I don't understand why people say he's Christian. Tolstoy didn't believe in Jesus Christ, the Messiah sent by God to bring salvation to humanity. He believed in Jesus Christ, the moral teacher who taught ethics to the 1st century jews. He didn't believe in the miracles, in the resurrection, in Heaven and Hell. Can you really call someone Christian if that person strips Christ of all His divinity? To me he seems more agnostic than Christian.
Damn. What a guy. Anarchist and now "agnostic"
>>25562763Are those good or bad things according to you?
>>25562776He sounds great.
>>25562758He was a Christian and a Protestant
That is what any intelligent person would have believed in the 19th century. The government sucks, the church sucks, Jesus Christ's moral teachings were good, Atheism is gay. Still true to this day
>>25562946Rejecting Church dogma is one thing. Rejecting the divinity of Christ entirely is taking it too far.
>>25562977for you
>>25562758If Jesus wanted me to believe he's God, he shouldn't have been Jewish. I'm not going to make the Jewish world central to my religion.
>>25563050type shit
>>25562758Who fucking cares? Why continue to litigate the faith of a guy who died over 100 years ago? What's the point?
>writes cuck Anna Karenina that is worshipped by whoresNo shit
>>25563346It's an anti-whore book, idiot.
>>25562758I agree. So much the worse for Christianity.
>>25564071No, it isn't. It's implied you should feel bad for the whore
>>25564154>Anon felt something for Anna and it bothered himYou have problems. Straighten yourself out.Anons, would this guy benefit from reading Dostoyevsky?
I dont think he rejects Christ's divinity. He more doesnt think it matters. Its Christ's teachings is what matters.The only people with problems with this are probably Jewish that want people stuck in their strange idealism. Following the beatitudes is simple. Its not like Jewish law with their loopholes.
>>25563050based
>>25563050jews are already the centre of the entire world even from a secular perspective. whats wrong with the idea that they were chosen by God to fall so we can all run?
>>25564466Jesus’ teachings was the jewish law with its loopholes, and jesus’ interpretation of said jewish law.
>>25564293Nobody would benefit from reading cucktoyevsky
>>25564678How so? They were shunned out of every country they tried to colonize, it's only in modern times that they've gained so much power (and that was because they were bankers in the past which is one of the highest positions you can achieve in a capitalist society).
>>25564154Feeling basic human sympathy for someone suffering doesn’t mean you can’t realize they’re in a hell of their own making. If you can’t grasp that maybe don’t read Tolstoy.
>>25562946well that's why tolstoy was so insanely popular in his day, you can criticize his LARPing as a peasant all you want but it is true that the masses really did respect him and see him as a figure who defended them against oppression. even lenin gave him his due
>>25564686Jesus told people to follownthe spirit of the law not the actually law.The Good Semeratin is a perfect example of this. A fuckin priest passed someone that the law didnt make him help he didnt do shit. Then a Semeratin helped him. Thats like a Korean helping a Black that was mugged in south side LA. Your neighbor is not LITERAL its the SPIRIT of the law you fuckin JEWISH LAWYER. Go make more kosher alarm clock stoves.Tldr Jesus turned theory into practice.
>>25564687Straighten your life out, anon. You're a mess.
>>25564154this would be like saying the new testament is pro whore because of jesus telling the people that "he who is without sin may cast the first stone" at the prostitute. youre ludicrous
>>25564678Well that's cause of Christianity silly. It's all a big misunderstanding :(
>>25565143...and that'd be correctLaws without punishment means nothing. If whores can't be punished then indirectly their behavior is being condoned
>>25564686What even were his teachings that weren't directly related to the fulfillment of OT prophecies? Don't hurt kids, stand up for yourself, don't kill your family, believe in yourself, defoo your family if you have to? There's not much there and he spoke in parables as well, it's no wonder why there's 60 different denominations with 60 different interpretations and the early church leaders had to kill each other to prove theirs right.
>>25564678Unless you are talking from a geographical perspective (the Levant being the axis between 3 continents), this is a retarded take.The fact we see them as the center of the world and as "protagonists of history" is exactly due to our abrahamic cultural upbringing. Non-westernized cultures see them as just another random iron age people, since biblical times.
>>25565485You are a dumbfuck who understand neither basic ethics, theory of law, nor literature as a whole.
>>25565493The beatitudes are where he developes christian thought.Before then him and John were saw the disgrace that Judiasm became. They realized that the people needed a new ethical system.He directly calls out eye for an eye. The reason he does so is not out of profound thought but of utility a society where we think it just to that we now have 2 people blind. With Jesus's ethics people would be more powerful in their fullness. This was especially important under Roman occupation.Its best to understand Jesus under a historically materialist manner. His ethics were leaps and bounds beyond that of backwards Jewish law that came before him.
>>25565623Better being a dumbfuck than a cuck.
>>25562758babbysfirstliberalprotestantismmazeltovjuniorwelcometothewideworldofchristianity
>>25562758christcucks obsessed with finding other christcucks
>>25565485there are laws that do come with punishment. dont tell me that you are too stupid to understand the central point of the new covenant of the NT?
>>25566398What's the punishment of a whore under the new testament?
>>25562758There has only ever been one Christian, anon, and he died on the cross.
>>25562946Christianity is a fundamentally Jewish mindset which is incompatible with the moral achievements of the West even while it tries to claim credit for those very moral achievements. It is a bastardized interloper usurping the rightful legacy of true Western philosophy.
>>25562758Tolstoy was quite based for a heretic.
>>25568041>the moral achievements of the WestWhat are those again? Oh wait, there aren't any before Christianity came along.>Christianity is a fundamentally Jewish mindsetRight. That's why Jews have always wanted to destroy it; they constantly undermine it and ridicule it at every opportunity. Huh?
>>25569540>What are those again? Oh wait, there aren't any before Christianity came along.Bro hasn't read the Greeks. Embarrassing.
>>25564987I get the sense that this is probably right. of the late 19ths/early 20th century works I have read by generally "Intellectual" types, the feel goes towards more the agnostic/pantheist sense of things. Not fully discounting the spiritual, even very much appreciating it, and possibly even structured, but not assuming any particular version of it either. People like Lafcardeo Hearn, William James, and John Ruskin.OFC, this is purely talking about the time. I think its evident that this sort of agnosticism inevitably devolves into flat pragmatism and utilitarianism without some sort of doctrine to keep the eyes continuously looking towards the heavens searching for deeper truths.
>>25562758No one actually believes Jesus rose from the dead unless they're forcing themselves to.
>>25570154This half baked shit is worse than being an atheist. Imagine believing that God created the universe, but can't bring itself back to life
>>25566398>are too stupid to understand the central point of the new covenant of the NT? Anon merely rejects all ethics that are not conductive to permanent suffering of people he doesn't like particularly women who don't have sex with him and men who bathe.
>>25570160The idea God sent his "son" to walk around a bit and die to prove some sort of point and let us all sin forever is rarted. Obviously crucifixion is a horrible death but not some unique suffering that hasn't been replicated and exceeded billions of times over.
>>25563050He wasn’t Jewish read chamberlain
>>25570189His ‘son’ is an allusion to the Roman’s and Greeks claiming they were descended from various deities such as Caesar and Venus. Even if you were a gaytheist this line of criticism is absurdly retarded.
He formed his own sect in opposition to the official Russian Orthodox Church of his time. On his deathbed, he actually sent for one of the famous Elders of Optina in an attempt to be reconciled to the Church before he died. However, the one sent by the Church was blocked by Tolstoy's followers and family. You can read about this in the book "Elder Barsanuphius of Optina" published by Saint Herman of Alaska Press, if you are interested.
>>25564466The New Testament implies the Holy Spirit is what allows Jesus to perform miracles or is the mechanism by which he performs miracles and Jesus says he will never forgive those who deny the Holy Spirit, so I’d say it’s a big deal.>>25565609You should start paying more attention to the news.
>>25570480Interestingly he was reading The Brothers Karamazov at the time of death and sought refuge with his sister who was an Orthodox nun
>>25570076people should keep in mind that Tolstoy's most popular book during his lifetime was not War and Peace or Anna Karenina, it was actually resurrection which was sensationally popular because it's a Christian work and most people at the time were too. for the same reasons, it's his least popular novel today when Europe is no longer Christian (Tolstoy had much better relations with American Christians including his own English translators the Maudes who were Quakers)
>>25562758>didn't read leo tolstoy's - confessionshe struggled with maintaining faith in god in general, he metaphorically described lack of faith as being above an abyss and the only thing keeping him from falling being a single finger of god and god telling him that his faith in god is the only thing keeping him from the plunge and to maintain the faithhe's the same as any other people who believe in god and afterlife, they do it to alleviate their fear of the unknown and death
>>25562758Seethe all you want, in many respects Tolstoy took Christianity to its logical conclusions and Christians hated that he showed them the truth. He explicitly endorses anti-natalism in the afterword for The Kreutzer Sonata citing Christian celibacy and they attacked him for it, as if it isn't blatantly true that the Gospels absolutely teach that celibacy is the desired state for a person. Disagree with his anti-natalism all you want, it's still very Christian. But you Christians don't like to hear that of course, because your Christianity is fake capeshit Crusader Christianity that has nothing at all to do with the antinomian asceticism of the Gospels that Tolstoy correctly pointed out was the essence of Christianity
>>25570470>okay maybe part of it is made up but the rest is real okay?
>>25562946They would have such a phase but then turn around to embrace Eastern Orthodoxy.
>>25566587>no answerkekWhores can't be punished because you're also le sinner. Therefore being a whore is endorsed
>>25570594One metaphor used purposefully doesn’t negate or prove anything about the story except that the author was living in the Roman era and had a clear Greek/roman cultural influence
>>25570543>his anti-natalism He had 13 children.
>>25569540Honestly you're too far gone for now like my fat Mexican ex-friend who loves Nick Fuentes and is obsessed with le joos with their beliefs based on nothing else but mental illness and contrarianism. When you grow up you'll look back in shame and I want you to have a laugh.
>>25564689>How so? Look at a map of the world. Look at the centre.
>>25569540Jesus Christ was Jewish
>>25562758>Can you really call someone Christian if that person strips Christ of all His divinity?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism
>>25562758you're asking the question the church asks — do you affirm the doctrine? — and that's why "agnostic" looks like the clean answer. but agnosticism is a shrug, and tolstoy wasn't shrugging. he kept the part that did the work (the ethic as a demand you live) and dropped the part that's supposed to explain it (the metaphysics). he wasn't unsure the teaching was real. that's the opposite of agnosticism. he was so sure he gave up the fortune, the title, the life he was born into, and let the church cut him out for it. doubting what a thing is costs nothing. believing it and losing the estate over it costs the estate. "more agnostic than Christian" mistakes the residue for the absence of the residue. the guy who's still deciding is the agnostic — not the one already paying the price for the answer.
Ive only read how much land does a man need and the death of Ivan Ilyich, seems pretty Christian to me from what I’ve read.
>>25570992And yet.
>>25571103There is no center, the world is a sphere, anon.
>>25574692I said look at a map of the world. Not the center of a globe.
>>25562946It's not. Jesus was an apocalyptic nutjob. If you believe Jesus was a "good moral teacher" the only Jesus you know is the sanitized Jesus of pop culture.
>>25565493>>25565637aside from the basic moral teachings he was an enlightened figure like the buddha and taught it through parables and notions like the kingdom of heaven. 99% of people don't have access to the spiritual side due to our retarded backwards society so people sperg out about the moral teachings which are merely consequences of the spiritual side, dismiss the whole thing as dumb moralising and spend the rest of their lives suffering.Jesus called us sheep and that's what we are, retarded sheep
>>25576837Very untrue, read the sermon on the mount
>>25568041>of true Western philosophy.Such as?
>>25577352The Greeks and the Romans.
>>25577931>The Greeks and the Romans>moral achievementskek
>>25577931>moral achievementsSuch as...?
>>25577972Right, because no subsequent governmental system has ever adopted Greek or Roman principles. Do you ever feel embarrassed getting dunked on?
>>25578803What moral achievements moron?
>>25578201>>25579210Neoplatonism? Which is basically what Christianity copied?
>>25563145Someones gotta keep lit degrees moving
>>25565143That's an interpolation, look up "Pericope Adulterae". Jesus never said that, so no, it's not the same.
>>25579746>Neoplatonism? Which is basically what Christianity copied?You mean upgraded, so how is it then incompatible with these "moral achievements" when it was just a better and properly universal version of the same?This was the initial claim tardo.>Christianity is a fundamentally Jewish mindset which is incompatible with the moral achievements of the West even while it tries to claim credit for those very moral achievements. It is a bastardized interloper usurping the rightful legacy of true Western philosophy.
>>25580386Christianity never upgraded anything, only bastardized things (which is to say introduced corruption directly at odds with the spirit of the original).
>>25580651I mean that's just you saying "I prefer to drink Odin's cum", you don't really have an argument.
>>25580658There is more in Aristotle and Plato than to be found in Christ's cuckholdry or Paul's Jewishness. Every step of Christianity has been a hatchet job of something that came before it, always polluting it with an inferior mindset.
>>25580661Sure but you'll never mention what exactly.
>>25562881Exactly. The funny thing is him being excommunicated by schismatics, Lord have mercy on them.
>>25580714Read Nicomachean Ethics. Eudaimonia through virtue and reason is a vastly superior basis for a civilization than "love thy enemy" and "turn the other cheek" and "sell your earthly possessions so you can store up treasure in heaven". Christianity extols weakness and submissiveness. The Greeks knew the importance of strength.
>>25580807Dude is your only knowledge of Christianity from Adam Green videos lmfao.
>>25580915Who?
>>25562758then what was he?
>>25580807Lel so you explain how Christianity is actually radically different from previous ethics while claiming it was some sort of imitation. Also for a nuNazi to lecture on moral achievements in any way is hilarious
>christianity teaches you to love your enemies? what a crock! >weeell actually Hitler loved your country when he invaded it and killed its population so you can't hold it against him, dude. sometimes eggs need to break, you know? that's why I love Hitler!
>>25583437The Christian mindset is weak, life denying, and slave-like. The one saving grace is that it is almost entirely performative, in essence, there was only ever one Christian and he died on the cross. Those who claim the label hardly know the danger they are inviting into their mind, while, thankfully, instinctively rejecting ever putting it into practice (have any of you sold all your possessions and give the money to the poor as Jesus instructed? Nope, how about taking no thought for the morrow, neither spinning nor toiling? No? Right, because like any luxury belief, if ever the rubber has to hit the road, it must be dispensed with.) Thus, in practice, Western society operates along older, better moral principles, and in so far as moral degradation has set in, it's due to the corrupting influence of toxic belief systems like Christianity. To sum up, as Lovecraft mentions, the West has pretenses of Christianity while fundamentally rejecting the core of it, as a person might attempt to bite into rotten fruit but instinctively spit it out, no matter how much they claim to want to eat it.
>>25585253>no one actually practices it>but it's responsible for everything bad????
>>25585253>To sum up, as Lovecraft mentions, the West has pretenses of Christianity while fundamentally rejecting the core of it, as a person might attempt to bite into rotten fruit but instinctively spit it out, no matter how much they claim to want to eat it.how's that going for the west
>>25570543Celibacy is not same as anti-natalism. What drugs are you on? Tolstoy wasn't against people getting married, having sex and making babies. Peasants do it all the time and Tolstoy constantly praises peasants. He was against men and women looking only for sex and want to separate it from responsibilities and consequences.
>>25568041>This thing the Jews openly and loudly show and say that they hate is actually Jewish because asdgafhIt's all so tiresome. Thankfully this anti-christian business is becoming a liability for the Jews themselves, I imagine they'll stop propping it up soon for fear of being wiped out by shitskins.
>>25562758HOT NEWSHOT NEWSYOU READ IT HERE FIRSTTOLSTOY WAS A TOLSTOYAN
>>25586358Read the Kreutzer Sonata.
