Why do so many conspiracy theories revolve around the idea that the global elite are trying to implement Plato’s Republic?I’ve heard everything, from the claim that the Catholic Church was based on Plato’s Republic, to the Islamic caliphate being based on Plato’s Republic, to communism being Plato’s Republic, to fascism being Plato’s Republic, to the Illuminati and Freemasons seeking to reshape the world as Plato’s Republic, and so on. Hell, the entire “Straussian cabal” conspiracy of the 2000s centred on the claim that the end goal of the neoconservatives was to implement Plato’s Republic with themselves as philosopher kings; according to liberals, the “neocon agenda” was rooted in Platonic philosophy. Similarly, today you see liberals claiming Peter Thiel has an agenda of implementing Plato’s Republic with himself and his Big Tech buddies as philosopher kings with the rest of humanity enslaved to them.What’s the explanation for all this? Why fear Plato?
Liberals suck Karl Popper’s dick, that’s why.
Conspiracy theory retards glom onto texts randomly, they only need to be common enough for them to find by accident and have at least some opacity to them. Black's Law dictionary. Plato's Republic. The Bible. Some book about demons that you can buy in a shop that Ajay sells Warhammer figurines and props for magic tricks. They aren't carefully choosing these books.
>>25629532The entire plot of The Republic is a secret cabal meeting, doofus.
>>25629532The authoritarian society in the Republic is basically Nazi comparisons/ Godwin’s law for people that read books.
I think one conspiracy retard read a summary of Plato's Republic on wikipedia like fifteen years ago and the idea has been bouncing around their circles since. Add AI slop youtube videos and no one knows anything about what they claim to know.
>>25629532>”global elite”When people say this, 99% of the time they mean Jews. Which makes no sense here. Why would Jews want to implement Plato’s Republic when they already have their own messianic kingdom to aspire to? Jews and Greeks are oops after all.
>>25629657>Why would Jews want to implement Plato’s Republic when they already have their own messianic kingdom to aspire to?The entire post-Exodus Old Testament was fabricated by jewish scholars in Alexandria in the third century BC using Plato's noble lie as a template.
>>25629532>“Straussian cabal”Can’t believe shitlibs are still clinging to a scapegoat from 2003.
>>25629577>texts only need to be common enough for them to find by accident and have at least some opacity to them. Black's Law dictionarywhat are the conspiracies around black's?>>25629662>The entire post-Exodus Old Testament was fabricated by jewish scholars in Alexandria in the third century BC using Plato's noble lie as a template.tell me more, what are some good sources on this?
>>25629532Does anyone else hace a really hard time reading platonic dialogue style philosophy instead of essay style because of how they just feel like strawman arguments? I was reading book 1 of the republic for my book club not long ago and watched a few videos from philosophy professors discussing it to try to better understand it. I remember one professor got so excited about this one part where it says the sophist talking to socrates gets warm, indicating he is blushing or sweating. This professor saying "look, now he's got him, even the sophist knows he's in trouble but he persists. This is so good." And I was just thinking why is that good? The sophist didn't blush. Plato wrote that the sophist blushed in his fantasy about socrates being a chad who has the perfect quip at all times for the soijack sophist.
>>25629677As far as Blacks goes it's turned into the grimiore of the sovereign citizen bullshit. Probably you know what that is but if you don't just type sovereign citizen into YouTube and watch people get themselves sent to jail for a month because Facebook convinced them cops are vulnerable to incantations.
>>25629577>Black's Law dictionaryUh, what?
>>25629664It tends to come up every American election year.
>>25629562What does this mean?
>>25629532Because (((Platonists))) have been ruining western society for thousands of years. Platonism and its spawn have dominated philosophy nearly since its inception. Christianity, Humanism, G*rman idealism, Natural law, most popular political ideologies (Liberalism, Socialism, Communism, Conservatism, Fascism, etc.), Jewish and Christian "mystic" bullshit, all directly descended from Plato. Even today we have not escaped the Platonist mind maze. Fuck Plato. I spit on Plato. I piss on Plato's grave.
>>25629677>>25629687>what are the conspiracies around black's?Just looked into it and yep it's a sovereign citizen bible. They use pre-1933 editions and argue those definitions are legally binding, and any subsequent changes to definitions are part of a conspiracy and therefore invalid. Here's a quote from a recent decision in nyc housing court that partly explains one of the main SC theories.>One of the main beliefs is that the government holds no sway over these individuals; as such, laws do not apply to them. That when the United States abandoned the gold standard for currency in 1933, the government became bankrupt but saved itself from default by using citizens as collateral with other nations through the issuance of birth certificates and Social Security numbers. By "forcing" parents to apply for Social Security cards and birth certificates for newborn children, this mistaken belief system argues, a shell corporation is created by the government commonly demarked by the spelling of the individual's name in all capitalized letters. It is their belief that by commodifying individuals as collateral each one{**85 Misc 3d at 870} has a value that may be redeemed with the treasury department. To that end, some sovereign citizens attempt to discharge/pay debts through the "transfer"[FN5] of that value held by the government.
>>25629722Okay so what’s wrong with Platonism?
>>25629532You literally made this EXACT thread on /pol/ last night.https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/545355008/#q545355008
>>25629722>thinking there’s any overlap whatsoever between Plato and Judaism
>>25629727I can tell you there is a conspiracy, one hundred percent. I don't know if it started in 1933, but 1948 they decided they had to "codify" all laws.That is, you have a system that must be working to some degree and for no reason whatsoever, it all had to be changed.If it aint broke, don't fix it.And it will come out in time because of AI. Just a bunch of shit to sort through first. There will be unmistakable finger prints.
>>25629685Well, there's a number of things to consider. Firstly, the dialogues are partly defensive of and rehabilitative of philosophy, in light of Socrates' execution. Secondly, they're protreptic and propaedeutic towards philosophy, meant to accessibly encourage non-philosophers who may be potential philosophers to enter into the activity. And thirdly, by portraying the arguments as embedded in dramas, it aims to remind readers that philosophizing starts according to concrete circumstances, and that the would-be philosopher may need to be mindful of such. Take your example of the Republic. Isn't it sometimes true that we know people or even catch ourselves arguing not just to establish the truth of something, but also to "win," to appear impressive and authoritative? Using the blush example, the youtube professor you watched may have missed something, because, in fact, Socrates attributes the blush not to embarassment, but to the summer heat and how much effort the sophist was putting into arguing in that heat. And the significance of that is tied to how that sophist initially introduced himself into the conversation, as indignant and angry at Socrates for his naivete. But that his face didn't turn red until much later, indicates, surprisingly, that his indignation was an act; he's a professional rhetorician, and acting is part of his M.O.. And this phenomenon, of how anger or rhetoric informs our arguments, comes up both later in the Republic when the soul and spiritedness come up as topics, and in other dialogues.
>>25629664https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Oh6DmjQahohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NNEkcfxxHU
>>25629786That's not what that report said. The neocons are retards, but you don't have to share Michael Moore-style disinfo to make that case.
>>25629733>X exists!!!! It's real!!!!>But you can't see it. You can't touch it. You can't hear it. It has no position in space, nor does it exist at a particular time. In fact there is no way to observe it because it exists in a separate, perfect world>How do I know that it exists? Well through pure rationality of course.>By the way, the reality that you see and touch is fake and gay and a mere shadow of the REAL reality. Don't believe your lying eyes.The entire concept of """"""forms"""""" is not only wrong and retarded, but contagious. """Abstract objects"""" haunt us to this day and cause all sorts of stupid as fuck consequences. >>25629754Not Judaism, Jewish mysticism. Kabbalah is nearly 1:1 lifted from the theory of forms.
>>25629771What's wrong with codifying the existing common law into statute? I think its importamt that the laws be as easy for citizens to just look up the laws in a book instead of needing to know all the various important court cases about each particular part of the law, and parse the legal principle that case stands for. I'm an attorney in NY, and we're one if (if not the only) state that never codified the common law rules of evidence. Some quirks aside we have pretty much the same rules as everyone else but instead of being able to just look up the rules for hearsay exceptions or character evidence for example, you have to find court of appeals or appellate division cases that discuss them. Its just less convenient.
>>25629793The first video is of a professor showing how the roots of neocon ideology are pure evil.
>>25629752>that fpbp
>>25629794What’s wrong with Kabbalah?
>>25629685You're reading with the wrong mindset. There's no good or bad people necessarily in these dialogues. I feel bad that you even have a professor who is able to point out the literary elements (and thus bring the dialogues to life as they should be, a philosophical play that explores the issues rather than a stale treatise with an overarching argument) yet you are still not taking the right lessons here. The point isn't that Socrates is an uber-chad who can dismantle any argument in front of him, or that Plato knows the secret to a just society. First of all, all the definitions of justice presented in Book I are reasonable definitions, and they are all presented by fairly reasonable characters who make at least somewhat compelling arguments, albeit with their own preoccupations and interests. The positions are personified by the people. The only issue is that the arguments are not perfect, and the people are not perfect. There is something flawed about them. Some are short-sighted. Others are partisan. Some are interested in material goods. Others in honor and pride. And even the virtuous archetypes of these arguments are still limited in their vision by their preoccupations. So, is Socrates invulnerable? Personally, I think he does a good job dismantling the arguments, but he doesn't get let off easy. If you skip over to the next chapter, Book II, you'll find that Adeimantus and Glaucon have Socrates in a bind over defending justice for its own sake. Not to spoil it for you, but Socrates will reluctantly spend the next four books trying to defend justice for its own sake, struggling to navigate many different roads and quandaries. He doesn't even get an opportunity to offer a tentative definition of justice until Book IV, "minding one's business". And eventually, he reaches an impasse and forced to detour into metaphysics for the answer. And even by the end of Book IX, there isn't much of a satisfying resolution to the original question, is justice worth it for its own sake, and the interlocutors then must turn to didactive myths about the afterlife in Book X. Now, after reading through this entire journey, tell me that Plato is trying to write a simple story about an uber philosopher who epically owns Athenian libtards or something, fixes justice with facts and logic and everybody lives happily ever after. That's not what fucking happens. The entire book is basically a cross-examination of Socrates to an extent that is far more intense and laborious than anything the other characters get put through, and even the other characters get their last laughs in, e.g. Thrasymachus when he returns in Book V to put an end to Socrates's city-in-speech. Just think for yourself you dumbass nigger. Take in all the information, acknowledge it, wrestle with it, and then move on with your life. Okay?
>>25629965Rare great Plato reader who gets it, nicely put.
>>25629947It’s pure schizophrenic bullshit. Imagine if half of all politicians and world leaders grew up taking lessons in astrology.
>>25629794Modern science has proved Plato to be correct. You cannot directly observe reality, you only see projections of reality. Even if there is a teleological dimension we are dealing with, that there is a "correct way" for an object to be viewed, and it aligns with some sort of perfected ideal human perception, human perception is not static both in terms of it changing over your lifetime(colors change, sound changes, smell changes, taste changes, touch changes), and having a dynamic character generally, for example smell can change from good to bad if it acquires a particular relation in your mind, or it is accompanied by something of the same or different sense.
>>25629532Meme answer: the book is a fucking conspiracy. That is what makes it so fucking great. There's 3, it's word of mouth, and the guy who made sure everyone knows he knows nothing starts knowing a fucking lot.Serious answer: I can't remember where I read this but I did read a theory once that it's likely less conspiratorial and more a condensing on the erosion of a democracy. At the time I dismissed it but the theory has grown on me. I also suspect the cave is likely the most convenient way to explain certain things. >both answers have been reinforced by my experiences >avoid melodrama from ecelebs and just read The Republic
>>25629786How dumb do you have to be to believe that the all-powerful secret Jewish cabal had to do that just to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. And lose all influence there 20 years later.
>>25630132Anyone who thinks “neocons” are even a threat today is fucking stupid. I mean, I know Y2K nostalgia is hot right now but sheesh.
>>25629771That's not how Restatements or the UCC works. They are not binding federally. They are aggregations of existing common law meant to guide judges and lawyers. It's written entirely by high-end lawyers with decades of experience in their respective practices in addition to having a highly academic bend. States choose to adapt parts of them because it's simply a good set of statutes which already. As >>25629795 said helps to clarify legal principles rather than sift through 400+ years of court cases.
>>25629532>What’s the explanation for all this? Why fear Plato?It advocates a slave society. OFC the elites want it.
>>25629786>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Oh6DmjQaho>the west is in a state of moral decline because of philosophical nihilism caused by liberalism, rationalism, science, individualism, and laissez-faire capitalism>man has been turned from faith to reason, from community to the individual, from duty to rights, from inequality to equality, from order to freedom, from self-sacrifice to self-interest>man has become unhinged from the natural moral order and religious faith>platonic philosophy = good; modernism = bad>some men are more fit to rule than others>philosophic statesmen should never be hampered by conventional morality or the rule of law>virtue is the purpose of the city, wise statesmen must use benevolent coercion to make their subjects virtuous>regime should be grounded on piety, political myth, and self-sacrificeNot a single flaw detected.
>>25629562fpbp
>>25629771I always forgot there are unironic sovcit retards that post here lol
>>25629786>>25630132>>25630181"Straussian Cabal" is just the Cultural Marxism conspiracy but for Democrats. It's an identical trajectory: eccentric German-Jewish intellectual(s) come(s) to America, their nefarious thought gets taken up by people who end up being placed into positions of power within American politics, education, and/or culture, thought becomes the dominant ideological force albeit clandestinely and ends up having a domino effect whereby it causes all sorts of evil to indirectly arise. Yet said intellectual(s) is/are so esoteric that nobody really knows how to make heads or tails of what they actually said and what their original "agenda" was.
>>25629620Absolutely not.
>>25629532It's the consequences of Hobbes giving a final ultimatum towards humanity that we're into this mess.
>>25630716DESU I'm surprised Americans believe intellectuals have that much power and influence in their deeply anti-intellectual society.
>>25630808You're saying that you believe it's surprising that stupid people believe stupid things.Take a second and read that again. Think it over a little bit. You'll get there.
>>25629662Source: my ass
>>25630716It's really not that complicated. Neoconservative Straussians into academic and think tank positions. Straussians then chain recruited other Straussians into similar positions. And then Straussians groomed up-and-coming students with neoconservative proclivities to replace them while shutting out paleoconservatives in general. The end result is that you have a reliable and persistent vehicle for neoconservative thinking in academia, one which crowded out other forms of conservative thought. >"Straussian Cabal" is just the Cultural Marxism conspiracy but for Democrats. It's an identical trajectory: eccentric German-Jewish intellectual(s) comeIt's really funny how we have so many of these patterns for all flavors of nation-destroying ideologies, isn't it? Must be a cohencidence.
>>25630881Assuming this is true, what's wrong with Straussians?
>>25630881>>25630897 (Me)Also, what's your source that these people "chain recruited" themselves and "groomed" others?
>>25630902NTA but it's a known fact that Allan Bloom and Harvey Mansfield ran a whole-ass agency of boy scouts whom they would ping-pong to each other and then strategically place in either academia or Washington (Mansfield openly admits this). Bill Kristol was personally groomed by Mansfield at Harvard, which is why he's always interviewing him on his podcast. Bloom groomed Paul Wolfowitz while Wolfie was at Cornell.
>>25630928So what? That's just being smart. That in itself doesn't imply some sort of evil cabal.Also, how do you differentiate "grooming" from simply being a dedicated teacher?
>>25629532Blueprint
>>25630902>>25630946>those questionskek, you are one shameless Strauss shill, I’ll give you that
>>25630881>>25630928Skill issue
>>25630928Wolfowitz isn’t a “Boy Scout”; he is a war criminal.
>>25630946Strauss created cults of his students and would send them to confront people, identical to groypers.Harry Jaffa admits this around the 4-minute mark:https://youtube.com/watch?v=sbhE21FSZBs
>>25632094>and would send them to confront people, identical to groypers.>Harry Jaffa admits this around the 4-minute mark:Literally not what Jaffa says. Go ahead, you have the time I'm sure, share with the class exactly what he says around 4:50. Does he say Strauss sent anyone at all?
>>25632010Not him but I always summarily, consistently and correctly dismiss the remarks of anyone who uses the term "war criminal" with apparent sincerity, or a straight face, and regardless of whatever agenda the user may have, or who they pretend to attack with a meaningless and self-defeating concept. You might as well accuse someone of heresy while you're at it.
>>25630928>”groomed”
>>25632094>Claremont Institute>literally funded by Peter Thiel>literally the brains behind JD Vance
>>25630881>>25630928>>25632094Oh noez, how dare a JEWISH PROFESSOR care about his students to the point of strongly mentoring them? Yeah, it’s not like that’s our culture or anything, to greatly revere our teachers while our teachers go out of their way to ensure Jewish students learn as much knowledge and wisdom as possible.
>>25632277>how dare a JEWISH PROFESSOR care about his students to the point of strongly mentoring them?That’s the exact problem.
>>25632297Why?
>>25632103>a group if young Straussians surrounded him during one of the breaks, and we were pumping himThat sound coordinated.
>>25632380And where in that statement does Jaffa say Strauss put them up to it? In fact, where does he say *anyone* put them up to that? *You* said:>Strauss...would send them to confront people>Harry Jaffa admits thisDoes that statement say that or not?
>>25632387When do cult members ever act without their leader’s approval first?
>>25629532Because Abrahamic religions are based on Plato, that's why his work survived and others' are fragmentary. They're works of social engineering and we're living in a psyop.
>>25629685If Plato had had any talent he would've written novels instead of dialogues. Imagine a philosophical work written like that today, it would be laughable in its dearth of psychological insight compared to countless novels.
>>25632417>my "evidence" wasn't actually evidence, so please accept ny headcanon, trust me bro
