300 years of Rosseau cope and hobbes was right in the end.
>>25535623After first contact Europeans found many stateless societies in the Americas. None of them were in a state of "war of all against all".Hobbes is wrong because his arguments assume a faulty premise that has been debunked by the observation of the real world.
>>25535623Explain. And worth reading?
>>25535623kys cuck rat
>>25535641>ExplainExcuses of monarchy. It really isn't.
>>25535636What is a state?
>>25535636A tribal society is much closer to the state of Hobbesian monarchy than Hobbesian anarchy lmao
>>25535623Hobbes being right means 4chan should cease to exist.
Curious how every Hobbes fan is jewish. Makes you think
>>25535666Legitimately don't know what you're talking about, I've never seen academics ever use those terms.
>>25535655A work camp to support a lazy class of self-important monkeys.The pigs from Animal Farm pretty much found one>>25535666>A tribalWhich tribal? They have had hundreds of different types, anon. I think maybe you're grafting on what you know, from a movie or from contemporary states maybe. >>25535678Is King Charles a Jew, anon?
>>25535697Yes, he is. Spiritually, politically, and intellectually.
>>25535702>SpirituallyThis is all you'll have to justify the people you end up shooting, isn't it? Your airy fairy schizophrenia.
>>25535702Thats my great ancestor, fuck you.
>>25535716Shalom, brother
>>25535718I'm gonna rape you
>>25535623Is the OP arguing that we live in a Rousseauist world? Surely he can't be that stupid and has at least read his pamphlet-sized Considerations on the Government of Poland
Denied.
>>25535623japan disproves hobbesian theory. it turns out that without corrupt abrahamic religions people develop a social feeling/ conscientiousness that isn't based on fear of a higher power so they don't devolve into murderhobos when that power disappears>>25535674anons on 4chan don't have the ability to kill each other so it doesn't apply
there is a big scary man with a staff and sword?
>>25535623Hobbes was just a flat out authoritarian apologist and the state of nature was only a dual reflection of the Christian concept of the fall from eden and the fact that British society had no institutions holding chaos back other than political despotism. >>25535636This. Rousseu was right on anthropology, although social contract theory is bunk start to finish.
>>25535917>here's one single cherrypicked example to prove my pointMidwit identified! I repeat, midwit identified!
>>25535917>japan disproves hobbesian theory. it turns out that without corrupt abrahamic religions people develop a social feeling/ conscientiousness that isn't based on fear of a higher power so they don't devolve into murderhobos when that power disappearsYou can't be serious... Do you have even a passing familiarity with Japanese culture?
>>25535917>japan disproves hobbesian theory.>[society] that isn't based on fear of a higher power so they don't devolve into murderhobos when that power disappearsDo you even know a single thing about Japanese history?
>>25535917Since everybody gave you a (You) in a short span of time I'll add mine to it.Fuck you faggot
>>25535623Hobbes is South America, Locke is North America. Hobbes was right, yet you'll never move to South America?
>>25535623If Rousseau was right, seething non-white hag-roastie jannies wouldn't have deleted this threadhttps://warosu.org/lit/thread/25534974All Rousseauans are hypocrites, and cowards too.I'm off this board till the Gillette Stadium gang dies off.
>>25536363>an entire nation is a "cherrypicked example"lole>>25536369>>25536374>>25536381peer pressure isn't the state, dumbasses. the shogunate/ emperordidn't/ don't make the japanese pick up their trash
>>25536558Before 17th century Edo period, samurai would go around using peasants for Katana practice with zero reprecussions it only stopped because the shogun told them to knock it off
>>25536576you're conflating uchi-sute with the practice of testing blades on condemned criminals. i'm starting to think it's (You) who is talking out of his ass
>>25536580Call it whatever you want. You are missing the point that it only stopped after the Tokugawa Shogun enforced a top-down ban on it with capital punishment. Prior to that, the chaos of the warring daimyos let monstrous banditry flourish
>>25536585*tokugawa shogunate. you are clueless, no wonder you're a hobbesian
>>25535636I’m pretty sure the native were always at war with esch other
>>25536679According to Pierre Clastres, primitive tribes, in the amazon, are at war with each other especially so they don't have to form a State. Being at war with each other garantees the tribes will preserve their autonomy.
>>25536631please enlighten me, who was Shogun of the Tokugawa Shogunate?
>>25536798do you think ieyasu lived for 265 years. why are you so smug about being retarded
>>25536808I can't tell if you're only pretending to be retarded or if you honestly think you're being clever right now
>>25536815no need to talk to yourself out loud!
>>25536785Is Society Against The State worth getting?
>>25536785So what’s the point? They get crushed and conquered by another group that has a state. What is valuable in this state of monkey when it’s destroying your chance of survival? Bullshit thesis.
Hobbes was evidently not right. His premise is based on state of nature in which humans will not cooperate because it is more rational to not take the risk to cooperate. His argument relies on the fact that humans cannot co-exist peacefully among themselves by spontaneous cooperation or contract-based cooperation that does not rely on the sovereign guaranteeing the enforcement of that contract. If either of these were possible, his statement that any state (no matter how cruel or inhumane) is justified and ought not to be rebelled against ever, becomes suspect if two of the basic premises are questioned.First question that arises is how the state can be born in the first place if the cooperation is impossible. We would act against our rational nature if we decided to cooperate and risk everything for establishing a relationship. Even if we grant that cooperation is just very rare (which I don't think it is) it doesn't seem to follow that living in the state of nature is worse than any state that we can imagine. My second contention is that it seems quite evident that humans are not of the nature that hobbes claims us to be. It seems to me intuitively correct that humans do cooperate even when there is no coercive enforcer around.
>>25535636The pre contact Americas was full of war between groups. There is plenty of evidence. Look at SW cliff dwellers, you think they were spending so much effort to live in the most remote places for the sake of a pretty view?
>>25535623Hobbes commits a circular fallacy by projecting state-enforced, antagonistic property competition onto "human nature" (homo homini lupus), thereby falsely presenting the sovereign state as the necessary cure for the very conflict its own legal order creates
Rousseau was the first Anarchist, and Hobbes was the first Stalinist, but both were ultimately evil Socialists who should've been strung up and hung.
>>25535636Civilization is the natural state of man, not savagery. Yes I know Left-wing politics is all about identifying with savages, and sometimes even actual animals, but that's not really relevant to any serious discussion of the fate of mankind.
>>25536785Those tribes don't know about what is a State, I think that is just a consequence of what they do, not that they do it for that.
>>25537771Civilization is savagery. The poor support the few via state enforcement -- what can be civil about that?
>>25535636>Pre-contact America was a beautiful peaceful utopia where the native americans lived in harmony with nature, until the evil Europeans showed up, and brought war to the Americas for the first time to steal all their natural riches.Can you please finish High School before you post here.
>>25535917based weeb I'm kneeling as I post this
>>25537837You're free to begin dressing in animal skins and eating berries if you think this way, but until you do, don't expect me to take you seriously.
>>25537771>Left-wing politics is all about identifying with savagesUmm ... no.
>>25535623He was made right.
>>25537963Savages, beasts, and even insects are consistently forwarded as the prime justifications for the type of behaviour leftists promote -- why lie?
>>25537769Rousseau was the first fascist actually, sweaty
>>25537879>just live off the land broThe state and rich people made that punishable by prison
>>25537975Because lying is profitable for them
>>25535623This thread is a waste of time; I wish you weren't allowed to post.
>>25535623I'm not an expert, I know the basics about Rousseau and Hobbes but I guess Rousseau went to some island where he met some peaceful tribes living in harmony with nature, just fishing, hunting and having fun and he wanted to live like that so he made his theory from that experience. But the reality is that he could have also met the tribes that killed and eat each other or anyone that came close to them and his ideas would have been very different. Most tribes are constantly killing each other, the ones that don't kill each other is because they live isolated and have enough land or sea in between them so they live without conflict.I will give another example that maybe sounds silly but I think it proves that civilization is better to the stay of nature. Can you imagine how would your city look like if people were allowed to just do whatever they like and there wouldn't be police fining people for bad behaviors? It would be a giant garbage and dog shit zone. People have to be civilized, taught how to behave well and be civilized, and also fined by the police if they don't do it.
>>25537985No, that was EnmebaragesiThe modern age proto-fascists? de Sade>sweetyGayge
>>25537769Sir Robert Filmer it is then!
>>25537212>It seems to me intuitively correct that humans do cooperate even when there is no coercive enforcer around.Imagine that there is no law and no police that regulates the use of public beaches. Do you think that people will cooperate and maintain them clean and for the use that is normal? I don't think so, you would have people permanently living in tents, making fires, littering, making parties, etc.Now apply that to every other aspect of society. If there is no law and no police to force people to behave well it would be chaos and the law of the stronger one would prevail.
>>25535678Yeah, like Carl Schmitt.
>>25538051We also literally can't, you absolute faggot. The last time we were 'living off the land', we were at less than a billion people total on this planet. If you're not prepared to gas absolutely everyone on this planet who isn't white, you're not prepared to kill enough people to return to us all living off the land. Simple as.
>>25537136Well i think so. The guy Pierre Clastres lived with these indigenous for a while so he did his research properly. >>25537824Primitive tribes in the amazon actually knew that there were civilizations, empires, out of the forest. The old chiefs must have known that any kind of merging with other tribes would have resulted in something similar.
>>25539284The law of the strongest would eventually lead to some form of aristocracy having power, and at least some parts of society would then be kept under control.
>>25538089>>25537248>>25536679The fact that native peoples engaged in warfare does not mean they lived in a Hobbesian state of nature. Tribes in conflict still require the cooperation of their constituent members. It would be more honest to compare inter-tribal dynamics to the chaos of international relations among modern nations, where something closer to Hobbes's vision manifests itself.
>>25535683>socially approved authority did not use these terms therefore i cant understand these terms even though their meaning is extremely evidentutterly over-socialised behaviour, you probably dont even realise how soulless you are
