>George R. R. Martin attempted to develop the fantasy genre with a more realistic setting, but the breadth of his world only serves to display his shallowness. His is a medieval Europe without a Jan van Eyck, Dante Alighieri, or Thomas Aquinas. Everything that serves to elevate mankind is absent from A Song of Ice and Fire. Music is seldom anything beyond the songs of individual bards, the Maesters study only history and natural science, and art exists only for ostentation. Ignoring the great cathedrals of the middle ages, Martin hardly ventures outside military architecture. Religion gets cursory treatment. His characters have no intellectual passions; they have hardly any interests; and they have no friends. There are no goals beyond appetitive pleasure, tranquility with friends and partners, or the appeasement of social vanity. Ultimately, the only achievement of the "American Tolkien" was the amount of feasts he managed to describe.
Tolkien cared about his books. GRRM, just like 99.9% of fantasy authors, only ever wrote that shit because there are hundreds of thousands of inverts who will buy anything that both wastes their time and is not a challenge.
>>25582270How after a period of sustained periodic warfare are peasants capable of mass revolt including dense supply? WHAT IS THE TAX POLICY?
>>25582279Homosexuals do not read GRRM. They read Wolfe.
>>25582270The setting isn't meant to be realist? They literally have multi-year winters and communicate through homing ravens. How the fuck does this filter people
>>25582270Westeros isn't meant to be a replica of medieval Europe. It's a polytheist society with a static level of technology (across thousands of years), extremely irregular seasons and a completely static class hierarchy. The chivalrous era of high Medievel Europe was really a very brief period of time, since the bourgeois class began to emerge in the 11th century and gunpowder was introduced in the 13th century. Prior to the 10th century much of Europe was still pagan and tribal.Architecture-wise, Westeros seems to be set around the 16th century but technologically and socially it's much more primitive. It's a fantasy world.
>>25582309TAX POLICY NOW. What is the strip rotation share system in use amongst peasants and the tithe and tax rates?
>>25582285contrarianism is not a substitute for a personality.
>>25582279Ok, but where are the great painters and writers and religious scholars in the world of Lord of the Rings? Tolkien also seems to be lacking that regard...
You can seethe, but Aragorn's tax policy is a completely valid criticism, considering Aragorn is a homeless bum and a racemixer (elf girlfriend) who gets installed as king at the end of the story and we're expected to believe all the citizens of Gondor are enthused about paying taxes to him due to a dubious millennia-removed hereditary claim to power
>>25582351Really? Tolkien was a philologist and Oxford professor. His academic career was dedicated to studying ancient + medieval languages/literature.He included plenty of poetry, songs, and created entire languages based off of Gothic, Finnish, Welsh and others. There is literature, history, scribes, art, tapestries, libraries, etc.Tolkien built a real world, Martin made a D&D campaign.
>>25582374You didn't answer his question
>>25582328Show me you're nonce hat.
As opposed to all the great churches that exist in Middle Earth . . ?Tolkien didn't bother to create a religion for his characters, presumably because he didn't want to espouse paganism.>Actually everyone worships EruThis is never stated in LotR or even implied. It's even left ambiguous whether anyone besides Gandalf and the elves know of Eru's existence
AMD DEN THE DWAGONS CAME AND LIKE BUWNED EVERYONE WHILE THE WHITE WALKUW ICE ZOMBIES CAME AND KILLED EVERYWUN AND DEY HAD SEX AND SAID CUWSE WUWDS AND SHID FARDED IT WAS SO BADASS
>>25582365numenoreans are part elvish so it's not racemixing
>>25582328Dweeb
>>25582351The elves? The dwarves and their underground shit? Is this a real question?
>>25582328Nice attempt, but no. People have huge libraries, and there's even a continent-spanning order of scholars, but all the books are about history and dragons. Nobody seems to have gained any notoriety as a writer: there are no poets or authors. The nobility lives in opulence, but they never talk about literature or art. Nobody even feels strongly about music. Martin's world is not culturally poor because it's materially poor, but because the author is intellectually poor.
>>25582413So you never read the books?
>>25582270Did people ever really, seriously, think that Martin was anything other than the Stephen King of fantasy? Yes, his work is entertaining... But that's it. He has nothing at all to say.
>>25582279/thread
>The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more slop.
I'm so fucking tired of GRRM criticisms that don't even read the fucking books. All of you scum need to be shot.>musicHe describes famous performers, folk songs, and elaborate displays. Some are well known enough to tour courts. One of the POV characters regularly reminisces on the music of the bells of Norvos. Mance Rayder's role as a musician is a key part of his character and why he is an interesting king.>art exists only for ostentationStupid comment that completely ignores heraldry, possibly the single most prominent symbolism in the entire ASOIAF series. People identify with, live and die according to art. The artistic finery of clothing, ships, and ornaments are regularly mentioned. Joffrey's destruction of a beautiful old book is a key character moment to show what a piece of shit he is.>the Maesters only study history and natural scienceThe Maesters being too anti-magical is a major plot point, this dipshit author wants to use it as some gotcha when GRRM is criticising them for it.>Martin hardly ventures outside military architectureThe maze of highgarden, the fire temple of Volantis, the House of the Undying, the beautiful stone of Whiteharbor, the water gardens of Dorne, the pyramids of Slavers Bay, the decorated buildings of Qarth, the haphazard architecture of Vaes Dothrak, the Titan of Braavos, the House of Black and White, and the countless other gardens, palaces, shrines, and inns throughout the series let alone the World of Ice and Fire.>religion gets cursory treatmentRight even though its a major factor for many characters and plotlines like Melisandre, the High Sparrow, Patchface, Euron, and Bloodraven, its shown to have an extensive presence literally everywhere, and various gods have literal living prophets in the story.All tolkienfags who agree with this shit, kill yourselves now you dishonest, tasteless, degenerates.
>>25583182Here's Areo Hotah's meditation on the bells of Norvos.>As he honed the axe, Hotah thought of Norvos, the high city on the hill and the low beside the river. He could still recall the sounds of the three bells, the way that Noom’s deep peals set his very bones to shuddering, the proud strong voice of Narrah, sweet Nyel’s silvery laughter. The taste of wintercake filled his mouth again, rich with ginger and pine nuts and bits of cherry, with nahsa to wash it down, fermented goat’s milk served in an iron cup and laced with honey. He saw his mother in her dress with the squirrel collar, the one she wore but once each year, when they went to see the bears dance down the Sinner’s Steps. And he smelled the stench of burning hair as the bearded priest touched the brand to the center of his chest. The pain had been so fierce that he thought his heart might stop, yet Areo Hotah had not flinched. The hair had never grown back over the axe.We have a description of musical sounds (the sound of bells) reminding Hotah of his home and his relationships - the things that people really identify with in the series. The aesthetic effect of the bells is cursorily touched upon. Nobody is strongly affected by music itself: people are "deaf" to it. There are no composers. >Stupid comment that completely ignores heraldry, possibly the single most prominent symbolism in the entire ASOIAF series. People identify with, live and die according to art.People identify with their families, who are represented by heraldic sigils. They're not living or dying because they prefer the Stark Wolf over the Lannister Lion. Where are the painters or sculptors?>Joffrey's destruction of a beautiful old book is a key character moment to show what a piece of shit he is.We know of the book's physical beauty that it is "gorgeously illuminated", and nothing more. The ensuing conversation is about how Joffrey cannot appreciate READING and LEARNING, which is the main thematic thrust of the scene.>The Maesters being too anti-magical is a major plot point, this dipshit author wants to use it as some gotcha when GRRM is criticising them for it.Not the point. Where are their metaphysics, ethics, poetics, physics, aesthetics, cosmogonies? And where are those of the religions? People in the series are intellectually inert.>architectureHe does get better about that as the books go on. Maybe he's trying to catch up intellectually, which is' why Book 6 is never coming out.
>>25582270>Religion gets cursory treatmentIronically, as it stands right now Red Rahloo is mogging every other god in the House Of Black And White, cause only the Red Priests/esses are actually performing miracles and defending humanity against the White Walkers. No doubt GRRM intended for ADOS to subvert this and show that the Reds' religion is also a mirage, but since he'll die before he finishes TWOW he'll have failedOther than that, yes I agreeASOIAF is pretty decent food porn, though I've read better>>25582365>homeless bumDidn't stop Commies from sucking Marx and Engels' cocklets>>25582351>where are the great painters and writers and religious scholars in the world of Lord of the Rings?Elves are virtually nothing *but* art>>25583182>One of the POV characters regularly reminisces on the music of the bells of NorvosI liked that bit, but that's like holding up Notre Dame and Big Ben as "music"Cmon dude>Maybe he's trying to catch up intellectuallyYou know damn well he's living the life of the god of tits and wine right now with his GOT millions, because he knows his time is up and the last 2 shitty books are not worth dying for
>>25582328>It's a polytheist society with a static level of technology (across thousands of years),>ok dude here are these 7 ruling houses that have ruled uninterrupted for 10,000 years (LOL).>That's right never defeated in war, never one sterile nigger who failed to have a son, never usurped by another noble or a revolt>Huh? One House lasting 10,000 years is 1 in a million and all 7 of my ruling Houses lasted 10,000 years and... and what? So that's like I dunno, 7 in a million chance? What's your point?>That's right everyone praises my deep knowledge of history. What? Roman emperors or medieval kings were lucky to last 10 years let alone have their line last 10,000 years? I still don't get your point.>Yeah so anyway after these 10,000 years of perfect stability now most of the Houses will get overthrown in a couple of years during my books.
>>25582374>Really? Tolkien was a philologist and Oxford professor. His academic career was dedicated to studying ancient + medieval languages/literature.>He included plenty of poetry, songs, and created entire languages based off of Gothic, Finnish, Welsh and others. There is literature, history, scribes, art, tapestries, libraries, etc.>Tolkien built a real world, Martin made a D&D campaign.
>>25583150Anon the first European novel published was in 1605. The 17th century obviously isn't the time period Martin is going for
>>25583310Different houses do overthrow one another frequently both in the books and in the backstory. What doesn't change is the static class hierarchy, which obviously isn't historically realistic. The real world high middle ages only lasted a few centuries so if you're going for historical realism then you can't have more than a couple centuries of backstory in a medieval world.Fortunately, he's not going for historical realism or else he wouldn't have designed the climate of the world as being fundamentally different from earth's
>>25583150Middle Ages societies did not have fiction novelists.You're just complaining he didn't make his already historically-inaccurate fantasy world even more historically inaccurate
>>25583623I blame Tolkien for creating this perception. The Shire is an 18th century society stuck in a 12th century world. So now all post-Tolkien fantasy has to be a weird amalgamation of medieval and early modern culture (see: Wheel of Time)
>>25583635To be fair at least Robert Jordan was self aware that his books aren't medieval.I guess "early modern without guns" is what most people want from fantasy
>>25583592>>25583623>>25583635>>25583649People became famous for their literary works before the modern novel. Boccaccio, Petrarch, Dante, Chaucer, etc., etc. Are you wilfully misunderstanding to save the fat man's honour?
>>25583679There are poets in asoiaf. Poetry is tied to prophecy though so it's a more fantastical interpretation.
The series literally begins because Rhaegar reads too much poetry and goes insane.To say poetry isn't part of Asoiaf just means you haven't read the story. I guess you could complain Martin doesn't write that much poetry himself but that's probably because he's self-aware he would suck at it
>>25582374You write like a reddit-trained AI.
>>25582270asoiaf is lacking in multi page poems & songs i can skip over
I know I know, oh oh oh!
>>25583310Yeah this is one of my gripes, excuse me, "quibbles" with George. He clearly went into Game of Thrones concerned with the events of the book, not so much the entire history of the world, and that's fine, I want a story not an autistic historic text. However, he blundered with the 8,000 year Stark reign. Or the fact that the Blackfyre rebellions never saw the destruction or ascent of at least one of the Great Houses. Regardless if this is 'another world, it doesn't seem feasible to me that these dynasties are so secure (and they only implode during the events of the main series). Now, when you look at it through the lens of him writing the first book in the series, yeah, that's where the meat's gonna be in the universe, the plot and current events, thus we're gonna see houses fall and crumble. The Starks fall and the Baratheons tear themselves apart because that's where our eyes are, that's what he went in to write about. So it's frustrating when he shrugs and goes, oh yeah, the players I set up to write for a book about, yeah they were in power for thousands of years. tl;dr there should've been several other House Gardeners during the reign of the Targaryens, let alone the previous thousand years before their arrival.
>>25582347kek
>>25582351Tolkien didn't claim to write an analogue of history, the way Gurm does.
>>25582365A working knowledge of feudalism will answer all of your (and Gurm's) questions on the matter. Read moar.
>>25584107You can skip over the entirety of ASoIaF, without regrets.
>>25582270Truth is that as much as he likes to smugly talk about Aragorn's tax policy or hobbit porn GRRM is complete shit at world building.
>>25582491Can't imagine you're coming back to this thread but I read the first page or two of that first book after asking online if there were actually any books that redeemed the genre, and this is what it sounded like to me almost exactly.
>>25583209>Nobody is strongly affected by music itself...there are no composershttps://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Category:Singershttps://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Category:Songshttps://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Category:Musical_instrumentsMusic plays an extensive role in this society and we regularly see people enjoy it and patronise it. Several musicians are also described as composing new works, such as Marillion.>people identify with their families, who are represented by heraldic sigilsYes represented so heavily that it literally influences how these people think of themselves and their families. The Lannister lion isn't just a meaningless token, they think of themselves as lions. So on for the rest of the houses. >Where are the painters or sculptorsWhy would they be named? Fame of such things is not much a part of medieval culture, the famous Italian renaissance painters alone dwarf all the famous medieval painters.>The ensuing conversation is about how Joffrey cannot appreciate READING and LEARNING, which is the main thematic thrust of the scene.It's both>Where are their metaphysics, ethics, poetics, physics, aesthetics, cosmogonies?https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Category:Books_and_scrollshttps://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Laws_and_justice_of_the_Seven_Kingdomshttps://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Religion>People in the series are intellectually inertThey show more sophisticated intellectual culture than the real middle ages did. You're not some tradlarping faggot who pretends Abelard or Aquinas are actually worth a shit are you?
>>25583310>>25584359He specifically says that the 10000 year thing is myth
>>25582351Bilbo Baggins very notably is the writer of the Hobbit in universe.
>>25582285Bonfire of the vanities was pretty fun tho
>>25584652>4000 year old civilization>69 songs and 94 books>most of them written shortly before or during the main series' timelinekekaroo
>>25585032>goalpost shifting>literally everything in the setting must be mentioned in the booksYou are a nigger
>>25582270>he's a fantasy writer wanting to make the world more realistic but it's not realistic to the point of real lifefaggot post betraying the very first sentence. complete nonsense
>>25582270it's a fucking checkout aisle book dude. calm the fuck down
>>25582328westeros is porno
