>>25529353
for one he didn’t live 4000 years ago

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>Socrates predates Homer by over 1,000 years

>>25529382
>>25529386
Alright, 2,500 years ago. I appreciate the correction but it doesn't address the larger point. Socrates went much further than Homer in inquiring after the kernel that gives life meaning and purpose.

>>25529397
kind of nuts to think if humans could live to about 200 they'd see almost 10% of mass civilization

>kino
He was so ugly and annoying he was made to drink poison.

>>25529409
You can live to 100 and see almost 5% of mass civilization.

>>25529397
it’s not a small correction.

>>25529548
It's also not the prevailing point and has already been conceded.

>>25529438
Do you know what they found annoying, though?

>>25529438
Nietzschefags think that one of the brightest minds of humanity was worthless because he questioned things like a nerd and that some prole who fights in a bar when he thinks someone insulted him is a true Nietzschean.

>>25529564
Nietzsche also questioned things. He's quite the polemic.

>>25529558
still not 100% sure what the prevailing point exactly was (the kernel that gives life meaning being sufficiently vague), but did you really think socrates was born 4000 years ago?
if i did want to attack your calling him somehow lesser than homer i’d retaliate by saying you clearly haven’t read homer and have an almost outrageously limited idea of western history. you thought socrates was bronze age?

>>25529572
I didn't think much about it. Obviously could've verified before posting. The correction was appreciated.
I did not think Socrates was Bronze Age given he was based in Athens at a time when it was a great city-state.
I've read Homer.
The prevailing point is a rhetorical question: his kinoness is extremely based.
You may think my idea of Western history is limited; it is of no moment. I'm happy to discuss ideas if you want. Dialectic exchange is the whole Socratic point!

The trial of Socrates is pretty kino, but for me the situation got a bit more complicated when I thought about it more and learnt more about the figures and events surrounding it.

>>25529601
Care to expand? My understanding is he was brought prosecuted on charges relating to two separate patterns of behavior:
>(1) an earlier instance of children following him around and learning his use of dialectics (specifically, elenchus), to the annoyance of family members;
>(2) aspersions of atheism and generally upsetting the values of the city through incessant questioning.
It seems to be that Socrates satisfactorily answered both of these claims, but sabotaged himself by not calling on witnesses to support him out of concern for their reputation by association with him.
As an aside, I really appreciated his acknowledgement of Aristotle making it known that he would contribute to Socrates' fine if it meant he could avoid a greater punishment.

>>25529586
i’m not trying to be clever with you. 4000 years ago was firmly bronze age. how do you read homer and misplace socrates by over a millennia?
socratic method asks questions to expose the ignorance of men who claimed knowledge they hadn’t got. what am i doing here with you?

>>25529564
That you think Nietzsche's conflict was with Socrates, the man, and not Socrates, the character in Plato's dialogues, indicates that you don't know shit.

>>25529623
You're beating a dead horse lol. I admitted it was a thoughtless post and conceded/thanked the correction.

Since you seem to appreciate Homer, what is your favorite part of The Iliad, either thematically, narratively, or in its world-building?

>>25529613
Socrates had ties to the 30 tyrants and he was apparently also teaching Alcibiades, I think there is a scene in the Symposium where Socrates and Alcibiades interact.
Alcibiades was an Athenian general, who later betrayed Athens and fought for their enemy, Sparta.
I always think that corrupting the youth in large part means Alcibiades, although that's also a bit speculative.

A different thing is that Socrates always says how he doesn't use rhetoric and is just a humble guy who knows nothing. I actually believed that when I first read Plato, but Socrates simply uses a different kind or rhetoric than most of his contemporaries.
I'm not some Plato expert, so take it with a grain of salt, but if you want to remain skeptical, I think keeping the historical context in mind, listening to both sides and not just Plato etc. is important, for all texts really.

>>25529633
mate you’re practically brushing off calling shakespeare an antiquity age writer. it’s not a misstep of numbers it represents something pretty big.
>what is your favorite part of The Iliad, either thematically, narratively, or in its world-building?
considering it’s a poem and not a novel, i would choose none of those. a personal favourite for me is always astyanax being frightened by his dad's helmet (which homer had kept referring to) - very touching.

>>25529639
I haven't yet read The Symposium closely. I'll do that and look out for what you've mentioned.

Regarding the point about rhetoric: I think the point to keep in mind here is that Socrates differentiated himself from a certain class of Sophists who went around Greece teaching people how to win arguments without regard for arriving at the truth. Not all Sophists were like this (Socrates respected Gorgias' ideal of logos, for instance), but ones that taught smoke-and-mirrors rhetoric to wealthy aristocratic youth were considered anathema to the Socratic school of philosophy—and probably would have been to pre-Socratics like Heraclitus and Parmenides as well, given their notions of logos as a universal truth.

Although Socrates did question everyone who thought they knew about a certain way of living as being the correct way, he explains in the Trial, I believe, that he was driven to do this by an inner daemon who told him not what to do/accept, but what NOT to do/accept. This occurred after his friend visited the Oracle of Delphi to ask her who the wisest living man is. She identified Socrates, who found himself flummoxed by this, did not believe it, and chose to test the truth of the claim. In doing so, he realized that all the people he observed and preconceived as knowledgeable (artisans, politicians, rhetoricians, generals, etc.) were unable to remain logically consistent within their arguments.

It's fascinating that Socrates' whole line of inquiry stems from skepticism of a prophecy that characterized him. It parallels one of the fundamentals of later empirical science, illustrating why philosophy was historically thought of as the queen of sciences.

>>25529652
It does indeed represent something big; that's why I called it thoughtless. It's not a mistake I'd make again.

Good selection regarding Hector/Astyanax. It was a tender moment.

I think literary scholars would unanimously disagree that narrative and world-building ought to be less valued in epic poetry. To suggest themes also should be is puzzling, as that's where poetry often shines. It seems like you touched on a theme yourself (the love between father and son coinciding with the grimness of war), as seen in multiple other examples of Homer's work.

The theme that has always stuck out for me is the gods serving as an extension of particular characters' psyche (and action as a further extension of that), as well as the general foibles of the gods (jealousy; deformities; grudges; favoritism and selfishness; etc.) both paralleled by and contrasted with the lowliness and heroism of various Greek soldiers—sometimes within a single person.

I wish we had gotten more information on Diomedes. Him taking on various gods (I believe it was through Athena and initially against Apollo) on the battlefield was a thrilling read.

>>25529662
There might be some truth to this, but I would say that Socrates' use of irony especially is very effective, he makes his interlocutors look like idiots not only with his arguments, but also with the irony, which is a form of rhetoric.
I also think that Socrates' style of rhetoric is more popular today than anything the sophists ever did.
The use of myth is another effective strategy and Plato uses it quite a lot. People who know ancient Greek also always say that Plato wrote very beautifully, and even in translation his dialogues are a joy to read.
Even if you think that ultimately Socrates and Plato wanted to find the truth, I think we should at least acknowledge that they were well armed with rhetoric, so if they for whatever reason happened not to have the truth, or even just the right method to find truth, the rhetoric would make it harder to detect that.
Overall I'm still a fan of Plato and Socrates but those are a few thoughts I developed later.

>>25529631
Nearly everything we know about Socrates comes from Plato

>>25529681
I agree about Socrates' use of irony/sarcasm, though I think it was often an initial overture to encourage the interlocutor to commit to a position without feeling challenged. I think, ultimately, deductions and refutations remained intellectually honest and rationally sound. I wonder if a part of the reason he did this was precisely due what ultimately happened: a sentence of death for questioning people whose outlooks rested on shaky ground.

>Even if you think that ultimately Socrates and Plato wanted to find the truth, I think we should at least acknowledge that they were well armed with rhetoric, so if they for whatever reason happened not to have the truth, or even just the right method to find truth, the rhetoric would make it harder to detect that.
Definitely agree with this. I think a good example is how easy it is to miss that Socrates does make some strong points in Euthyphro simply because the dialogue doesn't end neatly or have an exclamation-mark type of deduction.

>>25529639
More Critias than Alcibiades — Alcibiades was, despite his bad behavior, a very popular figure. Socrates and Alcibiades served together, so few people could fault them for their connection. It's also the way that Socrates was very Spartan-coded (barefoot, etc.) that made his prosecutors suspect he had sympathies for Sparta (he likely did).

>>25529709
I recall an anecdote where Socrates was a part of a group responsible for judging whether a certain group of prisoners should be executed and he was the lone holdout. This engendered feelings of negativity toward him.

Was that a group of Spartan prisoners?

>>25529674
i wouldn’t actually describe it as tender. it’s halfway funny (and savage) in that register that homer keeps up throughout, but cuts to the quick. another fav is thersites’ speech at the assembly.

i think your take on where literary scholars (another vague term) land isn’t quite right (shocking from someone who placed socrates nearer the invention of the wheel than rome). poetry’s terms are distinctly different. poetry as the greeks knew is was a form of psychotherapy. poets essentially being the descendants of witch doctors and priestesses who’d induce a sort of self-hypnotism and utter an oracle.
hector prudently avoids diomedes while he’s possessed by athena, but diomedes also fears to face hector earlier because ares is with him. formalities.

again, really can’t overstate calling socrates a 2000bc character. also misusing semicolons.

>>25529726
I took it as tender. There is comedy and savagery to it but it still represents a family laughing at their son's reaction in a fleeting moment of peace. That brief joy preceding a tragedy is what makes it tender IMO.

Can you cite Greek poetry being a form of psychotherapy? I'd like to read about that. And does that necessarily preclude that it has substantially informative world-building, themes, and narrative?

>i think your take on where literary scholars (another vague term) land isn’t quite right
It's virtually unanimous that epic poetry is in part celebrated for those three things. For instance:
>... the poems themselves have perhaps been less discussed than might have been expected, and the uniqueness of the Homeric style and picture of the world has not been fully brought out...
Griffin J. The Epic Cycle and the uniqueness of Homer. The Journal of Hellenic Studies. 1977;97:39-53. doi:10.2307/631020
The article proceeds to discuss various aspects of world-building and thematic development.
Please let me know what about the term you find vague.

Yes, the fear/avoidance/courage intermixed by the intervention of the gods (if taking the text at face value) is why it's so compelling to consider the psychological element of the human mind that the gods represent.

I'm not sure what you're issue with the semicolons is, but I'm happy to correct my writing if you can prove that I misused them. You may disagree with the style, but that's a less relevant point.

>>25529726

nta but founding of rome is closer to 2000bc than invention of wheel. ur being a passive aggressive cuck

>>25529759
that was never homer’s forte (pathos). homer’s style is his proper semi-barbaric flavour.

>Can you cite Greek poetry being a form of psychotherapy?
wdym. need i? they adopted the drama as the cleansing rite of religion.

the misuse of semicolon was
>jealousy; deformities; grudges; favoritism and selfishness; etc
semicolons are used for complex lists (where the items themself contains commas), i’m assuming you saw it used that way and just thought it was a cleverer way of writing lists?
also goes without saying i’m suspicious of someone who sends this
>Griffin J. The Epic Cycle and the uniqueness of Homer. The Journal of Hellenic Studies. 1977;97:39-53. doi:10.2307/631020
after thinking socrates was around 4000 years ago. ai? bit jarring. are we just going to look past that?

>>25529786
thanks dan snow. active aggressive if anything.

>>25529793
It may not be his forte or primary strength, but tenderness in spots exists all the same. The Shield of Achilles is perhaps the most famous example of Homer's perspective on the importance of Greek culture in peacetime.

You don't need to cite it, but it enriches the discussion. I think it would add dimensionality rather than preclude anything.

Semicolons are generally used to separate complex independent clauses, but that doesn't mean using them to emphasize separation of shorter terms (my intention, as I wanted to break up a laundry list and give each general characteristic greater consideration) is ungrammatical. If you can find me proof that it is, then I'll happily change my writing. Until then, your stylistic preferences remain as such.

Griffin is an eminent scholar in the field of classics. One of my favorite professors is in love with epic poetry (his favorite is Paradise Lost) and he's had an influence on my reading and the research I'd done for my minor in literature. The cite is from clicking the "Cite" button on Cambridge's website; it's easy to find that way.

Link: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-hellenic-studies/article/abs/epic-cycle-and-the-uniqueness-of-homer/BFC0713A10237654771675EC984EC575

>>25529804
>The Shield of Achilles is perhaps the most famous example of Homer's perspective on the importance of Greek culture in peacetime.
?

your professors favourite epic poem (out of all of them) is paradise lost? what’s it like going to colorado community college?

also - stating something confidently wrong, then reframing the correction as pedantry rather than admit the premise was false. didn’t a classical (not bronze age) greek philosopher have a thing about this?

>>25529822
Although my degree isn't from a community college, there's nothing wrong with going to one. Folks can save a lot of money on tuition and transfer to a nationally regarded university after two years as long as they do well.

I'm not sure what it is that you believe I stated incorrectly while also dismissing the correction as pedantry.

I'm also unclear on your question regarding the Shield of Achilles. Its depiction of agrarian culture during peacetime is an important part of Homer's depiction of the full cycle of life. I find its illustration of seasons of peace to be tender.

Anyway, I appreciate you helping keep the thread alive. If you want to have a conversation about Socrates' or Homer's work without the ad hominems, I'll be happy to respond. In any event, enjoy the rest of your evening.

ngl one of yall is a retarded cunt and its not the dude who got socrates years wrong

>>25529834
it wasn’t really meant to be a whole-hearted dig at community college but never mind.

yeah to keep things on topic though i’ll be personable: i have no idea how he was so kino despite living 4000 years ago.

apropos of nothing but if i wanted to samefag i’d do one post with proper grammar and capitalisation and the other with ‘ngl’ and ‘ur’

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>>25529842
>everyone who thinks im an idiot is samefagging

>>25529839
based
amen

>>25529849
? that wasn’t me

>>25529715
Prisoners? Aren’t you confusing it with the story of Athenian generals mentioned in the defence?

>>25529353
Socrates didn't live 4000 years!?
Not even Methuselah lived that long you cretin

>>25529861
Ah, it may have been about Athenian generals. I wasn't entirely sure. Thanks!

>>25529353
>4,000 years ago

i’m actually curious now - did you ever think about how long ago 4000 years was? do you have a vague idea of the lineage of humanity; jesus, rome, athens, mesopotamia, etc? have you heard of gilgamesh? when did you place that? might be interesting to follow this train of thought.