Is this literature?
>>25641232No. manchildren will try to tell you Watchman, V, or any other Mooreslop is literature but the truth is, none of it would be able to stand on its own feet narratively if it wasn't for the artists Moore collaborated with, who were the real talent behind his comics. Moore is a hackjob.
>>25641247Well put
>>25641232Yes it is. The Alan Moore issues of Miracleman are also literature. I have not read V for Vendetta, so I can't comment on that.If the technology to inexpensively print color photos existed in the 1800's, then a lot of classic literature from that period would have been published as comic books.
>>25641232No, go back to /co/, fag OP
>>25641249Only count of Monte Christo
Is "Reads," the ninth volume of the Cerebus graphic novel, in which Dave Sim cancels the plot he was in the middle of in order to write a lengthy essay about how all women are part of a conspiracy to destroy civilization, literature?
>>25641232Depends on what you mean by 'literature'
>>25641232As literary as your average slop can be.
>>25641558Under what definition could comic books be considered literarture?
The eternal obsession that boards like /co/,/v/, and especially /a/ have for trying to get this board to validate their subject matter never stops being hilarious.
From Hell and certain issues of Saga of the Swamp Thing are the only things Moore did that are /lit/. I enjoyed Watchmen and V, but they're still just conventional genre fiction with themes and subject matter that were simply new for comics, but old and played out for literary fiction. He's still based for elevating his own medium in its own way, though.
>>25641857Alan Moore's comics have very long prose sections. If classical literature like Dumas, Dickens, and Sir Walter Scott can have illustrations, how much text does a comic need to have before it's considered a heavily illustrated novel?
>>25641232No. And I love comics. But literature is, by definition, integrating written language. Comics integrate written language and visual language, thus, a completely different thing.
>>25641912>200 words is longIncorrect
>>25641912Jesus that's embarrassing.
>>25641912>If classical literature like Dumas, Dickens, and Sir Walter Scott can have illustrationsThe difference is, those illustrations aren't essential. Dickens is often reprinted without illustration. You could not remove all illustrations from Watchmen and still call it Watchmen.
>>25641912you're an addict
>tfw the depths of your heart are murky and disturbed
>>25641425Absolutely.
>>25641247>if it wasn't what it is...>it wouldn't be what it isDamn, I never thought about it like that.
From Hell is one of the best books I've ever read.
>>25641981It's not a book.
>>25641912It doesn't need to be a novel to be literature. Poems can be literature. Whether or not it's considered "literš¢ture" is about assigning value, so this thread is just pointlessly asking a bunch of pretentious /lit/ fags whether or not capeshit is good, which is met with a predictable dismissal. The better question is, why does OP even care to ask?Is he, perhaps...a faggot?
>>25641982You're on /lit/ and you don't even know what a book is. The absolute state of literacy.
>>25642006It's not a book.
>>25641907>but old and played out for literary fictionAny example?
>>25642009A "book of hours" was mostly ornamental, with some fairly succinct prayer excerpts making up the little text they did contain, yet few would ever dispute their qualification as books. So Watchmen is unambiguously a "book" by all but your highly specific and outlying personal definition.
Please, go to /co/. My lord. Must we go through this again?
>>25642065NTA but it's not a book.
>>25641892/thread
>>25642022V just feels like Dumas + Orwell. Watchmen is littered with epigraphs from writers that can point you in the right direction.
>>25641979You're being dense. Writing being bad but elevated by good artwork doesn't make something well written. Maybe if you wasn't a midwit who thinks comic books are literature you could understand this simple concept. >>25642065Yes, it's a book. A COMICbook.
>>25642077manchildren know deep down their hobbies are for children and retards. they know their "content" is designed to be harmful and addictive. so the cope and the "i can haz big boy points nao?" posts will never end. just lean into them and enjoy them best you can.
>>25642355By your logic the film should really have been seen as an equal to the book in it's rote repetition of much of the basic plot structure and imagery, and yet, even with the addition of everything a film can bring to the table that a mere volume of speech bubbles and artwork cannot, it's notorious for lacking so much of the meaning that the book had. As if the book had some ineffable quality to the way it conveyed the same basic narrative that made it feel like more than the sum of it's parts. What could that be? Could it be you just...didn't get it?>Writing being bad but elevated by good artwork doesn't make something well written.Watchmen's writing and artwork were developed in tandem by Moore and Gibbons in order to convey a cooperative vision for the work. Moore wrote detailed scripts for the books panels, working so closely with Gibbons that the artwork and the writing became more or less inseparable. Developing it this way lent to the work a level of creative nuance that neither could have brought to the fore nearly as effectively if they were working on their own. Now, I'm under no illusions about how much of the comics industry is laden with haphazard or dysfunctional storytelling, most of it's history is a factory production line, but that's exactly why Watchmen is the last book I'd accuse of being "carried" by it's artwork. It didn't garner a reputation for elevating the industry by purely being nice to look at. Maybe it's not on the level of "best of all time" fiction to you, but it's certainly not bad, and doubly so when compared to it's peers, which have rarely taken advantage of the strengths of the medium to anywhere near the same degree. A medium that is of course, by definition, a form of literature.>Yes, it's a book. A COMICbook.It's "comic book". Two words. Even so, that's just a more specific tern to describe something that we both hopefully know belongs to the broader categorization of "book". You don't sperg out if someone calls a Dr. Suess work a "book", only to rudely remind them to exclusively call it a "CHILDRENS" book...do you? Mental midgets only feel the need to use these terms of categorization as pejoratives to make themselves feel better about blithely dismissing entire art forms out of hand. It's willfully obtuse, so it's no wonder you feel the need to project your own density elsewhere. Couldn't be you, amiright?
didnt read.
>>25642721>/lit/>didn't readTale as old as time.
>>25641232The comic form is literature yes, sequential art has been around thousands of years and comic strips since the middle ages. This is not up for debate, the actual debate should be:"Does this comic I like have literary merit?" Watchmen absolutely does. Black Hole? Sure. This weeks Tom Taylor Batman or Death in the Family? Probably not.
>>25641425That essay is what elevates it to the level of literature.
>>25643385What about Stan Lee?
>>25643385no it isn't
>>25641232Yes.>>25641247Shut up, retard.
>>25641232I haven't been able to take watchmen seriously ever since my capeshit fatigue set in, precisely because it takes itself so seriously. Even Moore himself admitted and regretted that its grimdark tone and attempted intellectualizing of the superhero had a permanent detrimental effect on the genre.
>>25644040Sounds like you aren't actually tired of capeshit at all.
>>25641232>every character is a reinterpretation of a previously existing character to fit the author's view of the ideas they embody>author gets pissy when people then reinterprete and repurpose his characters>creates a character based on the Rorschach test whose morality is ambiguous and more than the sum of its parts>author gets mad when people's views of him are different than his
Alan Moore's actually the greatest writer in the history of the English language, and his novels Voice of the Fire and Jerusalem are masterpieces.
>>25644989He's just a very spiteful, jaded man, mostly because of his interactions with FOX and Warner Brothers.
>>25643468Fuck man I gotta re-read V For Vendetta again sometime soon.
>>25641247>none of it would be able to stand on its own feet narratively ifThe question does not concern any hypotheticals.
>are comic books literature?>are songs literature?>is it literature when someone reads a book to you?READ A BOOK
>>25641892Idk man I see an Alan Moore thread pop up every other month but it's been years since I've last seen a HunterXHunter thread and going to /a/ you'll see those types being laughed at there tooSame for /v/, I'll see more often/tv/ threads honestly
>>25645048By its very definition, anything printed on paper is "literature." Books are literature, political pamphlets are literature, religious tracts are literature, self-published/printed chapbooks of poetry are literature, coffee table books are literature...and yes, graphic novels are literature as well.
>>25645077wrong
>>25645121No. You're just a stupid, fucking prole who can't think beyond two dimensions.
>>25641857Under academic definition. Universities study comics and their structure as a subcategory of literature.
>>25641232Obviously. It's primary narrative delivery system is text. The images are nice too, but they're not the vehicle by which the story is being delivered. I.e, if you had only the images, you could follow the plot but not the dialogue. If you had only the text you could follow both plot and dialogue.
>>25645239No, you're wrong mate. Both work in tandem.
>>25645239Lol it doesnt work without the illustrations. From hell wouldnt work without them either.
It makes sense why discussion on /lit/ is so shallow. It's literally full of /co/fags.
>>25645077>grocery receipts are literatureyou will never be smart and you will never belong here
>>25645237Too bad we already agreed years ago that universities are collectivist shitholes and propaganda machines>>25645239You're wrong too
>>25645239It's almost as if you're describing a comic book.
>>25641247>if it were something different from what it is it would suckFpwp.
>>25641979>>25646065Schizo.
>>25646070>projecting this hard
>>25641232Comic books aren't literature.
Comics gotta be the only medium where the "entry level stuff", is the absolute peak of its medium. >Like yeah, i've read Watchmen, Walking dead, Preacher and Transmetropolitan, what's next? >BrĒæther you can choose between thousands of garbage superhero comics, help yourself
>>25647882>what's next?The rest of Alan Moore's Oeuvre. Lost Girls, From Hell, and V for Vendetta are all top notch, and even his lesser works like Tom Strong and Promethea are well worth the read.
>>25647923No, I don't think I will.
>>25647936ok well then just kys I guess
>>25645121>>25645898>>25645121>>25647756It's as if you think the entirety of the visual medium is only able to drag the written word down to some inferior level, not fit for the now sacred title of " l i t e r š¢ t u r e ". Never mind that many of the great works of literature were sourced from oral traditions, that inventing an alphabet to write with is just one process among many by which the inner landscape is given static form. Have you ever considered that concepts might actually lose something when locked in place within the medium of a dead and frozen text, rather than being expressed through the living word? Or is oral tradition simply too primitive a form for you to posture with? Plato and Socrates certainly didn't think so, being quite skeptical of the visual as well as the textual. They certainly didn't see this massive value difference between the two.
>>25645895Do you think the word "literature" was formulated specifically to divide you from the common rabble? Do you have any idea how pathetic you have to be to care about belonging here?Pseuds always seem to mistake antiquated or uncommon language with poignant language, stuck social signaling in the contrarian mode, peacocking while providing no deeper insight or value.Assuming you can even enjoy a base visual medium such as film, your favored choices must never dubbed as mere "movies".They're..." c i n e m š¢ "I can almost hear the hunched vertebral column of the lummox snap in twain...his cerebrum finally finding its way into the upper colon. He finally belongs here.Goodnight, sweet prince...
I've always been on the fence about reading this or other works by Moore. From what I have gathered in this thread, the Watchmen isnt a literary masterpiece but still decent. Sounds like I should read From Hell instead
It had some banger lines, the iconic ones from the movie were powerful.
>>25641232No Moore is meh but some of the stuff Daniel Clowes did counts imo.
>>25649041Like the Death Ray is a good example. Thatās an extremely rare graphic novel that actually deserves the term āgraphic novel.ā He also actually does his own art unlike the manchild hack Moore. He also actually uses the comic format in interesting ways
>>25649041>>25649043
>>25641247At the beginning of the semester at my university library, they invited people to name their favourite book online, which they would then post the answers on a big board. The results fell into 4 categories:>the Bible or the Quran>manga (which the kids probably watched as anime)>fantasy and romantasy>entry level literature such as Dosto
>>25649041>Moore is mehHe's easily the best writer in the history of comics and it's not even remotely close. Frank Miller and Garth Ennis can fight for distant second.
>>25649048Why didn't you post something? Surely you have some obscure piece you can whip out at a moments notice? Something that you thought would get booktok hoes to suck you off, but actually comes off really insincere or off-putting? Like you want really badly to seem unique, but the only way you can do that in this day and age is by alienating everyone around you?Maybe it's written by a guy who killed himself, did an act of mass violence, or was just incredibly anti-social and/or insane? C'mon, bro.Do you even /lit/?
>>25649082Because I read too much to choose 1 book. The idea itself is ridiculous to me. I'd have to narrow it down by year, for starters.And the whole thing was anonymous anyway you illiterate fuckin freak. Wish I could spit in your mother's face.
>>25649082>*only reads White male authors*based
>>25648962>I've always been on the fence about reading thisIt's still a fucking *graphic* novel, if you don't want to take your time with it you could read it all fairly quickly.>Watchmen isnt a literary masterpiece but still decent.Moore is just unpopular here, partly due to his politics, partly due to "chan politics", as in /lit/ hates /co/ for being the infantilized dark mirror of their own self so even decent stuff like Watchmen gets caught in the autistic screeching "I Am An AduLT! I Am An AduLT!" crossfire.>>25649064A lot of these types are just eternally asshurt about how he said fans of Rorschach are foul odorous retards, something I'm sure Moore has had plenty of first-hand experience with. Not that it matters why he said it, as they're just some fried-dopamine-receptor xitter reactionaries that bet on kalshi in one hand while vigorously jelqing with the other. They'd avoid singing the praises of anything until it's been accepted into their niche group wheelhouse because they have no real sense of self. Even then they eventually tire of conforming only to become overly hateful and contrarian instead, like the male equivalent of a BPD whore, self-evidently not enjoying literature, outside of it's usefulness as a space filled with similarly mentally poisoned individuals for them to spar with and measure their diminutive brain and/or penis sizes against. That also describes many of the "great men" of literary history, btw. Bunch of fucking spergs. Look into Freudian autoerotism.
>>25649064I prefer John Wagner, Alan Grant, and Pat Mills, desu. Grant Morrison too.
My ex bf gave Alan Moore a quickie at a train station in 1998.
>>25641232No.
>>25649090>the idea is ridiculous to him>still felt the need to come up with multiple obvious excuses for not participating instead of just leaving it at that>read too much to choose 1 book>he actually wrote that>>25649091I posted it, but that applies to me as well. I've no penchant for weebshit, nor what is invariably either "Fried Chicken Noodle Soup for the Soul Food", "The Passion of the Christ but instead Christ is all the slaves that got mc'holocausted to death and it's all your fault", or "the diaries of sad women that never learned to masturbate"...actually scratch that last one, Emily Dickinson could get a dickin' son.These picks are crazy entry-level for this level of pretense, though, especially in the music department. This hypothetical guy supposedly reads only white men, yet all he listens to is, uh..."jungle" beats? Could've at least picked Aesop Rock, he's got a decent vocabulary. Not sure Travis Scott can even speak a coherent sentence. This was definitely made by a spurned art hoe of some variety. In fact, I regret posting it at all.
>>25648706>a lot of words defending picture bookscope
>>25648706you play with dolls lol
>>25648723
>>25641232Yes. It's good. You can skip the prose sections at the end of each chapter however. It's a low form of literature but still literature.
>>25649718>>25649774I'd say that's a job well done, they've been reduced to fragmented monosyllabic playground insults.>>25649776And replies that completely rely on an image to make their point. How ironic.Where's the verbosity they deemed so necessary for anything of literary importance? These posts may as well be grocery receipts. And here I was hoping someone would play devil's advocate with an intricately constructed, well-delivered counterpoint. Who knew that calling something /co/ "literature" could mind break /lit/ so easily?>>25642077This is a great example.Pay attention to that language: "must we go through this". It's trying to sound like it's just a tired dismissal of a settled topic, but it's afraid.There's something of...pain in it.And, of course, if it were really settled within the mind of this Anon, surely there'd be no reason to post in the first place?It's almost as if the discussion's very existence causes a psychological disturbance that is so profound, it must be expressed.Some sort of...cognitive dissonance.Fascinating.
You're an addict
>>25641232>The greatest literary achievement of comic books is babby's first genre fiction trope fest
>>25650623To what?
>"If you're reading it, it's for (You)."
Is this fine dining?
Alan Moore is a tremendous hypocrite
>>25650722truke
>>25650606Picture books are not literature.
Is this art?
>>25641232Technically yes but comic books specifically are a /co/ topic. No, I don't care if /co/'s userbase is a bunch of rabid cockeaters. That is where you belong.
>>25649064you want to sound smart so bad.
>>25650637>Too dense to get the themes>That must mean it's shallowIt really is a Rorschach test.
>>25652294>>25652208
>>25641232>Is this thing that's only praised by retarded gaming manchildren who think real literature is boring is literature?
Same energy as the VNfags who swear FS/N is the greatest thing ever written.
>>25652352>FS/Ndo i even want to know what that is
>>25652342Welcome to /lit/, faggot.
>>25652348You've never read From Hell, I take it.
>>25652363I have. It's pretty good for a popcorn flick.
>>25652348Imagine thinking the people with no real friends would be anyone but /lit/fags, too pretentious to even enjoy Watchmen. You couldn't project harder if you were throwing a picture on a fucking wall.
>defends the world's most hated gamergee i wonder why, kek
>>25641247fippy bippy, no surprise there.
>>25652366The film is garbage.
>>25652393I've never seen the film, I was referring to the graphic-so-called-"novel" which largely reminded me of the type of blockbuster entertainment productions that, for example, 20th Century Fox would create.
>>25642478Is the problem with the medium or the subject matter? If Iām reading a Superman novel or listening to one of the old audio dramas is that the equivalent of replacing heroin with methadone?
>he wants someone to engage with him so badlykek
Is this a big kid, now?
>>25651551Is an animatic an animated feature?Is a short film?You're amazed at you're own ability to dumb things down to their most remedial sounding level, just so you can scoff at them.I'm honestly surprised that you can't enjoy comics, considering how much you marvel at your own stupidity.>>25652387The most notable difference I can see between your ilk and Elon is the size of your bank accounts. You're equally entitled to adoration for doing just as little mental legwork. Doubly as pretentious, while having much less to show for it.
>>25650713Fine dining has a much narrower definition than literature, obviously.>>25651857That's all marketing and science, baby. Not because they give you the ick, but because of the intent.That being said, your attitude toward psychological engineering is a good sign you don't think very deeply about things that don't signal the kind of pretentious hot air you call "value".A surprising amount of work goes into getting the goycattle to line up for their slop, y'know?It's ironic, really. People like you are not nearly as likely to outsmart marketing as you think. Like a kind of Dunning-Kruger that's especially common in the uh, "social climbing-oriented" population. Like women, or really pathetic men. Men like...Well, men like Elon Musk.
>still trying to get a (You)kek
>>25652478
you're an addict and you play with dolls lol
Imagine being this high and mighty about literature when the medium has been overtaken by femoid gooners.
>>25641247NOOO YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO SAY THAT BECAUSE MOORE ALREADY ANTICIPATED THAT AND PREEMPTIVELY SAID COMICS WERE FOR MANCHILDREN WHICH MEANS HIS STUFF IS HIGH LITERATURE
>ACTION FIGURES>YOU'RE A BIG KID NOWWWWW
>>25652601Imagine being this high
>>25652605Is this literature?
What exactly does the manchild seether do or read for fun?
What it is is overrated. A story doesn't have to be all actions and explosions to be engaging but Watchman's story is a boring mystery narrative that crawls to its conclusion. The art is also far from Dave Gibbon's best work. Watchmen has been the "greatest comic of all time" for like 40 years now and it's sad how many so-called comic book fans (mostly braindead DC readers) harp on about how comics are dead instead of going out and looking for something new to enjoy outside of The Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen. Even Moore's own Miracleman is better than Watchmen in my opinion.
>>25652614The Absolute universe is the best thing going in comics right now. Absolute Martian Manhunter especially has outright surpassed Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns.
>>25652657omg dude can I just make a post without someone saying something totally retarded? I like Nick Dragotta but it isn't that good. Go read a non-DC comic.
>>25652354It's not that you want to know but that you need to know to not be a newfag
>Rorschach's journal. Friday the 13th, 2026.>Thread devolved to shitposting this morning, replies short and sarcastic.>This thread is afraid of me.>I have seen it's true face.>The posts are extended gutter and the gutters are full of shitposts and when the shit finally scabs over, all of the chuds will drown.>The accumulated filth of all of their (You)s and keks will foam up about their posts.>And all the chuds and jannies will look up and shout "Let the thread die!"
>>25652709Oh right, it's just more tranime. Yeah, sorry, I got laid as a teen so I never cared about that stuff.
>>25652676Iāve been rereading Bone too, itās every bit as good as I remember
>>25652744uh oh, tough guy coming through
God, I have such a strong case of manchild fatigue. Books for this feel? Preferably ones that aren't comics?
>>25652842Read From Hell you FUCKING PRUDE.Protip though: you gotta read it in colour.>>25652718Lmfao>>25652636Hot take: Tarot cards are literature.
Anyone? Any recommendations?
>>25652408You're fucking retarded.
>>25652868You read cartoons for hormonal teenagers
>>25641247FPBP>>25652602SLASH/THREAD
>>25652872>reply to a post from 4 1/2 hours ago>you reply instantlyget a fucking life, bozo
>Look mom! I read books for BIG kids now!
>>25652881>youNTA retard, I'm >>25652744
>>25645126wrong
>>25652433>>25652478if this is the same guy i think it is, he must have some sort of masochism complex, i think he gets off on being gangbanged and bullied online. i cant figure out what else is the drive of such self-destructive autism
