Finally finished Joyce's Ulysses and was expecting to find troves of discussion of it on the archive but found surprisingly few threads that actually went past the typical cuck jokes.So what are your thoughts on the book? Favourite passages, favourite characters, annoyances, what was u.p u.p, who was the macintosh man etc etc
Its a story of the everyday life of an everyman but in its finitudes contains the infinitudes of the universe.
Stephen was insufferable, every time the whole ghost of his own father thing was referenced I wanted to bash my head against a wall
>to write a poem after Auschwitz is barbaric-Theodor AdornoIt's undoubtedly a great work of art and a brilliant technical achievement, but I can't help but think of it as naive and out of touch given the historical context. It started coming out during the Great War, but Joyce seems content not acknowledging the atrocities it spawned in any way, instead preaching his specific brand of pacifism that proved to be widely out of touch given that WW2 arrived merely two decades later.I was in a Hiroshima museum recently and it made me reevaluate how I view 20th century art. The Bomb's very existence changes the entirety of the 20th century, both the first and second half. In that context, Ulysses feels like feels like a Haydn piece performed on a kazoo; a great composition marred by the context it finds itself in.With that said, it's a great bit of highly imaginative writing, with Sirens and Circe being my favourites. I'd like to call Joyce a descendant of Lewis Carroll, if it weren't for the fact that he apparently only read Alice in the middle of writing Finwake. He's also surprisingly great at characterisation, I expected nothing but wordplay and formal experimentation going in, and instead got one of the most vivid character portraits in literature.
>>25543310>The BombThe Cold War was a huge nothingburger
>>25543321The poo in loos have an A-bomb. That thought should leave you terrified.
>>25543310I see what you mean anon but I’d disagree with you about it being naive, I actually think it presents a very powerful response to the war crazy nature of Homer. Pacifism seems naive at first but it’s because of the horrors of things like World War II and the atomic bomb that I believe it might be the only way for humans to survive. I’m certain you’ve heard of it before, if you haven’t already read it, but Blood Meridian provides another argument for pacifism that is absolutely not naive. Cormac McCarthy himself was a huge fan of Ulysses.>>25543167My second favorite novel of all time anon. I had trouble with it the first go around but the second time I loved it. Buck Mulligan is one of my favorite characters of all time.
>>25543310A good point, to be sure. I think something Ulysses does examine that was ahead of its time though and can't be called naive is colonialism and post-colonialism
>>25543335I wouldn't call the Odyssey war-crazy. It contrasts with the Iliad by being much more domestic and whimsical, and it shows what happens when a war veteran attempts to reintegrate with the civilised society by emphasising the brutality of (however deserved) massacre of the suitors.The Iliad itself can also be read as being anti-war. Just like Blood Meridian it drowns you in depictions of violence and the loss of so many souls. Though of course it's much more ambiguous in the Iliad, it both glorifies and vilifies war.My problem lies not in pacifism itself, but rather in the way it is presented. Maybe, as in the Dostoevsky pastas, I am too vulgar and too concerned with sadi-masochistic pursuit of pathos, but to me a call to pacifism needs to be contrasted with the horrors of war. >For it is still pleasing, to a Christian man, to suffer him selfe the studie of wickednesse, that he may content him selfe (without sinfull pride) upon the contrast thereof with his owne rectitude. To say naught of that truth, whereto Augustine and other Fathers beare witnesse: that true virtue lieth not in innocence, but in full knowledge of the Devils subtile arts… >had not the illustrious Augustine, for example, essayed the manifold refinements of the flesh, the better to know and appreciate virtue?
I hear people here call Molly fat but its clearly not the case, certainly not by the standards that we would call someone fat today. You have to remember that this took place in Ireland with the famines still in cultural memory and so an "irresistibly plump" Spanish woman would stand out from the typical flat pale asses Irish women had. It would be more similar to how we use thicc or fertile childbearing hips today
>>25543388I'd certainly Bond burger Molly desu
>>25543310I don't really understand your point of view, it clearly foreshadowed the nationalistic and antisemetic rhetoric that was growing at the time and even though he wrote it during the war the bulk of material he had been planning for years before it even started. Adornos quote was him just being poetic and wasn't meant to be taken as literally as you make it.
>>25543403>Bond burgerExcuse me?
>>25543412hownew.ru
>>25543416that site isn't loading for me. I don't trust sketchy russian sites anyway
>>25543211did you read portrait first
>>25543388>writes about Molly wanting to seduce his self insert Joyce you dirty dog
>>25543439Yeah but its been a while and I don't remember it having that level of pseudo intellectualism other than maybe near the end
>>25543310Explain this mindset, I can't even begin to empathize. Why would his art have to concern itself with real world events at all? Who cares? It's not a work of moralism. Why would real life atrocities prevent one from creating beauty through art, what does one have to do with the other? And most importantly, atrocities of all sorts happened all throughout history, why do you consider the 20th century ones special in some mystical way?
>>25543310>to write a poem after Auschwitz is barbaricI'm not going to be lectured about my art by a fucking Jew. Speaking of HISTORY, Adorno, let's talk about the last 80 years of Jew-dominated politics and culture and how fucking shitty it's been, and how it's sufficient to judge the Jews as a race as absolutely terrible. Bet that bald old freak wouldn't enjoy THAT historical assessment, would he?
>>25543488If you don't see how less than 1 kg of explosive material killing more than 100000 people differs from the previous, local conflicts, then I don't know what to tell you.
>>25543531I'd rather die instantly to a nuke than be sliced apart with a sword or ritually sacrificed or impaled or what have you. Either way what does that have to do with art?
>>25543497Ah yes famous Jews Trump, Elon, Obama, Bush dominating politics. Its sad that the character of the dumb citizen still lives on in people like you today
>>25543310>>25543321>>25543531Ironically, nuclear weapons changed absolutely nothing, far more deaths occured from conventional weapons, nobody could actually use nukes because they would destroy the world, and so we just continued torturing and warring like usual because the object of war was never to win in the first place, the fear was all made up and turned into simulacra by movies like Oppenheimer and moronic duck and cover drills, Baudrillard was right again.
>>25543557>Trump, Elon, Obama, Bush dominating politics.Kek, imagine thinking any of those people have any say, you're even more naive than him, you don't know who rules you and you never will, just keep dealing in the real world.
>>25543574I just don't think the world is ruled by shadowy cabals that don't leave any trace of themselves.
>>25543557What is AIPAC, Schlomo?
>>25543570What about rogue states like the US who flaunt their nuclear prowess in order to invade random ass countries.>>25543581I really don't think AIPAC are governing the entire world.
>>25543557>the character of the dumb citizenThe people in the pub were 100% right about Bloom, he was a pervert nonce and 50% of his thoughts were about how he was going to exploit native Irishmen.
>>25543597He's also a freemason which most people miss.
>>25543380>it shows what happens when a war veteran attempts to reintegrate with the civilised society by emphasising the brutality of (however deserved) massacre of the suitors.No it doesn't lol
>>25543167>who was the macintosh manI thought it was pretty obvious that it was Joyce himself as the "ghost" father of Stephen
>An ashplant is a walking stick I read it thinking it was a literal plant he was just carrying about and dancing with lol. It was funnier imagining him breaking the lamp by smashing a potted plant over it
I feel like my first reading was just getting my bearings and knowing what was going on. I don't think I can fully appreciate it until I reread it
Why did Joyce leave Ireland? It seemed like from his writing it was where he felt at home
The book would have been better if it focuses on Buck Mulligan. I want to hear about his day over some dude who just thinks about getting cucked the entire day.
This is what happens when you try to discuss literature on this board lol
>>25543661It was the most irish thing he could do
I enjoyed Dubliners more, they are basically the same book but Ulysses is dressed up in a bunch of different styles. Its the same old "character is coping with something and then has an epiphany" but in more words.
>>25543637People put too much thought into the Macintosh man. He wasn't anything more than just someone Bloom or his friends didn't know. The joke at the end when Bloom is falling asleep thinking about his identity is the viewer asking "but who was phone"
>>25543637I thought it obvious that it was the ghost of Dignam.
>>25543661Read the Portrait. He outgrew the place.
>>25543452That's the whole point about Stephen. He is a pseudo-intellectual, but with the potential to become a real one.
I didn't even realize Milly and Molly were two different people and I thought Boyland was their son. I don't know how you guys can understand anything going on in this
>>25543310Ulysses is set in 1904.
>>25543167It was pretty good but now that im out of my plastic paddy phase i just dont have that much interest in reading it again.
>>25543321It prevented a Third World War, and consumed the budgets of the major powers for decades. So much so that the Soviet Union collapsed.
>Bloom was born in the year when T Coronae Borealis went through a nova>T Coronae Borealis is also called the Blaze star>Blaze Boylan Heh, that man truly can't escape the Big Blaze Boylan Cock
>>25543655Correct. You'll enjoy it much more when you re-read.
Ive always heard people hyping up the Penelope chapter as one of the best in all of literature, I thought it was going to be some sweet sentimental story of her youth in Gibraltar but the whole thing was just her talking shit about other women, calling them "faggots" about all the cocks she's taken and a giant list of all her lovers that even included Stephens dad and some priest and even the finale "Yes I said yes I will YES" proceeds directly from her saying "meh might as well marry him as any other old dude" which makes it weird that people use it as kind of a romantic story
Not as good as Finnegan's Wake imo>Begin again, FinneganThe opening still gives me chills, every time
>>25543754>Finnegan's Wake >'sfake fan
>>25543586They don't use nukes so how is it helping them in war? Nukes only prevent you from being invaded, they don't increase your offensive capabilities.
>>25543769The fact that the enemy doesn't have them as well, would they really be invading a country that could launch a nuke
>ermmm aktually gerty wasn't flirting with bloom or flashing her panties, that was all just blooms fantasy Nooo shut the fuck up, don't ruin it for me. She also wasn't club footed, she sprained her ankle on Dalkey hill
>>25543388Why does no one call out Molly for fantasizing about seducing a boy, she's a nonce
>>25543497Shut up nigga you watch anime
>>25543661Because he was a stubborn moron. Literally leaving a pacifist nation to move to the mainland during two world wars. Probably would have lived longer if he never left
>>25543310Stop roleplaying
The man in the mac is the reader. Think about it
>>25543755>Begin again, FinneganYou think?
>>25543753Penelope is a redpill.
>>25543991Sorry I spelled the name of the book wrong but I stand by my opinion. That line gives me chills
>>25543753>>25543994She's practically begging Bloom to stop being such a cuck and actually fuck her. You can't put all the blame on her when Bloom is so impotent
>>25543728.....bruh
>>25543753i'm very, very happy this masterpiece novel did not end like some shitty saccharine rom-com or whatever your gf forces you to watch on saturdays
>>25543310Your kind exists in every era, and it needs to be always ignored.>"Nooo you can't do art anymore because X thing happened and I've decided, from my biased, ignorant and arrogant perspective, that it's the greatest tragedy ever, so I'm taking away your right to talk or think about anything else ever again."You are the intellectual equivalent of a bucket of diarrhea.
>People surprised a book that obsessively exemplifies Molly's promiscuity ends in the said character talking about her relationships
>>25544063Settle down spergie
>>25544063He's trolling. Not even Adorno stuck by that quote
>>25544077Some modern readers are trained to expect the ending of a book to have some epic rug-pull plot twist, I guess.
I read a section and can say joyce is mentally ill. probably schizophrenic
>>25543380I hear you anon about the way it’s presented but I still love it. Maybe I’m fooled by the technical skills but I think Ulysses presents a good example of pacifism in every day modern civilized life—which hopefully is what most of us will experience.I also think Blood Meridian is less ambiguous about glorifying war than you think. I think it presents pacifism, even pacifism in the midst of horrifying brutal evil, as one of the few hopes for humanity. I think that’s the reason why the kid [Spoiler] doesn’t shoot the judge at the end./spoiler
Its a book about the burden of being a man and having to live with the fact that all women will inevitably cheat on you given enough time. Bloom is one of the most respectable people in the book and even he is not enough for Molly.
>>25543629Does that not happen in the book?
>>25544313>Ulysses presents a good example of pacifism in every day modern civilized lifeHow would it even do the contrary, its a book about a day in dublin, they aren't fighting in any wars
>>25543586"Trump, Elon, Obama, Bush" These are all American figures and all under Mossad payroll/influence. Stop moving the goal posts.
>>25543586AIPAC is a part of the control mechanism, like the CIA and all their children agencies. They're just a part of transnational capital and the Western oligarchs that own it all.
>>25543167Best chapter was Nausicaa Worst was Oxen of the Sun
>>25543167>what was u.p u.p,I don't know what is u.p with you?
>>25544316If Bloom had actually fulfilled his conjugal duties, Molly might not have cheated on him.
>>25545704>If Bloom had actually fulfilled his conjugal dutiesWhat the hell are you talking about?
am i allowed to read a translation?
>>25545704>victim blamingHe was nothing but the perfect husband, its not his fault Rudolph died
>>25546971I just don't know how a translation would work, so much of it is just word play on the English language
>>25543167It's a marvelous book, really. I'm currently on the Nausicaa chapter (2nd reading). I've got a million things to say about it this time through. The most urgent:>Molly is a proper slag>It's disappointing how anti-Irish Joyce is>Stephen's inner monologue is outrageously dense in spots and very impressive, but he's generally a sniveling faggot>It's funny whenever people shit on Bloom>This book is painfully philo-Semitic>The amount of esoteric references is worthy of attention>Every time Joyce approaches writing something concise and quotable, he fucks it up by adding a bunch of "mummyrumpers : Ay! To shy big Blarney's heave and heft of it, all goosewracked and slimmered, stonelike" fucking nonsense after it. It's really no surprise "Ulysses" is the single greatest unquotable book in existence, beyond "Finnegans Wake." >The overall density is staggering -- just majestic, really>The ending of the "Cyclops" chapter is genuinely astounding -- what high-class stuffI could go on.
>>25547485>It's disappointing how anti-Irish Joyce isHow? He's poking fun of the ultra nationalists but not Ireland itself.>This book is painfully philo-SemiticIn what way? I would hardly call Bloom a Semitic figure
>>25547485>Finnegans Wake isn't quotablekys
>>25547497Throughout his whole oeuvre, you see a disappointment with Ireland. "Ulysses" is no different. He barely ever shows satisfaction with any aspect of Irish life -- especially when it comes to the individual people. I get a feeling of overwhelming criticality when reading his work.>I would hardly call Bloom a Semitic figureHe's not exactly your typical one -- Joyce works hard to remind you of that throughout the book -- but it's clear he's different from the people around him, and he's constantly venerated to the reader because of it, despite the fact that the people around him don't like him much.>>25547524It's only quotable if you want to entertain people, confuse them, or draw a bit of wonder from them with its inscrutability. Don't pretend you go around around quoting anything more than its opening line, one or two of the "thunder words," or maybe a childish phrase here and there. ("So weenybeenyveenyteeny"!)
>>25547524Lmfao, right? Just consider the opening line:>Begin again, FinneganStill gives me chills to this day
>>25547549Case in point. lol.
