were Achilles and Patroclus butt-buddies?
>>25581382Where does it say that in Ilaid?
>I shall speak first about Homer, whom we rank among the oldest and wisest of the poets. He mentions Patroklos and Achilles in many places, but he keeps their erotic love hidden and the proper name of their friendship, thinking that the exceptional extent of their affection made things clear to the educated members of his audience.Aeschines, Against Timarchos 142-3>Aeschylus talks nonsense in claiming that Achilles was in love with Patroclus (rather than the other way around), for Achilles was more beautiful than not only Patroclus but all the other heroes as well; and besides, he was unbearded, and thirdly, far younger than Patroclus, as Homer says. Well, anyhow, though the gods really hold in very high esteem that virtue which concerns love, they wonder, admire, band confer benefits even more when the beloved has affection for the lover than when the lover has it for the beloved.Plato, Symposium 179e-180b>And you did not respect the chaste consecration of the thighs, oh ungrateful that you were for those countless kisses!Aeschylus, Myrmidons, Fragment 135>I honored the intimacy of your thighs by bewailing youAeschylus, Myrmidons, Fragment 136>No, pleasure was the mediator even of their friendship. At any rate, when Achilles was lamenting the death of Patroclus, his unrestrained feelings made him burst out with the truth and say "The converse of our thighs my tears do mourn with duteous piety."Lucian, Amores 54>That Achilles loved Antilochus you must have discovered in Homer, seeing Antilochus to be the youngest man in the Greek host and considering he half-talent of gold that was given him after the contest. And it is he who brings word to Achilles that Patroclus has fallen, for Menelaus cleverly devised this as a consolation to accompany the announcement, since Achilles' eyes were thus diverted to his loved one; and Antilochus laments in grief for his friend and restrains his hands lest he take his own life, while Achilles no doubt rejoices at the touch of the youth's hand and at the tears he sheds.Philostratus, Imagines 2.7>Alexander laid a wreath on Achilles' tomb and Hephaestion on Patroclus', hinting that he was Alexander's eromenos, as Patroclus was of Achilles.Aelian, Varia Historia 12.7>Again by your delicious lips I supplicate you. . . . We’ll be to one another like Achilles and his friend.Theocritus, Idyll 29
>>25581384>Olympian Zeus has indeed accomplishedwhat I asked. But what pleasure’s there for me, when Patroclus, my *beloved companion*,has been destroyed, the man I honouredas my equal, above all my comrades. "- Book XVIII Line 79-82Sounds pretty fucking gay desu.
>>25581389But how could Achilles be gay if he had female sex slaves like Briseis?
>>25581402The Greeks didn’t care about straight or gay. They often grouped “women and boys” together in the same category
Didnt Patrockus have a beard?
>>25581406Patroclus is usually depicted as the erastes but retard Aeschylus made Achilles the erastes
>>25581413Pederasty wasn't common until the classical period. It wouldn't have been the norm in either Mycenaean Greece or the archaic period when Homer wrote.
>>25581382Achilles should have blonde or red hair (xanthós)
>>25581389/thread
>>25581424Erastes is the active. Eromenos is the passive.>>25581420I saw people saying it’s probably older because it’s Indo-European. And the pederasty seems to be widespread in archaic lyric poetry. Plus you have the Ganymede mention in the Iliad
Idgi, how the fuck was same-sex attraction, and more specifically pedophilic same-sex attraction, so fucking widespread in ancient Greece when the majority of men aren't homosexual or pedophiles. Like... wtf? Why were they all gay pedos?
>>25581435It’s not just Greece. Seems widespread especially when women are veiled
>>25581420A) This thread is about gays not pedosB) It was common and it was universally understood to be so at that time and at every time until 2025 when you retards started trying to rewrite texts you've never read
>>25581437But why tho??? Even if I lived in a society where women were secluded that wouldn't automatically make me want to fuck another dude. Wtf???
>>25581438>It was common and it was universally understood to be so at that timeLeviticus 20:13Romans 1:27
>>25581439It might just be Jewish programming that made us hate homosex. Also these Greek pedos tended to stop finding them attractive when they grew beards
>>25581389>>25581403>>25581437>>25581438>>25581444jewish historical revisionism thread.
>>25581444I think most people are Kinsey 1 with a substantial amount of people who are Kinsey 2 or 3, but have social, religious and other reasons not to take part in gay sex. There are obviously exclusive homosexuals, but the true really homosexual ones are masculine gay men who date other masculine gay men (beards, body hair, stuff like that), while many homosexuals are fine with feminine looking men. Likewise, how many women actually like to date hypermasculine men? The stereotype of an attractive man these days is a lean man who takes care of himself, not some balding roid junkie who's going to die from a heart attack at age 35.
>>25581447>Hitler lectured me on the role of homosexuality in history and politics. It had destroyed ancient Greece, he said. Once rife, it extended its contagious effects like an ineluctable law of nature to the best and most manly of characters, eliminating from the reproductive process those very men on whose offspring a nation depended.Rudolf Diels
>>25581450I think most heterosexual men could fuck cute effeminate males. This seems to happen in cultures where there’s no stigma against topping. It’s interesting that in the modern West we think of all homosexuality as being effeminate, and not just receptive homosexuality
>>25581456But homosexuality is inherently an effeminate thing. By nature only women are supossed to be attracted to men. If a man is attracted to another man, that in an inherently female sort of thing. Homosexuality is a subversion of sex.
>>25581464Interestingly homosexual orientation seems to be associated either with a deficit or a surplus of testosterone in the womb. This might be responsible for the two different kinds of homosexuals we see, the feminine and hypermasculine ones. As for nature, homosexual behaviour (not orientation) has advantages for troop cohesion among male monkeys. Might be the same reason why military cultures like the Samurai encouraged it
>>25581473Sex is for reproduction. Homosexuality is in no way natural. Its degenerate and done by inferior races.
>>25581477Nature doesn’t have teleology. It doesn’t care if you use a trait for more than one reason. Sexuality has gained multiple functions - like intimacy. Group cohesion among primates is another one. If you’re a National Socialist you should think twice about using natural law arguments borrowed from Christianity
>>25581464>>25581477Homosexuality is clearly natural, because all humans have the inborn capacity for homosexual sexual attraction, regardless of whether or not they do have gay sex. If it wasn't natural, it simply wouldn't occur and sexual arousal wouldn't happen.
>>25581482It's literally the Jews who promote homosexuality to subvert white nations lol. You're a fucking retard and have fallen for a Jewish psyop.>Nature has no teleologyWhat is the heart for?
>>25581488The Jews were the ones who first introduced anti-homosexual morals into the West in the first place, Marxist retard. Look at the pic I posted.
>>25581488Nature has teleology. It is why you cannot use your feet for anything other than walking or else you are violating nature’s rules. Kicking is unnatural. Foot massages are unnatural. Driving is unnatural.
>>25581499So explain to me how receiving a penis in your asshole is good or healthy at all? Yeah wow gay anal sex looks like it doesn't hurt at all for the bottom. Wow yeah I guess we shouldn't talk about how faggots who get their assholes blown out by a gay Chad later in life have their rectums basically prolapse and have to shit from a bag as a result. Yes, totally natural, Rabbi.
I assumed Petroclus was his young adult/late teen fuck toy that he loved.
>>25581477Monkeys do gay shit all the time retard. Doing gay shit is more natural than driving a car, taking medicine, getting surgery, or posting here.
>>25581389Wait so Achiles was the bottom?
>>25581546congratulations on being a monkey
not in the Iliad, later their relationship is associated often with the whole erastes-eromenos phenomenon, although some like Xenophon deny it was sexual but you'll never see him mentioned
>>25581546Is it healthy or good to have a penis up your asshole? Yes or no.
>>25581520Mental breakdown. I don’t like anal sex either
According to my Folio Society collectors edition of The Song of Achilles, yes.
>>25581477>>25581488>>25581520>>25581579Good example of high ‘need for closure’ psychological trait. Degenerates from posting arguments to just schizobabble to preserve his worldview
>>25581587Is it healthy or good to have a penis up your asshole? Yes or no?
>>25581604Nope! Those anal sex havers can stay away from me! But I still love men x)
>>25581609But there is no natural way you can have sex with a man. Your body is not designed for it. His body is not designed for it. Any sexual act you try and engage in with him is, ultimately, not physically beneficial for the either of you. It doesn't result in any sort of reproductive success. You know whose body is designed for your body by nature though? A woman's. Their bodies evolved specifically for your body and vice versa.
>>25581630Doesn’t really matter to me. I love men’s bodies and souls. I can only fall in love with men. I cannot fake love for a woman. It would be a disservice to her. Women deserve to be loved by men who have hot-blooded passion for them. As La Rochefoucauld says, “The head cannot long play the part of the heart.” In any case, what would the advantage to me be? Carnal pleasure? I only want someone to dedicate my heart and soul to.
>>25581464This isn't true. Homosexuality is an epigenetic phenomena. First born children are very unlikely to be homosexual. Each child after that becomes more likely to become homosexual. The mother is protecting her genes by providing a surrogate father should any of the previous offspring give birth and then die, becoming unable to care for their children. But Uncle Benjey is there, still young and healthy, with no kids of his own.It is rare in nature because offspring that take 15-18 years and require extensive education and support to be effective at reproducing are rare in nature. But it does exist in humans and in other animals with appreciably similar issues with raising children. Saying homosexuality is against nature just means you don't understand nature.
>>25581630It is beneficial to the mother's genes for her fourth or fifth kid to not have offspring. Homosexuality is strongly related to birth order.
>>25581734that's cool but I don't see the epigenetic need to stick your dick inside the colon of another male
>>25581734>>25581750>relying on Jewish scienceOk Rabbi. Fuck off back to bleddit.
>>25581604I am no doctor so I know nothing about the health of the act. I as many other Americans engage in a numerous unhealthy acts ranging from burgers, smoking, alcohol, sedentary life style, driving (car accidents number 2 cause of death here besides heart attacks). So I dont think if having butt sex is unhealthy it being any more unhealthy than these acts.Second good in what regard?
>>25581752Consider it from your mom's point of view instead of the incorrect one. Her biology is what causes the baby to become gay. It is the hand of another party with vested interests.
>>25581799fine, I heard that angle elsewhere, although the explanation I heard was that more prenatal testosterone is given to the first born as a form of conflict moderation, but that would make me think more towards increasingly asexual males, while homosexuality is often characterized by "sex" obsessed behavior
>>25581402It’s not gay if you don’t bust the crustt. The creators of western civilization and avid thigh job enthusiasts
>>25581579I’m a bottom and personally I think it feels good. My brain associates it with relaxation and it doesn’t hurt along as the the top is normal size. I really like pleasing men too - I kind of get off on that. Also I have no desire to top as fucking someone else just doesn’t appeal to me. This entire issue is why truths are so relative and why you should read books to see things from other peoples perspectives. Also straight men should respect gay men - I guarantee you most of us like you more than the women in your lives.
>>25581435Most men are bisexual.
the majority show disgust response, explain that one
>>25581891Jewish programming, like how most American women find uncircumcised penises disgusting
>>25581382>butt-buddies?FACE TO FACEHEART TO HEARTCOCK TO COCKWITHFULLFIDELITY
>>25581804Lesbians couples are notorious for having dead bedrooms. Heterosexual couples in the middle. Gay males are promiscuous. Drive and sex "obsession" is tied fairly hard into gender. It would be better for the mother if her childless offspring were also asexual, but her influence seems to be limited to incurring homosexuality in the fetus or not, which is sufficient. Going the extra step and also finding some epigenetic way of also dialing down the sexual drive is either unnecessary or difficult or both, given the current mechanism that is already biologically in place.
