battle of the blackwater editionASOIAF wiki: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Main_PageBlog: https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/Old blog: https://grrm.livejournal.com/So Spake Martin (interviews): https://westeros.org/citadel/ssm/Book search: https://asearchoficeandfire.com/SSM search: https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=006888510641072775866:vm4n1jrzsdyGeneral search: http://searcherr.work/TWOW samples: https://archive.org/details/411440566-the-winds-of-winter-released-chaptersold: >>25538346
HE FUCKING WANTED IT AFTER ALL
What 15 years of no Winds does to a mf
>>25561273Viserys being delusional about the Mad King tier.
Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up, she was shitting brown water. The more she drank the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew.
Now that we know that we’re never getting Winds, what exactly was the lore behind Hodor? What exactly did the show reveal with the Hodor “hold the door” thing? I’m assuming it has to do with Bran warging time traveling shenanigans or no?
THE GOLDEN ERA
Bloodraven was viciously and brutally cucked by his oneitis
>>25561294Bran mindraped an innocent man to be his buckbroken retard slave his entire life.Btw he's the good guy and him becoming king is the good end according to George.
>>25561598>Bran mindraped an innocent man to be his buckbroken retard slave his entire life.literally at the bottom of most evil things done in the series even putting aside that it was accidental
>>25561282>mil há 2 dias>>25561285tower nigger seething
im the same mexican who started the series from months ago, im reading at the my free time in my job.Im around 200 pages in AGOT and the best chapters are by far of Catelyn, im not disliking any particulary POV so far except maybe Bran
>>25562182How is your favorite not Ned, he absolutely owns AGOT. Dany's are probably my second favorite, she and Jon do a switcheroo where her chapters steadily get worse as the series goes on while Jon's get better.
>>25562192All the conspiracy and the plot is being pushing foward by Catelyn, i like Bob and Ned shenanigan but Catleyn chapters are the ones with the a lot things happenings so far1) Catelyn2) Tyrion3) Ned4) Dany5) Sansa6) Jon7) Arya8) Bran
>>25562192>NedNTA, but how is Ned good in your opinion? He's an idiot that willingly stepped into the same bear trap as Jon, but it's even worse since he was aware of Jon's fate and he had a chance with Renly but blew it.
>>25561598>>25561603How did that go about, though? Bran wasn't warging into Hodor much in the beginning? ...or was he? And then, how does that tie to Hodor = hold the door?
>>25562482Bran can affect the past. The same way he was able to make Ned and Theon hear his voice across large distances and different times, he was able to reach in the past and mindfuck Hodor in order to set up the events in the future where Hodor becomes his useful slave.
>>25562449nta I personally believe that Ned gets a lot of unjust scrutiny on his actions. Catelyn told him to trust Petyr, Ned counted on Renly backing him up, Bob's death came unexpectedly and he grossly underestimated how much leverage the Lannisters had, which is why he threatened Cersei with revealing everything. Let's also not forget that nobody in their right mind would expect Joffrey to decapitate such a valuable political prisoner. The only thing I really hold against him is the Cersei confession thing. Every other decision he made made some sense to me.
>>25562483Oh shit. That's even worse than I imagined. And how does the Hodor = door thing specifically come in? The phrase and all that.
>>25562490Hodor will need to hold a door and block the way for long enough to allow Bran to escape the Others attacking. Bran basically gave him a psychic order that fried his brain so hard that not only did he forget his own sense of self-preservation, but fucked him up all the way back into his childhood to allow him to be in that place and time to begin with.
Is it pronounced damp hair or damph air?
>>25562574From the fat man himself: it is "damP hair"
>>25562498That is pretty fucked up. I wonder how it would've played out in the books. Thanks for the info
>>25562610>I wonder how it would've played out in the books.The general points are from Martin himself so more or less the same.
>>25562449Putting aside the fact that I agree with the other anon that Ned's stupidity is heavily overplayed and viewpoints of stupid characters can be fun regardless, Ned is a good viewpoint character because he has a good internal voice. Considering the entire gimmick of the series is how different people see the events of the plot unfolding, each viewpoint lives and dies by how good their thoughts and feelings are, just as much as the dialogue. There's a reason that characters who only exist to relay a certain piece of the plot without any interesting commentary like Areo Hotah are widely disliked.
>>25562192I can't remember the last time I liked a Dany chapter.
>>25562574Dotrice made it 'dam-fair'. But it's supposed to be damp hair like some pseudo-rustic nordic name like Harald Bluetooth.
>>25562483>Bran can affect the past.Still unsolved if he's actually changing anything or if it's predestined.
>makes targfags seethe B-bad writing, NO ONE resists the dragon, m-mary sue!!!
>>25561285Would Viserys have been less retarded and nasty if he had not been malnourished as a kid? Dany remembers him as nice and as giving her food when they were starving.
>>25562706there's no difference if you think about it long enough
>>25563162>marries into the targs, queen elia and her kids get ack'd as a result and now the retarded whore of sunspear is looking to tie herself to a blackfyre>meanwhile the starks finally marry into the targ line and create the warg prince who was promisedsorry sister, first men win again
>>25563184>targfags don’t even defend themselves anymore, they just look at you with this face and say “but muh first men”
>>25563205not a targfag, just a rh*ynish hater for wasting my time with the most dogshit chapters i have ever had the displeasure of reading
Has the fat man written the book yet?
>>25563184>meanwhile the starks finally marry into the targ line and create the warg prince who was promisedJon snow is dead lil bro, time to accept it
>>25563304he's alive in ghost blud
>>25563304>he is STILL coping
>>25561213>you will never charge across a bridge of burning ships in service of the true king
>>25563493>"When we were shooting Season 1>Season 1 of Game of Thrones was filmed between July 23 and December 18, 2010>a dance of dragons released July 11 2011 >”As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it”>”I’m having all kinds of trouble. Have you ever killed somebody off that you later realized that you needed?…I just painted myself into a corner”He went off script to shake things up and gardened himself into killing Jon, and won’t revive him because of his Gandalf resurrection stance, he’d be a hypocritical hack if he went that route. David and Dan wrote a what-if fan fiction version of George’s original plan. But Book Jon is 100% dead.
>>25563533retardJon is 100% coming back in pog form to tear Ramsay Snow's bastard heart out and eat it (and get his bride back)
>>25563533do you cope about this every thread or what? what turns you into such a seething wreck about the basic fact that jon is coming back, something on the level of shireen dying in terms of being full on confirmed. as recently as 2016 (https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/12862) grrm has confirmed knowing the "fates" of the major lannisters and starks, with jon being explicitly mentioned, an odd thing to say if jon simply just bit it at the end of adwd and he'd been out of the story for 5 years. just give it up dude, he's coming back and you can be assured it will be more interesting than the show.
>>25562574damn fair
>>25563551>you can be assured it will be more interesting than the showTrue, cuz he’ll just be ghost forever and no one but the reader will know Jon is inside (he’s not gonna come back as an edgier undead version of your favorite anime protagonist to save the day fulfill the prophecy bang the hot blonde and become the chosen one, hate to burst your bubble)
>>25563614no he'll come back and probably be half mad and violent in an off-putting way while missing critical memories, will likely have gross body wounds like beric and stoneheart, the others will be defeated by collaboration and then jon will wander off without becoming king despite being le epic hidden prince. jon seethers are more annoying than jon wankers at this point, you guys are so bootyblasted by people making up horseshit about him being some great hero (i was shitposting about him being tptwp btw, prophecies have never worked like that in asoiaf) that at this point you're just mad that the character exists, is relevant to the plot and will continue to be relevant to the plot after he's revived as martin has all but openly stated. you keep coping about the gandalf resurrection stance while ignoring that grrm didn't just bring back beric from the dead but catelyn too, who is a major character.
>”song of ice and fire”>main characters are jon(ice) and dany(fire), the intended thematic hearts of the series>they are actually the worst parts of the story, and the true soul was always the political intrigue in the south, Jon and dany are just disconnected side stories George realizes this too that’s why he lost interest when it came time to move past the game of thrones
>>25563757>and the true soul was always the political intrigue in the southLol I beg to differ, AFFC is dogshit precisely for just overplaying the political conflict from the first three novels past the point where it was interesting. Jaime, as usual, is the only saving grace.
>>25562574Dump chair
Is Ilyn Payne a spy? He's set up like a spy, with the missing tongue, but at the same time I don't think we see people acting on secret info he would have acess to or him doing anything too suspicious.
>>25563520There, there, little man
>>25563304>danyfagWoman or tranny.
Once you realize that asoiaf is only superficially realistic/“realistic”, and it’s in fact a quite surreal and dreamish setting below the surface, you’ll enjoy the world a lot more thoroughly and sincerely.
>>25564136GRRM follows the "rule of cool". He adds a bunch of people, cultures, city designs etc. with the only logic being that it sounds cool. The worldbuilding is not based on anything other than whatever GRRM finds cool in the moment.
The wrong Targaryens died. Daenerys's older brothers Rhaegar and Viserys would have gone home by now
>>25564136It's a Gothic fantasy trying to be a realistic fantasy and very few neckbeards realize itIn a weird way the Narnia books are more realistic
>Viserys making it half as far as DanyMayhap in a darker world where Ser Jorah was a woman
Where did this idea that fAegon is somehow a deconstruction of Jon being the perfect hidden Targ prince come from? Jon is fucking dead currently and the reader isn't supposed to even suspect his true identity or even revival. By the time Jon even learns the truth (and Gurm will absolutely treat it as a shocking test) fAegon will have probably bitten it ages ago. If anything the character kind of seems like an excuse to get Dany to Westeros and have some drama with Jon when it's leaked that there's once again a man claiming to be Rhaegar's secret son.
>>25563973?Fuck that whore, dany and Jon are both trash characters
>to fight against slavery is madnessgenius gurm, pure genius
>>25563954>dude BELTS lmao xDFucking hate this artist.
>>25564567Another guy also fought against slavery and was labeled mad. You support both right? If not you’re a hypocrite
>>25563771>He dislikes based Cersei chaptersfiltered pleb
>>25563757True. When I read, I skip all the Essos, Dorne, Iron Islands, and Bran chapters.
>>25564651They're entertaining but not enough to save AFFC imo.
in this housh shtannis baratheon is a hero
>>25564521You have to put out there what characters you actually like if you're going to continually seethe about two of the main characters of the series.
>>25563162>rivers just magically appears in a desert.
>>25565357I mean there are some hills that could explain it
>>25565310All the other characters are great
Westeros feels so fucking empty when every single village is deserted or burned down, and the inhabited places are inns with 5 people in them.
>>25565357Gurmy wouldn't be so insufferable if he stuck to one view. He was clever in getting a handful of very quotable stuff out in front of the media though to ensure the widespread perception was REAL HARDCORE GROUNDED FANTASY with crap like 'tax policy' and 'women are people' and 'real birds don't have 4 legs'
>>25563624>he'll come backStopped reading there, no he won’t, that’s not George’s style
>>25566636yeah it is, catelyn came back.
>>25567303Z's are so fucked
>>25567303Tormundpilled.He will figure it out
>>25566230The problem comes from GRRM writing much of the story before figuring out the setting, thus ending up with the vast wind swept deserts of Dorne, just a stones throw away from the rain soaked temperate rain forests of the Stormlands.
>>25568133>thus ending up with the vast wind swept deserts of Dorne, just a stones throw away from the rain soaked temperate rain forests of the Stormlands.Yeah, that's DEFINITELY not possible in real life, having temperate forests a few hundred miles from a vast desert: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_California_coastal_forests.
The most unrealistic part is how Barristan handled the mad king.Most mentally ill kings in history just had regents
Aegon is the last bastion of the blackfyre lineage
Daenerys madness will take an extreme turn after finding out that she was a fake the entire time and Aegon was the real deal after his heritage is confirmed. There will be a reverse Roberts Rebellion situation but it will be Daenerys cast in the role of Robert and Sansa and Aegon in the role of Lyanna and Aegon.
fAegon is a non-entity, he is a plot device to get Dany to Westeros and to be suspicious of Jon, the people who claim investment in this nothingburger of a character are at peak contrarianism because we've been waiting for 15 years.
>>25568544he is blackfyre
(Assuming winds comes out, which I don’t think it will at this point) the plot point I’m most hyped about is the hound coming out of retirement for vengeance after the nu-brotherhood slaughters quiet isle
>>25568143Gee, I wonder what could be causing that?...
>>25568949And of course, Dorne doesn't have a mountain range in its north, right...?
>>25568544The nothingburger has already landed in the Stormlands and is now threatening to conquer the entire district at a time when the Lannister/Tyrell axis has been deprived of its best brains and is busy dealing with the Ironborn.Not to mention that south of the lands controlled by Aegon/Jon lies the intact and pro-Targaryen land of Dorne, which is probably not going to feel too hesitant when it comes to fighting for a Targaryen against the Tyrells
Jon was murdered due to the curse of kinslaying since he was personally responsible for Aemon's death
>>25568965ntathe problem with that is the rainshadow’s on the wrong side of the mountainsif anything, dorne should be the rainy onein my mind, the best way to reconcile this is if there was a cold current along dorne that that denies it the high temperature waters that allows precipitationhow the summer sea storms travel up the narrow sea and crash into the stormlands is still beyond me though
>>25569672
For me, it's going to be finishing this story using LLMs with some of David Lightbringer's ideas in about 3-5 years.
>>25569582He's not a nothingburger in terms of accomplishing things, he's a nothingburger in terms of plot relevance. He's not making it to the end and probably isn't even making it to Dany arriving at Westeros, GRRM blatantly wanked his own dick foreshadowing it with the cyvasse scene and Arianne trying to worm her way into his circle (she always ruins people she seduces). He mostly exists to get Dany to Westeros because GRRM couldn't really think of anything that would cause her to immediately abandon Meereen except another Targaryen claimant, and it baffles me that people think that he's going to be some heavily fleshed out character. Even people's theories about him (dude the smallfolk and nobles are going to totally love him somehow with no reservations so that Dany becomes a Fire and Blood conqueror and he's going to deconstruct Jon being a secret prince!!!) have more to do with his effect on other characters than his own character.
>>25569898>david lightbringer Doesn’t he think dany is the hero and won’t go mad? Kinda lost all credibility after that stuff has been proven time and time again to be canon
>>25569922>probably isn't even making it to Dany arriving at WesterosPretty clear he and connington will rule in kings landing when dany burns the city
>>25570074The cyvasse game foreshadowing ("keep your dragons close" and Tyrion later thinking that it's baffling that Aegon took his pretty poor advice) makes it seem more like King's Landing will accidentally explode itself somehow while the Golden Company takes it or he'll die in a march to the Westerlands or something and Dany's going to arrive to a dead Targaryen. But he might survive. Either way it's going to color Dany's reaction to Jon imo, if he dies before she reaches him I think she's going to cling to Jon even harder as her last living family member or if she does nuke him at King's Landing she's going to see Jon as another fake and start off with a hostile relationship with him. Regardless, I will be very surprised if he survives TWOW, and I don't think he's going to have the sweeping successes people theorize, because it isn't George's way. The fact that Varys gives a huge speech about how perfectly Aegon's been set up to rule means he's absolutely going to die in some sudden and anti-climactic way, George's setups are pretty obvious at this point.
>>25570091Actually reverse that, if Aegon dies she might see Jon as the mummer's dragon with Aegon being real (which would be fittingly biting irony) and if he's still alive and Dany goes to war against him she'll probably believe Jon's parentage and try to ally him.
>>25568544>he is a plot device to get Dany to WesterosDany is not getting to Westeros in Winds.
>>25570232Probably not, because all George knows is bloat, which is why I think Aegon's gonna die before she ever gets there, but the impetus for her leaving is absolutely going to be reports of her supposed long lost nephew landing in Westeros to retake the throne.
OMG i finally realized, ned didnt wanted to kill Daenerys and Viserys because he didnt wanted to kill John's aunt and uncle, not just because they were children and daenerys later pregnant
>>25570235fAegon cannot die before Dany gets their. The whole "The Mummer's Dragon" thing. If he dies before she sees him then their was no point to this warning>>25570244That may have played a part yes
how many times i have to tell you, fAegon is Blackfyre
>>25570246Also George already stated there was going to be a second dance of dragons, so Aegon and dany will come into conflict at some and have a civil war
>>25570258>3 dragons>3 targs emerge>immediately begin infightinghaha.....
>>25570244I don't remember him ever objecting to Viserys' death, he just didn't like killing children.>>25570258There is absolutely nothing preventing it from being between Jon and Dany or even between Dany and Euron assuming Euron gets his hands on one of her dragons.
You don't understand. A Jon/fAegon/Dany love triangle is coming. This is the new Dance.
So uhhhh...about that new Dunk and Egg?
>The second Dance of Dragons does not have to mean Dany's invasion. George stopped himself short and said he shouldn't say anymore. - Comic-Con (San Diego, CA; July 20-23 2006)What did the fatman mean by this?
>>25570326Lmao.>>25570333Jon v fAegon
faegon will die trying to claim one of danys dragons and then tyrion will claim one
>>25570333That Euron/the Others are going to gain control of Viserion in the service of ending the world, I don't know how people haven't accepted that the show probably got its broad strokes from him.
>>25570341What about Rhaegal
>>25570382Jon's going to ride him, that's straight from the show and fitting considering his father.
Winds is gonna subvert everyones expectations so hard
>>25570468the subversion is that is never coming out
>>25570468No, it won't. Gurm isn't gonna throw away stuff he set up.
>>25570468George has a lot of flaws but he's not "do the opposite of what everyone expects no matter how dumb" tier like Rian Johnson. If he foreshadowed something he's going to do it, even if it matches up with the show.
>>25569582The Vale is utterly useless.
Faegon is going to get syphillis from Arianne, go crazy, drink wildfire and die (he's a secret descendant of Aerion Brightflame, not a Blackfyre)
>>25570533Kino incoming
>She wanted to see if it would be as easy with a woman as it had always been with Robert. Ten thousand of your children perished in my palm, Your Grace, she thought, slipping a third finger into Myr. Whilst you snored, I would lick your sons off my face and fingers one by one, all those pale sticky princes. You claimed your rights, my lord, but in the darkness I would eat your heirs.>And not down the gullet either. That was madness. These would-be dragonslayers might as well try to quench a fire with a spear thrust. "Death comes out of the dragon's mouth," Septon Barth had written in his Unnatural History, "but death does not go in that way."
Ahhh I am unable to get past the first book A Game of Thrones, should I just drop it?
>>25570712I don't get it, she put them in her pooper?
>>25570712>"Death comes out of the dragon's mouth," Septon Barth had written in his Unnatural History, "but death does not go in that way."This is why Tyrion Targaryen didn't contract greyscale. >When he opened his mouth to curse them all, black water filled his lungs, and the dark closed in around him.>“How long must I continue to torture myself? When will we be certain that I’m clean?”>“Truly?” said the Halfmaester. “Never. You swallowed half the river.
>>25570498At this point the subversion would be that it does come out
>>25570715>should I just drop it?If you're the one that keeps spamming about how you try to read it at work, what difference does it even make?You only read like 10 pages per month anyway.
>>25568791? Sandor is 100 percent dead.
>>25571253:3
I dont get why martin thinks varys is actually a good guy. The bald is more morally suspicious and evil tham it seems
>>25571529I don't think he does, in the very last chapter Varys says that Kevan is too competent and might actually bring peace but he wants a different ruler so he has to kill him, which seems pretty evil to me. Only showfags seem to think he's some altruistic hero.
>>25571534Kevan might make an uneasy short-term peace. Varys is aiming for long-term peace under a Targaryen.Although that does bring into question why he stopped Rhaegar from deposing Aerys.
>>25571847Well then Varys is evil for being delusional enough to think that half the continent isn't going to hate his boy-king Targaryren on sight after all the pain the house caused Westeros and with none of the overwhelming force to push back against that hate unlike Daenerys.
>>25571862His position is that if the realm is weak enough and ruled by retards, the people would welcome the Targs back because they will have seen what that non-Targs bring even more chaos.So essentially even if you hated the Targs, you'll think of them as the lesser evil.
>>25571868People are perfectly capable of hating multiple people, it's only been 20 years since the Targaryens were in power (which is a insanely short amount of time when you think about it). The northerners and Valemen aren't going to forget that the Stark and Arryn heirs were murdered by the last Targaryen king, and the Westerlands are going to hate any Targ for obvious reasons. Really I can only see the Riverlands maybe accepting a Targ since their beef with them was always through marriage and if a Targ kicks the Lannisters out and restores the Tullys to prominence I could see the gratitude being enough to kneel.
>>25571895Northerners are gonna hate the people that killed the Starks a year ago more than whatever happened 20 years ago.King's Landing got sacked by Lannisters so they'll hate them more, naturally. Riverlands are a complete mess and will probably accept anyone that can bring peace and fuck over the Freys. Dorne will naturally side with the Targs. Stormlands are in chaos and a significant amount will likely side with the Targs at least to get a chance at revenge against the Reach. The only ones who likely wouldn't side with the Targs are the Iron Islands and that's because Euron has his own plans and probably magic rituals ready to go.
>>25571908>Northerners are gonna hate the people that killed the Starks a year ago more than whatever happened 20 years ago.They'll hate both equally and desire to go back to independence which is gonna spit in the face of any Targ who walks in and demands immediate fealty. Their entire motto is "the North remembers," 20 years ago is barely fucking anything compared to the grudges they keep. Assuming the Starks come back to power (which is a given imo) they will be tied by family ties to the Vale who are likely going to side with the North now that Lysa isn't holding them back. The Westerlands aren't going to side with the Targs period, and as you said neither are the Iron Islands. That's half the continent right there putting up a fight against any Targaryen claiming the whole continent, and that's assuming your best case scenario of the Riverlands and Stormlands kneeling out of exhaustion. People theorize that Aegon's going to have an easy time of it but I don't think he will.
>>25571929>They'll hate both equallyYou're out of your mind. If the Targs can get a Stark like Rickon in Winterfell and promise to punish the retarded Bolton psychos why the fuck would the North, which is already shattered not side with them? The most hated families in the North are Freys and Boltons, not Targs. >The Westerlands aren't going to side with the Targs periodThat all depends on the Lannisters. If Tyrion gets Casterly Rock then he will definitely side with the Targs.
>>25571941>If the Targs can get a Stark like Rickon in WinterfellThat's not going to happen and I don't why you think it would, whether Stannis takes back Winterfell or Jon does it's going to mean that the northerners either swear to a Baratheon or a Stark (well Jon IS a Targ, but they don't know that). Either way they're going to be directly in the way of Aegon's claim. >If Tyrion gets Casterly Rock then he will definitely side with the Targs.Tyrion? The man most of the Westerlands hated and mocked even before he became a kinslayer? That Tyrion?
>>25571955Stannis will die. The show writers took that from Martin himself. Stannis will not survive the North. >Tyrion? The man most of the Westerlands hated and mocked even before he became a kinslayer? That Tyrion?Yes.
>>25571960Stannis is going to die at some point and will definitely burn Shireen, but it's not necessarily at Winterfell, Shireen isn't even with the army unlike the show. Regardless, that means Jon will take Winterfell and be crowned KitN as in the show which, believe it or not, is openly defying the Targaryen claim to all of Westeros. The only thing I could see happening is the North making an alliance of convenience with Daenerys assuming she denies Aegon's claim, but that now means Targaryen infighting.>Yes.Then I feel like you're presenting a fairy tale solution of the type that people would laugh and say Martin would never go for. Tyrion is almost certainly the most despised man in the Westerlands, no one there is going to just accept a Targaryen claiming he rightfully rules Casterly Rock. The Targaryen would have to force the issue, which means the same war I already discussed would occur.
>>25571966The Westerlands will get raped by the ironborn, they'll be willing to accept any Warden as long as it brings peace. Tyrion taking over Casterly Rock is way less ridiculous than Littlefinger taking over the Vale and the latter already happened in the story.
Why didn’t khal drogo have any wives or sons before dany
>>25571981he's into white women only
>>25571975Littlefinger is openly despised by half the Vale for his takeover through marriage and he almost certainly is getting killed for it. People will talk about how bad and convenient the show writing is then seriously say all of Westeros is just gonna say "sure why not" to the Targs coming back with absolutely no issues whatsoever. More than any other complaints people have about certain fan theories not fitting Martin's worldview, an uncontested Targaryen restoration most definitely fits it the least.
>>25571985>uncontestedNobody said it would be uncontested, but you forget that their overthrow, even with the backdrop of Aerys being insane wasn't uncontested either. Half the realm were Targ loyalists even though Aerys might've been the worst king in Targ history.A Targ coming back and promising peace and justice in a war-torn land and most people willing to accept it is not as ridiculous as you make it sound.
>>25571990It is as ridiculous as I make it sound, the nobles in ASOIAF don't operate on promises of peace and justice, they operate on pride and stubbornness, and if you take one theme away from ASOIAF it should be that. Every king in the last 20 years since Aerys has promised peace and justice and it never happened, a boy-king leading a foreign mercenary company isn't more credible for claiming the same thing. Why exactly would GRRM set up five books of the complicated reality of politics never going the way people expect just to have Varys' rather simplistic claims about Aegon bringing the continent together be proven correct? You also openly ignored the point about Jon becoming KitN.
>>25572001We already know Bran takes the throne so I know it won't happen. This convo started by arguing over whether or not Varys was delusional to accept that people would accept a Targ when the realm is literally either on fire or frozen solid. My belief is that he wasn't that delusional and his premise is not irrational.
>>25572007Well then I can tell you he is delusional for thinking Aegon the Conqueror with teats isn't going to see her supposed nephew teaming up with the slaver who sold her as a broodmare and the spymaster who tried to murder her and her child as a threat.
>>25572010Whether or not the Targs will fight each other is besides the point.
>>25572015Well then the nobles are kinda stupid for falling for Targ promises of peace and justice when they immediately start infighting and dragging the continent into the same wars they've experienced for the last 3 years, and my proposition is that unlike the fan theories they aren't that stupid.
>>25572020We were arguing over the rationality of Varys' decisions, not actually predicting the story.We know Daenerys will go insane, we know Aegon will likely die and we know Bran takes the throne.
>>25572025I don't think they're rational. Rational would be letting Rhaegar depose his father but instead Varys whispered in Aerys' ear and ruined that plan. They're self-serving, not rational, for reasons that have been debated heavily in many theories at this point. I don't think he's omniscient either, he's rolling the die and accepting the risks as is any other character, and is bluffing as much as other characters do as well. From the outside Tywin appeared to be an extremely rational character and yet we know the results of his actions.
>>25572034Ok but I've already mentioned that>Although that does bring into question why he stopped Rhaegar from deposing Aerys.
>>25572039I think the answer to that question then is that ultimately Varys isn't rationally looking out for the long term piece of the continent under a Targaryen or anyone other than his pet project Aegon, for reasons I'm sure we could endlessly speculate over.
>>25572045It's ridiculous to assume that he planned out a civil war that killed the entire royal family except Aegon just so he could sneak him out and groom him into a perfect leader puppet. It's more likely that either Varys made a mistake initially by trusting Aerys and realized it so that's why he invested so much energy into Aegon, OR he has more mystic goals, kinda like Euron.
>Excited to read about Aerion because he kills himself with nitroglycerin >He just comes off as a shallower Viserys or a Lannister in a Rhaegar skinsuit
>>25572054>It's ridiculous to assume that he planned out a civil war that killed the entire royal family except Aegon just so he could sneak him out and groom him into a perfect leader puppet.Haha yeah it would be ridiculous to assume that he would plan out (or at least heavily contribute to) an entire war to kill the Targs just to sneak one out, you're right. Makes you think...
Viserys should have lived, Dany should have died
>>25572056Joff as an older twink who resembles Rhaegar
>>25572077Dany's a better lay for Jon than Viserys is thoughever
>>25572090Which is my reasoning exactly. The forced ship is what killed the show and its stopping the books from being written
>>25571847Varys should have poisoned Aerys and let Rhaegar become King sometime after the Defiance if he cared about long term peace. I don't understand Varys at all.
>>25572093Not at all, Jon and Dany's relationship has been set up very well in terms of foreshadowing and mirrored journeys and their plotlines could go tons of different ways, there's lots of potential. Bran is stopping the books from being written, George's writer's block would end if he'd just kill him off and put aside his butthurt that people didn't like his King Bran plotline
>>25572101But to counter this, Viserys surviving with a gold pot permanently stuck to his head is really really funny >Bran is stopping the books from being written I loved Bran at first and I really loathe what happened to him. Maybe he and Arya should have gotten together by now, the plot suffers from the characters being seperated
>>25572101>Bran is stopping the books from being written,Wrong. Dany is the reason for it. Her entire arc has stalled. And now shes back in fucking Dothraki Sea while the Meereen/Slavers Bay stuff is unresolved.
>>25572106Her brother would not have mucked around in Mirren. Viserys would go for home
>>25572107Yea. At least he would, you know reconnect to the mainstory in Westeros. Dany is basically back to where she was in AGOT.
>>25572106Dany is hardly the only character whose arc has bloated, and it would be fairly easy to make up a plausible excuse to get her back to Westeros. George just can't help himself when it comes to useless plotlines that go nowhere, see: Dorne, Quentyn, half the Iron Islands viewpoints, and Sam. None of them are actively preventing the story from reaching a satisfying conclusion as Bran is, because there is no way to write a satisfying explanation for how a crippled boy becomes king, Professor X powers or not.
>>25572116I also think Viserys has more interesting potential because unlike Dany he is not a sex object
>>25572116>>25572127>Ser Jorah and Viserys forced to interact vs Ser Jorah and DaenerysSomehow I think Viserys/Jorah would have more interesting character friction than the other
there was zero point whatsoever in the dany marries the ghiscari guy plotline. what the hell was George doing? Even the show knew not to put that in
>>25572134The marriage exists to fulfill the House of the Undying prophecies, that's it.
>>25572122>Dany is hardly the only character whose arc has bloatedTrue but the Essos shit takes up almost half the book.
>>25572143>Make Viserys the Essos MC>He pushes dragons to move on Westeros >The ending actually makes sense
>>25572143Honestly every viewpoint in ADWD that wasn't Jon (and Davos I guess) was pretty bad honestly.
>>25572145The readers are literally enslaved in Slavers Bay. Bravo George.
>>25572146I thought Theon's was okay.
>>25572161Slaver's bay was created to create an arc for DaenerysHence it is boring and underdeveloped and comically evilViserys would just not bother. Viserys only wants to go home
I think its unavoidable now. We need a book in-between Winds and ADOS. Reuse the original name for ADOS (A Time for Wolves) or something.
>>25572222no way you're trying to invent new books when we can't even get one
>>25572224He will not be able to finish the story in two books. And he has split books before.
>Its for the realm>Im actually a good guy>Im doing it for the common people>Yeah lets the king go batshit for decades>doesnt matter its still for the realm>i dont think the king would burn to ashes the city
>>25572222We need him to kill off stupid and extraneous character and cut it to five POVs max, not create even more reasons for George to procrastinate.
>>25572263I think splitting Winds is more possible for him.
>>25571253No he’s still alive and will come back into the story (unlike Jon snow)
>>25572308Wrong
>>25567303>>25570715
>>25571040I am not that faggot
>>25572146>best Theon parts>most interesting Bran chapters in the entire series>special snowflakes Jon and Dany finally grappling with real politics (with inevitably disastrous results)>Melisandre being the best girl>northern anabasis with Asha >JonConADWD is unironically my favourite book after ASOS; so much great character and worldbuilding work there. The only chapters I found kind of meh were Barristan's (because Barry the Bystander is just boring in general), and Areo Hotah.
>>25572890I can see all of these except Bran (most interesting Bran chapter is the definition of damned by faint praise), Dany (spinning wheels isn't a harsh enough description for her chapters) and Melisandre (we did not need her viewpoint just to wink wink nudge nudge that the lowercase snow from Jon's POV is actually uppercase Snow).
>What if [thing I invented in my head] is actually hecking true?
>>25572222quads of truth
>>25572146Reek chapters are unironically the best in the entire series. Please name one chapter that is better than a Ghost in Winterfell.
>>25574172NTA (I disagree with the claim that only Jon and Davos chapters are good) but just in ADWD; Jon XI, Jon XII, the iconic Davos IV, Tyrion VI, Melisandre I, every Jon Con chapter, and of course Jon XIII.
>>25574172Victarion chapters >> Reek chapters
>>25574385>demonic monkeys and pederasty
>And so perished the Red Kraken of Pyke on the eve of his greatest battle…slain not by the sword of a foe, but by his own dagger, in the hand of one of his own wives.>Lady Johanna even went so far as to propose an attack upon the Iron Islands themselves; she would provide as many swords and spears as might be required, Lord Velaryon need only deliver them to the isles. “We should put every man of them to the sword,” her ladyship declared, “and sell their wives and children to the slavers of the east. Let the seagulls and the crabs claim those worthless rocks.”>Oakenfist would have none of it, but to please his hosts, he did agree that the Sea Lion, Leo Costayne, would remain at Lannisport with a third of the fleet until such time as the Lannisters, the Farmans, and the other lords of the west could rebuild sufficient warships of their own to defend against any return of the ironmen. Then he raised his sails once more and took the remainder of his fleet back out to sea, returning from whence he’d come.Ffs, this Velaryon bitch is such a little faggot. Sails all the way west for months to fight the ironturds, is granted a win by drafault by plot armor, then refuses to follow up.
>>25574479>drafaultDefault*
>>25574479Aegon should have nuked the ironborn with Balerion, hope Dany finishes the job.
>>25574479George clearly wanted the velaryons to be a new fan favorite house and it totally flopped, they fucking suck
>>25574505Lol dany is going to ally with the ironborn and marry Euron
>>25574530Victarion is going to steal Viserion and she's going to go on the warpath against them, there's not going to be any marrying going on. She's probably going to support Asha's claim against Euron, that seems like something the show directly got from George.
>>25574539Khal Drogo, Euron Greyjoy and Jon Snow in a vision about her being a bride. Yeah, I'm sure it means nothing.
>>25574385Victarion was my favourite character because it's fun knowing that he is being outwitted at every turn. Getting a crackling ever burning demon hand is alkso fucking sick, as is wearing heavy armour as a pirate.>>25574530Marry Victarion. There's no time for her to marry Euron, he's blowing the horn to bring down the Wall at Old Town, maybe crowned king like Aegon the Conquerer was, then moving north and conquering the world with eldtrich powers. Kings Landing would be partly destroyed and on fire from the Sept of Balor being blown up by Cersei, and then damaged when JonCon and the Golden Company win the battle of Steel and sack the city. Faegon married to Arianne and then Euron comes to kill everyone in the city on the back of bewitched Rhaegal.There is no political normalcy left for a political marraige of Dany and Euron.Maybe Euron via the dusky women detects that Victario is gonna bed Dany and he across the seas skin changes Victarion so he can use his body to fuck her, but that's it.
>>25561213Why is there still debate over who ordered Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion? It seems to clearly be Cersei. Only reason I say this is that I am on a reread now and during Stannis' attack on Kinglanding, the gold cloaks start to retreat when Joffrey does, however Jacelyn Bywater stops them and attempts to rally them. He is then shot by an arrow in the throat and his gold cloaks tear him from his horse and kill him.We know Cersei dislikes Bywater, since he is Tyrions man and kidnap Tommen, but who killed Bywater?Balon Swann. Someone who is regarded as exceptional with the bow>ser Balon Swann, bow slung from his silver-inlay>he approved of his sisters choice of Ser Balon Swann...good with a lance, better with a Morningside, superb with the bowIt seems to me Balon Swann killed Bywater on Cersei's orders. I doubt Joffrey would care about his brother or Tyrions politic games. I cant find anyone else online coming to this conclusion however, yet it seems obvious, no?
TYRION IS IN THE WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLS
>>25574756I always assumed the guy on the prow of a ship is going to be Hizdahr and Victarion is going to kill him to try to gain Dany's favor. If she's going to be married three times there has to be a compelling reason Hizdahr doesn't count.
>>25562192Cat has the best chapters on re-read since she's so involved with the real plot.Personally my fav povs in the book were Tyrion/Arya/Dany though. Areoh most hated pov ofc, boring cunt.
>>25562487Ned's mistake is having no imagination, he could only see things from his POV or change his view of things once he had evidence.
Scott Bakker is better writer than Martin.
>>25575166>Scott BakkerNo. George is now the greatest living author since Gene Wolf passed. Post some Scott Bakker. Post some of his prose
>>25561213I'm reading AGOT for the first time, and I'm pretty disappointed so far. The actors' performances did a lot of heavy lifting to make up for how bad the prose is. TV show, at least the first season, was a much better experience than the source material. Dany, Arya, and Sansa chapters are very boring. Jon is cool. Ned and Tyrion are very underwhelming compared to the show, but still nice. Cat is cool. I don't care about Bran.
>>25576157>jon and cat are cool They’re like the worst part wtf is your problem
>>25576249is this a recent quote
It's weird how gurm doesn't even remotely touch on what sort of hair the Others have. Are these dudes bald?
>>25576295I assume it’s pale white like the rest of their bodies and George avoids describing it to keep the reveal they are of Valyrian dna under wraps
>everyone sucks his dick super hard>read about at his actions>was a massive spergWhat causes this? Both in and out of universe her is this figure people endlessly praise but he was a massive retard.
>>25576606By every account he was gloomy but generally charming, intelligent and had the determination to make a good king. At the very least he was much better than his father which was enough for most people. He made a huge, dumb mistake but I think people generally don't have the self-awareness to realize that his son Jon made a huge mistake and got killed for it as well, the only difference is that he has a red priest to revive him.
>>25576616>that his son Jon
>>25576639Unless you think Ned was trying to bring the Targaryen ways to the Starks, GRRM has confirmed D&D got his mother right and thus by extension they got his father right. As far as I'm aware no other fan theory has gotten confirmed as much as R+L=J except Shireen getting burned.
>>25576616>he has a red priest to revive himWho’s gonna tell him?
>>25576645George says a lot of shit, until it’s confirmed in the books he’s Ned’s boy.
>>25576666You got it boss, let me correct it, the nephew of the woman he raped Jon made a huge mistake as well.
Scott Bakker mogs Hack R.R. Martin.
>>25576157>caring about the prosePeople who read The fat doesnt csre alot abiut his writting. Its good for what it is, the real meat are the details, the characters and the worldbuilding
>>25574843>Why is there still debate over who ordered Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion? Petyr. He likes to use his fellow Valemen as agents (Kettleblacks, Jon Arryn's squire, Lyn Corbray) and has good reasons to hate and fear Tyrion since the Imp lies to him and threatens him. I think he even implies it in one of later conversations with Shansha, but I don't remember for sure.>We know Cersei dislikes Bywater, since he is Tyrions man and kidnap Tommen, but who killed Bywater? Balon Swann.Not impossible, but I don't think it's all that likely either. White cloaks make poor assassins, since they are one of the most recognizable people in KL. Wasn't he also elsewhere at this point, Red Keep with the women perhaps? Imo, it was just disgruntled former watchman, since Ironhand coups Janos Slynt and removes corrupt gold cloaks with Tyrion. No one has much love for Bywater.
>>25576606He was also skilled harpist and singer and that leaves all the ladies dripping wet
Eurons eldtrich apocalypse isn't just going to bring the wall down from Oldtown, its the moment the second long night begins with other threats besides the Others and the Undead>It's bringing the dead around him back to life (everyone not eaten in the battle of blood) and giving him the power to control them>Controlling krakens via the magical horn from House Celtigar >Deep Ones and Squishers rising from the sea to slaughter and eat the living and add them to the dead Euron awakens by being near>Levithans on the west coast (where Manderleys were from originally and they have artwork of one in their throne room)>Ice dragons on the coastline of the shivering sea>Krakens will make every cost and sea side castle unlivable as they'll eat anybody they can reachMy mind is blown anons, I've never seen anybody actually post these ideas before (neil of ice and fire not an ad but his vidoes are really really good for anyone interested).I dunno if im convinced we'll see deep ones proper on page, but hordes of semi human monsters rising from the sea to slaughter people in costal settlements would be really cool, and provides a force that is humanoid but not wights to be a threat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1lan-AEMn0I liked this video
>>25578054Westeros winter strains my suspension of disbelief >>25574539No, Viserion is going to be the last dragon to leave Dany, because he is the reincarnation of her dead brother Viserys He has to take her back to Westeros on his back
>>25576606I think the memories also exaggerate how pretty he was. He looked a lot like his little brother Viserys and his dad Aerys who are canonically uggos
>>25578084Viserys and Aerys are ugly because they went wacko and didn't take care of their hygiene, nowhere are they described as ugly. Too many people recall Rhaegar being attractive including several POVs to discount it as untrue or even an exaggeration. Jon is also frequently described as a pretty boy and like his lean physique he likely got that from pops.
>>25578094>nowhere are they described as ugly*fundamentally ugly. In fact I think young Aerys was decently attractive.
>>25578094Dany thinks Rhaegar looks like a clone of Viserys and Viserys looked like a clone of AerysThey are very inbred upper class twits and probably would not look like the anime boys they are described as in real life though I think neither Aerys or Viserys would be unappealing to women if given a bath and a hair cut
>>25578098Aerys was described as very handsome in a feast for the crows but then he got a case of the crazies and refused to bathe
>>25578105Valyrians are consistently described as being pretty much fundamentally attractive. The ones that aren't are because of some outside factor, like illness or getting fat. Young Aerys was considered attractive, ergo Viserys would be attractive if he hadn't lived such a rough life and gone batshit crazy and ergo Rhaegar was attractive.
Has GRRM read Berserk?He seems to constantly pit androgynous yet misogynistic and ambitious blond pretty boys against buff men who are flawed and darker haired>Aerion and Dunk>Rhaegar and Bobby
>>25578130You can say a lot about Rhaegar but I don't think being misogynistic is one of those things. If anything, assuming of course that Barristan's reading of him marrying Elia for duty and that he truly loved Lyanna are true, he seemed far more interested in women with a bit of spice compared to the courtly type. Like father like son in that regard.
>>25578121>Valyrians are consistently described as being pretty much fundamentally attractive. The ones that aren't are because of some outside factor, like illness or getting fat. Young Aerys was considered attractive, ergo Viserys would be attractive if he hadn't lived such a rough life and gone batshit crazy and ergo Rhaegar was attractive.Viserys was only considered ugly because he was skinny
>>25578135I guess he is considered misogynistic because he kidnapped a fifteen year old girl and got her pregnant Plus he abandoned his wife
>>25578150Running off with a girl you love rather than sticking to your stale and loveless marriage is considered dishonorable in the pseudo-medieval world of ASOIAF but I don't think it's necessarily misogynistic, just incredibly stupid. A modern woman likely wouldn't consider it misogynistic considering how popular romance books about medieval princesses wanting to marry for love are. Boning a 15 year old girl is definitely creepy but every male in the series is misogynistic if that's the case, barring Ned (Cat was eighteenish when he married her), Robb (Jeyne Westerling was his age iirc) and Jon. Maybe the Stark men are just built different.
>>25578121Whenever Viserys is mentioned on /tv/ there is some joker saying he was a boy-prostitute and dying from syphilis at the time we see him in Game of Thrones This irritates me deeply even though considering the setting its a possibility and I want to compile a list of evidence about the Targshits being immune to syphilisCan someone link me to an electronic copy of the books?
>Daenerys and her brother Viserys, who is mentally ill and a poor fighter, were homeless in a town renowned for its child sex trafficking >Despite establishing a world where anyone can be raped GRRM insists his waifu evaded all pedoes and is still virgin on her wedding day>Dany and Viserys also seem to forget the experience and act like spoiled Targ brats no better than Joffrey some of the time>Robert saw himself as the hero >Still kept around the Mountain that Rides even knowing he raped a woman and murdered her children >Ned loves and trusts his wife, never tells her that Jon is actually Lyanna's bastard >Despite Catelyn also having sister issues and realizing that aborting children could make someone go insane, so she likely would have sympathized with Lyanna keeping the baby
>>25564609Adolf would have been a Targfag My Jewish ex was always talking about her distaste
>>25578202>Daenerys and her brother Viserys, who is mentally ill and a poor fighter, were homeless in a town renowned for its child sex traffickingThey weren't in Lys for long, they spent a lot of time in Braavos (the red door is the Sealords door to his personal zoo they were kept in as the last dragon riding Valyrians)>Despite Catelyn also having sister issues and realizing that aborting children could make someone go insane, so she likely would have sympathized with Lyanna keeping the babyShe literally doesn't learn this until after Ned is dead anon>>25578130it is amazing how many anime type tropes are in the series considering Grrm has never ever seen any of them, not even studio ghibli and was confused when a fan asked if Howlands moving castle was inspired by Howls moving castle.Darkstar is another very anime guy
>>25578202Catelyn would have been 50/50 on selling Jon out, we all know it. Ned was completely justified in not telling her, her house words literally her to put her family before duty and honor.
>>25562182You are the opposite of me.I'm around 600 pages rn and for me, the worst chapters are the Catelyn ones. I love Bran's chapters, the one with the weird dream is one of my favorites.
>>25578693>free cities are directly based on italian city states>put it in greece and turkey!
Scott Bakker is 100 times better author than Hack.R.R.Martin.
>>25578331>She literally doesn't learn this until after Ned is dead anonlady stoneheart know about jon parentage?
>>25578693>Italy is stormlandaren't valyrian supposed to be asoiaf equivalent of fallen Roman empire?
>>25578963>>25579209The map is clearly not based on cultural parallels, but is just Westeros rotated by 90 degrees.
>>25578693This reminds me, how Cornish are the Iron Islands? I know both had pirates and economy based around export of less precious metals (famous Cornish tin). Anything else?
>Dany is Aegon with teats>Her brothers are Viserys and RhaegarKek what if the original Aego a small boy with older sisters who did all the work
>>25575068Hizdahr lacks a fire motif.
