Could I become fluent in either classical latin or classical greek by watching long format youtube videos alone? if the answer is no, what would the ceiling be? assuming fluency in English and Spanish? or must i necessarily engage with literature for the matter? how long would it take do you think? for someone to learn latin if they are already fluent in those two languages.
>>25536925>aloneno, even if there was a lot of content(there isn't especially for ancient greek), you need comprehensible input ergo to start with the basics, that's true even for modern languages unless you learn something that is already very close to what you know
>>25536925yes, just make sure exclusively to input audio from videos made by natives. reading literature may in fact hinder your progress since writing is an artificial (unnatural) mean of communication.
We need an English literature version of /clg/. I don't even know Latin, but lurking these threads is honestly so much fun.
>>25536213>it describes what the pronunciation actually isCall it Italian, Roman pronunciation would be something like>Uooo ppischelle, qquid facis, eo so de Rōma, qquid cazzum tte stas ad warda', scisne parla' Romāne? modo me so rumptu er cazzum
>>25537025risi
>>25537025>Call it ItalianIt preexists Italy, the peninsula had multiple local pronunciations. It’s specifically the traditional pronunciation of the city of Rome and Latium.
>>25537058>It preexists Italy, the peninsulaaudiui iam a trilobitis in cambrio adhibitam esse
>>25537213Sic
Imagine yourself as a Late Latin speaker, when the language is on the cusp of splitting off in various regional languages: Are you using "sic" or "hoc ille" to say "yes"?I think I'm more of a hoc ille man, myself.
>>25518846do you have this jpg without the text?
>>25537323baked it just for youI can remove the Homeric heroes on top if you want it's a layer
>>25537340thanks! Can you remove the heroes too if that doesn't bother you?
>>25537383np this is the base image I used
Phrygian caps are pure sovl. I wish I had the confidence to wear one. Maybe this desire comes from watching Smurfs as a kid.
>>25537311Probably depended mainly on where you lived. Just like whether you say "you guys" or "y'all" or "youse" in English depends mainly on where you live.
>>25537489Clearly, but in this hypothetical scenario it is entirely up to personal choice.
>>25536037learn some icelandic in the meantime
calvus noster nos longa donat hodie pellicula ad inpooooooot ut aiunt anglice perfruendum https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoNVJirGR_Y
>>25537833>Calvus nosterRisi
>>25537833Calvi hominis fatigationem patior
>>25537833Quamquam nihil habeo quin Calvum illum esse hominem decentem frugique censeam, ego tamen mores eius - id est gestus, motus, affectus vocis eius - omnino non pati possum; ideo pelliculas eius nunquam spectare soleo.
>>25537844Calvi timent testudinem.
>>25537397you could probably make it fashionable again starting with a standard beanie and fixing the top so that it stays bent forward like with the phrygian capI personally like ancient headbands
>>25537855Memoriae traditum est Aschylum, olim in Sicilia morantem, exisse ex moenibus urbis et in loco aprico sedisse. Tum aquila, testudinem rostro ferens, decepta splendore poetae capitis (nam erat capillo vacuum), lapidem esse rata, in id testudinem immisit, ut, testa fracta, carne vesceretur. Quo casu poeta egregius occisus est.
>>25538825haha en nobis calvitie perculsis ratio pilei phrygii gerendi
Falcifer Norwood me persequitur
volui "messor" pro "falcifer" dicere; non refert
>>25538851si persequitur copia est adhuc in tutum recipiendi, me iam lacessit tunc cepit postremo tandem fere omnino exaravit sed non est in animo deditio quamquam ad triarios ventum sit, non tondeam ad cutem nec barbam promittam more Graeculo
>>25538854Norwood omnes vincit.
>>25538892Me non piget tam calvitiei quam speciei senectutis praematurae; nondum enim triginta annos natus sum. Calvum, sive barbatum sive imberbem, esse non recuso in posterum.
For anyone curious about ancient Middle East languages, I found the 1907 book on the Behistun inscription which provides cuneiform text, transliteration, and translation of inscriptions in Old Persian, Elamite (called Susian here), and Babylonian.https://archive.org/details/sculpturesinscri00brituoft/page/158/mode/2upAlso, a remainder that you can find on YouTube- 'The Poor Man of Nippur' in Akkadian https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxYoFlnJLoE- 'Orestes' in Ancient Greek https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4hkHcDbt8I
>>25538900tecum sentio, caesaries promissa multo decori iuventutis prodest, etiam si adsunt molles genae, cutis, corpus omnino ephebicus coma praepollet
Maybe it'll be useful for someone.https://home.zcu.cz/~ksaskova/Sign_List.htmlYou can also download this sign list in .pdf format from here https://home.zcu.cz/~ksaskova/Whomstever is in charge of FAQ, please add these links.
>>25540741pardon friend, are these fine to add under the general Sumerian section? or should I have a separate section for Akkadian?
>>25535919>>25535958This >>25498242 is unbeaten.
Today, when listening to a random spotify playlist on the shitter, a spanish song came up and as I scrolled down to the lyrics I randomly discovered that the merging of vowels that happens in Latin poetry also happens in spanish, and not only in that song but apparently it is a regular thing with a name (sinalefa) and a wikipedia article and everything. So why have I never heard of it in any of the autistic arguments about Latin pronunciations? You'd think that "well, the 600 million speakers of a romance language all do it naturally, so it is not weird at all and we can check how exactly they're doing it and use that for Latin" would be at least somewhat of an argument? Instead it seems that, even though people will recognize and accept that this is how poetry is supposed to be read, they will not use it for "natural" speech, because it's "too much". Didn't the Bald Man essentially get bullied into redoing his Familia Romana recordings because people were making fun of his "romin italiast"?Anyway, to make the rant into an actual question: if one presents a spaniard with a piece of Vergil and tells them to read it "naturally", or "as if it were spanish", obviously disregarding the vowel lengths etc., but would they get the (numbers of) syllables correctly?
>>25541616Italian does it toobut no, nasal vowels probably would break the syllable count, both Italians or Spaniards will probably read the final m in -am, -um, -em and if followed by a vowel no synalepha but an extra syllableso e.g third line of the Aeneid multum ille et terris instead of mul-til-let-ter-ris something like mul-tu-mil-let-ter-ris
don't know about Portuguese for example though, I know e.g ordem is read more like orde
>>25541371>You fool, Latinists don’t actually read or discuss the literature they just argue about how to best learn to parse the literature for the sole purpose of arguing about how to learn to parse the literature.Should be in every OP
>>25541695>>25541371When I actually post excerpts from my readings here and what I find interesting about them, I never get any (You)s.
when people are reading different things in their own time it's not easy to get a discussion going, especially if most of them have also not read too much literature yet to find overlap between each otherand even then, I assume most people here who are into Latin past basics have read Caesar, yet, is he enough to generate a discussion?
>>25541651It seems it does>Ectlipse - Contração existente quando a última vogal de uma palavra nasal, perdendo a sua nasalidade para formar um ditongo com a vogal que inicia a palavra seguinte;and>Sinalefa - Contração existente quando a última vogal de uma palavra, transforma-se numa semivogal, formando assim um ditongo com a vogal que inicia a palavra seguinte;
>>25541721I think there's a lot to discuss even in an author like Caesar: His ethnography of Gauls and treatment of their religion, his stylistics, his representation of himself as a leader and the political motivations that inform it, etc.
>>25541709Strange, I usually do. It must be a (you) problem.
>>25541753Do you have an example? Maybe from the archives? I rarely see such a thing here.
>>25541755Sure. I posted posted a verses from Publilius Syrus ITT, for example.
>>25541764Oh yeah, this was my response to it:>>25524694Though I didn't really see that post and its replies as a "literary" discussion as I had in mind.
>>25541769Well, it isn't literary criticism, but it's an excerpt, as you said, and another Anon wrote about different possible readings according to different editions, which is probably the most interesting thing that Anon could have said about that single verse.
>>25541793The posts I was replying to literally said>how to best learn to parse the literaturewhich your post was a question about, how to parse that line of P. Syrus. To be clear, palaeography and textual criticism are interesting topics of discussion, but they're not what I was talking about. So saying, "I do," in response to my original post doesn't make much sense.
>>25541803But I do get (you)s when I post excerpts (and related questions.)
Finished Pharr's book the other day and someone made an amazing Anki deck for Homeric vocabulary based on Pharr's lessons. Sadly it only went to Lesson 45/77 so I completed it up to Lesson 77. Open for download if anyone finds any use in it, though there are already many great sources for Homeric Greek on Anki. Just thought I'd do my part.https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/622835290
>>25541828Okay, so you ignored half my post.
I'm checking this thread and all posts about "excerpts" (Juvenal, Greek paleography, the medieval monke) got answers except this one >>25520652So unless all those answers were made by you (thank you! if that's the case) it seems anons will usually spend some minutes writing an interesting answer.
>>25541851All of those other posts you mentioned (except monke) were indeed replied to by me. The post you linked was the one I made. How many people actually use this gen?
>>25541851I read >>25520652 and replied to the Syrus one with the other readings from the critical editions. Nothing personal, I read the Aeneid I found the comment worth reading but didn't feel like adding much, whereas ngl the other tingled my interest because it was kinda puzzling, whereas the oriental = faggoty view in antiquity is kinda well known
>>25541875Fair. I thought some other Anons would find the connection with Magna Mater interesting and the insult funny.
>>25541865>All of those other posts you mentioned (except monke) were indeed replied to by me. The post you linked was the one I made.lmao, ok, you were right. So it is indeed a (you) problem: you're one of the 2 or 3 people writing proper answers. Sorry about that, I thought you were several people.>How many people actually use this gen?Well, there is at least another anon who answered my post.
>>25541899>So it is indeed a (you) problemYeah, I see your point now. I think one of my excerpts got replies last thread, now that I think of it. I can learn from this.
>>25541616>one presents a spaniard with a piece of Vergil and tells them to read it "naturally", or "as if it were spanish", obviously disregarding the vowel lengths etc., but would they get the (numbers of) syllables correctly?Other than final -m being read as [m], a lot of hiatuses involving i + vowel would be pronounce as diphthongs, and diphthongs ae and eo would be read as hiatuses in most cases.
>>25541709The only times I’ve gotten (you)s for posting excerpts is to be told to stop posting them>when people are reading different things in their own time it's not easy to get a discussion goingIt’s a forum not a book club. We can talk about stuff outside of the same identical assigned reading.
>>25541962>It’s a forum not a book club. We can talk about stuff outside of the same identical assigned reading.Yeah, if you provide some text with a bit of context, it can be a great basis for discussion while also introducing Anons to works and authors they otherwise may not have read. It's something everyone here should do more of.
>>25541962>The only times I’ve gotten (you)s for posting excerpts is to be told to stop posting them>things that never happened
How do you know when you're ready to move on from a given logos chapter? Also, is there an extant answer key?
>>25541865Maybe 6 of us post in Latin at least occasionally >>25542006If you’re talking about the one that’s like LLPSI, I own it, but I was never able to find any sort of answer key. For LLPSI I would just move on from a chapter when I could understand the whole reading fairly confidently, kind of a judgment call. For what it’s worth, though it’s a different language, Orberg had a grade of 80% or better on the pensa as his threshold for allowing a student to move on.
Ego legi XII capitulos de LLPSI; Ego possum legere latinam linguam, sed transcribere anglam linguam trans latinam linguam difficilior est. Quam stultus sum? Num me necare habeo?
>>25542061Noli tibi mortem consciscere. Tam tironibus quam provectioribus linguae Latinae studentibus haec difficultas communis est. Praestat tantum consuetudinem scribendi instituere ut paulatim ac sensim melius scribas. Ego commentarios diurnos servo in quibus Latine scribere soleo; id me multum adiuvit.
>>25542079>Noli tibi mortem consciscere.cur "Noli (cum) tua morte conscire" inrectus est?>commentarios diurnos servo in quibus Latine scribere soleo; id me multum adiuvitego commentare temptaro in hic locus
Wheelock’s is so good wtf. I can’t believe I ever trusted the slander. Teachers have to just really suck at teaching for this textbook not to work. Or maybe the only reason it feels so good to me is because I can already read fluently. Either way I think the whole learn to read fluently well enough and then deeply study grammar and write a bunch approach is gonna work out in the long term.
>>25542126>cur "Noli (cum) tua morte conscire" inrectus est?Conscire non est consciscere. "Sibi mortem consciscere" est "se necare.">ego commentare temptaro in hic locusLoqui in hoc loco bonum consilium est. Fortunam tibi exopto.
>in hoc locoaliquando non memoro qui praepositio "in" regit ablativum casum; de octavo solo salire volo
>>25539139Orestes a cute
>>25541836Thank you. I'll try this out.
>>25541029>pardon friend, are these fine to add under the general Sumerian section? or should I have a separate section for Akkadian?There is a huge overlap like text editors, sign lists, corpora databases etc. I'd probably rename 'Sumerian' to 'Cuneiform languages' or 'Ancient Near East languages', and make subsections for 'Akkadian', 'Hittite', 'Sumerian', and 'Multilingual' (resources covering 2 or more languages). Below is the new additions I suggest to FAQ. Some of these I uploaded to my own cloud mega dot nz/folder/hipjTD6Y#8BdepvggE3sSHOlv4Op_XA and noted them below by ^. It'd be great if you re-uploaded them to the OP:(1/2)* Akkadian (book FAQ):- Beginner-intermediate:-- 'A grammar of Akkadian', 3rd ed. 2011 by Huehnergard J. - a highly regarded textbook teaching the Old Babylonian dialect of Akkadian, including cuneiform (OB lapidary, OB cursive, and Neo-Assyrian glyphs); has the exercise key book from the author. * Akkadian (resources):- ARCHIBAB - Archives babyloniennes https://archibab.fr/home - a French collection of Old Babylonian tablets dd XX-XVII centuries BC, including the royal archive of Mari absent in CDLI; tablets are provided with translations, line art copies, and/or photographs (sometimes with OCR).* Hittite (book FAQ):- Beginner-intermediate:-- 'The Elements of Hittite', 2011 by Theo van den Hout - teaches the basic Hittite grammar, vocabulary, and cuneiform signs; doesn't require prior knowledge of Akkadian or Sumerian; lessons contain authentic sentences and cuneiform texts with exact references to tablets and lines.- Advanced:-- 'A Grammar of the Hittite Language', 2nd ed. 2024 by Hoffner Jr. and Melchert - the comprehensive grammar of Hittite; consists of the grammar book, and the tutorial supplement with a series of lessons; it doesn't teach cuneiform, and overall the material is too advanced to start with from the very beginning. * Hittite (resources):- NesiliKeys2.0 https://hethport.net/cuneifont/ - a Hittite keyboard layout for MacOS; allows to produce only signs used in Hittite, so some Sumero-Akkadian characters are absent; in general, Enmerkar keyboard is more universal.* Sumerian (resources):- SMM - Science Museum of Minnesota https://web.archive.org/web/20160821180402/https://www.smm.org/anthropology/cuneiform/catalog - a small collection of tablets with translation and transliteration.
>>25542605(2/2)* Multilingual (books):- Manuel d'épigraphie akkadienne, 6th ed. 1995 by R. Labat - a French work on the evolution of cuneiform glyphs in Sumerian and Akkadian.- The Sculptures and Instruction of Behistun, 1907 - provides the original cuneiform Old Persian, Elamite (here 'Susian'), and Akkadian (Babylonian) texts of the Behistun inscription with the transcription and English translation.* Multilingual (resources):- https://home.zcu.cz/~ksaskova/Sign_List.html - a sign list with III dynasty of Ur and Neo-Assyrian glyphs (also downloadable as a .pdf ) coupled with index numbers used by Labat.- https://home.zcu.cz/~ksaskova/ - various other links to texts, fonts, dictionaries, language tools and resources on Sumerian, Akkadian, Hittite, Urartian and Eblaite. - https://hethport.net/cuneifont/ - collection of fonts and sign lists for Akkadian (Old Babylonian, Neo-Babylonian, Neo-Assyrian), Old Persian and Hittite.- Corpus of the Hittite cuneiform archives (tablets in Hittite, Akkadian, Hurrian, Luwian and Palaic languages):-- https://hethport.net/TLHdig/tlh_idx1.php - catalog of tablet transliterations with interlinear glossing; -- https://hethport.net/TLHdig/corpus.php - catalog search;-- http://134.93.14.97/hetkonk/hetkonk_abfrageF.php?lang=EN - search of tablet photographs.I also uploaded 4th edition of the Homeric Greek by Pharr with incomoplete exercise keys which were shared by an anon a while ago.
>>25542605>>25542627wow thanks a lot friend, I followed your advice and added an ancient near east section as a whole so it's more organized given that it seems there's a lot of overlapping indeedI tried to also follow your pic and reorganize the previous links under the Sumerian tab, hopefully now it's in good order, I don't know much about these languages, I also added the infographic in your first postI'd add more resources to the megas in the OP but I don't own them, the ANE one in particular should be managed by Ethiopianon, he showed up more often years ago but it's been a while since last time
>>25542504No problem my man
Has anyone else here ever read much Latin put out by the Church from the 60s onwards? The Latin edition of the Catechism, which was put out in the 2000s IIRC, is written in a straightforward style I find very pleasing.
>>25543208Not really, but I follow the Pope's Latin xitter account.
>>25543208>give Catholic Catechism a chance>first word is literally a homophobic slur>nope, nope, nopeI'm literally shaking right now.
>>25543359Risi.
>>25542852Thanks, mate, doing the good work!>EthiopianonDo you mean he studies Ge'ez or is he actually Ethiopian?
>>25543746Knows Ge'ez and a bunch of other languages but IIRC he mentioned he is not actually Ethiopian and studied in America; last time he posted I think he mentioned doing other stuff besides languageshope he's doing well
It's interesting how many ancient peoples formally declared war or destruction with a missile weapon:-The Romans: Livy 1.32:> Fieri solitum ut fetialis hastam ferratam aut praeustam sanguineam ad fines eorum ferret...>Id ubi dixisset, hastam in fines eorum emittebat. Hoc tum modo ab Latinis repetitae res ac bellum indictum, moremque eum posteri acceperunt. -The Anglo-Saxons: Bede, Eccl. Hist. 2.13:>Accinctus ergo gladio accepit lanceam in manu...>Nec distulit ille, mox ut adpropiabat ad fanum, profanare illud, iniecta in eo lancea, quam tenebat; multumque gauisus de agnitione ueri Dei cultus, iussit sociis destruere ac succendere fanum cum omnibus septis suis.-The Norse: Völuspá, stanza 24:>Fleygði Óðinn ok í fólk um skaut, / þat var enn fólkvíg fyrst í heimi; / brotinn var borðveggr borgar ása, /knáttu vanir vígská völlu sporna.>(On the host his spear | did Othin hurl, / Then in the world | did war first come; / The wall that girdled | the gods was broken, / And the field by the warlike | Wanes was trodden.)-Iron Age Semites: 2 Kings.16-17:>dixit ad regem Israel: Pone manum tuam super arcum. Et cum posuisset ille manum suam, superposuit Eliseus manus suas manibus regis,>et ait: Aperi fenestram orientalem. Cumque aperuisset, dixit Eliseus: Jace sagittam. Et jecit. Et ait Eliseus: Sagitta salutis Domini, et sagitta salutis contra Syriam: percutiesque Syriam in Aphec, donec consumas eam.
>>25543861>sanguineambest form
>>25543861 #>simiam in arborem aliarum simiarum saxum iacere>simias ramum in simiam contra iacere>nunc simias bellum facere u u u oo o o ooo oooooSimia videt simia facit.Non dissimiliter hodie etiam fit, nescio quo pacto saepisse simiae sine praeputio quaecumque religionis toto in orbe in missilibus emittendis maxime delectantur.
>>25544892simiis arbores colentibus parum est tela iacendi vis propter naturam ipsam eorum corporum, nos vero glabri atque pedibus ambulantes logopitheci inter omnia animalia coepimus praepollere cum maxime corpora aptassemus ad missilia contorquenda in praedas deinde(profecto pusillo post temporis) alios hominessibi maxime simiae optarent nostram artem telorum proiciendorum, adeo ut homo iaculator opus esset nuncupari potius ac homo sapiens
>>25544923De nobis loquebar, simiam pro homine, arborem pro oppido posui, fortasse melius merdam pro saxo dicere oporteret, nam hoc simillimum morum hominum est, et simiae peritissimae ad excrementa iacenda videntur.Nos omnes, etiamsi bipedes implumesque, adhuc multum proprium horum animalium habemus. Demiror sin aliquando magis humana quam ipse homo simia appareat.
>>25545000>pro oppidovel vico vel casa et ceteris
>>25545000haha teneo, genius meus autismi me cepit legentem simiarum exemplar: eorum generi profecto nostrum simillimum pani troglodytae dicto saevo immitique et procul ab humanitate(sensu profecto "humanitas" illae quae legitur apud antiquos id est benignitas vel clementia erga alios quam facile frustramur)ponginum genus accipiat orbem
Homo homini non lupus, sed simia.
>>25544892>simiae sine praeputioCum haec verba legissem, curiositate affectus sum. Ideo in interrete quaesivi, et repperi esse vere simias captas quae circumcisae sint propter necessitatem medicam, velut paraphimosin, quae quidem etiam hominibus nonnunquam accidit.
>>25544892>toto in orbe in missilibus emittendis maxime delectantur.Quia Romani sunt
I want to thank the anon who a while ago encouraged me to tackle Sumerian. I'm having a lot of fun with it. Verbs are kicking my ass tho'.
>>25545690Is it worse than Greek?
>>25546146For verbs specifically or in general? For what I have seen so far, it looks about as difficult as learning Japanese overall for a native Romance speaker (me), insofar as in both cases you have to reconsider what the concept of "language" is for your brain. Ancient Greek in comparison is a piece of cake.For verbs specifically, I am still halfway through the (Italian) Athenaze, so I cannot say, but I strongly suspect that Sumerian ones are much harder.
Put another way, the reason Japanese people broadcast over social media nonstop and it makes the national news when a foreigner commits some faux pas, while the same can’t be said for America, is because in America the foreigners also rape and kill children instead of just reclining their seat back on the train or talking too loud.A foreigner reclining his seat is national news in Japan. A foreigner brutally torturing and murdering a kid in America doesn’t escape the local news besides maybe chatter from some autists online.
>>25546472FUUUUCK I POSTED IN THE WRONG THREAD IM SO RETARDE
>>25546473You have the option to delete a post after one minute. Too late now though.
>>25546472>A foreigner brutally torturing and murdering a kid in America doesn’t escape the local news besides maybe chatter from some autists online.Qua de causa simiae circumcisae tam saevae et amentes fiunt?
>>25546602A puellis repulsi semper ad hunc fugiunt corbariorum amoenum locum.
Anima in praeputio residet, ideo qui daemonia desertorum colunt id abscindunt.
>>25545175>ponginum genus accipiat orbemAD SVMIAM REDITE
>>25545690>encouraged me to tackle SumerianWhy would anyone do such a thing.What do you use btw?
>>25546683agedum ne confundantur pan istic et pongides! si Graii primo deinde Romani alteros cognovissent non quales tuae picturae inest profecto verbo non usi essent in hominibus obiurgandis
>>25546784>Why would anyone do such a thing.Because I want to be the best 𒁾𒊬 that ever was :PTo me the appeal is both reading the oldest literature ever written by mankind, and the intrinsic challenge of the language.>What do you use btw?For now I am using a small manual written by some Argentinan guy (he fundamentally just published a recap of the notes he made over several years), bur I will be switching to a "real" university grammar soonish.The trickiest part is that plenty of features of the Sumerian grammar is not 100% agreed upon, so different textbook can disagree on some aspects, and the field itself is still under evolution.
>ὣς ἄρ' ἔφη, καὶ παῖδα (Ἕρμην) λαβὼν φέρε Φοῖβος Ἀπόλλων.>σὺν δ' ἄρα φρασσάμενος τότε δὴ κρατὺς Ἀργειφόντης>οἰωνὸν προέηκεν ἀειρόμενος μετὰ χερσίν,>τλημόνα γαστρὸς ἔριθον, ἀτάσθαλον ἀγγελιώτην,>ἐσσύμενος δὲ μετ' αὐτὸν ἐπέπταρε·Quam eleganter his verbis, "τλημόνα γαστρὸς ἔριθον, ἀτάσθαλον ἀγγελιώτην," id significatur quod Martin West "peditum" subaudiri censet!
>>25547311>examino apud LSJ>fmc constathaha quid autem ad rem/hymnum? οἰωνοί id est vultures sunt sane eorum quos ventri deditos nuncupare convenit, quomodo autem legitur hoc in hymno 'crepitus ventris'? non legi adhuc omnes hymnos Homero ascriptos, Mercurii minime
>>25547406ut accuratius dicam: teneo quomodo τλήμων γαστρὸς ἔριθος poetice verti possit 'crepitus ventris', sed ipso in hymno videretur ἄτοπον, nonne?
>>25547406Recte dicis οἰωνούς vultures esse. Vultures autem ad artem augurum pertinent; ideo οἰωνός etiam "omen" significare potest. In his versibus, hoc est "omen ventris."
>>25547430aaaaaa teneo, haha, mea culpa, ante ἐπέπταρε legi ἐπέτραπε, nunc ambobus verbis patet sensus multo liquidius
>>25518846>sextus empiricus in 07COME ON
Let's get that new cookin'
>>25547748/lit/ is pretty slow I think few hours before the new one are fine
>>25547751Sounds good. I'll just fuck off and kill myself.
>>25547780resist friend let's get at least to page 6
baking now because I'm going to bed>>25547982>>25547982
>>25545198τί τὸ fuck?
