*Previous: >>25512907

>>25523203
nice thread fucking moron. god just give up and have someone else do it

I suspect a lot of the recurring issues that come up in these threads could be solved if people here read more books.
Like proper novels.

>>25523270
what are the recurring issues?

Pls rate and critique:

>He hadn’t seen his sister in three years, since the day of their parents’ funeral. Before that, they hadn’t seen each other for a good five years. His nephew must be… fifteen by now. He wasn’t sure he would recognize him if he passed him on the street. At that age boys change with grotesque speed, the smooth face turning pitted and hairy, the childish build stretching into something long, angular, and hostile. Even the smell signals that they’ve come to kill you.

>He spoke with Maria Luisa a couple of times a year on the phone. He hadn’t quarreled with her or with her husband or son, harbored no secret resentments. She was a good woman and had been a good sister, had put commendable effort into connecting with a brother six years younger. And yet he felt no desire whatsoever to take a train and cover the hour and a half that separated them. He could have seen her before evening, but he wasn’t interested. The idea provoked in him the same exasperated revulsion as the thought of taking up a hobby, changing profession, leaving Bianca, moving, altering his life in any way. Growing up in the same house had forced a certain intimacy, but once that topographical bond was gone, the relationship with his sister had quietly come apart, in the background, without him noticing. And when he did notice, he did nothing to stop it. He wouldn’t have known what to do. Still didn't. Even if a magic spell sent him back in time to those days, he wouldn't be able to prevent it. It had to happen.

>For all their pretensions to cognitive supremacy over the animal kingdom, they remained of a brutal simplicity: mere physical proximity determined the intensity of their affections. He had never felt any sadness at completing a course (primary school, high school, university), and his classmates’ emotion had always struck him as bizarre: they weren’t dying or being exiled to another planet, they could have seen each other again if they’d wanted to. But it never happened. Their instinct, as was often the case, had shown greater wisdom than his reason, grasping effortlessly that concept of the geographic dependence of feelings that would elude him for many years. Every graduation ceremony had in fact been a small massacre.

(cont.)

>>25523281
>And yet the matter continued to sow confusion. Countless adults, even elderly ones, with decades of experience in this game, remained baffled by how easily over the years they had lost touch with former classmates, former colleagues, uncles, cousins, even siblings. They searched for a clear and grave cause, an unforgivable offense inflicted or suffered, because surely nothing less weighty could have broken such crucial bonds. They didn’t understand, didn’t want to understand that it was simple spatial distance. The number of days since the last time light reflected from someone’s face struck our retinas. The animal laziness that makes us prefer the couch to setting out or making a call, engaging in the usual fencing of invitations offered, deflected, postponed. There had been nothing personal. No significant insult had been necessary to commit the bondicide, because the victim itself hadn't been significant.

>Their mental state was determined by how many trivial physical pleasures they had at their disposal, by the number of endorphin and dopamine sources within reach, and truly nothing else had the slightest relevance. A few minutes with a young, firm girl on one’s lap, one’s face bathed in her pheromones, contained more therapeutic power than years of study, introspection, mood journals, dissections before expensive mental health professionals. After all, to make a man happy (or at least content), from the stupidest to the most intelligent, you didn’t need ideologies, philosophies, or religious ecstasies, but "light loves with young girls in bloom", as that French pederast Jew used to say – three excellent sources of neurasthenia; no wonder his huge book was so verbose and pathologically introspective, nor that it wasn’t read by anyone who wasn’t a literature teacher or a neurotic in turn.

>Their parents had raised them impeccably. Never physical or psychological violence, never indifference, never favoritism. They had somehow managed to avoid all the traps normal parents fell into. They had even accepted his artistic studies with the same respect reserved for Maria Luisa’s law degree. Moreover, they had always adored each other; between them there was a spontaneous and ineffable understanding, the kind that centuries earlier must have given rise to the belief in soulmates. No one had been surprised when they died a few months apart. He had never managed to forgive them for having established, from earliest childhood, when his mind was still soft and vulnerable, a standard he would never have any hope of matching. Compared to theirs, any relationship had always seemed inadequate. He had the sense the same was true for his sister, though they had never discussed it. Someone’s happiness always comes at the cost of another’s misery – even when the exchange isn’t obvious, it’s always there: their parents had cannibalized them to fill their stomachs.

(cont.)

>>25523284
>He also felt an incongruous resentment at having been deprived of the childhood traumas that should have been his, an indispensable resource for a true artist (art is born of pain, another one whose name he couldn’t recall had said). He had always harbored the unconfessed certainty that his mediocrity as a painter was due to this, at least in part, and he was perfectly aware of how ridiculous and unfair such resentment was, but the guilt only sharpened his ill will. (The byzantinism of it didn’t trouble him: he had read the French pederast Jew, and he had never taught literature.)

>To be traumatized by one’s father, grow up, surpass him in power, kill him – generally only symbolically, but the other method worked too – and thus cauterize the wounds he inflicted on us, is the only way to truly become an adult, and he had been defrauded of this possibility, relegated to the role of eternal child, of perplexed and frustrated ephebe.

>Their culture had really played a nasty trick on them by eliminating rites of passage. Trials that tested their qualities, that could be failed, whose failure entailed severe consequences, and that unequivocally distinguished children from adults. In their protective frenzy, they had eliminated the pain that strengthens along with the pain that cripples. Now what was left? Get a driver’s license? Survive until your eighteenth birthday? Western civilization had decided to castrate its males long before giving birth to Voithitikos, and had approached the task with gusto and meticulousness.

(It's a long excerpt but I wanted to give you guys enough to express a judgement. I don't take criticism personally as long as it's honest.)

>>25523270
Reading good books makes me want to give up writing.

>>25523278
Lurk more and you will find out.

She pulled the front of her dress down and her enormous breasts spilled forward in a black lace bra, then she reached awkwardly behind her back, struggling to find the clasp, and unhooked it. She removed the bra and put it down on the couch next to her. Her bare skin was pale white. Clear and unblemished, without any of the imperfections you would expect a woman of her size to have. Her youth was probably doing a lot of the work, combined with her absurdly privileged lifestyle.

I went rock-hard seeing this, my cock sticking up in my shorts.

She noticed and giggled. “Your thing’s up. You like these?” She pushed her chest together.

I very much did, but I wasn’t sure how I felt. She’d come in acting like a high-class socialite, then devolved into a crying, hysterical mess, now she was behaving more like a goofy teenager. I couldn’t pin down which was the real one. But hearing her laugh made me feel good. I looked around the office and considered the logistics of how we were going to do this. I didn’t think the couch would work for someone as big as her. There was enough space to do it on the floor, but it was hardwood and since I didn’t fancy being crushed, she’d be on the bottom. That wasn’t how you treated a woman.

“I’ll be back in a minute” I told her.

She was chewing on a pink candy stick that looked like a cigarette. “Don’t take too long” she said excitedly.

>>25523398
Besides the childish smut (it can be a legitimate choice), the pacing of the sentences is a bit off, a repetitive list of actions: she took away this, she lifted that, she dropped this.

I'd eliminate filter words like "I didn't think the couch would work", just say "the couch wouldn't work".

And the "she said excitedly" is just amateurish. This sort of sentence is why they suggest to not abuse adverbs.

>>25523409
Smut is childish? What are you a muslim or a jeet or some shit?

>>25523409
Line edits like this are rather pointless without a developmental edit first.
Which is even more pointless when the context of the excerpt is unknown.
You pretty much are just wasting your time with turd polishing.

>>25523409
>>25523424
Do you think we can't see you're replying to yourself?

>>25523425
Are you retarded or delusional?
Not only am I not samefagging, but you are pretending like you are multiple people in a single post.

Take your meds.

>>25523439
>Stinkjeet doesn't know how to samefag
>brings up turds unprompted

That summer Parker had trouble sleeping. There were power droughts; sudden failures of the delta-inducer brought
painfully abrupt returns to consciousness.

To avoid these, he used patch cords, miniature alligator clips, and black tape to wire the inducer to a battery-operated
ASP deck. Power loss in the inducer would trigger the deck‘s playback circuit. He bought an ASP cassette that began
with the subject asleep on a quiet beach. It had been recorded by a young blonde yogi with 20-20 vision and an
abnormally acute color sense. The boy had been flown to Barbados for the sold purpose of taking a nap and his
morning‘s exercise on a brilliant stretch of private beach. The microfiche laminate in the cassette‘s transparent case
explained that the yogi could will himself through alpha to delta without an inducer. Parker, who hadn‘t been able to
sleep without an inducer for two years, wondered if this was possible.

He had been able to sit through the whole thing only once, though by now he knew every sensation of the first five
subjective minutes. He thought the most interesting part of the sequence was a slight editing slip at the start of the
elaborate breathing routine: a swift glance down the white beach that picked out the figure of a guard patrolling a chain
link fence, a black machine pistol slung over his arm.While Parker slept, power drained from the city‘s grids. The
transition from delta to delta-ASP was a dark implosion into other flesh. Familiarity cushioned the shock. He felt the
cool sand under his shoulders. The cuffs of his tattered jeans flapped against his bare ankles in the morning breeze.

Soon the boy would wake fully and begin his Ardha-Matsyendra-something; with other hands Parker groped in
darkness for the ASP deck.

Three in the morning.

>>25523440
So just random bassless insults.
I heard too much salt is bad for you.

>>25523453
You should perform at kids parties as Stinky the rapist clown. Making an absolute fool of yourself seems to come naturally.

>>25523468
It's ridiculous that you are this upset over mild criticism.

>>25523472
Calling random women on the phone begging for sex and actually expecting to get it is ridiculous, sanjay.

>>25523474
You are indeed mentally ill and need to take your medication.

>>25523476
You indeed smell like an open sewer

>>25523477
And even more off the wall baseless insults to soothe your fragile ego.

It's too early in the thread for this shit. If you're going to respond to and/or be mentally ill shitposters, at least do it in the form of a dramatic monologue or something, keep it on theme and put some effort into it. Write some flash fiction about fucking each other's mothers, I don't know.

>>25523481
Try not shitting against the wall next time.

>>25523484
What is wrong with you?

>>25523482
This happens anytime any comment on another work gets critiqued.
The person who comes here to criticize everyone else does this any time they themselves are criticized.
They do it every thread, usually several times every thread.
Mods don't care so it's just apart of these generals now.

>>25523485
What is wrong with your entire country and culture?

>>25523493
America?
Long list that isn't relevant to your current episode of acting out.

There is nothing wrong with learning the order of operations when it comes to types of editing.
This level of upset isn't necessary for being informed of common editing advice.

I've already pre-sold publishing rights to Random House, by the way.

I returned with a rolled up shag rug from the beauty salon across the hallway. I’m sure they wouldn’t mind and I’d get it washed before I returned it. I laid it on the floor. Not exactly the Ritz but it’d have to do.

She tried to stand, but only got a little way up before her weight pulled her back down. She tried again, reaching her arms out for balance, but again sank back into the couch, breathing a little from the exertion. “Uh...” she looked at me.

I did weights in high-school, hopefully I still had a bit of it left. I took hold of her pudgy hands and heaved with everything I had. God she was heavy.

Laughing, she wobbled awkwardly to her feet and then pulled the rest of her dress down, leaving only a pair of black lace underwear that matched the bra.The effect was like a dam bursting as her entire body-weight came pouring out.

I didn’t lose any of my erection, strange as it might sound. Most guys would have been turned off, but her body just tickled something in my brain. Some deep, buried part that was screaming with lust. Like a lower functioning caveman, I wanted to go absolutely primal on her.

She waddled over to the rug, her enormous ass moving with a life of its own, bouncing and wobbling with every step. I gave her a playful slap on it and she giggled like a schoolgirl.

>>25523504
I'm so happy for you. I'm sure the acceptance letter will come any day now.

>>25523452
Not bad. The style flows well and the images are vivid and effortless in the mind of the reader.

The concept is also interesting but isn't it very similar to the brain cartridges in Chuck Palahniuk's "Rant", which allowed you to relive a memory through the recorder's senses?

>>25523512
I think having similar concepts to another work is fine as long as the work in total is reasonably original.

What do you think of the sentence:

>"I am glad to see you've made it back," X said, but his voice said otherwise.

I've had a beta reader tell me it is telling, not showing, and that I should describe his voice to actually show that X might not be glad to see him.

>>25523512
>which allowed you to relive a memory through the recorder's senses?

Brain dances are so ubiquitous in sci-fi as to be alongside laser guns in the hall of tropes.

>>25523516
I think subtext would work better in this situation.
Or at least describe what about his voice said otherwise.
Like
>"I am glad to see you back," he said with a deadpan tone, not bothering to look up from his well worn book.
A bit overwritten but a nudge in the right direction.

>>25523516
your beta reader is a retard and anyone who keeps repeating "show not tell" ad verbatim as gospel needs to be killed. I am convinced none of them actually read books

>>25523516
>I've had a beta reader tell me it is telling, not showing
Who caaaaares
You don't have to "show, don't tell" with every single line, at a certain point it's just fucking exhausting. Some things are allowed to just be matter of fact. I say this as a big "show, don't tell" proponent, there's a time and a place, and too many people are insanely dogmatic about either always using it or disregarding it completely.
If most of your lines are like this, sure, that's a problem, but if it's just this one then it sounds like your beta reader just really wants you to know that they've read a book about creative writing

>>25523521
It's valid critique for that particular line.

The line would be better if it had more depth and detail through description instead of prescription.

>>25523527
>The line would be better if it had more depth and detail
Why? Why this line? What context is it in? You don't know. Maybe more depth and description would grind the scene to a screeching halt instead of expressing the speaker's dismissiveness by the author himself being dismissive.

>>25523523
Do you actually believe that line is fine?
Really?
You don't see anything wrong with it at all?

>>25523529
Dude didn't ask all that.
Dude asked about that line in particular.

>>25523530
See >>25523529
If you're going to pass judgement on a clear, plain english line with zero context, you're a retard

>>25523533
Yeah, and it's a stupid question

She waddled over to the rug, her enormous ass moving with a life of its own, bouncing and wobbling with every step. I gave her a playful slap on it and she giggled like a schoolgirl. She pulled her underwear down around her ankles and tossed them aside with one foot. She went into a kneel on the rug first, every movement from standing to walking to sitting was somewhat difficult and needed to be planned out beforehand, then lay sprawled flat on her back, eager blue eyes looking up at me from a face that had mostly been spared of her obesity, except for a double chin.

I stripped naked myself, and stood over her with my erection in one hand and the other on my hip. Jesus, do I even have enough length to get this done? Well if not I could always just eat her out. Did that work with virgins, though? Didn’t you have to break something-or-other?

>>25523534
So still butthurt over your opinion being invalidated so now trolling and samefagging again.

>>25523537
>nooooo you can't discuss writing in /writing general/
Take your meds

>>25523512
>relive a memory through the recorder's senses
>>25523517
>so ubiquitous in sci-fi as to be alongside laser guns in the hall of tropes
the most famous example is probably Neuromancer, which not only references the recording of senses for entertainment, but also has the protagonist, Case, get a "live telecast" view from the head of Molly Millions during their heists

but it's a trope that dates all the way back to at least 1968. Meet Joe 90, boy secret agent, who gets all his skills from the recorded memories of pilots and commandoes and so on
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te0YoEx8fGQ&list=PLUA9kG1DciUzVHBnguZsnoFeKOuoheCd3

>>25523550
Your cronic case of butthurt will never cover for the fact you are a abysmal critic with nothing remotely useful to say.

>>25523527
do you read books? if the writer went to great lengths to describe every single voice, arm movement, twitch of the mouth in every dialogue I'd just put down the book and give a one star review

dialogue should always be simple

>>25523530
yes it's perfectly fine

please enlighten us with your proposed alternative

>>25523605
You're the second most mentally ill regular I've ever seen on 4chan, congratulations

>>25523605
Based. The fart sniffing faggots in these threads need to off themselves already, we need a new crop.

>>25523518
this is horrible

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What for you bury me in the cold cold ground ?

>>25523516
>it is telling, not showing
It is. You're literally telling the reader "but his voice said that he's not glat to see him".

>and that I should describe his voice to actually show that X might not be glad to see him
That's impossible and the kind of retarded advice you get from redditors who think they can write.
The solution is simply to NOT SPECIFY ANYTHING. Cut everything, leave only the dialogue. The reader will understand from the context of the whole scene.
>"But I want to make him understand!"
This is how you ruin a scene.

>>25523652
another samefag retard

>>25523527
>The line would be better if it had more depth and detail
No.
Fucking no.
Hemingway wasn't the apex of literature some people think he was, but he was right when he said that less if often more.

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>>25523581
>boy secret agent
IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ME!

>>25523534
>>25523529
>>25523523
>>25523521
It's true that "show don't tell" has become a shit advice because every reddit moron who attended a creative writing course thinks it's an inviolable law and the secret to good writing...
But that line was absolutely terrible, and you can tell awful lines like that even in isolation. There's no context where that line isn't garbage.

>>25523518
This is even worse. Please stop giving advice. Read for the next 10 years.

>>25523527
>this is who offers you critique in this general

lol

>>25523608
Most amateur writers simply need to "cut, cut and cut", like Checkov said. That alone would improve their stuff 300%.

>>25523653
Mongoloid. Don't speak to your betters unless spoken to.

>>25523527
most readers (who aren't 80 iq thirdies like you) can tell whether someone says one thing, while meaning the other. no need to explain things further

>>25523665
your dialogue is terrible now kys

>it's still going
Why has a single line ignited such controversy?

>>25523677
it's the writer's gambit

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Pretty sure I've just started on the next great novel of the Western Canon(unironically)... Now I just have to not fuck it up

>>25523680
Anon should put quotes from this thread on the back cover

>>25523650
Wut?

>>25523652
That approach can be reasonable, though it's not the only way.

>>25523652
that normally suffices but that does not fit in this context

"I am glad you are back" can be both heartfelt and disingenuous. You can show him not smiling, or mention his eyes or brows that do not move, instead.

any advice for Royal Road marketing? my story has had solid reviews on Amazon and Goodreads, but I don't get much organic traffic

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Please give me some critique

1/4

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>>25523713

2/4

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>>25523716

3/4

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>>25523719
the end

>>25523707
>can be both heartfelt and disingenuous.
And the rest of the scene/story should be what tells you which one it is.

>You can show him not smiling, or mention his eyes or brows that do not move, instead.
You can, but then your writing will look amateurish to anyone who has read more than a dozen fanfictions.

>>25523669
I haven't posted any dialogue, shitwit.

>>25523684
From this post, I guarantee you didn't.

>>25523704
It's the only good way. But you can choose the reddit way, if you want.

>>25523713
Terrybaster sounds like an infomercial product being hocked by a former sitcom actor.

>>25523713
Stop with this "Poopsmearer the poop-colored wyvern" formula. It gets tiresome immediately.

Stop with the dialogue tags. Characters don't need to "quiver their wings" or "stomp the sand" every time they speak. It's fine to just have the dialogue. Cut that excess garbage.

Overall, I'm sorry but this reads like the first attempt at fiction by a developmentally delayed 15 year old. It gives me Sonichu vibes.

>>25523735
Stop being a whiny bitch. The writing's fine.

>>25523750
NTA but I agree with him. I really don't like it

>>25523729
>From this post, I guarantee you didn't.
You sound upset that you write shitty dialogue, pleb

>>25523677
Because these people, being incel NEET shutins who live in the room in their mommy's house where they grew up, have nothing going on in their lives, and no real problems, so they have the energy to get worked up over the tiniest thing. Anyone seething in this thread can be safely ignored.

>>25523750
What an odd thing to say in a critique thread

>>25523763
I didn't post any dialogue.

>>25523750
Not trying to be mean but it's utter dogshit. Bad fanfiction tier.

>>25523693
Zoomer

Whatever happened to the worldbuilding thread?

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Man, it's really hard to keep a humorous tone up for an entire novel, isn't it? Your voice just returns to baseline in the end

>>25523821
Someone actually showed that the definition of worldbuilding actually involves building something, as in some sort of creative work or project, and that only daydreaming but never writing anything or doing anything isn't actually worldbuilding by any definition of the word.
This enraged the op of that thread to the point of fleeing back to /tg/ to be called nogames instead.
That and different people in the thread were getting annoyed with his asinine questions and tendency to complain about everyone else's worldbuilding not being realistic enough to fit his retarded level of understanding science then getting salty when someone proves him wrong or pointed out they were writing fantasy with magical shit so scientifically accurate whatever wasn't relevant to their project.

No one else bothered to make more since most of the /lit/ related worldbuilders are already in the fantasy/sci-fi and web novel threads anyway.

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>>25523857
>This enraged the op of that thread to the point of fleeing back to /tg/ to be called nogames instead

>>25523729
Strange since nearly every decent book I have ever read doesn't match your assurtions and instead uses descriptors of behavior as a common method of creating context for subtext to be employed.

Can you post a good book or excerpt from a well-known work that instead uses only the method you ascribe to?
Or explain where you learn such a thing as a hard and fast rule?

Because you make very strong claims but present no evidence to back up your arrogance.

>>25523516
>I've had a beta reader tell me it is telling, not showing, and that I should describe his voice to actually show that X might not be glad to see him.
yes and no
no in the sense that
>but his voice said otherwise
is indeed showing, rather than telling, which would be more like
>"I am glad to see you've made it back," X said sarcastically.
which is actually the root of the "no adverbs" principle: it is not so much the adverbs themselves which are wrong, but they are often overused to disguise shitty writing and are a symptom of telling instead of showing

that being said, yes, I agree with the beta reader, because
>but his voice said otherwise
is a very shallow attempt at showing

a better form would be, for example:
>[Dumbledore] "Certainly not. You must kill me."
>"Would you like me to do it now?" asked Snape, his voice heavy with irony. "Or would you like a few moments to compose an epitaph?"
>"Oh, not quite yet," said Dumbledore, smiling.

see the difference?
there are all kinds of dialogue tags which are used to describe the body language that accompanies the spoken words, and it is part of learning how to write well that you learn what to write and when

>>25523518
>"I am glad to see you back," he said with a deadpan tone, not bothering to look up from his well worn book.
>A bit overwritten
indeed. there was no need at all to add "well worn".
I personally would have gone in this case:
>"I am so glad to see you back," he said drily, not bothering to look up from his book.

the adverb in this case is permissible because it is supported (or disguised) by other hints. but still, it would be good to keep to a rough limit of no more than 1 dialogue tag adverb per 200 words or so, depending.
and it is FAR better than
>in an X tone
which is a godawful mistake I've seen repeated here countless times
now THAT is fucking telling, not showing
use word choice to indicate tone, use adverbs, absolutely do use actions, but for heaven's sake don't fucking say
>in an X tone

>>25523652
>That's impossible
No, it's not.
>Cut everything, leave only the dialogue
Easy there, Hemingway

>>25523729
What an obnoxious cunt

>>25523870
>decent
You can't judge that. Shitwit.

>c-can you p-p-post an excerpt to p-prove this obvious basic tenet?
I can't fix your severe illiteracy in a 4chan post. Try any Hemingway book you can get your hands on. Or Amy Hempel. Or Graham Greene. Christ, there are so many examples because it's such an obvious principle.

I thought r/books was bad, but /lit/ is not far behind.

>>25523966
>his voice heavy with irony
This is better than "but his voice said otherwise", but just barely. If JKR wasn't a shit YA writer she'd have simply written "asked Snape". That's it. The irony emerges from the text.

>>25523966
>"I am so glad to see you back," he said drily, not bothering to look up from his book.
You were going so well, and then you make the same mistake. This is reddit-tier writing. Avoid this excessive exposition. Cut it off.

>>25523966
>No, it's not.
Let me rephrase that: it's impossible without ending up with shit writing like the sentence you've just provided.

I don't get what's so difficult about this. Is the average age here 19?

>>25524047
>asked
NGMI

>>25524051
Just don't reply when you get the urge to sound stupid. It's easy.

>>25523966
>"I am so glad to see you back," he said drily, not bothering to look up from his book.
I'm going to make it so easy even the average /lit/fag can understand it:

IF THE DESCRIPTION OF A DIALOGUE IS LONGER THAN THE DIALOGUE ITSELF, YOU HAVE DESCRIBED TOO MUCH.

You don't even need to reason to use this method, you can visually see if there's a problem or not.

Here's a random excerpt of dialogue from the first fiction book I found around me, top of page 301 of my copy of Sword and Citadel
>"what makes you think that?" I was tired and sat down. Yellow flowers, each blossom no bigger than a drop of water, grew in the grass; I picked a few and found they smelled of calambac.
>"You look the type. Besides, you carried me bottom up, and men who do that always want to hit it."
>"I never knew that. It's an interesting thought."
>"I have a lot of them—that kind." Quickly and gracefully she seated herself beside me and put a hand on my knee. "Listen, it was the initiation, that's all. We take turns and it was my turn and I was supposed to hit you. Now it's over."
>"I understand"
>"Then you won't hurt me? That's wonderful. We can have a good time here, really. Whatever you want and as much as you want, and we won't go back until it's time to eat."
>"I didn't say I wouldn't hurt you."

1) fucking LMAO at this being a genuinely random sampling of Gene Wolfe
2) it seems close to what >>25523652 is recommending, at least to my eyes. There was a "she said" at the very start of the dialogue on the last page when she starts talking (and the entire conversation) but that's it. No description of their voices at all and there doesn't need to be.

>>25524084
This is my first post in this thread by the by—I have no dog in the bickering except that I think the reddit side is incorrect.

>>25524084
Yes, that is a good example of not overburdened dialogue.

The guys in this thread would've added random descriptions like "she suggested suggestively" and "he replied angrily, fixing the leather collar of his long coat" every second line.

CUT DOWN YOUR SHIT. You don't really understand the difference between exposition that accomplishes something (pacing, atmosphere, characterization) and plain verbosity.
CUT. THAT. SHIT. DOWN.

>>25523713
Reminds me of a nursery story or children's fable. I think it would benefit if you strictly called the wyverns with titles like "Sheared the Silver" or "Parril the Fruit-talker." And maybe start the story with a "There were four wyverns, a nickel, silver, copper and gold."

>>25524094
you can just say "I am glad to see you," he said, not looking up from his book.

>noo you can't do overburdened dialogue
You kind of have to when you have more than three characters in a scene. The whole 'back and forth' intuition only works for two characters.

If there's a more elegant solution to 3+ character dialogues id love to see jt

>>25524157
if your dialogue is 2-3 pages then it becomes unreadable garbage. Even simple stuff like "he said, crossing his arms"

>>25523775
>no rebuttal

I accept your concession

>>25524157
Corncob kind of does it towards the end of blood meridian when the man talks to the youths but he doesn't really specify which is talking iirc and I guess it's more a dialogue between the man and a small crowd.

Now that I think about it, irl conversations between a lot of people tend to either collapse into mini dialogues that shift or become chaotic janky messes too. I might be autistic.

>>25524185
this is why I usually avoid having dialogues with more than 4 people, and even so, it is usually led/directed by 2 of them going back and forth

>>25524188
>why I usually avoid having dialogues
you should avoid writing altogether. this is a high IQ activity Ranjeet, stop shitting up these threads and go mop your local 7-Eleven.

>>25524228
there is a very high chance you're brown

>7 Eleven

don't even know what that is. Let me search up where it exists

>USA, Malaysia, India, Philippines, Hong Kong, Laos, Macau, Thailand, Japan, Israel, China, UAE, Vietnam, Taiwan, South Korea, Brazil

you're not white lad

>>25523287
It’s written well, phonetically it all flows very nicely. It’s just a little dull. I think it’s too much interiority, too much circling around the same point re physical proximity and affection. I agree with the sentiment though, especially with the “rites of passage” bit. It’s a thought I’ve had myself, and is expressed well. I think this just needs some editing.

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>>25524253
>n-no you're brown!
pathetic. i came to this board to share my brilliant work and start my cult and was met with a shit-filled pen packed with greasy brown peasants that are somehow still arrogant.

>>25524253
kek exposed

>>25524253
denounce vishnu

>>25524228
>7-Eleven

post hand

>>25524322
>so retarded and indian he's not even aware of the american stereotype

>>25524339
I really don't understand why you'd be taking pot shots at somebody for supposedly being brown when you come from a minority-white country yourself.

I think my fifth draft is going to be The One

>>25524345
you don't understand shit, that's the point. exit the thread and do not return and we will all reap the benefit of the rising average IQ.

>>25524360
you are a literal turd worlder lol

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>>25524364
(You) are wrong again, stinky.

>>25524371
I mean you already exposed yourself as a turd worlder with slave ancestors so I'm just wasting my time conversing with your unwashed kind

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>the Bore is in the thread
reminder

>>25524429
Doxxing is for fags, fuck off

These threads are hot garbage

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>>25524429
>jeet doesn't like the taste of his own curry
how unfortunate

>>25524339
press X to doubt

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/lit/ should review each other's books

>>25524157
>You kind of have to when you have more than three characters in a scene
You can, you know, actually characterize your characters so the reader understands who is saying what because no other character would say that specific thing.

If you are forced to use tags, just use the "She said, Roger said". They're essentially invisible and don't bog down the narration at all.

>>25524434
Where is the doxx?

>>25524435
My review of TDT is thoughtful and thorough because I am thoughtful and meticulous. Your review of CC is thoughtless and empty because you are thoughtless and empty. We are not the same.

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>>25524461
>We are not the same.
you're almost there

>>25523203
Do anons here actually (other) author's works?
Think it was Sanderson said one should read a smuch as possible while writing.
I have been trying.
But I'm extremely slow reader, reading 1K words can take me 30 minutes

>>25524259
>some editing
Could you give me some quick examples? I don't mean that you should edit the whole thing, just want to understand the methodology you'd employ.

>>25524471
Do yourself a favor and never listen to anything Sanderson says about anything ever.
>"but what about le ebin magig sysdem"
No.

>>25524465
Then I'll go the full distance and point out that I am a good writer and you are not-so-good

>>25524496
Oh snap.

>spend months working on a project
>have no ideas for a name
>finally get one... just one
>it's already taken

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>>25524496
>i am le superior writer saar you must admit!

>>25524491
I fucking hate magic so much.
In stories, almost everything that happens by magic could be replaced with something more interesting.
Take Disney's Aladdin, for example; the story doesn't actually need magic.
>Aladdin could have been hunting for any treasury, not a magic lamp
>Genie didn't have to make Aladdin a prince; he could have saved some distant sultan's life and been adopted as its prince
>Jafar certainly didn't need the genie to take over Agrabah; he could have done it by a coup against the senile sultan

As insane as it might sound, you could even rewrite Harry Potter to be almost identical without magic.

That is to say, to me, magic is a lazy inconvenience. I don't understand why it is needed. Anything can already happen in written stories, so when you have to resort to magic, you are already bending the very loose rules.

>>25524509
>everything that happens by magic could be replaced with something more interesting.
What if someone wrote a story where the point was precisely exploring the negative consequences that magic existing would have on the world?
Just someone, no one in particular.

>>25524509
>you could even rewrite Harry Potter to be almost identical without magic
Did he even do a single spell in the first book?

>>25524508
When I asked you to make my author portrait into another one of your garish genAI monstrosities I meant the one on my website and not the one where you can't even see my face.

>>25524471
Do I actually what?

I read a shit ton. 300+ words a minute on average. No shame in going slow you probably digest it a lot better than I do.

>>25524450
Characterization only goes so far when there's five characters talking, and you're not trying to bog the reader down by playing "guess who's talking by their funny accents, bro". You NEED the identifiers, and everything you do is damage control for the fact that 3+ dialogue is a struggle in books compared to other mediums. More than anything, I think pacing control is key to keep things from getting too chaotic. Sometimes it might be worth slowing down and having action tags just to keep the rhythm consistent.

Obliteration
I screamed—the point of a spear tore through my side—falling to the mud. I tried to stand but the muck sucked me down. Blood spilled mixing with the warm slough. As I writhed, the grimed sand pulled at my torn flesh. Grit ground between eye and lid and I choked in my attempt to cry out.
Cry out? To pierce the dissonant ostinato of a million screams reverberating through this alluvial valley, to be heard among a thousand peals and bombilations of the battagalia, alas I was doomed. The line moved down the hill, their bodies flowing down around me, like rivulets around a stone. The thunder passed and I was alone.
I stare vacantly at the sky with viscera between my fingers. To die in this once fertile crescent under a dimming sun and the light bringer. The light bringer… the eschaton delivered me to this fate. In my final hour, our final hour, the final war over a most dreadful decision.

In the early weeks of the new light, we prayed for a new age, a rinascita, but as it drew rapidly brighter, dissension grew. And brighter still it grew and terror reigned drawing forth a schism among the last of us. A divide, among those in acceptance and those in defiance of this new light. Each side in good faith deliberated but descended to sophistry when the light became clear.
The elders gazed through their large glass and saw into the advancing light. Within the illumination, a translucent orb, within the orb a body… like ours. They dubbed this sojourner Phosphorus.

The pain… the terror melted away as I stared at Phosphorus. If I could have I would have laughed. Too late now, our guest had arrived.

>>25524036
Hemingway regularly uses character expression and prose to convey subtext.
You literally don't know what you are talking about.

>>25524471
>reading 1K words can take me 30 minutes
Are you sure you're not dyslexic or something? Or ESL, or ADHD? Or reading stuff that's particularly challenging? Are you from the generation that wasn't taught phonics properly?
In any case, I'd definitely recommend reading more, you SHOULD speed up eventually, but this seems like the kind of slow that might not as simple as gitting gud, like there might actually be some sort of issue holding you back

>>25524509
>replaced with something more interesting.
It's almost like the focus is on the characters and not the magic, and that adding "more interesting" rigamarole would dilute the important part of the story

>>25524471
Of course I read other authors.
One can't really be a writer without being a reader.
That said these days it mostly audiobooks since I can listen to them at work.
Been going through a lot of old pulps to get better instincts when it comes to quick snappy storytelling and examples of published and actually popular short stories that people in the past paid to read for entertainment.
Leaning a lot from them, which I am using in the stuff I am writing.

>>25524509
t. mad gunfag
magic is just an allegory. yes you can rewrite harry potter without it because that's the fucking point, magic is an allegory for real world things. the genie is an allegory for the divine, and faith, and god's intervention. all the ancient myths of the past serve a purpose. you don't understand why it is needed because you can't rotate the apple in your head

>>25524747
>real world things
>the divine
>god's intervention

>>25524491
>Don't listen to a master of his craft give common sense advice
And your counter advice to reading alot if you want to be a writer is?

>>25524509
No one cares about your intentionally inflammatory opinions.

This proformative jackassery you have displayed all thread is tiresome.

>>25524748
does religion and faith and metaphysics not exist in the real world? the story explores concepts, is all

>>25524755
notice how of your list of 3 i didn't emphasize
>faith
you basically said
>the magic is an allegory for magic

>but divinity and god is a real CONCEPT in the real world
so is magic, retard.

Thread seems a lot more combative and assholish then usual, which is saying something.

Let me guess. Someone criticized a critic again and they are still big mad about it.

>>25524471
A wannabe painter who never looks at paintings.
A wannabe musician who never listens to music.
A wannabe game developer who never plays games.
A wannabe photographer who never looks at photos
A wannabe football player who never watches football
A wannabe pro-wrestler who never watches wrestling

A wannabe writer who never reads

>>25524769
what i meant to say by 'divines' is that silly little fictional magic can represent real world philosophies like karmic retribution or death/afterlife or altruism or sin, etc. none of these concepts are "real", they're just concepts. you could call all of these magic, but that's not the point

the point of aladdin isnt "oh you saved someone and he rewards you" the point is the moral experiment of "if you could make any wish to a godlike being and temporarily had infinite power to abuse, what would you wish for?" and the consequences of making wishes you'd regret

>>25524749
>master of his craft
gr8 b8

>fifth draft: complete
Might do a couple more sanity passes, but then its locked in. It's a masterpiece.

>>25523504
9/10, it only missed a mention of her cellulites.

Anon, have you ever written something where you switched between male and female POV? I need some advice on the matter: basically whenever i try to insert some good prose on their thoughts it feels kind of forced since both characters are not particullarly sensitive or artsy, and also it feels like they have the same patterns of internal monologue.

>>25524744
Listening ain't reading faggot
You are doing nothing for yourself by listening to them. Even worse, you're listening while doing something else.

>>25524080
>it:
>IF THE DESCRIPTION OF A DIALOGUE IS LONGER THAN THE DIALOGUE ITSELF, YOU HAVE DESCRIBED TOO MUCH
Except when the description serves other purposes of describing the scene, or the important body language of the characters.

>>25524749
>master
He's a goober.
My advice is also to read a lot, just not the shit Sanderson would have you read.

>>25524157
Sorry but on this i agree with
>>25524450
>You can, you know, actually characterize your characters so the reader understands who is saying what because no other character would say that specific thing.

>>25524695
No.

>>25524695
Characterizaton only goes so far as the author's talent, I guess.

Guise what do you think about the discussion between these 2 schizos:
>>25524417
>>25524421

It's about repetition and cutting off excess adjectives, but the italian argues that they're actually necessary to make the prose better and editors are wrong and gay.

>>25524080
I fucking hate when writers do this shit where they have to add some kind of body language signal to every single thing someone says. People be making faces, moving their limbs, looking the other way, etc excessivelly instead of just talking like normal people. Tried reading the Malazan series and dropped it over this, the dialogue was unbearable because the author tried to turn his constant exposition dialogues into livelly scenes.

How do I know if I have an idea

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>>25524874
>Let's expand on this.
who cares about some ai slop
and thats one person you posted

>>25524896
If you can develop it into a plot, and then into a story, and then into something actually written

>>25524897
Your inability to distinguish AI slop from human writing qualifies you as a shitwit at this point. It's 2026, not 2022. You should've developed a sense for it by now.

>>25524874
anon said:
>>25524417
>Repetition isn't always bad.
yes, but overuse of rhetorical devices is one of the meanings of "purple prose"

anon said:
>>25524421
>There is a progression here
>>25524421
>Another classic example of repetition-as-propulsion is Cicero. He often talked like this:
yes, but use that too much, and you get purple prose

specifically, a combination of parallelism and asyndeton. as with any rhetorical device, it is tiring and tiresome when overused. especially when other devices are thrown in as well.

the biggest problem everyone here has (besides spelling and grammar) is a chronic inability to WRITE A SIMPLE BUT STRUCTURED PLOT WITH SIMPLE BUT PERFECT ENGLISH to begin with, and only then move on to inserting rhetorical devices

>>25524888
>I fucking hate when writers do this shit where they have to add some kind of body language signal to every single thing someone says. People be making faces, moving their limbs, looking the other way, etc excessivelly
the keyword is "excessively"
the art of writing is to know when not to do it too much, and when not to do it too little
to walk the line between purple prose and white room

but most anons here do both: purple up their prose on irrelevancies while white-rooming the important features of the place around them
and then get buttmad when this is pointed out

>>25524888
show don't tell sisters? what is our rebuttal?

>>25524888
I thought I was the only one, it was insufferable.

>>25524865
So you are just a hater.
Got it.

>>25524857
I don't listen to donkeys like you.
Your opinion is irrelevant.

>>25524874
>Guise what do you think about the discussion between these 2 schizos:
Seems long and stupid and I think if I wanted to be in that thread I'd be in that thread so idk why you're bringing it here

>>25524840
Congratulations

>>25524904
Overuse is bad by definition. The argument was that that was not overuse, but the appropriate level to generate specific literary effects and atmospheres.

>PERFECT ENGLISH
Define it.

>>25524912
Are you a 13 year old female? You don't get to define a critic "just a hater, so I can ignore what he says". That's not how it works. Sanderfag is a shit writer for very clear reasons, not because I've decided to be a hater.

>>25524903
>post ai slop
>get mad people are shitting on it
>post ai defense of your ai writing
>get mad people are shitting on your defense
>try and crosslink your ai defense in. other threads hoping someone will agree with you
>bloody bastard fuck you tsaars
Say fuck vishnu and mohammed tsaar

>>25524906
That's not "show, don't tell", that's autism incapable of understanding what "show, don't tell" means.
Literature not a script in which you micromanage the actors' performance by dictating their every expression. When you do that you are literally TELLING the reader "this is what they're doing now, and this is what they're doing now, and this is what they're doing now" when you should have done the groundwork and set the scene for the reader to be able to intuit that sort of thing for themselves.
The degree to which such a simple piece of advice is misconstrued baffles me.

>>25524915
>long
Your inability to read over 4 words in a row is not my problem.
>stupid
Said from someone like you, it doesn't have much power.
>I'd already be in that thread
Well maybe you didn't know what was going on there or that it even existed, faggot.

The reflection on repetitions and the apparent overuse of adjectives that is actually legitimate is going to be interesting for people above your IQ, so keep ignoring it.

Mistaking personal taste for writing gospel is dunning kruger peak of mountain stupid behavior.

>>25524920
>everything is AI!
>I'm unable to distinguish it from actual writing because I'm too stupid, so I'm terrified of it!
>everything is AI!
>help!
I don't know how to cure shit-for-brainitis, faggot. Die quietly in a corner.

>>25524917
Thank you
On to the next project

>>25524928
Mistaking writing course 101 rules of thumb for gospel is worse, I'd argue.

>>25524918
You aren't a critic.
You are a random jackass who is willfully ignorant and intentionally as inflammatory as possible.
Likely because you have nothing else going on in your life and feel negative attention is better than being ignored.
In otherwords you are trying and failing to troll because you find yourself getting upset more often then you get lols.
Probably because you aren't funny or creative ether.

Seek professional mental health advice for your narcissistic behavior.

>>25524932
I see a ton more of the former than the latter in this thread.

I need every single person in this thread to take 5 and jack off, you're all so hostile

>>25524918
>The argument was that that was not overuse, but the appropriate level to generate specific literary effects and atmospheres
hard to tell without one sample page, preferably two, to set context

>PERFECT ENGLISH
>Define it
no grammar, spelling, and punctuation mistakes

>>25524947
>>25524950
?

New autistic argument... Are ellipses lame?.. I just can't stop using them, I love those little guys...

>>25524955
typo
>preferably two
not
>specifically two

>>25524854
No I only just started teaching myself how to write.

>>25524943
>in this thread
it's all of 4chan are u new or are you delusional?
anonymity drops the pretense of wanting to preserve reputation, so people say what they want. which is mostly calling other people retards because they can't do that irl

>>25524957
I also love them.
So you have company in that.

>>25524965
I can and do irl.
Try making male friends.

>>25524977
you do it jokingly and care about their reaction. not the same

>>25524965
Newfag detected. You don't need to explain 'water is wet' like it's a new interesting observation.
Different boards and generals have different cultures. This thread is just distinctly more speedy and assmad than usual.

>>25524981
>You don't need to explain 'water is wet' like it's a new interesting observation.
you tell me as another anon argues against my 'water is wet' observation
>but I understand this point so everyone else does
Retard. seek sentience sometime this year please

>>25524978
You don't know me or my friends.

>>25524981
A "critic" got criticized again.
The current level of aggression is the result.

>>25524982
I know your type, there's no point in engaging with you.

>>25524986
You need to jack off more than anyone I've ever seen in my entire life

>>25524983
let's see:
-you call them retards and mean it
why are you friends with actual retards?
-you don't care about your friends' reactions
you aren't friends, or are some kind of robot or alien creature who has somehow slid into a friendgroup, they probably see you as the weird one they want to get rid of

not sure which but either way you're a Retard (capital R)

>>25524990
nice cop out, pretty funny. it's not like i was pretending to be friendly from the start so you just got btfo and are retreating now lmao
i didn't want to talk to your retard ass either so shut the fuck up unless you have a remotely coherent point to make, thanks

>>25524991
What a gay comment.

>>25524992
That's our word.
It's ok when we use it.
You don't have the R pass normie.

about 8,000 words of text in this thread so far
that's how much you could have written instead of arguing pointlessly

>>25524992
NTA but holy hell, why is /lit/ so full of autists who've seemingly never had a conversation with an actual human being? No wonder none if you can write for shit

>>25524996
Kek I suppose if you're a group of actual aspies that's the exception, I admit defeat

>>25524995
Are you flirting with me?

>>25524994
Yep, on a whole other fucking planet.

>>25524999
>seethe with no actual point, not even alluded to, just a sheep bleating into the wind
yeah youre a retard for sure

"I can't stay quiet if you're pounding me like that...!!"

>>25524998
I don't do real writing on my phone.

>>25525007
ngmi