Sometimes you just need a bigger gun
>>23865808>SuperweaponMore like super useless.
>>23866658Most superweapons historically have been.
>>23865808This could've won the OYW but zeon was corrupt as fuck.
Armored Core 6 didn't have enough giant superweapon
>>23866684Gihren didn't get the memo
>>23866684>>23869081You can't say superweapon don't work in Gundam when they almost won the day multiple times.Ignoring the colony drop (that nearly had the EFF capitulate)The EFF "Solar system" proved extremely efficient against fortified installations. It's a pain to set up but it can be moved, it doesn't use fuel, and destroying it once deployed take a lot of time. It was planned to be used against "Á Bao A Qu" the name is awesome but it's a pain to write if it was destroyed first.The Solar Ray destroyed half of the Federation fleet. If it didn't also destroy a part of Zeon's fleet and destroyed the White Base it would have won the war.And even when it come to more modest superweapon like the Big Zam or Newtype weapons, most of them would have proved extremely efficient if the EFF didn't zerg-rush them before completion and didn't happen to have their own amazing newtype.
IRL nuclear weapons can be considered a superweapon, and our entire world is defined around you having them or not.The next superweapon will likely be AIs. Whoever develop first an AI they can order to replace a bazillions of hackers or even engineers will essentially control the world and outpace everyone technologically.
<<Incoming fire from Stonehenge!>>
>>23869081>>23869123Came here to post this. While most super weapons are some massive inefficient mega project, and you have Zeon (and the Titans) clearing out whole colonies for a single use laser, the Federation just uses a couple mirrors and the unmatched power of the sun.It's elegant in its simplicity
>>23865808Gando Rowa, this sea urchin looking, God-killing weapon of the Buff Clan from Ideon. 500km wide and 300km tall, it's so gargantuan that it made an appearance as a map background instead of final boss in SRW alpha 3.
>>23870660>a couple mirrorsTo be fair, that would realistically be a teratons of mirrors and the only way to coordinate them is via a method that minovsky physics if not a solar flare utterly fuck up.Those massive superweapon are usually easier to control. Also the Solar Ray would annihilate everything on a line (even using the moon gravity to as a slingshot) instead of only being lethal at the single point of convergence.>superweapon as a standard orbital defense satellite
>>23869209AI isn't real, retard
>>23870920Anon was also slightly off topic, this is for /m/ works Also the ai bubble popped so it matters not>>23870710The title of God killer really made sense with this monstrosity
>>23870942>the ai bubble poppedLel
>>23870942NO THEY HAVE TO FINISH BUILDING THE NUCLEAR PLANTS FIRST
>>23869123>And even when it come to more modest superweapon like the Big Zam or Newtype weapons, most of them would have proved extremely efficient if the EFF didn't zerg-rush them before completion and didn't happen to have their own amazing newtype.Its hilarious to me how they say the Big Zam was so expensive and resource intensive to build. That's why it took so long to build one. Yet Zeon can spit out thousands of ships including massive ships like the Gwazine. I know it's a cartoon and you shouldn't think about it too much but just set that aside for a minute. Just 1 or 2 extra Big Zams probably would have won the Battle of Solomon. It would have tipped the scales in favor of Zeon.
Fortress Iserlohn official cutawayhttps://www.pixiv.net/artworks/86263967
>>23870991Miniaturization is its own hurdle.Mass-producing ship with regular size reactors and plenty of room? No problem.Producing a MA with a reactor more powerful than ever, without it blowing up? We are working on it.Also the wiki say there was only a dozen of Gwazine. One retcon mock that pilot claimed to have shot more enemy MS than there was MS deployed during the war.Speaking of giant ship, let's have a Dolos-class, only two built. A super-super-carrier that's apparently flawed by having only 7 catapults to get the hundred of MS out.
>>23873237It was clearly a first attempt in making a massive carrier dedicated to mobile suits, even then it might’ve not been surpassed in it’s capacity if I’m not mistaken
>>23871079That's cheating TwN is a super robot show, anon.
Superweapon number 7 right there
>>23870942So…what did it do? Super star killer etc?
>>23875960Not all of them are big, at least not at first.
>>23873237>A super-super-carrier that's apparently flawed by having only 7 catapults to get the hundred of MS out.I genuinely don't believe that at all. Your picture shows 13 to 15 catapults. And even if was 7, it's not a big deal. A US carrier only has 4 catapults but can launch 1 fighter every 15 seconds in combat. Thats 4 per minute. 240 fighters per hour. I would assume Dolos can achieve similar performance with 7 catapults. Assuming 2 mobile suits per 15 seconds that's 8 suits per minute. 480 mobile suits per hour. Why is that being painted as a huge negative when the Dolos only carries about 200 mobile suits?
>>23870660>single use laserSince when? The Colony Laser could be fired repeatedly and has greater range than the Solar system mirror the Feds use
>>23886924US navy carriers can detect enemies approaching from hundreds of miles away and have time to launch. Enemies approaching the Dolos under cover of minovsky particles means they can't be detected until they're already super close. There's nothing wrong with a supercarrier or mobile base, just don't put it on the front lines, have it operate in the rear with a protective escort.>>23886926Even the original Solar Ray as intended by the Zeeks was capable of multiple shots, but they rushed construction and it being the first time a colony laser was ever built and used, it ended up suffering damage when it was fired for the first time and they couldn't repair it to be fired a second time before the battle of A Baoa Qu started. Gryps was used multiple times just fine.
>>23886926The colony laser is a Zeta onwards thing and more refined. Back in 0079 it was the solar say, and they make a note about how they're only gonna get one chance to fire it.
>>23886972>Enemies approaching the Dolos under cover of minovsky particles means they can't be detected until they're already super close. Yes but you can detect the Minovsky jamming and particle density rising. So you send out suits anyway as a matter of procedure.
>>23887030sounds like a waste of fuel
>>23886924>I genuinely don't believe that at all. Your picture shows 13 to 15 catapults.Guess I have a reason to post this other pic.The other "catapult" are just hangar door for smaller vehicle or supply.
>>23886926>The Colony Laser could be fired repeatedlyActually the colony laser couldn't fire again because of a precooling that took weeks.Realistically, if you are operating at the limit of your technology, chance are that you have to replace a fucktons of components, and it takes time.So the real question is what is cheaper to refurbish?A: The bazillion of complex & specific subsystem of a colony laser?B: Identical and rather simple mirrors you mass-produce anyway?Fiction isn't allowed to have fail-safe win all superweapons, but realistically, if you can produce at that scale, using a "Solar system" set of reflector would easily count as a swarm superweapon that's too numerous to neutralize quickly.Also realistically, you may not have a reason for "warship" unless both side become mortally afraid of debris destroying the infrastructure, making warship into glorified police cruiser.
>>23886924>And even if was 7, it's not a big dealAircraft carriers don't operate in a Minovsky environment that reduce detection range and encourage reaction time.Even if we take this pic >>23889374 loosely and give it wide corridors, it could take a lot of time to prepare MS and organize their take-off.When our IRL carriers prepare an assault, they have all their aircraft on the bridge, and have to be prepared to recover/rearm the aircraft fast enough so that none of them run out of fuel waiting.Our IRL carrier are also meant to be always escorted.Anything that would take on a DOLOS would do so expecting 200 MS plus escort.So what would happen if the DOLOS is attacked by 200+ GM?Even supposing Minovsky cheat isn't enough to make it a surprise, the assault may be detected too late to deploy the full complement in time.The elephant in the room however is that SPACE CATAPULT ARE RETARDED IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!!Those are not here to save you a bit of deltaV or give initial speed in a limited direction. They exist solely to give a cool looking take-off and give a parallel to WWII carrier (more like Battle-carrier tho for the heroes tho).Logically they could operate like heli-carrier except the heli can wait around near indefinitely without using fuel.So you need to introduce an aspect that discourage from deploying MS too early.
>>23889386Penrose Mirror?
>>23889386The mirror system is more vulnerable since its massive. Zeon destroyed it by blind firing a ton of rockets at it from far away.
>>23889428>Aircraft carriers don't operate in a Minovsky environment that reduce detection range and encourage reaction time. Zeon can detect Minovsky particles. If the density is high then radar is jammed. If radar is jammed then they know it's an attack. Which means you send out mobile suits. Plus militaries always send out scouts and patrols 24/7. If radar is not jammed, then you will see the enemy company.
>>23889587>Penrose Mirror?No idea what you are talking about, but I googled a fun superweapon, it's not even gunbuster onehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_bomb
>>23889720Ended up rewatching episode 35 & 36Firing tons of rocket is costly, they fire all of their missiles at it and it was still capable of attacking a fleet later.And the Solar system is massive but extremely spread apart.One of the thing people ignore (or forget) is that in the vacuum of space explosions are much weaker.So you need kinetic weapon.But if you create fragmentation bombs, you need fragments that remain dense enough to do damage thousand of mirrors, and those mirrors look like they could easily keep working with some holes in them as long as their maneuvering system isn't kaput.
>>23889723And yet this is a setting where they had entire armies sneak up in debris.Scouts can be killed without the ability to communicate their enemy arrival because of the jamming.Decoys can be sent ahead to waste your scout times, purposefully spreading far more Minovsky particles ahead so you do go all out, find nothing, start going back, then they attack while you are fatigued and need to refuel.Let's suppose the DOLOS always has 50 MS out, rotating them.When the enemy finally attack, you still have to launch 150 MS.If the enemy will be on you in 30 time unit, you need to launch at least 5 MS per time unit to have them all fighting in time.Episode 35/36 showed a long battle with fighters and MS coming back to the ship for repair/rearm.What if you end up with MS waiting? The design could be a bottleneck.I wouldn't be surprised if there's a side-story made to talk about the Dolos-class.
>>23890751This Zeon ship carried around 150 mobile suits, but only had 2 catapults. Yet not one databook says it had a massive flaw with the catapult design. Therefore it makes no sense that the Dolos should have that same weakness when it has over 3 times the amount of catapults.
>>23889386>So the real question is what is cheaper to refurbish? >A: The bazillion of complex & specific subsystem of a colony laser? >B: Identical and rather simple mirrors you mass-produce anyway? The mirror system is highly complex. Not because the mirrors were complicated to manufacture, but because it took an entire space fleet to operate the mirror system. The databooks say that a significant amount of ships were needed to coordinate the movement of all the mirrors. Each ship coordinated a small section of the mirror system. During battle, signals needed to be slowly relayed between each ship because the mirror system was so massive. Minovsky Particles m could also make this situation worse and significantly slow down communication and coordination between ships. Plus the firing arc was limited. The whole mirror system needed to be redployed if the target moved out of the firing arc.So while the colony laser used more physical resources (a large colony), it was significantly easier to operate and maintain. Unlike the mirror system, you didn't need a fleet of ships remaining in very specific positions to operate the colony laser. This freed up a ton of military resources for other tasks.
>>23890675Sorry, was thinking about Foundations Novacula.
>>23890764Kind of random but I'm curious if there are Gundam stories that address what happened to these ships? Were they put into storage in some dry dock somewhere after the anime ended? Were they repainted and used as a normal ship? I'm annoyed Gundam never tells us.
>that time when Zeon tried their hand at terraforming>Gihren instantly wanted to weaponize it
>>23870920Yet
>>23891131I would not trust technobabble written with the goal of balancing a weapon for the setting.To be direct I consider the anime rather highly exaggerated the power of the number of mirrors shown.>Solar systemYou can consider it like IRL drone swarm weapons, cheap but it takes a lot of them to do any real damage. Jamming would fuck up drones, but here you need super-jamming because to deserve notice.The logistic is big but that's just a lot of space trucks, and mass production is the Federation specialty.And I see no reason they couldn't fire from anywhere in sunlight, aimed with gyros with the only data needed per mirror: your position, sun position, target position.Aside a Solar furnace would more logically be a continuous firing weapon than as sudden burst of extra-sunlight. Realistically, overheating spaceship in a vacuum would work wonder.>Solar rayThis one is the massive one.The colony alone is likely heavier than equivalent mirrors and ships put together by several magnitudes. I challenge every word about it being easier to operate or maintain. It's top-level laser technology on a ridiculous scale.It would also require a gigantic support fleet, cooling system a lone mirror don't need, and unlike the mirrors, it's likely very fragile, damage anything and I would imagine it unable to fire without blowing itself up. Turning it around could realistically take weeks just to avoid bending systems.The wiki say it requires a week of cooling and all the energy Zeon can produce, IMO I think that's far too low for a "laser" melting a fleet in seconds without aiming finely.Analyzing these superweapons against real science help a lot see how much they cheated with physics.
Today, I will remind themhttps://youtu.be/43LCg8F2T4k
>>23866819these things are basically the planet-scale version of the toyota truck with a machinegun on top
>>23896527We were so fucking cheated
>>23897344For not getting another series? Sure were.Unless you are one those guy who believe the start was a bait&switch and only wanted the (generic) mecha battle.
Thinking about it, getting GOD-TIER mecha in a setting that regressed to the industrial era count as a Superweapon.
>>23897455Oh no, the hilarity of that intro was the GF was already wiped out.
>>23886926They specifically say when they use it that the ray has like a focusing membrane/lens over the front that was experimental and single use
>>23897461How about a Super Robot in a medieval setting?
>>23901393Anon oh anon. They built the solar ray in like a week. I'm sure Zeon could fix one broken component. Possibly even improve it. No problem.
>>23903759Looking at the tech difference between the faction in Escaflowne and Zaibach, all their mecha are capable of flight, firing energy projectiles, and also have invisibility cape.You'd need at least an army of laser firing Escaflowne, or to be protected by fate to match that.
>>23905225What part is that scene from? I forget if Escaflowne is one of a kind or the only surviving one of its type like in The Big O.
>>23905263Dornkirk's fever dream.
>>23905263It's from the episode where the alliance led by Hitomi counter-attack and storm Zaibach capital with their mass produce Escaflowne.It's portrayed as a Zaibach (internal?) propaganda, implying the Zaibach troops are told bullshit about the reasons they need to capture that lone mecha and the girl.>I forget if Escaflowne is one of a kind or the only surviving one of its typeJoke aside, it is only one of a kind for the human.The Ispano tribe has a factory mothership, one can only wonder WHY. The franchise never had much of a setting even if you take the (very) different manga that was produced at the same time.While /m/en would need no other reason to produce mech, one can only wonder the reason things ended like that.>like in The Big O.If you include the 2nd season it's also not one of a kind. There's just no other in service in the simulation.
Speaking of SUPERWEAPON, I would say Escaflowne has one that's incredibly powerful, and you can hardly defend yourself against it.Best use of a fate altering machine
Not really related but closest enough no need to make a new thread: What's the closest theoretical handheld gun IRL that could use a exo suit type arm reinforcement on a normal soldier that would be equivalent to handling a beam magnum?
>>23905920I dunno, a 40K bolt pistol or some sort of "handgun" firing 15~30mm ammunition
why do beam guns have recoil anyway
>>23905933most beam guns fire off beam shots that seem to take up more space than the internals of the gun, and when the shots exit the beam gun's barrel they almost always expand a bit to be a little wider than the barrel's sizeif the beam gun is producing that much volume of beam shot, then every time it's shooting, the beam gun is probably building up pressure inside and the beam "ammo" that hasn't been fired yet and are held in storage are probably highly compressedif there's pressure, then when the beam "ammo" is released and is shot out of the gun, there's going to be some pushback from the force of the beam shot moving out of the gun's barrel
>>23905933If the magical particles you are firing have mass, you still have to propel that mass.Also there's functionally little difference between beam propulsion, and beam gun. If you are concentrating all the power into one shot, then you are also concentrating a long weak acceleration into a short strong acceleration.
>>23865808So what was the weakness of this weapon? If it can destroy a Magellan class ship in a single shot and disable several nearby ships that a close to the blast, then why was it not mass produced? They could have mounted it on every Zeon fortress and colony. No Federation fleet could approach without massive casualties.
>>23908735Ludicrously inefficient and unweildy solution that requires a spotter to fire with any real accuracy as noted in its dedicated episode. Mobile Suits and more reasonably sized mounted guns could deal with ships as a threat better in significantly greater numbers while taking up less space. As it existed, the thing was highly vulnerable to oncoming fire and could not deliver anywhere near the results of MS. Regarding fortress assaults, where there's a will there's a way.
>>23893883The Solar System is a scaled up version of the WW2 Sonnengewehr proposal, but in actuality the destructive power of it would be fairly low because you can't focus the Sun past a certain point because of angular divergence (which was not accounted for in the German design which assumed they could burn down New York City with it, probably because it started life as Hermann Oberth's weather control mirror proposal). Doesn't matter if you have a terawatt of sunlight shining on the tens of millions of tons of mirror, the sunlight naturally expands over a given area relative to the distance to the target. This means instead of frying the Zeons instantly, instead they and the entire area get a little more sunlight than usual which while great for weather control or starting forest fires is irrelevant to warships or mobile suits or even someone floating around in a normal suit. It also really would take an entire fleet to control the sheer number of mirrors and the super precise location they would need to be at.It also begs the question why Earth is so degraded with desertification if they can build a giant solar array like that, since all that power could selectively warm an area and mess with the weather patterns. It really makes the Federation look insanely corrupt and evil if they have the ability to solve Earth's problems but demand you live in a space colony instead if you don't want the desert coming right up to your doorstep.
>>23909120Because the supplementary material says the Solar system requires a large space fleet to operate it. And the Federation doesn't want to diverted funds to do that on a long term basis. They believe the earth can heal naturally if they export enough common people to space, but leave the elites on earth in select cities. The mangas say the earth was actually slowly healing. Plants were regrowing. The Federation setup massive areas where humans are "banned" from entering and ruining the reclaiming process. But then more colony drops and mobile suit battles destroyed many of these areas during Zeta and ZZ.
>>23909120The Feds tried to outlaw citizens from living on most of the planet and push them to live in designated registered areas. The Feds hoped nature would just heal itself if humans weren't around and they wouldn't have to spend money doing anything.
>>23909120>solar furnace efficiencyYou just need more mirrors. Solar furnace work, it's plain physic, and since you are in space you have no loss due to an atmosphere. It being incredibly inefficient is a different topic.>irrelevant to warships or mobile suitsGetting rid of heat is extremely difficult in space, it's typically handwaved because of the "space is cold" meme, but realistically you could kill a ship by overheating it, especially since realistic-radiators would be near impossible to hide from direct sight>geo-engineeringIf the problem is global warming, heating the planet even more is a silly idea.However, I would absolutely expect such space civilization to build a solar SHADE on a lagrange point (or working as a sail) to selectively cool off the planet.You could destroy the entire ecosystem using a big enough solar sail.>It really makes the Federation look insanely corrupt and evil if they have the ability to solve Earth's problems but demand you live in a space colony instead...except it wouldn't solve the problem?Plus, if you had the means to selectively cancel/diminish the impact of pollution, some would use it as excuses to keep polluting.The most logical way to diminish human's impact over Earth's ecosystem is... to remove human.
>>23908735>So what was the weakness of this weapon?It's useless without a spotter, and you'll want to avoid friendly fire.It still has a maximum range, so you will remain in range of the enemyIt couldn't aim at ships gathered in a veritable battle-line, if a lone warship come at it directly from a different direction, it will be too late to turn around and shootOnce it has fired, it's so powerful it can't be difficult to guess its position even with minovsky jammingEven if no big ship escaped its spotters, it would require constant defense against any smaller fighters, which won't fly in close formation to give you an easy shot>mounted it on every Zeon fortressIt's not exactly a mere turret, easy to hide, or turn around.You'd have to deploy it like a very fragile and poorly maneuverable warship and if the enemy lead with a rain of smaller projectiles it can't be protected.
>>23908735>then why was it not mass producedZeon corruption.
Buster weaponry is so powerful it is not only banned for use by all the factions, but it's just completely impractical and useless for the purposes of their wars anyway since destroying planets isn't really an economic, status or strategic win in a universe with limited resources and only a madman would do itAnd a madman did
I love this thing. I love it's sound design, I love it's theme, I love it's Lovecraft-ass name, I love how monstrous it is. You were taken from us too soon, Yomagn'tho.
>>23912340Rail gun?
>>23889428>The elephant in the room however is that SPACE CATAPULT ARE RETARDED IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!! >Those are not here to save you a bit of deltaV or give initial speed in a limited direction.why not? seems usefulmechanical acceleration is cheaper than chemical rockets
>>23889428So does the Dolos. It's escorted by its own fleet. 8 catapults is plenty enough.>So what would happen if the DOLOS is attacked by 200+ GM? There is no way 200 GM would be able to sneak up on the Dolos.>Even supposing Minovsky cheat isn't enough to make it a surprise, the assault may be detected too late to deploy the full complement in time. We can be sure that a good amount of suits are always on patrol to detect anything the sensors miss. 20% is always on patrol or on training exercises. So 50 to 100 suits are always deployed.
First,Anon reminded me that a Lunar mass driver would easily count as a superweapon.The moon is a harsh mistress>>23912583If we were talking about a kilometer long, or 500m long catapult, for the purpose of launching vehicle toward a specific orbit, sure.Here we are talking about space-boat catapult for the sole reason of imitating aircraft-carrier (catobar).Most of the time they don't even point the ship in the direction the MS is going so it would have to waste propellant cancelling the velocity or turning the ship around.You can't even say it's a way to clear out the deck quickly or they wouldn't make a spectacle of it.>chemical rocketsAll proper space vehicles have nuclear propulsion in Gundam, else they would require propellant tank bigger than the rest of the ship.
>>23912823>Most of the time they don't even point the ship in the direction the MS is going so it would have to waste propellant cancelling the velocity or turning the ship around. >You can't even say it's a way to clear out the deck quickly or they wouldn't make a spectacle of it.what are you on aboutships are almost always facing towards the engagement, since everyone in UC obeys space chivalry rulesand the spectacle is usually because they're launching a single unitbut there are many shots where grunt suits are launched in quick succession from a single catapult >All proper space vehicles have nuclear propulsion in Gundam, else they would require propellant tank bigger than the rest of the ship.I meant the mobile suitsthey're usually depicted as needing propellant, they don't just shit out nuclear blasts from their reactorsand it's a good idea to draw delta v from the ship instead of mobile suit in any case
>>23912853cont.and even besides all that, you said that catapults are a bad idea in general, not just gundam's implementationI'm particularly interested in your reasons for saying that
>>23912818Meaning you have to dedicate a fleet to protect a carrier instead of doing any other jobs.You are giving the enemy a very big and cost-effective target that don't really use MS to their fullest since MS are rather short range.>There is no way 200 GM would be able to sneak up on the Dolos.This is a setting where they can sneak up entire fleets and have MS hiding as asteroid.At most with house rules they'd go "Minovsky level increasing!!!!" and that's very late.Also detection range isn't based on the number but the size of the individual vehicles.It can get crazier if you know the direction of a sensor, then, without jamming, you can make dozens of aircraft look like one.>We can be sure that a good amount of suits are always on patrol to detect anything the sensors miss. 20% is always on patrol or on training exercises. So 50 to 100 suits are always deployed.With jamming anyone on patrol would have to survive and get home fast enough to warn to launch the remaining 150 suits.If you launch 1 MS per minute you need 21 minutes to launch 150.And I let you do the math if it takes more than one minute.There's also the question of how long it takes for a MS needing repair to land or resupply.Or maybe on paper it looked enough, but in practice it's clunky.
>>23912853>ships are almost always facing towards the engagement, since everyone in UC obeys space chivalry rulesNo?I won't even bother looking for a video of them launching MS before the MS turning 90° sideway.You should KNOW they don't follow "chivalry rules".Realistically they even can't because orbital dynamic means you aren't always facing the direction in which you are traveling.The entire point of MS is to have them do the combat while your ship avoid risk.And when they do need to face the enemy, it's a bad idea to open your hangar doors straight forward. I'll point out the DOLOS guns are broadsider.At best the flat-area/catapult is justifiable for a surface Minovsky-craft capable spaceship. It gives a useful landing platform for enemy as well.>the spectacle is usually because they're launching a single unitIt's ridiculous to waste time when launching any MS, especially in a hurry as you are attacked.>but there are many shots where grunt suits are launched in quick succession from a single catapultIf we are honest those are filler shot for mook vessel.>I meant the mobile suitsThe Mobile suits are big specifically because they carry Minovsky Reactors, aka safe-nuclear-fusion.I did the math long ago, it credibly save what, 1% of fuel? If launched at up to 20G? They only have at best 100m of catapult.Even assuming they cruise ballistically, when they dodge around they build up/down the speed they gained from a catapult for at least 50+ timesAnd that's only a gain if the ship have the time to turn in the right direction.
I declare Macross-like launching arms to be a superweapon. It clearly be some kind of long lost alien supertech given they appear so rarely.>>23912857>and even besides all that, you said that catapults are a bad idea in general, not just gundam's implementationSPACE-catapult and as a carrier thing.What you want is the ability to deploy your stored metal-warrior ASAP, even if you are taking damage.IRL sea-carriers can be disabled by loosing catapults of just the elevators.So if gravity or aerodynamic lift isn't a consideration, you'll want multiple opening in safe/practical direction, near the hangars. Not to force all vehicle into a bottleneck.With mecha they'd probably launch faster if you just opened a door and let the MS jump out themselves.Or if you are afraid of using thrusters too close, use that Macross-like robotic arms so everything can be moved in 3D rather than on a 2D rail.Even accepting the catapult for quick launch, you don't need it to be 20m-100m long because it's too short to save any delta-V.I actually am a big fan of magnetic catapult to save delta-V in a massive infrastructure, but no setting take the time to use them properly. Especially on the Moon where they would be ridiculously useful, even more than on Earth where the lower atmosphere negate 80% of the gain.
>>23912862>Meaning you have to dedicate a fleet to protect a carrier instead of doing any other jobs. Carriers are never alone. US carriers always travel in strike groups where the carrier is protected and assisted by other ships. They never send a US carrier alone or unescorted. >This is a setting where they can sneak up entire fleets and have MS hiding as asteroid. They might be able to sneak 1 or 2 smaller ships through an asteroid belt, but usually never more than that. And 1 or 2 small ships can't destroy the Dolos. >If you launch 1 MS per minute you need 21 minutes to launch 150. It's definitely much faster than that. US carriers launch 1 plane every 30 seconds. So assuming Dolos launches 14 suits a minute, you only need about 10 minutes to launch 150 MS.>Or maybe on paper it looked enough, but in practice it's clunky.Not really. Look at the attached picture. This Zeon ships holds 150 Mobile suits but only has just 2 launch catapults, and 1 recovery landing strip in the rear. Yet they never complain about not being able to launch MS fast enough. Dolos has 7 catapults. Possibly more. So it's not an issue.
>>23912415No, buster energy>The ultimate super-energy created from an energy emission system developed in the AD century , when technological progress reached its limit . Once the power generation starts, this system shows high efficiency like a permanent engine , but the big drawback is that the total energy emission is too large, and it is not easy to control, so the risk of buster collapse always exists. In fact, it is said that there has been a disaster in the past that caused enormous human casualties, but the detailed circumstances have been forgotten
>>23912920So it’s actually the fucking exhaust of the engine in a concentrated form?
>>23912862>With jamming anyone on patrol would have to survive and get home fast enough to warn to launch the remaining 150 suits. But Zeon can detect when they are getting jammed. They will see a big jamming cloud on their sensors. So the Dolos will be on high alert. It's like setting off a smoke grenade. You may not be able to see inside the smoke, but you know a smoke grenade was detonated.
Can I get away with Tactical Surface Fighter as superweapon?So I can post this carrier for VTOL fighter.In setting those are the game-changer allowing to beat the beta.
>>23912955Those tanker ships are too small.
>>23912918>Carriers are never aloneAs said before, IRL carrier don't operate under minovsky warfare where a whole fleet can be hiddenIf you are going to rationalize design from Gundam, then Battle-carrier exist and they win wars.>They might be able to sneak 1 or 2 smaller ships through an asteroid belt, but usually never more than thatThey snuck whole fleets, including the Solar System, let alone MS-carrying ship.>And 1 or 2 small ships can't destroy the Dolos.A Dolos is the cost of a fleet, without the flexibility and redundancy of a fleet.It's specifically said to be itself weak against MS since it relies on what it carry and act more as a "mobile fortress".>It's definitely much faster than that.>US carriers launch 1 plane every 30 secondsGoogle say 37s for a Nimitz carrier with 4 catapultsThis video said each catapult can launch 1 aircraft every 60 to 90 under optimal condition, less at nighthttps://youtu.be/K6qr0a7pL4o?t=90And the Nimitz can do this while aircraft are landing. I gotta hope the Dolos actually as other opening for landing.Optimal condition probably include every aircraft being brought up on the deck and ready.Actually some MAHQ number say >However, like many of Gihren’s super weapons, the Dolos had flaws, the most principle of which was the lack of adequate launching facilities for its massive mobile suit complement. With only seven catapults, deploying the entire mobile suit complement could take more than 20 minutes.While another wiki say>has excellent deployment capabilities thanks to its seven catapultsSo frankly, I'll just settle that in story it's a bigass wunderweapon that was still destroyed, like the Nazi Bismark.>Not really. Look at the attached picture.>GwadanIt has 3 catapults, the number say "approx 100 MS", DOLOS sized and maybe they just learned what catapult design worked better.
>>23912935>But Zeon can detect when they are getting jammedOnly when it's too late. The entire point of Minovsky physics is to allow tactical attack like these.You only get the enemy position if your scouts survive to get back in range.As said previously, they snuck up whole fleets, and made fleet decoy.>see a big jamming cloudNo, they detect when they ENTER the big jamming cloud, meaning the enemy is right next to hem.Also if you aren't in a jamming cloud yourself, it means you are yourself easily detectable and the enemy know what it must face.
>>23913019>They snuck whole fleetsWhen? >So frankly, I'll just settle that in story it's a bigass wunderweapon that was still destroyed, like the Nazi Bismark. If I recall correctly, there were 2 Dolos class carriers during the Battle of ABQ. The Dolos and the Dolowa. The Dolos has the firepower of a entire Zeon just by itself and it was guarded by even more Zeon fleets. The Federation needed multiple fleets to take down the Dolos, but suffered enormous casualties. There were scenes of Salamis and Magellan ships that were on fire and exploding. The Federation Captains ordered their ships to suicide ram the Dolos.Meanwhile the Federation decided attacking the Dolowa head on was a bad idea and they didn't have the numbers to do it. So they only targeted the Dolowa engines and ordered their MS disable the engines. The Dolowa couldn't move with disabled engines. So the Federation fleet went around the disabled Dolowa and avoided attacking it. Similar to the Bismark during WW2. So I'm not sure if suicide ramming counts as "defeating" the Dolos.
>>23912935>see huuuuge jamming cloud>launch!!!! launch!!! launch!!!!>send scouts>it's fake or everything you send to destroy it don't come back>wait forever for attack>start pulling back to resupply and take a piss>enemy spy send signal>enemy launch the attack while your pants are down
>>23913019I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding about Minovsky Particles. It's not stealth technology. It's jamming technology.
>>23913030There's the OYW case when they didn't know where the fuck the main federation fleet was, and didn't see the Solar System deploy until it was too late.Then there's the CCA case where Char tricked the EFF with a decoy fleet and seized Luna II.Then there's the billion times Zeon launched surprise attacks or the main character ship escape detection.In the best case, this is considered standard in Gundam setting to have very short reaction time.>Once the DOLOS is mass produced, the Federation is finished!Summarized that for you.The Dolos were "wunderweapon" and we know how the meme go, if they spent the same effort building more reasonable ships they would have had more of them, and wouldn't put all their eggs in the same basket, especially if disabling one allow to completely ignore it.>There were scenes of Salamis and Magellan ships that were on fire and exploding. The Federation Captains ordered their ships to suicide ram the Dolos.>So I'm not sure if suicide ramming counts as "defeating" the Dolos.Don't remember such scene, sure isn't in the original episode 42, and I couldn't find mentions of ramming in a wiki.In any case, given the importance of the Dolos, sacrificing two ships to get one would still be worth it.
>>23913056You are the one who don't understand that IRL jamming involve one vehicle saturating sensors until said sensors can't detect anything else around.A jammer is EXTREMELY VISIBLE, like a flashlight in your face.To exist and work as described, Minovsky "jamming" is about a bubble that spread/disperse/redirect the IR/EM signatures of anything inside so much and so far you neither know what it is, where it is, or how big it is if you even detect it.Take >>23913040Imagine pointing your flashlight at a bubble, and nothing in it is illuminated, you just see small bit of lights coming back from random direction, going in every direction, even in direction you weren't pointing your light at, and everything directly behind the bubble is far less illuminated than it would normally be.The only thing you can detect with certainty is if you are inside the bubble.or you are a Newtype and you can feel things inside as if minovsky particles were your own private sensor-cloudTHAT is what you need to bring back close-combat.
>>23913057>Don't remember such scene, sure isn't in the original episode 42, and I couldn't find mentions of ramming in a wiki. I'm assuming anon is talking about the manga or movies. If we aren't counting manga, there are some scenes where Salamis charge into the Dolos but explode before impact. We can assume Federation tried that tactic repeatedly until one succeeded. >In any case, given the importance of the Dolos, sacrificing two ships to get one would still be worth it.Not that anon but that's basically admitting you can't win normally. Suicide is a double edged sword.
>>23893569Why the extra H?
>>23913080>admitting you can't win normally>normallyYou do understand why I must laugh at you for saying that?Any soldier is sent on a mission that might be "suicide" for the sake of protection something of greater importance than himself.If the DOLOS weren't destroyed/disabled, if Zeon didn't lose, those Federation ships would later be scuttled by the victor, assuming the ships/crews survived.If the Federation didn't lose their Solar System, those slow unwieldy DOLOS would have been easy target and a formidable waste.
>>23909494>You just need more mirrorsAngular divergence probibits focusing more tightly than a given point, so at any reasonable range (tens of thousands km minimum) you need impractically huge arrays (hundreds of millions of tons) in perfect formation to get the tens of kilowatts per m2 extra needed to fry an armored warship. There is also thermodynamics forbidding using the Sun to heat an object hotter than the Sun (in this case the area being fried's temperature can't exceed that of Sun's surface) which acts as a cap on potential damage.>realistically you could kill a ship by overheating itYes but you'd need actual lasers or (mega)particle beams to apply tens of kilowatts or more.>heating the planet even more is a silly idea.Weather is a heat engine, so a big enough space mirror could strategically alter ocean currents and to make more ice in winter (albedo), mess with the track of hurricanes (which move heat away from the tropics), or even just use the heat to evaporate clouds during evening over the ocean or poles to cool the planet more at night (radiative cooling removes more heat than large solar mirror arrays can input) and make more sea ice.
>>23914193I can only imaging how badly people would fuck up trying to do weather engineering at that scale.
>>23914188We aren't talking ideals. We are talking engineering.The engineers who designed the Salamis didn't think:>"Gee this ship would be great as a suicide exploding battering ram". No. They designed the ship to WIN in battle against Zeon ships and SURVIVE. Other wise they would just designed a giant missile. It would have been significantly cheaper. It's the same reason Zeon didn't install self destruct buttons inside their mobile suits despite them being nuclear powered.
>>23889428>>23873237>Speaking of giant ship, let's have a Dolos-class, only two built. A super-super-carrier that's apparently flawed by having only 7 catapults to get the hundred of MS out.You didn't watch the anime at all. Dozens of were launching out the Dolos per second. It wasn't a problem.
Pictured,Franco-Belgian comic with a space laser meant to stop Hurricane.the megacorp that made it also intended to manipulate the weather in their favor.To keep out of terrorist hands.>>23914193The points remain,In a previous post I'm pretty sure did I said the Solar System power was exaggerated a lot.Especially in that it act as a strong burst attack (vaporization anime-style) when it would more realistically be a weak but continuous attack.A rocky fortress could absorb a lot of heat before the heat-pump start failing.>Weather is a heat engine, so a big enough space mirror could strategically alter ocean currents and to make more ice in winter (albedo), mess with the track of hurricanes (which move heat away from the tropics), or even just use the heat to evaporate clouds during evening over the ocean or poles to cool the planet more at night (radiative cooling removes more heat than large solar mirror arrays can input) and make more sea ice.The problem is you are pouring more energy into a closed-system than it can radiate out.I have no doubt you'd also manipulate the weather by adding energy at other place, the problem is if you don't have the means to cool off other place.
>>23914255>We aren't talking ideals. We are talking engineering.Precisely.The engineers who designed the Salamis didn't think:>"boys, don't you dare damage the ship too much! Keeping the ship safe is more important than winning the war or depriving the enemy of a ship worth ten more">to WIN in battle against Zeon ships and SURVIVESound like an "ideal" to me.The enemy also gets a vote.Plus you can question the purpose of such space-warships. MS are game-changer.New Salamis can be justified as the infrastructure being already in place.Making Dolos was arguably hubris, even if Zeon didn't the resources to win, a different choice might have inflicted more losses to the Federation and avoided single-point failures.>It's the same reason Zeon didn't install self destruct buttons inside their mobile suits despite them being nuclear powered.Putting aside that most MS pilot fight to the death, that Feds gave up on GM using core-fighter, and few MS survive, Zeon MS are in fact built to get so damn close to warships they can kick them in the bridge or slice them with heat hawk.It's like you aren't willing to win the war.https://youtu.be/n13Dg9Kz5s8?t=791Also I think 8th MS show a fed general counting on his GM exploding like nuke to go around the treaty forbidding nuclear weapon.But I don't consider 8th MS to be worth counting.>>23914462If stock footage is all that matter to you, then each side have infinite missiles, infinite MS, infinite warships and the war is only won once the Gundam defeat Zeon's latest wunderweapon.Also a Dolos exploded without showing kamikaze Salamis (minutes after Gihren praising the Dolos force as enough to clear the N field)https://youtu.be/n13Dg9Kz5s8?t=1021That catapult problem come from the MAHQ wiki.https://www.mahq.net/dolos/Since other wiki go the other way about them, it's disputable.Frankly, all I care is to rationalize the Dolos-class as being another wunderweapons nazi-style.
>>23915040>Sound like an "ideal" to me. Then you don't understand what ideal means. Any ship can ram an enemy. But not all ships can win battles.
>>23913019I really do not understand where databooks and Gundam wiki get the idea that the Dolos has catapult problems. Where did this meme come from? If you watch the anime it was never a problem. This scene is from the remastered movie version where the animation budget was several million dollars. This is brand new animation and the Dolos was just fine launching units from its catapults. This is Gundam wiki is full of misinformation and old incorrect data they copy pasted from MAHQ. The Dolos is a powerful ship that can fight entire fleets. Zeon's problem is that they didn't have enough of them. During the final battle at ABQ, Zeon could only field two Dolos class ships. If Zeon had just one more Dolos, it's very likely the Federation would have been defeated. That's how razor thin the margin of victory was for the Federation at ABQ.
>>23915071feels like a weird hill to die on
>>23915040I think you are looking at the Dolos the wrong way. The idea of the Dolos is not wrong. It's a massive mobile command and carrier ship that can be deployed to dominate an entire battlefield. Don't think of it as a mega ship. Think of it as a better and cheaper option than building a brand new asteroid base. Zeon recognized that stationary bases were vulnerable to the Federation Solar System attack. So a gigantic carrier ship can stay mobile is a great counter to the Solar Ray. The Dolos is mobile and can't be hit by such a super weapon.The Dolos is a fantastic mega ship and did it's job well. The Dolos hard carried the Zeon fleet during the final battle, and probably did 70% of all the work. The main issue is that it simply wasn't enough against the Federation forces. There were too many and, depending on which version you read or watch, the Federation were absolutely fanatical in their desire to win. As some other anons said the Federation were so desperate to sink the Dolos that they were suicide ramming their ships into it. It's both desperate and speaks to how much of a dangerous threat the Dolos was. The Federation needed to take it down. The Dolos couldn't be left standing. That thing was a monster.
>>23915094People get too obsessed with WW2 comparisons that they miss something obvious. It's a strategic asset. After the war, Even the Federation starts building bigger carriers like the Dogosse Giar and General Revil.
>>23915094Zeon is only interesting because they are consistent losers who occasionally get a few victories. The audience is only interested in how they are losers and why they lose. >If only they had 1 more big Zam! >If only Zeon had 1 more Dolos! >If only they didn't have infighting!If Zeon won, then no one would care about them as a faction. We had plenty of evil empire factions in science fiction and anime.
>>23915071I like that animation. I'm curious. Did they ever show how the Dolos was actually destroyed? Like was it surrounded or have some epic showdown with other enemy ships?
>>23916313of course there is, that guy wouldn't shut up about how salamis kept ramming it
>>23916313Not really. The Japanese can't decide how Dolos was destroyed. Some anime have it destroyed off screen. Other anime show it randomly exploding during the battle, but we see no epic showdown.
>>23916321You seem oddly upset about something so mundane. So what if the Salamis ram Dolos? It's not like it's a big deal
>>23916313Igloo has one in the midst of blowing up but it's not shown how it got to that point.
>>23915048You are the idealistic anon who think you can win war without being ready to lose a ship.Following your logic, the Federation "forbid desperate ramming", the ship goes down without taking out a target, and Zeon is still fighting.During WWII the Allies would sacrifice multiple Sherman to take out a Panzer.>>23915071The big question is where MAHQ got it themselves.>If Zeon had just one more Dolos...they wouldn't have had the resources to produce other warships, reducing their army flexibility.If they took the resources out of the Solar ray, they could miss the occasion to destroy half of the Federation's fleet including the Solar System which is very suited to destroy Dolos.Also while the animation quality is clearly better, we have to be honest in that it is still cheap & looped animation, they needed to convey the fact it was strong and launched plenty of MS, without time to dedicate to consistency.ps: the second Dolos was half-finished itself.
>>23915094>Don't think of it as a mega ship.>The Dolos is a fantastic mega ship and did it's job wellI think your argument got away from you, staged a coup, took control and installed a dictatorship using your name as a figurehead.I can't find many arguments against Dolos as Command ship, it's obviously what you would do with a costly warship you can't afford to lose and fight from afar.But Federation's hovercraft like the Big-Tray were more about mobility than firepower, they had more of them and other giants for actual combat.https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/Big_Tray-classhttps://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/Heavy_Fork-classIn space the Federation just used normal warships and kept them in the back. Attracting less attention.So the Dolos would be incredibly overbuilt & less practical.It is just putting all your eggs in a single basket, aiming for mutually exclusive goals.-be strong like an asteroid base without being slow as a rock-be mobile like a ship without dedicating all your mass to engines-be powerful without sacrificing engines & armor for guns-carrying mobile suits without sacrificing everything else-being a command ship without being too important to move from a strategic spotAnd if you lose one... BIG loss.>is a great counter to the Solar Ray. The Dolos is mobile and can't be hit by such a super weapon.The Solar Ray is Zeon tho ;pThe Federation Solar System was used against a bunch of Zeon ships coming to help Solomon.You can't exactly dodge light, it doesn't take long to aim even with "cooldown", and space trajectories are very predictable.A Dolos would be a very cost-effective target for a Solar System.Its only way to counter a Solar Syst would be to be close enough to launch enough MS to destroy the Solar System commands ships (and I am saying that in the Dolos favor).>>23916313>Did they ever show how the Dolos was actually destroyed?from the old series it just explode >>23913057 then 3 Salamis CHAD pass-by unscathed.
>>23916821No. The real question is where some lf the databooks got the idea that Dolos can't launch stuff fast enough. Because I haven't found it anywhere else. Sounds like something a writer made up just to give Dolos a flaw. >During WWII the Allies would sacrifice multiple Sherman to take out a Panzer. They didn't "sacrifice" Shermans. Multiple Shermans would engage a German Tank. The Sherman tank crews would fight with the intention of staying alive after the battle was over. But some Sherman tanks would unfortunately get taken out by the Germans during the fighting.
>>23915094>>23915040If it matters to you two, some very very very old databooks say the Dolos class took part in the Battle of Loum. They smashed the Federation. I'm not sure if it's canon anymore but it's fun to consider. The Dolos smashed the Federation at Loum. So the Federation wanted revenge and blew it up at the end of the war. Like the Bismarke German battleship.
>>23913453You're supposed to pronounce it with a Zeon accent
>>23916824>The Federation Solar System was used against a bunch of Zeon ships coming to help Solomon. >You can't exactly dodge light, it doesn't take long to aim even with "cooldown", and space trajectories are very predictable. It took them weeks to set it up and prepare. Then several days to aim it.>A Dolos would be a very cost-effective target for a Solar System. The Federation only hit Solomon because it was stationary. The location was known. You can't hit a ship if it's on the move. Space is vast and the Federation can't see everywhere.
Why does the Dolos need a special weakness? Why can't it just be a situation where it put up a good fight but was eventually overwhelmed and destroyed by superior Federation numbers?
>>23916884That's not very dramatic
>>23916868They deployed it in no time just as they were starting the assault on Solomon,Literally:"How long left?""4 minutes sir""Solomon should be able to see us soon"https://youtu.be/I-h_BXsGzUs?t=878Then they re-aimed it at a fleet escaping in the same battleVaporizing multiple ship at once with a damaged Solar System.https://youtu.be/zDS3Da7em2Q?t=754A Dolos would be easy to hit, it's literally a fortress-size target, slower than an escaping fleet.
>>23916884>Why does the Dolos need a special weakness? Why can't it just be a situation where it put up a good fight but was eventually overwhelmed and destroyed by superior Federation numbers?It did put up a good fight.The weakness is that they are not cost-efficient and they were loosing the economic war.
>>23916884>Why does the Dolos need a special weakness?So you know why Dolos-sized super carrier didn't become the new standard.
>>23916977>A Dolos would be easy to hit, it's literally a fortress-size target, slower than an escaping fleet.Prove the Federation can see far enough to both find and track a moving Dolos.
>>23916981>The weakness is that they are not cost-efficient and they were loosing the economic war.US aircraft super carriers aren't cost efficient. They cost billions of dollars, take almost 10 years to build under normal production, and require hundreds of millions in yearly maintenance costs and supplies. But the super aircraft carrier's battle capability far outweighs any cost considerations.
>>23916981The economic war doesn't seem to matter in UC Gundam. Colonies are self-sufficient, grow their own food, make their own water, and mine asteroids for resources.
>>23917043From what I remember the Solar System couldn't fire without a spotter. They had to wait for the Federation fleet to get close to send back targeting data.
>>23917053If they are so useful why didn't Zeon build more? Why didn't the Federation make their own giant ships? The reason is both couldn't afford it.
>>23917068Zeon WAS in the process of making more Dolos. They were defeated before that happened.>FederationThe Federation could do it as well. But their entire spending policy is "spend the absolute smallest bare minimum amount possible. We don't care if that means more a lot people die."
>>23914221It has the same risks as cloud seeding just on a much bigger scale.>>23914978>The problem is you are pouring more energy into a closed-system than it can radiate out.That's why you pour the heat in the right place to INCREASE Earth's radiative capacity, such as evaporating cirrus clouds (low albedo, locks in heat like all clouds) over the poles to make it cooler. Less low albedo clouds = more radiative cooling at night = cooler planet. Tall clouds have high albedo so making tall clouds in the day over the tropics (forests have low albedo) and evaporating clouds over the poles at sunset would cool Earth quite well. Steering warm water away from the poles to increase the ice coverage also makes the planet much colder since that's literally how ice ages have started. It's also not even adding too much energy since a Solar System would just shining a few dozen watts extra over tens to hundreds of kilometers of land. Now it is also true that messing with clouds can make droughts with this, so for all we know maybe the Federation doesn't do geoengineering because they're risk adverse and know people would blame them for all the desertification.
>>23916981Wasn't that an old Lucasfilm Games title?
>>23917043Minovsky particles don't make you invisible, the only reason the Jormungand needed targeting data was because they couldn't afford to miss by much, they still shot a ship without being given targeting data and didn't seem to have problem getting IFF, A very damaged solar system had no problem vaporizing an escaping fleet of ships well spread apartNote that you are already bargaining a situation where somehow no one is able to pinpoint your HUUUUUGE super-carrier for the few minutes needed to aim. Cause once it's spotted it's not going to dash out in the minutes it has before the weapon shoot.Hypothetically, if the Solar system isn't set up yet, poorly defended, with the Federation's kept busy looking the other way, a Dolos might be able to send all its MS in a rush.>>23917059They import foods from Earth (minovsky powered black market) and M'Quve still needed to extract critical mineral from Earth despite this being the colonies main advantage.The only reason Zeon started so well was because the Federation was caught unprepared, MS were extremely efficient against warships and Zeon dropped a colony to both frighten and decapitate the Federation.
>>23903759>>23905225Literally Red Ranger Isekai?
>>23917244>That's why you pour the heat in the right place to INCREASE Earth's radiative capacity, such as evaporating cirrus cloudsOnly valid if by doing so you don't DECREASE it somewhere else while also pouring extra heat.I'm not disagreeing there might be condition where the energy injected would still allow to bleed some heat, but if the Solar System isn't adding that much energy it would also mean it don't have much result either.If you have mirrors, you might rather redirect the sunlight away, acting as a shade, one big enough to Europe, they need it right now or the US east cost a few months ago.As for what trigger Ice age, scientist seem to consider Earth orbit more important.https://www.sciencealert.com/study-reveals-how-earths-orbit-triggers-ice-ages-and-theres-one-in-the-next-11000-years
>>23919362Federation ships do not have infinity vision or map hacks. They can't see ships unless they get within a certain distance. Remember that space is huuuuuuuge. There are vast distances between targets. A space ship seen through the window at the edge of combat distance would be smaller than the grain of sand. Some ships never even see each other at all during combat. And to spot a space ship hundreds of thousands of miles away would require a telescope and exact coordinates. And Minovsky particles can mess things up further.
>>23919362>They import foods from EarthThis changes in 0083 after the colony drop. Earth imports food from the colonies in Zeta. All of Earth's farmland was mostly destroyed. So the Federation forcibly taxes food from the colonies.>M'Quve still needed to extract critical mineral from Earth despite this being the colonies main advantage. It wasn't that M'Quve needed to extract minerals from earth. But since they were invaded Earth anyway, Zeon was going to extract as much valuable resources as possible. Ordinarily they would just drag another asteroid from the asteroid belt and mine it for minerals. But that's a long process and the Zeon military was too busy to do that during the war.
>>23919376Orbital forcing is only one component of Earth's climate. Sunlight can remain the same or even increase but Earth still cool, and that is because the amount of heat Earth radiates away is crucial. See https://web.archive.org/web/20200311095038if_/http://people.oregonstate.edu/~carlsand/carlson_encyclopedia_Quat_2013_YD.pdf for a description of the Younger Dryas mini-ice age which was caused mostly by more ice at the poles because of disrupted ocean currents. The extra heat just went into the tropics and subtropics where they stayed about the same while the rest of the planet cooled severely. Or volcanic eruptions which put dust and sulfur in the atmosphere which also raises Earth's albedo and causes cooling (although also blackens ice sheets which makes the process work in reverse long term). The Solar System would be analagous to a volcano in terms of disrupting local or regional climate which if done in the right place can alter weather patterns over the whole planet. Therefore it could cause global warming by increasing the rate of sea ice melting so lower planetary albedo (which lets more water into the oceans so potentially more rain), or cause global cooling by altering ocean currents for less sea ice. In either case, this changes distribution of rainfall, monsoons, tropical cyclones, etc.
>>23919586>But that's a long process and the Zeon military was too busy to do that during the war.They were already doing that during the war, that's what Axis was. I guess it could probably have started prior to the OYW too.>>23919586>>23919362>They import foods from Earth>Earth imports food from the colonies in Zeta.The colonies needing to import their food from the Earth never made any sense, where is this even stated? Tomino's setting notes only mentioned that the colonies required certain elements\materials that could not be found\created solely in space, I'm guessing for some advanced electronics and chemical processes.https://www.gundamunofficial.com/archive/gundamsetting.html>But without special minerals such as mercury and platinum, which existed only on Earth, the Sides could never achieve complete independence.The colonies are supposed to be self-sufficient for basic foodstuff production since they can have entire colonies devoted for farming (e.g., Texas colony) as well as hydroponics pods attached to normal city colonies as well, and sure the colonies within each side can trade between each other, but mass importing food between earth and colonies because the colonies supposedly can't grow their own food is a bit insane, how many rockets they would need to launch to feed the 9 billion in space before the OYW? Why didn't Side 3 suffer mass starvation during the EF's trade embargo because you can't magically just start up farms to feed 1.3 billion on short notice because supply lines for enough food to feed over 1 billion are measured in days and weeks, not months? Imagine the Berlin airlift but the Allies fail and shut it down halfway.I'm not saying they can't trade goods for services at all between earth and space, but in the specific scenario of feeding the masses pre-OYW, it doesn't seem likely that the majority of food would be launched from Earth to space.
>>23920039I think the situation was that Earth grew its own food. The Colonies handles their own food production.North America (and a few other places) were the primary farms for the planet. - One Year War destroyed the European farms located in Ukraine. It also destroyed coastal fishing cities and seafood production in the Pacific. - 0083 destroyed the North American farmland. This was huge as it provided most of the worlds remaining grain.- CCA destroyed any remaining Chinese farmland inland.Basically the Earth couldn't grow food anymore. So during Zeta, the Earth government traded with the Colonies' for food. (Hint: they forcibly raised taxes and took food from colonies). Which is why a lot of Colonies and Spacenoids lacked food during ZZ, CCA, and Unicorn. You have colony citizens who are struggling.
>>23875960she can destroy my dick any day
>>23920094>Which is why a lot of Colonies and Spacenoids lacked food during ZZ, CCA, and Unicorn. You have colony citizens who are struggling.I don't remember any of the dialogue mentioning that. I mean sure, the spacenoids generally resent the heavy-handedness of the Titans and EF in general, but no one ever said they were starving. In fact, it seems like the spacenoid population kinda exploded again even though half of humanity died 7 years ago, there aren't manpower shortages or a general sense that the economy is fucked or anything like that. When the hell does Banagher mention living through a harsh time where supplies were limited? Not even Char mentions the Feds intentionally withholding food from the spacenoids when he gives a speech about the past wrongs of the Feds and Zeon leaders.There's the famous scene of the fatcat Feds intentionally leaving Dublin to get fucked by the colony drop in ZZ because "too many mouths to feed", but those are Earthnoids and not spacenoids.
>>23920039>But without special minerals such as mercury and platinum, which existed only on Earth, the Sides could never achieve complete independence. This is really weird. Platinum is abundant in asteroids. And we can synthesize mercury if needed. There are even non-toxic mercury substitutes we use now.
>>23919475You don't get it, you seem to believe that detection is space is difficult by default and harder with minovsky magic.It's not the case at all.Space is empty, a literal vacuum. Realistically stealth is beyond impossible, it's not even worth bothering.We detect millimeter big debris, We can passively detect a probe past Jupiter with no effort and scanning 360° would only take minutes,Anything manned is like a 270°K flare against a background of 3°K, let alone a >1000°K nuclear reactor.Minovsky jamming isn't an invisibility field, don't confuse being unwilling/unable to intercept with being unaware.Main use is preventing automated recognition/targeting, a Dolos would be one huge dot on sensors even without using thrusters. You would send a scout to check it's not a "decoy" and that's it.btw: realistically decoy doesn't work either because the only thing that will distract even the cheapest anti-ship missile, is a ship of the same size, shape, power and mass.
Posting superweapon>>23919586Plenty of resources (in a general meaning) such as complex compound are only found on planet. It doesn't have to be only minerals.>>23920039>The colonies needing to import their food from the Earth never made any sense, where is this even stated?Where is it stated that they are 100% self-sufficient?Also who said they import every burger?When it comes to realistic space colonies the starting assumption is needing a few critical organic compound from Earth you can't replace even if you can get most of the rest.https://projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/mining.php#bottleneckEven if do have all you need, replicating Earth ecosystem is ridiculously complicated, you try to replicate one basic aspect, then you realize you are lacking thousands of others organisms that also need their own ecosystem. And then the slightest foreign element turn it all into poison.You sure can't just add shit and start farming on Mars.The bioengineering tech needed to replicate a full ecosystem would likely give us immortality. Maybe science will march on and make UC looks more retro than ship wheel on a spaceship but until then...>Why didn't Side 3 suffer mass starvation during the EF's trade embargoFor the same reason they have shelters, we prepare. They also didn't import every single fries so what the EF embargoed would be something whose lack would only appear month/year later.The EF also wouldn't want to look like the big bad so they would merely make it costlier to get food.Finally black market for the rare organic compounds you need or for bioengineered stuff you never needed on every single colonies since Earth was producing it more than enough anyway.
>>23920684>Plenty of resources (in a general meaning) such as complex compound are only found on planet. It doesn't have to be only minerals.Living soil is something I've seen as a highly prized import from planets in the harder SF stories. Seems reasonable.
>>23920643You're treating detection and targeting as the same thing.Just because a sensor can tell there's a ship somewhere doesn't mean a space laser can instantly hit it. You still need an accurate and continuously updated firing solution. A battleship sized ship is tiny compared to the distances involved in space, and a moving target is much harder to track than a stationary one.Your examples also overstate modern capabilities. We can track some very small debris because we're specifically looking for it in heavily monitored regions around Earth. We do not continuously monitor every part of the Solar System at all times. Objects with the Sun behind them are much harder to detect, and many times we've discovered asteroids only after they passed Earth. Which means we can't detect everything.For example The Delaz fleet, Gato and a bunch of mobile suits were able to sneak into the Federation fleet review despite the Federation boosting security and knowing their were coming.As for probes beyond Jupiter, we don't detect them with no effort. We know where they are because we launched them, track them continuously, and they communicate with us. Finding an unknown object is a completely different problem.Also, a fleet is a completely different target from a single ship. A fleet has multiple large objects moving together, producing a much larger signature. If you already know a fleet is in a general area, a laser strike is far more realistic than finding one hidden ship somewhere in space.A heat source or reactor may make a ship detectable in principle, but detectable is not the same as targetable. The farther away a target is, the more precise your tracking has to be. A ship that can maneuver makes the problem even harder.Minovsky particles don't have to make ships invisible. They only need to degrade long range tracking, identification, and fire control enough that a laser can't just act like a sniper rifle across space.
>>23865808>Sometimes you just need a bigger gun
>>23920684>Posting superweaponUm, what is it?
>>23920698Fuck yeah, always nice to see another GG fan around here.
>>23920684Microbes reproduce so rapidly that you don't need many to start a whole soil ecosystem. And once you have an off-Earth example, you can just use that as a seed to cultivate more soil. Other than that, there are no bottlenecks since phosphorus is in moon rocks (KREEP terrain has 1% phosphorus content) and nitrogen is available in every planetary atmosphere. That is actually the biggest bottleneck since an O'Neill cylinder would require something like 500 million tons of nitrogen. Hope those Jupiter fleets you see every now and then are hauling that in addition to helium 3.>>23920694Not really, because you just need soil for parks since realistic space agriculture would all be done with hydroponics and other methods that require almost no soil.
>>23865808/m/ superweapons implies /m/ realweapons
>>23920643>You don't get it, you seem to believe that detection is space is difficult by default and harder with minovsky magic. Isn't this the whole foundation of Tomino Gundam? Minovsky particles mess with everything. Space Combat has been forced to revert to visual range only. They are so many instances of Zeon ships sneaking up on the Federation and taking them by surprise. I don't see how the Federation can suddenly have the technology to track a single ship that's many hundreds of thousands of miles away.
>>23897455Yeah, because we desperately needed another generic coming-of-age story and another nier clone where the baddies you killed were actually humans all along.Talk about hack writing.
>>23919777It would remain a the fundamental component of Earth's climate, which to add to your list, would also include the Atmosphere's composition, we keep destroying forests and acidifying ocean and soils. So no, we ain't likely to see a situation where we pollute so much it accidentally goes the other way and cool the planet instead.The hotter the atmosphere, the stronger the weather become, so we can expect faster changing weather and more cyclones.
>>23920696NEITHER are ever so slightly difficult here, especially as close as Earth-Moon distance.Detecting something give you its position XYW and jamming don't move your signal 1km away.Detecting T+1 will give you velocity & direction,Trajectory = just mathAiming is plain easy engineering>We can track some very small debris because we're specifically looking for it in heavily monitored regions around EarthActually it's still underfunded as hell, so is the search for asteroids, we do both using surface sensors because space launch is still costly.By UC 0078, your sensors cloud would be omniscient if not for minovsky particles, even then the stealth is mostly politics or decoy.>As for probes beyond Jupiter, we don't detect them with no effortWe do when we lose their signals. Knowing where they should be, doesn't change being able to localize them with precision without needing to "focus harder".Amateurs can detect Voyager 1https://www.iflscience.com/amateur-astronomers-detect-signal-coming-from-voyager-1-spacecraft-25-billion-kilometers-away-82455>Stardust MemoriesThey only snuck in one MS with a cheated nuclear-gun, using multiple fleet as diversion to hide the target, and the EF was stupidly overconfident.I did point out such situation is your only credible scenario.>a fleet>producing a much larger signatureThat's not how detection work in a non-reflective empty medium. IR or EM detection alike.Take your own "space is big" argument, if it worked that way, being as big as 10 ships mean having the signature of a fleet.And no a BOLOS can't instant dash outside a fleet-sized killzone, nor randomwalk to avoid a laser.>Objects with the Sun behind them are much harder to detectChildish space-stealth arguments, be happy I'm addressing it lastWe CAN detect cold spot, you can't even maintain such trajectory for any duration/distance and it would be defeated by any 2nd sensor.
>>23921004I would have spoilered that Girl Genius pic since it's quite recent.
Posting superweapon>>239211731) you'd need perfect bioengineering technology to create the right microbes doing exactly what you want, if you aren't creating them, getting custom-made one can be the resource subject to embargo.2) microbes reproduce fast only in the right environment, the slightest imbalance turn everything upside down3) you still need the ecosystem that follow, up until you get something human can eat AND satisfy every single need.>phosphorus is in moon rocks (KREEP terrain has 1% phosphorus content) and nitrogen is available in every planetary atmospherePresence doesn't mean it's in a form that is easy to extract & exploit.We already foresee ourselves hitting a peak, https://phosphorusfutures.net/the-phosphorus-challenge/peak-phosphorus-the-sequel-to-peak-oil/Lastly the UC setting is trying to save Earth ecosystem. So it if it was that simple, they wouldn't be sending people away in space in the first place.One of the reason for gigantic O'Neill cylinder is getting enough room to fit Earth's ecosystem in a brute-force solution, when you don't have the technology to create post-singularity machine recycling shit into meat.
>>23921200Fucking up with targeting doesn't mean giving every warship an invisibility field,The setting cannot survive with ship that are actually undetectable until it's too late, else Zeon would have no problem using "stealthy" mass-driver to basically nuke any static base on Earth, Rod of God style. And the Federation would easily snipe any structure too big to move.Most of the effects were to prevent CHEAP missiles, identification or instant headshot.We can easily argue that MS do 100% automated targeting, human are just needed to give order since remote control is impossible.>They are so many instances of Zeon ships sneaking up on the Federation and taking them by surprise.The episode featuring the Solar System specifically mention decoys used to distract while the fleet carrying it was hiding in the debris of a destroyed space colony.Past OYW Zeon "fleets" are much, much smaller and the (corrupt) Federation is clearly not trying to kill them all. There are stories around saying the Federation keep/fund remnants to justify their military spending.>I don't see how the Federation can suddenly have the technology to track a single ship that's many hundreds of thousands of miles away.I have no problem with a scenario allowing a Dolos-class to surprise an undeployed (or poorly positioned) Solar System on standby, but the scenario would have to go through many loops, not something that can happen by accident because none of you saw the other.Alternative scenario:Gundam setting would break down if anyone did the math.
>>23921004I keep meaning to get into this, I loved their shit on MTG
>>23921750You should (and sorry for the spoiler like the other anon said, I was just happy to see another GG fan around). It's astonishing how consistently they've managed to keep the comic going, I see throwaway references from 20 years ago becoming plot points in the most recent chapters.
>>23921669>By UC 0078, your sensors cloud would be omniscient if not for minovsky particles, even then the stealth is mostly politics or decoy. Not that anon but the Federation in Mobile Suit Gundam has never shown the ability to monitor vast distances. In fact it's the total opposite. They seem to struggle detecting targets at Beyond Visual Range.
>>23921742It seems like you are confusing what happens in the anime VS what you personally want to see happen. There's a difference. The Feds don't have a perfect surveillance network. They can't really see that far and sometimes enemies can still sneak inside their network. If Char and a Zeon commando group can sneak onto Luna 2, one of the Feds most guarded bases during the One Year War, with explosives then how do you expect the Feds to somehow track the Dolos when it's 300,000 miles away?
>>23921869because base security and national security are two different departments run by different staff with different equipment. it's like expecting a handjob from a prostitute to feel awful because your wife gives you dreadful blowjobs where her teeth keep hitting your dick, what the fuck would one have anything to do with the other?
>>23921669It has nothing to do with stealth. We don't have the capacity to monitor all of the solar system in every direction. The human race misses tons of asteroid passes all the time. We only find out afterwards. For every 1 asteroid we do detect, there are dozens of asteroids that slip by. Especially if the asteroid has the sun behind its back as it approaches. It messes with our scanning technology. This is well documented. Now if you add Minovsky particles on top of that, then detecting something becomes much harder.
>>23921923correction, sun behind its back is actually easier to detect since it casts a shadow and reduces brightness of the sun
so are we assuming the dolos is covering itself in minovsky particles all the time, effectively cutting itself off from being able to communicate with its allies?
>>23921935This isn't even a good reply. I think you are just trolling us for replies at this point. Even Google disagrees with you. I'm dipping out of this debate. You are not honest or interesting anymore.
>>23921969They use light signals and morse code in the anime to communicate between ships. They also send Zakus to fly between ships to deliver messages.
>>23921923Those being at ambient temperature makes them waaay harder to see compared to something that has to be habitable for human beings, let alone with a big fusion reactor in it.
>>23921769Yes but that's minovsky magic jamming.Imagine omniscient sensors AI, but its precision drop to 100m instead of 1mm, and the enemies has those too, so anything you send will also be seen by the enemy, and if you fuck your math the enemy can overwhelm what you sent without loss.There's a gap between being fully aware there's warship X on this exact trajectories, and committing to an intercept and assault, knowing the targets are ALSO aware of your movements and can maneuver to prevent intercept. Which, btw, is not an option if you are already in the enemy's light-speed attack arc.The Solar System isn't a "perfect weapon" because it's cumbersome and its firing "arc" is based on the sun position.Also realistically it wouldn't be a "vaporizing burst" and more like overheating a fleet.But a Dolos just can't sneak.>>23921869>If Char and a Zeon commando group can sneak onto Luna 2, one of the Feds most guarded bases during the One Year War, with explosives then how do you expect the Feds to somehow track the Dolos when it's 300,000 miles away?Because there's a difference between a small human-sized commando and a 500m long fusion-powered warship so amazing it's like a fleet?Because maybe said commando was incredibly risky in the first place and it took more efforts than just moving toward the station to succeed?Because maybe Luna II would have been on the highest alert level if Zeon was fielding anything capable of threatening it and didn't send a picket-fleet to kill char because they knew if they did Char would detect it and pull back, wasting a picket-fleet of resources on a lone ship they can't intercept.Char tried a commando approach because if they approached with anything MS sized first, Luna II would have committed to a pre-emptive strike.Same reason Zeon didn't commit all their fleets to defend Solomon because travel time would have allowed the Federation other fleets to effortlessly capture other bases.
>>23922367>But a Dolos just can't sneak. If the Dogosse Giar and General Revil can suddenly sneak up and surprise enemies, then so can the Dolos.
>>23921923>It has nothing to do with stealth. We don't have the capacity to monitor all of the solar system in every direction.We could and DO with space debris. It's literally just data processing and far FAR easier than anything done for AI training.https://projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewardetect.php#id--Strategic_Combat_Sensors--There_Ain't_No_Stealth_In_Space--Why_Not?_Let_me_count_the_ways--But_Scanning_The_Entire_Sky_Takes_Too_Long>The human race misses tons of asteroid passes all the time.Only because we don't care and we know the statistics.Extinction level asteroids are impossibly rare, we already catalogued the worst ones, any asteroids we cover "after the fact" were too small to matter.We've had like 1 or 2 Tunguska-like asteroid breaking windows, since we have no industrial use of space the vast majority of our space satellites were considered expandable (even before Starlink), to a point only manned station matter.We do track billions of space-debris because -unlike micrometeorite- they remain in orbit and thus risk collisions every orbit.>Especially if the asteroid has the sun behind its back as it approaches. It messes with our scanning technologyFirst, orbital dynamic means they don't stay in-between for any time, even Earth-Sun Lagrange point L1 is unstable so no asteroids can remain here. Second, this is such a minority of case, this is like saying radars are defeated because the enemy have a theoretical chance of blowing every single one of them simultaneously.If you want/need fuel-efficiency, you can take week(s) to travel from LEO to a Lagrange point. You definitely cannot line up with the sun and that-one-sensor the whole time.>>23921935I don't know about "easier" but we absolutely can detect shadows of object passing in front of the sun.https://www.space.com/sun-behind-iss-photo-miguel-claro>>23921991It really was another anon. I forgot your post.
>>23922408Context matters, both "sneaked" on a vastly inferior enemies in an internal conflict were you can barely tell friend from foe, instead of the bipolar EFF vs Zeon. In Unicorn it was literally about killing one warship to kill witness.You'd have better arguments if the Solar System was only used by a small singular faction and (somehow) only operated in Low-Earth-Orbit, allowing the enemy to hide behind the horizon.
>>23922676Did you forget how Neo Zeon suddenly snuck up to the General Revil during that same battle?
>>23922746Sleeves MOBILE SUITS sneaking up on a lone isolated ship sent on a secret mission to kill witness?Aftermath is our hero ship also having to hide from the Federation (who cover crime for the Vist Foundation)?Forced to obey "terrorist sleeves" who have been making secret deals to turn colonies against the Federation?Context, context, context...Again, you can have your Dolos ""sneak up"" on a Solar System ...if you put in serious efforts.
>>23922815You keep saying all those words like it means something. The point is that Gundam sensors have range limits and can be tricked or blocked. Which happens repeatedly in the anime.
The weapon itself only really appears in a single cutscene, and then only for a few frames, so unsurprisingly I couldn't find a screencap of it; you'll just have to settle for one of the ship carrying the payload.
>>23922815Fucking SW and the Death Star
>>23922832>The pointIs that you don't understand the basic rules of Gundam enough to even come up with trickery.You would write extremely shitty episodes."muh surprise Dolos! casue minoshy magic make it invisible (but Zion can still track the Whitebaze)"Want a Dolos win against Solar System?Knowing the Federation will inevitably detect a BIG FUSION-POWERED MOBILE-FORTRESS PRIZE OF ZEON?>first, need a spy to tell Zeon the whole EFF plan>if Zeon send too many ships the Fed will pullback or use the solar system against said fleet>someone convince Ghiren his mighty Dolos can do it>send a few shitty hot balloons decoys to protect Solomos or Granada, make sure Fed destroy one>'leak' to a known Fed spy the Dolos is actually staying at home and Zeon is just trying to scare the Fed>send the real Dolos toward a debris field close enough, deploy a really hot & visible balloon before hidding in the debris>Federation scount intercept and think it always was a decoy>Wait>prepare and launch 200 MS attack the Solar System after the Fed split to assault Solomon>use those asteroid-rockets before it even deploys, finish it with MS>pull back the Dolos so its trajectory get it somewhere safe>rotate and shoot any Fed ship trying to follow, Fed can't afford to follow and will be too busy fighting a fortress without their anti-fortress weaponComing up with that plan is low-effort for me.
>>23923556Another anon already pointed out that the Solar System takes a very long time to setup and deploy. It also requires a dedicated space fleet to operate the mirrors and serious coordination between ships. The solar system is also massive and becomes a huge target. Zeon casually fired a bunch of missiles and asteroids at it and destroyed a lot of it.
For me, it's the Goldion Crusher.Let's see how well your civilization does after we blow up your sun.Simple and effective.
>>23923686So, a SD?
>>23916981I thought they were going to do pic related
>>23923556Do you have any examples of the Federation being able to track ship at hyper extreme ranges? Because from all the anime I watched, the best they can do is track colonies and some asteroid bases. They can track enemy ships, but only when enter a certain range. If Minovsky particles are dispersed, then it becomes harder. So the Federation has to send out ships on continuous patrol and also garrison ships as defense forces at some colonies.
>>23923561Look at the episode yourself.Again, the solar system was canonically minutes away from being ready when the captain in charge estimated "Zeon should be able to see us now" and Solomon assault hinged on the Fed fleet holding 15 minutes.No disagreement on the rest, it doesn't change my point, never said it was a miracle weapon.It was still capable of targeting an escaping fleet, vaporizing it minutes after detecting it, even half destroyed itself.A Dolos would have been "casually" vaporized by it unless it knew where to attack and used decoy to approach.>Zeon casuallyPreparing dozens/hundreds of rocket-asteroids and firing ALL THE MISSILES they had isn't casual. Especially since they lost.Zeon put lot of resources into their defenses., the Fed put lot of (exotic) resources in the Solar System & anti-beam gas.>>23923972Again: easy detection of anything hotter than 3°K or artificial at distance beyond Jupiter is the realistic DEFAULT.So you need to stop with that soft-SF belief that it is hard.The surprise is NOT being able to instantly recognize 1000 ships signatures and get their positions to the centimeter in minutes.As for your question: Zeon didn't find the Fed Tianem fleet which required decoys and to hide in the debris of Side 1.In the same episode they deploy the Solar System they detect a fleet launching from Granada.If the setting allowed invisible ships, you could Rod-of-God any static base with just coordinates.Minovsky JAMMING doesn't make ship undetectable. It doesn't make the heat of a nuclear reactor disappear, if it did it would show up as a big empty bubble where you expect billions of stars.What it does is make identification very hard and fuck up with unshileded electronic, effectively reducing automated combat range.>So the Federation has to send out ships on continuous patrol and also garrison ships as defense forces at some colonies.And so does Zeon.This is war.
>>23924181The problem with your argument is that if the Federation could detect ships as easily as you claim, then Pirate ships would not exist. They would have been hunted down ages ago. Yet pirates are a threat and raid civilian transports. There must be a limit to detection because Pirates are able to hide long term.
>>23924199The limit could be as simple as "the ships pirates use look similar to civilian shipping at range and we don't have the resources to get someone close enough for a thorough examination of every one".
>>23924199True. The Cima fleet survived as Bandits and Pirates for 4 years after the war ended. So detection must be limited.
Technically a superweapon in its setting.>>23924199Put aside that Gundam didn't play much the "space pirate" tropes (mercenaries now...)...my argument works and is more favorable to "space pirate" than a silly "invisible unless 100m away".Minosvky particles make identification very difficult and do NOT prevent detecting potential targets which you can then approach with a false transponder or avoid unidentifiable blob that doesn't behave like a prey.(consider the Garanciere, killing the MS sent to control it).If the only way to pirate is to approach at firing range, the moment you meet a warship you are either 100% civilian or you are fucked.Btw, the space-pirate trope has always been a forced trope.Caribbean piracy worked because ships needed no fuel, little maintenance, easy ammo, food on every island, any target you find is isolated, kill all witness, you look civilian, everything you steal can be resold...But in space? You need fuel, complex maintenance, to leave no recorded/transmitted evidence of the crime, to not be easily trackable, every spaceport asks ID, even if you could turn 100% invisible your stolen cargo has ID...Not saying you can't find an equivalent, but it will take more from politics & mercenary than free-spirited ancap.
>>23865808Honestly, nothing beats Killy's Graviton Beam Emitter. A little blocky pistol that will punch through dozens of kilometers of megastructure with each shot.
>>23925318Your argument doesn't make any sense because the AEUG was constantly able to avoid the Titans. They would escape battles and the Titans would get frustrated and have to track them down all over again. Usually with random patrols.
>>23925763the fact that the titans can keep tracking them down means it does make sense
>>23925770Yes but the tracking isn't consistent. It's a game of constant cat and mouse.
>>23925738The glory of the Macross/Yamato cannon in the package of a Walther PPk.
>>23925923>Walther PPkThat anything like Walther PPK?
>>23926967…
Posting Gargantia superweapon.>>23925763The AEUG is a political paramilitary resistance seen as heroes with supporters informing, supplying and hiding them from a fractured Federation fighting itself.Big difference from a polarized Federation vs Zeon with rare neutral colony, where each side know what they control, know what is under their control, and know that tracking bubble of minovsky jamming from their origin tell you if it's friend or foe.>>23925780Cat can smell the mouse without being at attack range. Mouse can hear the cat coming without being at attack range.Both strategize and move differently if they smell a chance or a risk.The AEUG would find the Dolos too slow & combersome to use, the Titan lured them into a killbox at Jaburo, and could have used a Solar System if the Solar Ray wasn't more Titanic.
>>23928083Not that anon but iirc the Federation can't actually tell what's inside a Minovsky jamming zone. They either don't notice the zone if it's too far away or they have to send ships inside to check things out. Communications don't actually work. They have to use blinking morse code with flashing lights on their ship, or use various signal flares to communicate over long distance.
>>23928106Of course they can't identify what is inside, but they know a big generator of particles is in there, magic particles can only do so much before it retarded.The setting simply wouldn't work with "invisible ship if beyond visual range".RADIO-comm shit the bed but LASER-comm work, even at long distance and is just a matter of power and knowing at what/where you can point it.The setting isn't actually using morse, and a computer controlling the blinking & other aspect is all you need to make it a video-datalink, just with less bandwidth than you'd like.
>>23928128>LASER-comm workLaser comms only work with direct line of site. Which means the ships must see each other and stay out in the open. This is not preferable. Secondly, lasers can jammed by environmental factors. Smoke clouds, chaff missiles, bad weather, and high temperatures mess up laser comms. Even other lasers can jam enemy lasers with laser spoofing.
>>23928083You mean Orbital Catapult. If you wanted to post a super weapon from Gargantia, use the Federations Dimensionalizer or the Hids “Death Root”.
>>23928083Where?
>>23913065>You are the one who don't understand that IRL jamming involve one vehicle saturating sensors until said sensors can't detect anything else around.This is not correct. What you're describing is barrage jamming, which is the most basic type of jamming and is common, but there are a large number of types of jamming some of which are particular to different types of sensor and produce a variety of different effects. Depending on the type of sensor and the type of countermeasure used it may or may not be true that is apparent to the operator of the sensor that jamming is happening at all, often it is, but some countermeasures just produce a single false return, or shift apparent position of a return, or produce a return that looks like the return of something else.
>>23928133Radio only allows indirect connection on a plane preferably with atmosphere and magnetic field.Laser range is much greater in space than radio.>Secondly, lasers can jammed by environmental factorsLaser comm is what we use to get around radio jamming.https://www.edrmagazine.eu/nato-trials-new-battlefield-laser-communications-as-russian-jamming-intensifiesRadio is far more susceptible to this because the receivers are naturally omnidirectional so jammed signal can overwhelm the clean ones. Creating smoke in space is difficult and on Earth cloud don't really block the way.>Even other lasers can jam enemy lasers with laser spoofing.You must be confusing with the use of laser for targeting or as LiDAR.The only way to jam laser-comm would be to be in the exact alignment between the two or to attack the source with your own laser, which kinda give away your position.Laser comm are also near impossible to intercept in practice.
>>23928432It's the most basic & common type for a reason. Yes the subtle kind of jammer exist, if you have the luxury of knowing everything about your target, including whether your target is equipped to detect it.GPS spoofing is one example and we can both detect and block those.The Minovsky jamming magic now is much more fundamental, and even less controlled. It's supposed to spread and deflect radio&light within a volume, creating signals that are inevitably distorted no matter the direction of observation.Actually, if you were trying to use one of those subtle form of jamming inside a minovsky cloud, it would also jam it.The point is that minovsky jamming prevent identification, but would inevitably be very detectable.
>>23928229As far as Gargantia is concerned, it is a superweapon.>>23928332>Where?This water sprinkler can submerge enemy ship
>>23929009Are you a bot or using AI to mess with us? We've had several anons already tell you why your plans don't work. But then you ignore those posts, and just say it will work. People have shown you direct anime examples why it won't work. Minovsky particles mess with optical scanning. It creates a distortion effect at long distances. That's why you can't just aim one big communications laser from Earth to Side 3. You will miss the target. Especially in areas with large battles or jamming. And Minovsky particles aren't only used during battle conditions. Ships regularly give off Minovsky particles from their main reactor as part of normal operation. So you will have regular amounts of Minovsky particles particles floating around high traffic areas and colonies. But the military discovered that dumping a ton of Minovsky particles at once from their reactor jams everything even more. Minovsky particles are a part of everyday life. That's why everything is designed a certain way. Electronics need to be bulky because they need to be shielded from Minovsky interference. Minovsky particles mess with unshielded electronics.So no cell phones, no smart phones, and no iPads.(At least until Hathaway ignored lore to make things look "cool" and modern according to the staff designer interviews)
>>23929031Yes, but the shit the Alliance and Hids were throwing around were fucking with physics at the long end. The water system wasn’t cooling, it was a shockwave buffer iirc
>>23929267>That's why you can't just aim one big communications laser from Earth to Side 3.Mostly you can't do that because the moon is in the way.
>>23929267>>23929402I think Gundam uses a bunch of relays and satellites that bounce the laser over long distances. Apparently long distance calls aren't easy either. They can be done but the way characters talk about long distance calls, they take a bit of effort and arranging ahead of time. I guess they gotta get all the satellites in position.
>>23929434Could just be a bandwidth thing where you need a lot of bits for error correction so it's expensive.
>>23929441Aome characters expressed annoyance with the idea of a long distance calling. It's so inconvenient that characters would rather meet in person than dealing with arranging a long distance call. So something must be weird with the technology. I guess the time zone difference must play a role too. It might be night on earth but middle of the day on a colony.
>>23929267>Are you a bot or using AI to mess with us?Are you a troll posturing and gaslighting as a voice of reason? Go ahead and quote the arguments that supposedly refute whatever you think is the point here since the Laser comm one is recent >>23928128 and the other was about magic particle not making ship invisible, just very hard to identify and position precisely.>Minovsky particles mess with optical scanning. It creates a distortion effect at long distances.First, Minovsky mess with radio far more than light, radars get it far worse because as SF goes, it's what you need to disable first to force visual range battle.Second, distortions don't mean "it's a 100% reflecting mirror", that's why "battle level M density" make things blurry not invisible.>That's why you can't just aim one big communications laser from Earth to Side 3Beside that Side 3 Lagrange orbit would make it frequently visible from Earth... I wonder why you even bring this up since RADIO cannot communicate through the moon without relay either.Sure didn't prevent Zeon wordwide Ghiren speech LIVE.And again RADIO GET IT WORSE, whereas it's hard to corrupt laser-comm data, if ANY focused light go through it's only a matter of sacrificing bandwidth.>So no cell phones, no smart phones, and no iPads.Beside that MSG was made in 1979 and you should admit artist draw what they and the public know ...they did have those, ep 13 Amuro watch receiving a call and answering while the WB is in combat.Military equipment are also not consumers crap.Haro is one very shielded AI, easily outdo a lot of our best robots in navigation alone.>HathawayIf it triggers you, just remember tech evolved since the OYW. Shielding is costly, not impossible, a working solution is to do the computations twice and compare.Lastly writers hate easy comm because it complicates plots a lot.
>>23929357That's still used as a superweapon from the point of view of Earth inhabitant, it doesn't matter if they are small game in the grand game. Who know what aliens civilization would have in that setting.And yes the water is a blast wall. It really is a nice tidbit because shockwave from a projectile reaching hypersonic speed this low in the atmosphere would easily break stuff.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelyabinsk_meteorBonus point for using for watering and hide its original purpose.
>>23929434>>23929441>>23929451Reminder that between Earth and the Moon there's a light-lag around 4 seconds, so even with the best laser-comm, it would be terribly annoying to deal with in conversations.
>>23930108>If it triggers you, just remember tech evolved since the OYW. Shielding is costly, not impossible, a working solution is to do the computations twice and compare. ??? Gundam F91 goes back to normal bulky electronics. So clearly Hathaway just ignored the lore of UC to make it look cool.
>>23930108>magic particle not making ship invisibleI mean that's what Minovsky Particles do. They blind long range sensors. You literally have to use mobile suits and scout ships to find them. You have to fly super close. It's very much like World War 2 in space.
>>23930112The girls’ asses are also super weapons
>>23930126>F91Instead the MS get miniaturized>>23930162It's jamming, not stealth. Their sensors and radars can see volumes of particles screwing up the background light, but cannot identify what is inside.
>>23930208How so?
I wish for an anime centered around few Metal Gear sized mecha-fortress, and not the humanoid stuff.But I know studios don't know how to animate shit anymore, nor make a 3D model that isn't a shiny toy in disguise.And since they don't want to bother with the battlefield, every mecha fly or hover at high speed on a convenient flat desert.
>>23933630That's A LOT of guns. I don't know what this thing is, but has it ever unleashed a full barrage with all guns firing?
>>23933946It's from the show Heavy Object. Watch it. It's about slow moving fortresses with tons of guns because regular robots and jets and tanks don't work anymore.It's funny plus of course hot chicks
>>23933975obligatory women heavy object joke
>>23931605Watch the shake
>>23935049That's not even damaging/destructive.
>>23935301Depends on your point of view
Metal Gear are technically superweapons.
>>23935457Explain.
>>23936445I was hoping you could.
>>23936451You seem to have mistaken me for a mind reader.
>>23936083Is gear suddenly an uncountable noun?
>>23938716Why do you think they pronounce it >"Metal ...Gear"
>>23937403This is 4Chan. Everyone is right when they are wrong
I can't believe these haven't been posted yet. Nor can I believe how sparse the selection was for images depicting both.
>>23941245Probably because it's hard to call superweapon something that can be destroyed by a fucking torpedo or by any FTL manned torpedo.
>>23941490Since when are superweapons required to have more than 1 HP? what matters is the scale of the damage, not the sustainability
>>23941517True but if we didn't watch it destroy a planet you wouldn't know it's a superweapon.
>>23925738I like the wrist gun from...Aposimz? Something like that. Enemy constantly thinking they have it figured out then nope.
>>23941490Why does everyone flip their shit on this? RKKVs are a staple of sci fi.
>>23941713Actually we would since it was mentioned in the opening crawl.
>>23942295It shit on the little self-consistency the setting had in the first place. Which is impressive given the low standard.Destroying the Death Star was cheesy but was still only possible because they obtained the plans of the Death Star.But the way it was shown in the movie is akin to "ooops the enemy forgot to shield itself against a very easy attack".RKKV are rarely ever used in SF because it's not visually special. It's just another planet erasing impact.Railgun projectiles that do moderate damage but go through your armor like butter, now that more impressive.
>>23943224Lensmen and most classics disagree
>>23943240You mean classics describing RKKV as mundane missiles, adding atomic or tachyon in front of every noun.
I'll take the Nazi saucerhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdpGmA73Uhchttps://youtu.be/e4tDAcvxWB0?t=15
>>23943283Or a Obliterateor from Dune, Exterminatus from WH40K
>>23943299If she showed her poon, there would have been no conflict whatsoever
>>23923903
