Was Gelgoog too pricey to develop? It's strange because it one of the best OYW mobile suits but Earth Federation doesn't reverse engineers the captured Gelgoog and develop their own Gelgoog
>>23980519>>23980519It's strange because it one of the best OYW mobile suits but Earth Federation doesn't reverse engineers the captured Gelgoog and develop their own GelgoogI mean...they DID do that, just with a better Gelgoog.
>>23980519What's the point of making more Gelgoog when they already had some better in the same year?
>>23980519The Gelgoog's primary innovation was the equipping of a mass production mobile suit with a beam rifle. Effectively, the rest of the suit just exists to carry and power that one weapon.The Federation was actually ahead in this one specific area of mobile suit development, with the Gundam and later some GM variants possessing beam rifles. Zeon was ahead in most areas of MS tech, but the Federation was better in a few places such as beam weaponry, terrain interoperability, parts standardisation (at least until Zeon's United Maintenance Plan), and probably a couple others I'm forgetting.
>>23980822>and later some GM variants possessing beam rifles.Some standard GMs from the start had beam rifles.
>>23980822Doesn't the gelgoog also had the backpack thing?Like type C and B with the cannon and High mobility backpacks. That where later adopted for the titans (at least in the advance of zeta continuity)
>>23980838I think this is just an error considering it's the first time we see a GM fighting iirc. Maybe the design for the beam spray gun wasn't quite done yet, or someone just plain fucked up.
>>23980519More like they had too little of them and instead of having veteran pilots, they had newbies pilot them (because most of said veterans were dead).
>>23980973Correct, one thing that set the Gelgoog apart was its modular backpack techn (which ironically started out of necessity as engineers weren't sure the beam rifle would be completed in time.) Similarly, the sub-generators in its forearms could be swapped out for beam emitters seen in late variants like the Marine and Jager
>>23980822Gelgoog's purpose was mostly to replace Zaku since they were struggling to catch up with the overwhelming forces of GM. Higher performance, better loadout and superior to literally any grunts Zeon had prior. But as the other anon mentioned above, by the time Gelgoog rolled out, it was too late. Too many good soldiers died and too many seasoned GM pilots to fight againts.
>>23980519Gelgoog was basically an upgunned generic Zeon mobile suit for general use. The answer is no. It is more like, it came too late to matter. 1000 gelgoogs vs 100,000 gms is not gonna do anything. Based on the whole analogy as the One Year War being like WW2, the issue is not the technology, but the fact that Zeon is isolated and does not have the manufacturing or resource base to beat the Feds in a drawn out war. Case in point, Feds start with the Ball, end with the GM. That's technological progression. Zeon starts with the Zaku ends with the Oggo. That's resource starvation. Though by the end of the war, it's heavilly implied they lost too many skilled pilots, and were sending out gelgoogs with nobody pilots, much like how the Gundam started. It's poetic, though I don't think that was intended by the writers.
>>23981119arguably. The main purpose of the GM was to be something the feds can spam. They did. Zaku was similar for Zeon, but ultimately Zeon could not spam it enough. Same with tanks, infantry, and airplanes.
>>23980996no this lore accurate. Beam spray gun was built to be a cheaper "just as good". Absolutely GMs could use the beam rifle, as it used E-Caps, which were rechargeable capacitors. Very technically, E-Caps don't need an reactor of any power to recharge, but having a smaller reactor means longer charge time. Moot point though, GMs are 1250 kw vs Gundam 1380 kw. There is negligible difference. Beam spray gun is just cheaper. Absolutely guarantee some GMs were issued these, we never see them though.
>>23981155Obviously besides Jaburo.
>>23981156Probably some early GM pilot got to keep one either because logistics were fucked or because he made ace status and aces in Gundam get whatever they want. Besides the GM and Gundam Ground Types also got what are essentially streamlined Gundam beam rifles.
>>23981105actually if we take the gelgoog ground type as cannon. it was already built into the vanilla gelgoog, pilots wheren't seasoned enough to equip it.
>>23981105The Marine type had a machine gun forearm and not a beam gun, didn't it? here's a list shamelessly stolen from a really old forum postMS-14A- jet thrustersMS-14B- jet thrustersMS-14C- jet thrusters with the option of replacing them with 3-tube rocket launchers (either arm can use them, but I don't know if both arms can have them at the same time, especially since once I read that the small shield used by this Gelgoog was supposed to be some sort of counterweight for the Rocket Launcher mounted on the other arm)MS-14D- armed buster(left forearm only)MS-14F- 110mm machinecannonsMS-14Fs- 110mm machinecannonsMS-14G- the profile says that it has an arm gatling gun and an arm launcher. I haven't played Rise From the Ashes so I'm not sure if they are supposed to be on the forearms. The one I know is the one from the Lost Chronicles manga, which didn't seem to have either of those weapons.MS-14J- grenade launchersMS-14Jg- beam spot gunsMS-14S- jet thrustersMS-14S (Char Custom in CDA)- 110mm machinecannon on right forearm and jet thruster on left forearm.>>23981463Well it just kinda goes to show that the C type is basically just an A type with added backpack, and in the exact same way the ground type is just the A type model but with a different backpack
The gelgoog was also zeon reacting way too slow for what was the now and forever stock mobile suit meta: a beam weapon and a shield. Characters in Zeta react to deploying without a shield as very risky and most mobile suits without them usually have very thick armor, loads of thrusters, or both. And then you look back and there's all these zeon suits fighting GMs that can tank a few of their hits and they can't tank anything in return.
>>23981151Zeon could technically spam more cheap Zaku 1 if scrapping bottom of the barrel was the key to victory. However, it was harder to spam actual good pilots when there was no time left to train more of them.
>>23981567The problem with that is the zaku 1 and 2 were genuinely outdated by the end. They were designed for ship fighting, not mobile suit combat. At best they could've mass produced the dom or the himo zaku which was much better but still not really an anti-mobile suit design.
>>23981580>zaku 1 and 2 were genuinely outdated by the endThese outdated machines were the reason why Zeon lost so many seasoned pilots by the end of the war. And i doubt Gelgoog's numbers in total were any less than GM, however Zeon had nothing left than rookies at that point so they were fighting an uphill battle. If Gelgoogs were made like 5 months earlier, they would have a higher chance to win.
Was there a reason Feddies choose Zaku to make Hi-Zack instead of Hi-Goog or something?
>>23981647Without actually reading any deep lore books, it always seemed like it probably went like this to me.1. Most of the former Zeon engineers, seeing that the new Republic of Zeon is practically a disarmed state and REALLY not wanting to live on Axis, sign up with Anaheim or the Federation for work2. The Federation puts in an order for a new cheap, all-purpose mass production suit3. Anaheim pass these instructions onto the engineers4. The engineers hear this and think "Oh, so you want a Zaku. One modernised Zaku coming right up."5. The Hizack has some Federation elements like the beam rifle, the chest area, I think the backpack, as a result of these former Zeon engineers starting to implement Feddie innovations into their work
>>23981647>Hi-GoogThat sounds too much like Hygogg so they would've gotten into legal trouble with Zimmad
>>23981647Because Hizack is not a direct upgrade to Zaku II, it is just a homage. Technology-wise, it is more like a GM. For Gelgoog, they made Galbaldy Beta's head to resemble Gelgoog but the MS's in it's entirely is closer to Gyan.
>>23981690that's okay they own zimmad
>>23981647The gunpla manuals generally describe it as an attempt by the EFF to incorporate Zeon knowledge into EF designs. The HGUC manual mentioned the green colour scheme is often used for aggressor units during training.
>>23980822Pretty much this. I believe it is stated many times in technical documents that they could have released the Gelgoog's much earlier in the war, but they were so insistent on making them carry beam weapons, they were delayed far too long. And it's not like they could just capture and reverse engineer things like in later Gundam series... Since the only thing with a beam rifle for most of the war was the Gundam... So they had to figure it out themselves from scratch. And as mentioned by another, the ZAKU II was not really designed for vs MS combat, but could do it. While the Gelgoog certainly was... The specs of the basic Gelgoog were not actually that great as people think, especially in comparison to things like the later GMII. They say it could "rival" the Gundam... Which might be true, but the Gundam wasn't that actually that high spec and relied on its armor and pilot for a lot. Even the GM comes close to the Gundam in some aspects.I think that is the biggest misconception about the OYW... The compact Beam Rifle and Beam Sabers were about the biggest leap in technology. MS technology did not take nearly that big of a leap. The Gundam wasn't THAT much more advanced. It just had better armor, beam weapons and a wonder kid piloting it, while being designed for direct MS vs MS combat.
>>23980519>Was Gelgoog too pricey to develop?No. It just was delayed too long. Databooks say if it came 2 weeks earlier, then Zeon could have equipped all their troops with Gelgoogs and won the war.>It's strange because it one of the best OYW mobile suits but Earth Federation doesn't reverse engineers the captured Gelgoog and develop their own GelgoogThe Federation did after the war was over.
>>23981647 there are more leftover zakus factories that can be retooled than gelgoog factories
>>23980822>The Federation was actually ahead in this one specific area of mobile suit development, with the Gundam and later some GM variants possessing beam rifles.The Federation was only ahead in this aspect because they had no other way to defeat Zeon mobile suits without beam weapons. They were too far behind in other aspects of mobile suits development. Imagine if the Federation made the GM but it only could use machine guns, bazookas, and heat sabers. The Federation would have gotten curb stomped at the Battle of Odessa and Solomon. >parts standardisationQuestionable. Especially with all those super special snowflake GMs and their high performance.
>>23982211their bazookas were bigger and better than zeonsfed machine guns were fine too. so fine that in origin they retconned the 100mm machine gun to be used by both sides of the war since yashima heavy manufacturing made them for both bugus and ground gundams>Imagine if the Federation made the GM but it only could use machine guns, bazookas, and heat sabers. The Federation would have gotten curb stomped at the Battle of Odessa and Solomon.modern media got you covered, since ms igloo and manga and all that shit love to replace the """standard""" beam spray gun with machine guns and bazookas instead
>>23982211>The Federation was only ahead in this aspect because they had no other way to defeat Zeon mobile suits without beam weapons. They were too far behind in other aspects of mobile suits development.Behind, maybe, but they stuck to a basic design and just mas produced it until Zeon could take no more. It was a Quantity over Quality fight in the end once they got mass producible MS.>Imagine if the Federation made the GM but it only could use machine guns, bazookas, and heat sabers. The Federation would have gotten curb stomped at the Battle of Odessa and Solomon. Debatable. The mass production numbers of the GM's was a big part of their strategy, and the Beam Spray gun was not all that great to begin with, while the beam saber was certainly superior to heat weapons. Might the Federation have a higher mortality rate than they did? Possibly. Again, this is debatable since their equipment itself never played as big of a part as simply overwhelming number of units.>Questionable. Especially with all those super special snowflake GMs and their high performance.To be fair, all that shit was done after the series was over for extra flavor and to sell more model kits... Ad even then most of those were still based on the basic GM for parts and only added more. But if you follow the lore of the TV series and/or 3 movies, in which they won the OYW, there was only the GM. And that was it.Zeon was the one putting out special MS and MA's that was causing them production issues.
>>23982148GMII was like 5 years apart so comparing a OYW relic to a Zeta era MS is not fair. That is like saying Zeta Gundam is not that good compares to Unicorn.
>>23982223>But if you follow the lore of the TV series and/or 3 movies, in which they won the OYW, there was only the GM. And that was it. Diff anon here but that's the way it SHOULD be. So sick of these endless GM variants that make no sense. You can't claim superior performance but then claim it's same GM parts. A major reason Zeon lost the war was because they made too many different mobile suits with endless custom variations. It was a logistics and resupply nightmare.
>>23982281Honestly considering that the eff had a preference over tanks I can see models like the gm cannon and mp guncannon existing
>>23981647>Hi-GoogThat's the Galbaldy. But The thing is that Zeta upgrades are more incremental now. Each new Zeta suit is only slightly better or moderately better than the previous suit. It's completely the opposite of the One Year War where a new mobile suit suddenly changes the momentum of the entire war. So even with HiZacks and Gabaldies, the Titans can't really dominate AEUG suits like Nemo and Rick Dias.
>>23982292Wasn't the barzam just the gelgoog again?>High spec mobile for mass production >Couldn't make more due to lack of time>Probably would have won if they made it early
>>23982281>you can't claim superior performance but then claim it's same GM partsisn't this the same shit as united maintenance? gelgoog jager having superior performance but also still compatibility with zaku f2\fz and all the rest?
>>23982223>Behind, maybe, but they stuck to a basic design and just mas produced it until Zeon could take no more. It was a Quantity over Quality fight in the end once they got mass producible MS. I don't really believe that since the anime makes such a big deal about how game changing beam weapons were on mobile suits. If Zeon deployed beam weapon equipped MS sooner, then the war might have turned out differently.
>>23982306Zeon couldn't make the Gelgoog sooner because they needed to invent new technology.in a short amount of time.The Titans were different. The tech was available. They could have made the Barzam sooner. But different factions and pilots within the Titans couldn't agree on what they wanted for their next mass produced mobile suit. You had like 10 different options until they settled on the Barzam. But they waited until like episode 45 and by then it was too late.
>>23980822Most GMs didn't have beam weapons if you go by setting books and shit. It was the Learning Computer that made the difference. Even if the GMs didn't equip a full on learning computer they had computers capable of loading the data and recreating movements from the Gundam's. And that continues in the future. Like in Sentinel the logic bomb New Dessides uses is loaded into the Nero's mass produced learning computer because the Instructor Corps that formed New Dessides trained and produced the learning computer data for all Federation mass produced MS.
>>23982211>>23982223The federation realizing everyone should have a shield + it turning out to be the only real counter to beam weapons later was a good move, too. The federation came out the gate with almost every unit equipped with shields as standard while zeon was mostly repurposing them out of zaku shoulder armor, looting them, or making them custom per unit up until very late in the war.The RX-78 was basically the first mobile suit designed for anti-mobile suit combat and the GM learned from it, while zeon were trying to counter it. This is part of why it's obnoxious when people complain about the rx-78 being overpowered. It's like the very first MBT rolling out to fight WW1 trench clearing tanks.
>>23982306I think Titans lost because the bad guys had to lose. Their Marasai were update to date technology. In retrospect, Titans were a bunch of aggressive corrupt cops and they had to fight againts the government.
>>23982281>A major reason Zeon lost the war was because they made too many different mobile suits with endless custom variations. It was a logistics and resupply nightmare.No? There were 2 periods of GM, the rollout version that was too weak and the one with improvements from RX78-2 data. Even in the context of the anime alone, GM needed to get a better version of themselves or else nothing would change. Zeon was just playing the same game.
>>23982577The Titans lost due to infighting and Sirocco trying to make his power play. Which actually is kind of how Zeon lost as well
>>23983303And those GM's were either mechanically identical or 90% + the same parts. Even if we include the MSV and side story designs... Their basic parts were all mostly interchangeable. Maybe some loss in functionality, but generally still workable.And that is what the key thing was, they were all still GM's.For most of the OYW, Zeon's MS were barely compatible between even different variants of the same MS... But basically, a Gouf was not a Zaku. (NO ZAKU!). A Dom was not a Zaku. A Gyan was not a Zaku. A Gelgoog was not a Zaku.All these iconic Zeon MS were their own projects and basically had proprietary parts. You could not fix any of them with parts from a different type of MS. And The United Maintenance Plan came way too late, with little resources to use.They were not playing the same game at all.
>>23983379You seem to forget that Federation was investing in bunch of trashy projects like Guncannon, Guntank and numerous Gundam models before RX78-2, the first good mobile suit from their side officially rolled out. That's just how arm race goes, you don't stick with one thing and hope it gets the job done first try.
>>23983303>>A major reason Zeon lost the war was because they made too many different mobile suits with endless custom variations. It was a logistics and resupply nightmare. >No? There were 2 periods of GM, the rollout version that was too weak and the one with improvements from RX78-2 data. Even in the context of the anime alone, GM needed to get a better version of themselves or else nothing would change. Zeon was just playing the same game.What does this answer have to do with the post you are replying to? The post you quoted was talking about Zeon and your reply is about GMs.
>>23983431Hahaha, no, I didn't forget. Those other types of units remained proto-types and were not mass produced in the numbers the GM's were. They were barely on the battlefield in comparison to the normal GM or Zeon units.And even then, they still shared numerous parts. Everything the Feddies made was based on basic designs. The MP Guncannons and Guntanks still had a lot in common with parts. That is the whole POINT of the Feddie MS program. They had the resources and a solid building/maintenance plan before they started mass producing anything. Zeon let a bunch of rogue designers design whatever they wanted without sharing of ideas or plans... Leading to massive issues when trying to fix or replace things.It really just goes to show how bad Zeon's inept logistics were, that one ship and 3 proto-types decimated some of their best aces and became their focus for so long that the Feddies were able to build the GM's in mass numbers and then overwhelm them with sheer numbers of basic units.The two sides had completely different design philosophies at the start of their projects. This isn't debatable, it is lore fact.Do stories and MSV have it that both sides have many different types of units in the end? Yes. But from the start, all the feddie designs were built with a universal concept of shared parts and logistics. No matter how high spec the MSV GM's might be. The parts used were either interchangeable, or easily modified to be used.Zeon did not get that concept until after the war started and they were already knee deep in logistical problems.
>>23983453You wrote a longass text for your schizo headcanon. Zeon lost because they were the bad guys, simple as that. Federation had a bunch of giant tanks prior to the creation of Guntank and GM themselves were derivatives of RX78-2. They spent just as much money, if not more than Zeon. And by the time of Zeta, they made more shit like Hizack, Nemo, Marasai, GM II and a brand new Gundam model. If you think military is a penny pinching contest then we would still using horses instead of armored cars.
>>23983453It would be pointless for Zeon to have a significantly more efficient production line and make thousands of extra Zakus because their most limiting factor was pilots, not machines or resources. Side 3 has a population of only some 150 million and they're fighting the whole world - I doubt many citizens of the EF were willing to fight for Zeon, the only examples I recall from the original are General Elran, Miharu, and Lalah. Elran was a particularly corrupt higher-up dickhead, Miharu turned back to the Federation, and Lalah was moreso on Char's side than anything.They've got all these brand new Gelgoogs at A Baoa Qu and have been forced to throw students into the cockpits because there's nobody else left.Zeon had a big tech lead and had spent more time preparing for the war, but were otherwise thoroughly outmatched. Every day the war went on was a small defeat for them.
>>23981071It didn't help that Zeon's top aces at that point were either dead or pulled from the frontlines by Zabi factionalism. Pic very much related
>>23984034Revenge of Ide?
>>23983946Anaheim made the Nemo and Marasai for the AEUG. Even according to the old gunpla manual and databook lore. And the Hizack was a mishmash of Feddie and Zeon parts because the Federation didn't want to let captured manufacturing facilities and engineers in places like ABQ and Pezun go to waste. It was basically made for the same reason as the Galbady Beta, except they turned it into a frankenstein instead of just modifying a solid design.>>23984000>because there's nobody else left.That's not entirely correct. Kycilia left half her fleet on Granada, against Gihren's orders to bring her forces to ABQ, and Side 3 still had a dedicated defense fleet. Fresh pilots were just what they had to hold the frontline at the moment, but Zeon wasn't throwing all their resources at A Baoa Qu, which is why Kycilia thinks if she escapes she can stalemate the Federation. And the Federation is generally considered to be exhausted after ABQ as well. The Solar Ray destroyed 1/3 of their entire space force, and many more were damaged or under repair. The actual number of Federation crafts that could continue fighting immediately weren't high, and they lost most of their military leadership at Solomon and ABQ. Even the series notes the war ended on an armistice between the Federation and Bakharo's new republic, rather than a formal surrender.
>>23984043>Even the series notes the war ended on an armistice between the Federation and Bakharo's new republic, rather than a formal surrender.Yes but it's clear the Republic of Zeon got the losing end of that deal. And the Titans blatantly ignore the armistice since they freely enter Side 3 and ignore any boundaries. The Federation politicians also doesn't punish the Titans for ignoring the armistice. So they clearly don't respect Side 3 anymore - even if they still have some leftover military power.
>>23984038>>23984034
Can you imagine what it was like being a saberfish, manta pilot or t61 crew that survived the early OYW. You got to witness the colony drop as well as see your buds die to zaku IIs like maggots under a blowtorch.It must have been cathartic working your way up to pilot a GM and getting shipped to Ao Baoa Qu and expecting crazy wunderwaffe only to run into Oggos and Zaku Is, maybe with a Dom and Goog here and there. No wonder a lot of them joined the titans. It must have been a kick pushing spacenoid scum around with your Hizack.
>>23986159Solomon was really the only major battle where the Federation got an overwhelming advantage, and even that was temporarily swept away when the Big Zam blitzed ahead and killed one of the Federations High Admirals. A.Baoa.Qu was an absolute clusterfuck for both sides, though later depictions like IGLOO portray the Federation as having the advantage even after losing a third of their fleet. A shame a lot of the Titans aligners never really got a proper fight with Zeon, only Zeon Deikun advocating Federals.
>>23986159Anyone that survived combat in a Saberfish long enough to get a GM probably made it through the whole war, barring something basically indiscriminate like getting blasted by Lalah, the Big Zam, or the Solar Ray. It would train your survival instincts like basically nothing else to go through a disadvantage like that and come out the other side on a basically even playing field against a bunch of rookie Zeom pilots.I know a few of them got killed later on like Sleggar but in general those guys must have done just fine at Solomon and ABQ.
>>23986220I've been reading a lot of the supplementary materials and manga. Apparently Zeon still could have won the Battle of Solomon. The Federation didn't really have a decisive numbers advantage over Solomon or the Zeon space fleets. Solomon was extremely well defended and the Dozle's Zeon forces were dug in and very well defended. However Zeon space fleets refused to work together. Dozle said he could repel the Federation forces on his own (assuming the Federation solar system laser weapon didn't exist), but Dozle would take unnecessary losses to his fleet. Which is why he's so pissed off at Kycillia and Giren. He knows they could send reinforcements and make this battle a lot easier. But Kycillia and Giren want to weaken Dozle's fleet and make his faction weaker. So only Kycillia and Giren would can fight for leadership. Dozle thinks the political infighting is stupid and he has no interest in fighting for leadership, but the other Zabis don't trust him. Even after the Federation used the Solar System weapon on Solomon, the Zeon defenders still had a chance but Dozle didn't want to see his troops get nearly destroyed just to hold onto Solomon. So he ordered a retreat and held off the Federation with the Big Zam. He wanted his troops to survive and return for revenge later on.
>>23986341>here's how Zeon can still winbreh.... they lostmove on it's over go home
>>23986403If added depth to the story is too much for you, then don't bother posting here. You can go the children's section of the library. That's more your speed.
>>23986424I love depth depth in the form of MS Era got me into GundamI have a legit Delaz Fleet flag irls and flew it at cons taping it to my motel window to announce FEDDIES KEEP MOVING THIS IS A ZEONIC NEIGHBORHOOD my name is in no small part of how once upon a time, probably twenty years ago, in an argument here I got legit mad that it's unfair to conflate Gihren's eugenics policies as indicative of Zeon at large so as not to besmirch them, since then I have kept Space Politics close to my breast to remind me that getting legit heated over a cartoon is probably a bad ideaZeon lost. They mostly lose always outside of some AKSHULLY like G-Savior or other bullshit
>>23986438you did not tape a fantasy Nazi flag to your motel window dorkly just because you're one of the geriatrics that is no license to lie
>>23986449>you did not tape a fantasy Nazi flag to your motel window dorklyit was a different timewe could pretend to be space nazis and nobody cared
>>23986449You vastly underestimate the dumb shit people have done at cons.
>>23986424that level of depth is stale as fuck, have you been under a rock since 1980? you're pissing in the same unsanitized toilet as the previous generations of gundamfags and thinking it's an enriching experience to consider those outcomes like thoughts that haven't bounced through millions of heads nearly as hollow
>>23986438Dorkly is that coleslaw on that fucking burger?
>>23986458Christ, sauerkraut, not coleslaw. It's too hot.
>>23986438>Zeon lost. Zeon lost. But the Federation did not beat them.
>>23986438You think a Zeon flag makes you superior? I've spent tens of thousands of dollars on Zeon Gunpla models and figures over my life. Don't talk to me about supporting Zeon. >Gihren's eugenics policies as indicative of Zeon at large so as not to besmirch themHe doesn't have eugenics policies. He had immigration policies. He wants to force people off Earth and into space. Please look up what Eugenics means next time.
>>23986486He wants to force people he doesn't like to not be alive. He then goes on that this should be the entire Earth system and is compared to Hitler. It is definitely not an immigration policy.
>>23986341I genuinely wonder if the Japanese recognize the parallels between Zeon and the Imperial Japanese Military. The constant factional infighting is extremely similar to Japan during WW2 with the factional rivalries between the branches of the military. Tomino seems to dial it up to a crazy level though. Or have Japanese history books been so suppressed that Japan doewn't know their own history from between 1930 to 1945. I've been told by other anons that visiting Japanese historical sites is heavily censored. Basically it says >We were minding our business between 1930 and 1945, but then America dropped two nukes on us. It's very sad. Never forget how bad war is. :(>>23986257>basically even playing field against a bunch of rookie Zeom pilots. I think this situation is overstated. The Federation was filled with both cowards and traitors. Remember a lot of cities defected to Zeon when they invaded the Earth. There were probably a lot of deserters too in the Federation military. I suspect a lot of the pilots during the final battles were fresh raw recruits. Mostly teens.
>>23986403tbf there needs to be some explanation as to how they lost the war partly due to running out of viable soldiers but then also there was enough of them left to fight wars of aggression for the next few decades. You can't turn over a stone without finding another group of nu-zeonites with their cool mobile armor. Having many of them fracturing and split off before the big fight because everyone in charge had conflicting endgame goals and then they all died, leaving them headless, is pretty reasonable and in character.Even neo-zeon alone is a pretty massive force, and then there's loads of other animation canon zeon survivor forces before you ever even think of touching side stories. There's just too many for there to be no explanation of how so many survived and regrouped while staying armed.
>>23986498>He wants to force people he doesn't like to not be alive.No. He wants to make humanity worthy of being alive by forcing them into space (and being under Zabi control). He disdains people who hide on Earth and refuse to leave. If Gihren supported eugenics, then he would have just nuked Earth or dropped a couple asteroids and ended it. Then sterilize the survivors. Gihren wants control of all people in space. The Hitler comparison was Degwin comparing Gihren's ambition to Hitler's ambition. Both overreached, overextended themselves and ultimately loss. Degwin says the Hitler comparison when Gihren brags about being sure of victory. It's about the delusion and not being realistic about their chances of victory.
>>23986507Your memory of the scene is substantially less accurate than you believe it to be. The Hitler comparison, for instance, is first made after Gihren describes his post victory plans of culling the excessively large (and thus hard to control) population. He brags about certain victory later.
>>23986522>The Hitler comparison, for instance, is first made after Gihren describes his post victory plans of culling the excessively large (and thus hard to control) population.The Hitler comparison is Degwin pointing out that Gihren assumes victory is a given and that Gihren is getting ahead of himself. And forced emigration off Earth does not equal eugenics.
>>23986522>>23986533The important detail is that tomino thinks this is a good thing, or at least a radical but potentially necessary move.That tomino both explicitly portrays a character as being like hitler but also says that he's probably got a point is vital to understanding tomino.
>>23986424>You can go the children's section of the library. That's more your speed.bruh we're talking about a 50 year old children's cartoon designed to sell plastic toys on a mongolian basket weaving forum>>23986503Zeon (Side 3's) population is said to have been about 150 million pre-OYW. Side 3 was mostly untouched by the war, while 5-8 BILLION people died through the rest of the Earth sphere. We're also talking about a civilization that has casual fusion generators in machines that can he shat out of a factory in single digit weeks, possibly days (Zeon being able to field dozens of unique prototype one-offs within the last 3 months of the OYW). A faction like Neo Zeon being "strong" wouldn't necessarily have them being large when a single beam-equipped mobile suit is enough to threaten a colony of millions of people. If the colony laser hadn't been fired early, if the Gelgoog had been deployed 2 weeks earlier, if Char hadn't betrayed Garma, if one of the Zaku pilots had randomly hit Amuro in the first episode, ect...Zeon could've won. Seig Zeon
>>23986543>children's cartoon It's been 50 years and you still haven't learned that Tomino uses cartoons as a Trojan horse for a deeper and more fulfilling story? >Zeon (Side 3's) population is said to have been about 150 million pre-OYWPretty sure this is wildly inaccurate. UC Earth's population was 15 billion and half were forced to space. That's about 8 billion people in space divided among 6 Sides. So bare minimum, 1.3 billion people live in Side 3.
>>23986543It's less about the Gundam and more about the setting itself. Zeon has control of about half the planet and are really dug in. So even if you want to counter attack and push Zeon off the planet, it would take more than w to 3 months like it's shown in the anime. That type of campaign would take years. Especially with Minovsky particles jamming long range attacks and communicatio. It would require almost brutal World War 1 sieges with massive armies slowing slamming into each other. It would take 2 or 3 years to do it. The rapid pace of the Federation counterattack is what throws a lot of fans off.
>>23986543I don't even care about zeon having a chance or not, it's just kind of made obvious that way, way more survived the OYW then could've been reasonable if the final fight was actually made up of all their available forces and the survivors were the ones who fled. Coming up with perfectly reasonable stuff like kcyllia having a backup plan of loyal forces that was both a treacherous move and unfortunately timed, and it still wouldn't be enough to stop the inevitable, makes sense and also still fits the tone.Basically if you take original gundam purely as its own thing, no MSV, no zeta, etc I could see it being an unneeded retcon, but the second you want to expand the universe with even just the sequels then something like this seems necessary. It's like how they keep pumping up the numbers of how many people were even there, or introducing mobile suits earlier. They really need to cram things in because the "one year war" is such a bullshit time frame to work with lol
>>23986543>bruh we're talking about a 50 year old children's cartoonCan you please stop lying. We both know that isn't true.
>>23986544>Pretty sure this is wildly inaccurate. UC Earth's population was 15 billion and half were forced to space. That's about 8 billion people in space divided among 6 Sides. So bare minimum, 1.3 billion people live in Side 3.iirc Side 3 has been specifically said to have about 150 million people. There's no reason for the population to be evenly distributed across all the colonies and Earth>>23986571>It's less about the Gundam and more about the setting itself. Zeon has control of about half the planet and are really dug in. So even if you want to counter attack and push Zeon off the planet, it would take more than w to 3 months like it's shown in the anime. That type of campaign would take years. Especially with Minovsky particles jamming long range attacks and communicatio. It would require almost brutal World War 1 sieges with massive armies slowing slamming into each other. It would take 2 or 3 years to do it. The rapid pace of the Federation counterattack is what throws a lot of fans off.Oh I fully agree. Given the scale of the war and the rapid pace that new units are deployed the One Decade War makes a lot more sense than the One Year War. >>23986823>Can you please stop lying. We both know that isn't true.dude that's not even from MSG that's from a later movie
>>23986919>iirc Side 3 has been specifically said to have about 150 million people. There's no reason for the population to be evenly distributed across all the colonies and Earth I don't think you understand how tiny 150 million is in the grand scheme. You are basically saying Zeon is the same population as the African country of Ethiopia and somehow conquered half the world and most of space. Sorry that doesn't pass even a basic sniff test.
>>23986919>>23986924Side 3 population in some databooks was retconned to between 1 billion to 2 billion people.
>>23986924It's direct from the anime. Right before the Hitler conversation.
>>23986929>Side 3 population in some databooks was retconned to between 1 billion to 2 billion people.I wasn't aware of this>>23986924>I don't think you understand how tiny 150 million is in the grand scheme. You are basically saying Zeon is the same population as the African country of Ethiopia and somehow conquered half the world and most of space. Sorry that doesn't pass even a basic sniff test.well I mean they did lose afterall since they couldn't hold that territory and canonically got pushed out after like 7 months
>>23986929>Side 3 population in some databooks was retconned to between 1 billion to 2 billion people.Okay this makes more sense. Zeon's 150 million VS the Federation 15 billion was an absurd difference.
>>23986955>Okay this makes more sense. Zeon's 150 million VS the Federation 15 billion was an absurd difference.those weren't all Feddie, about a third were neutral. And that number quickly dropped to about 7 billion after a week.
>>23986955you're retarded if you ever thought it was 15 billion, that number NEVER shows up anywherethe zeeks even gassed and nuked most of the other sides so they're all out of the fight. only those that were already enlisted with the feds are the only ones that end up fighting. realistically it's zeek 1.3 billion vs feds 3 billion with a smattering of however many survivors of sides 1, 2, 4, and 5 that already signed up before their home cities got wiped
>>23980519It just seemed kind of odd story wise that Zeon struggled to make the Gelgoog when Zeon were leaders in mobile suit development. Yet somehow the Gelgoog gave them so many headaches and took extra long to develop.
>>23990902It was the Beam Weapon technology that gave them the most trouble. The Gelgoog itself wasn't anything special in terms of tech and they certainly did not struggle making it. They have stated many times that they could have released the Gelgoog's a lot earlier, if they hadn't been forced to wait until they figured out beam weapons for it.
>>23990936Why would bema technology give them trouble? They already made beam weapons for Z'Gok, various water mobile suits, various mobile armors, and even the Dom had that beam bazooka.
>>23990936I think deploying the Gelgoog earlier without the beam weapons was the better call. Give them heat rods and rockets. If they need beams then I remember the Rick Dom has been bazookas they can use temporarily.
>>23990971it's miniaturization and power requirements. the aquatic suits are superheavy MS with large reactors that can take in seawater for cooling, the mobile armors are really big. none of that works on a gelgoog which is space use and way smaller but still bigger than a zakuunpopular opinion but the feds surpassed the zeeks when they developed smaller lighter GMs that could power an all-beam weapon loadout. then the zeeks leap-frogged the feds again with the gelgoog, gelgoog jager, galbaldy, act zaku but the feds' best MP model to offer is just the GM sniper>>23991001>>23990971the beam bazooka is already rare as fuck so giving some of them to gelgoogs just means even demand when they can't make enough of thembesides, they already deployed another next-gen MS early before its beam weapons were ready, that was the act zaku using a bullpup machine gun and it sure as fuck didn't make a big difference
>>23991036The main problem is that Zeon needed a mobile suit that was better than the GM in raw performance (speed, agility, etc). So it would allow Zeon veteran pilots to use leverage experience and win battles.- Zakus were underpowered and weaker than standard GMs. - The Doms and Rick Doms were about equal to a GM. But the Dom series couldn't win decisively over a GM. It was a toss up depending on the pilot skill levels.- The Gelgoog was better than the GM in every way. And that's before they added Gelgoog beam rifles. What Zeon should have done was mass produce the Gelgoog body as soon as possible. Then give beam weapons later. That way Zeon pilots have the best suit available for major battles. Imagine Gelgoogs fighting at the Battle of Jaburo and the Battle of Odessa. Zeon might have been able to hold Odessa. Or do more damage to Jaburo.
>>23980519Gundam = KV-2Very strong, but few units and requires good pilots.Gelgoog is like Tiger Panters
>>23983431>Guncannon, GuntankBoth were good
>>23991191it's really fucking weird how the MSG novels and origin and a bunch of other side material keep insisting that they're shit
>>23991950Other Gundam writers can't stand the idea of their main characters not being unique, important, or skilled. They want their main characters have their special snowflake mobile suits and great battle moments too.But the reality is that ONLY the Gundam was special, and there was only one Gundam. Only White Base was unique. The rest of Federation military were grunts. They used basic GMs that were nothing to brag about but got the job done.If you were to write a story about Federation GMs fighting, it would be more like the World War 2 Battle of Normandy in this picture. Hordes of GMs getting mowed down by Zeon weapons, thousands of pilots die, but more GMs keep coming. Zeon slowly gets pushed back. Every inch gained by the Federation is paid by thousands of fallen troops. That's the story of the GM.
>>23980822Zeon beam weaponry is vastly better than the Federation's, just that it took them slightly longer to miniaturize it. This is not only explicitly stated but is also the major reason that so many engineers from Zeon were recruited for future MS.
>>23992050>This is not only explicitly statedWhen?
>>23991072>might have been able to hold Odessa.M'Quve's entire plan for holding Odessa relied on Elran being his mole on the Federation's side, if Amuro foils that plan then Odessa is a bust for Zeon.Ironically, this means M'Quve was the architect of his own downfall when he blocked the resupply to Ramba Ral, who could have plausibly taken down White Base and therefore prevented them from ruining M'Quve's plans at Odessa.
>>23992134>M'Quve's entire plan for holding Odessa relied on Elran being his mole on the Federation's side,Because he knew he couldn't win a straight up slugfest with the Federation using older Zakus against GMs. But if he had an army of Gelgoogs, then that's a different story.
>>23992123remember the advanced beam weapons used by the zeon-engineered GP project, hizacks, the beam smartguns of the Z\ZZ era, the beam weapons used by the cima fleet in 0083, and the remnants in ZZ,
>>23992187That's a long way from "explicitly stated".
>>23992165There were barely any GMs at Odessa anyway, I guarantee you Zeon had far more mobile suits at that battle than the Federation did. But the Feddies had a shitton of tanks and planes.Wiki has 30 MS for the Feddies vs 1,100 for Zeon. Those numbers could be bs but the point is there was no contest in terms of MS numbers.Whatever M'Quve was afraid of, it wasn't 29 GMs and one Gundam wiping out his entire army.
>>23992134>M'Quve's entire plan for holding Odessa relied on Elran being his mole on the Federation's side, if Amuro foils that plan then Odessa is a bust for Zeon. M'Quve was just trying to be overly clever. He was trying to win the battle by using a risky strategy by leaving gaps in the defense and diverting those forces elsewhere to hurt the Federation. M'Quve could have won if he just played it straight up and defended normally. Not use petty political tricks. It's clear the guy doesn't have much military experience.
>>23992507>There were barely any GMs at Odessa anywayAs time goes on this seems to retconned more and more. MS IGLOO shows a ton of ground GMs at Odessa. They seem to be equal in numbers (if not more) than Zeon mobile suits.
>gelgoog
>>23980519The federation was already going to come out with the GM Custom and GM II not too shortly after which can do the same shit and probably cost less to produce because they share similar parts.
>>23997452>GM Custom and GM II These were years away from being released.And the Federation was only interested in raw numbers. They make a mobile suit that can do 75% of what a Gelgoog can do, then mass produce thousand of times. It was about quantity. Not quality. The Federation took a Soviet Union approach to fighting Zeon.
IF THE BIG ZAM WAS MASS PRODUCED!
>>23986159i think in the newer blue destiny manga this is what happened with Yuu Kajima. And if we go by certain ps2 games this 100 percent happened with characters like Monsha. Anyone at loum would be chomping at the bit to be a MS pilot.
>>23995465There were only 42 Ground GMs ever made. We see like 6 or 9 in 08th MS team, and they get destroyed. MS IGLOO is playing around with the remaining couple dozen. Given it's probably stretching the believability of the numbers.
>>23997459Most sources suggest the Federation only made a few hundred GMs overall, maybe several hundred if you push it. Like MSV profiles and the Master Grade RGM-79 manual points to the 330ish that were known to be produced, although there were one or two more batches made at the very end of the war. Even if we're generous and say they doubled it, we're looking at like 700 GMs of all types during the OYW. Meanwhile Zeon produced a few thousand Zaku types alone also according to their respective MG manuals. Even if you look at B-Club and Entertainment Bible, which throw around much larger numbers, there were more Zaku IIs produced than GMs. The Federation was a more efficient fighting force even if you include the fact they fielded a lot of support crafts.
>>23997694The numbers for the OYW never made sense. And it only has gotten worse with all the decades of stories and shit they keep shoving into the time period.>the gundam is the most advanced mobile suit the federation has!>actually we have a bunch of gundams which are better then the rx-78-2!>We even have some GMs which have similar performance!>But they got rest by random zakus or zeon machines which were super powerful!
>BLUEGOOG >>23997694I'm not sure what source I read, but I thought the Federation deployed around 3000 GMs during Operation Start One alone. A bunch of those got ganked by the Colony Laser and regular combat, but the maybe 1500 that were left iirc were largely converted to GMIIs and IIIs down the line.
>>23997694>Even if we're generous and say they doubled it, we're looking at like 700 GMs of all types during the OYW.Very doubtful since the Federation has a population of several billion even towards the end of the war.
>>23997709Only legally. We see throughout the series that most people don't cooperate or even like the Federation even on Earth. Like the New Yarkers, or people in Amuro's hometown (Japanese), Or even the amazon tribes who helped Char find Jaburo. Or in ZZ all of Africa and/or muslims. >>23997708Probably Entertainment Bible, which isn't even consistent internally within the same books because they were just pumped out quickly sell to new fans. Given, Operation Star One involved a majority of the combat ready Federation forces converging on Abao Qu as the last stop on their asteroid hopping strategy to reach Side 3; any fighting around Granada, Pezun, and Side 6 were small scale. They at least like throw around big numbers somewhat consistently.>>23997703You have to remember the Gundam and Amuro were like demigods on the battlefield. They were terrorizing Zeon for 3 months out of a 1 year war. Even if engineers claim their new MS is more advanced on paper who's going to believe that if it gets trickshot by the Gundam or by a dinky Zaku before it even gets a chance to fight? At least in universe it makes sense for all the more advanced Gundams to get overshadowed by the White Devil.
>BLACK TRI STAR GOOG>>23997977>Even if engineers claim their new MS is more advanced on paper who's going to believe that if it gets trickshot by the Gundam or by a dinky Zaku before it even gets a chance to fight? At least in universe it makes sense for all the more advanced Gundams to get overshadowed by the White Devil.dubs and exactly. Even if the Federation had other better mobile suits on paper, it's easy to get autistic about specs and forget that the White Devil had an autistic precognitive psychic pilot at the helm. It's still stupid though how every damn obscure manga and game has to have it's own special snowflake Gundam though. The OYW timeframe really doesn't make much sense.
>>23992307>the beam weapons used by the cima fleet in 0083>That's a long way from "explicitly stated".He's quite literally fucking with you
>>23997709More like it's extremely likely because the Feds only started mass producing GMs for the last 6~8 weeks of the war
how did economics and industrial capacity work in late UC 0079?the closest we get to modelling it was the Gihren's Greed games where you can figure the opportunity costs behind what if you bought a unit of gelgoogs vs other units/ships
>>23997687>There were only 42 Ground GMs ever made. Why do you cling to this number? It's rather arbitrary
>>23997977>At least in universe it makes sense for all the more advanced Gundams to get overshadowed by the White Devil.At most, I could tolerate custom GMs running around with Ace pilots and fighting in the final battles of the war. But there was only ever ONE Gundam during the One Year War. The single prototype that survived Side 7. Not a single person in the anime ever references other Gundams existing. And conveniently none of these other Gundams were around when defending Jaburo from attack. Only Amuro saved the day in his Gundam. Only White Base prevented the GM factories from being destroyed.
>>23981105Holy shit what made Shin so mad in this panel?
>>23997984>It's still stupid though how every damn obscure manga and game has to have it's own special snowflake Gundam though. I blame Bandai. They didn't keep their manga writers under control and let them do whatever they wanted. So we have mangas full of special snowflake Gundams that are way more powerful than Amuro's Gundam. If I were Bandai, I would have set a rule that they were not allowed to create brand new Gundams for the main characters of the story was set during the One Year War. If they made a story set after the OYW, then it would be allowed.
>>23998643>I blame BandaiThey also went the other way, I remember there was some interview I think with people that worked on Gundam OVAs from 0083 to MS Igloo, and the suits communicated to them that a Gundam should pay homage to the RX-78's head design as much as possible so that it is recognizable and series without Gundams in them have terrible marketability
>>23998699>and series without Gundams in them have terrible marketabilityWasn't it revealed that Zakus are the best selling mobile suit of all time? That's why they made so many Zaku variants.
>>23998384nigga it's literally the only number they ever said for the ground gm>>23998392at minimum there's the RX-78-1 developed on earth, no one ever managing to become famous with another gundam is an entirely different problem though
>>23998722I seriously doubt that. Maybe specifically char's zaku sells well, but grunts have always, always sold worse than protag suits no matter how much people complain about them getting all the support. Star power is a big deal.>>23998643They already solved it by saying you don't have to give a shit about them. You can be a first gundam only purist, a tomino purist, an animation purist, whatever. Gundam has different levels of canonicity you can set to.
>>23998296GG prices are pure game balance and nothing else. Don't use them even to compare different MS, let alone comparing MS with ships. Like every commander type MS has its performance jacked way up so that it doesn't just suck compared to squads of 3 grunts.
>>23998643>Gundam manga>look inside>no GundamsI can see from a marketability point of view why Bandai didn't have any mandate like this, it helps you sell the manga if it has a new Gundam on the cover.
>>23999242You are correct except for UC. The Zakus are one of the best selling gunpla of all time. For some reason, fans absolutely love those cyclops looking scuba diver teddy bears
>>23999365They could have had a story where Amuro's Gundam makes a cameo in the manga. Like a group of GMs fighting at Odessa and they run into White Base.
>>23999362ok, but how long did it take to build a standard gelgoog vs a commander type vs other specialized types like the MS-14B?some ratios would be nice.
>GELGOOG CANON>>23999464There's some manga (yeah I know) that talks about the background of UC tech, and one section if I remember right basically says that Zeon devloped these giant 3D metal printer things and an advanced computer, where the engineers input the specs they want, and the computer rapidly helps them design the mobile suit and then prints it's components. So from design to prototype like a week or two. I've only seen it in scans here so I may be misremembering.
>>23999546>if I remember right basically says that Zeon devloped these giant 3D metal printer things and an advanced computernow this is the kinda lore I was looking for.was it from Zeonic Scanlations or Mark Simmons/gundamunofficial.com I'm not sure, it's been a long time and a lot of changed.I remember hearing something about how in the UC timeline, production practices changed and it was fully roboticized and the plants were fully automated and integrated with CNC/3D printing AI (which explains all the rapid streamlining we see during the One Year War).It's funny that at times the engineering and economics behind UC Gundam becomes paramount to the story then gets inconsistently handwaved away at times like what they did with my boi Tem Ray
>>23998392I mean you can handwave this instory by saying that the Federation controlled the propaganda: at times elevating Gundam and White Base's exploits and at other times diminishing them for strategic or political reasons (remember, they locked up Amuro for years under house arrest fearing his Newtype potential and possible political ambition (and they weren't wrong, look at how Char/Quattro turned out)).
>>23999585
>>23999585I don't seem to have any pages of it saved, but it was a black and white manga that also talked about variants of the G-Fighter trying to make it sound reasonable and not a toyific retarded box with wings. It's been posted on here before, I'm sure someone has it saved
>>23992123>>23992307Gunner Gundam's beam rifle is based off the Gelgoog's beam rifle and it was the testbed for all future EF beam weaponry. That and like anon already said, Zeonic engineers hired by the EF and Anaheim. Zeon is mass producing shit like the Zaku III and Qubeley while the EF can barely produce GM IIIs once they lose said engineers.
>>23998392>And conveniently none of these other Gundams were around when defending Jaburo from attackMost of them were completed after the attack on Jaburo.
>>23999765The Gunner Gundam isn't even real. It's a canned design that only existed in data. Besides, the NT-1's rifle already took the slot of being the father of future beam weapons with sources speculating that its beam rifle was the first rifle with e-pac technology.
>>23999546>>23999585>>23999672You're talking the MSV-R Johnny Ridden manga that introduced the idea of the automated and assisted development software
>>24000118thanks anon.was the manga any good? I remember it had loli shit in it.
>>23999911>Most of them were completed after the attack on Jaburo.Why would they make more prototype Gundams when engineers had moved to full mass production of the GM? That makes no sense. The Gundams were meant for collecting data for the GM.
>>24000145more gunpla
>>24000137it's interesting and goes into technical detail on a bunch of different ideas like how they're still dealing with debris from the OYW and why certain MS designs were the way they were, but proper translations stopped at volume 15 and the only thing available afterward are awful MTL stuff that doesn't even try to sound naturalas for the loli, she was a zeon newtype labs subject in the OYW who might have stayed the same age due to being in cryostasis or something. but the important part is that she's not the cliche crazy bitch enemy pilot and she isn't sexualized either, so I didn't have a reason to hate the character, it's probably just the manga artist being told to include more younger characters. The same person also wrote a Gundam manga about a Gihren assassination conspiracy with normal (read: serious-looking and not wacky or weird) adult characters.>>24000145surprise they need to make new gundams models to sell new GM models to sell gunpla models
>>24000145>That makes no sense. The Gundams were meant for collecting data for the GMGiven that the GM family doesn't end at the original base model RGM-79 I don't think it's unreasonable that others may have existed as testbeds for future development. The EFF had no way of knowing the war was almost over.
>>24000502cool. I might take the time and read those 15 volumes anon. I figure if it's compelling, I can get AI to translate the rest of the Japanese scans at that point.
>>24000510Yeah but you wouldn't make more RX-78-2 prototypes. It would be like making more F-22 prototypes AFTER the F-22 has already gone into mass production. No. You would make something brand new. Like the GP Series from 0083 or the Zeta Gundam series.
>>24000816Most of those later prototypes like the Pixy or Gundam Unit 4 were made exactly to be the "next step" after the RX-78 turned out to do so well in the frontlines, they just didn't end up pushed to that role in the end.
>>24000502>surprise they need to make new gundams models to sell new GM models to sell gunpla modelsWell yeah obviously. But the problem is trying to come up with a good and viable in-universe reason for their existence.
>>24000816they literally didn't make more RX-78-2, the person you're replying to complained about there being more advanced gundams existing>>24000855countering new zeon tech with new tech of their own isn't good enough?
>>24000980>countering new zeon tech with new tech of their own isn't good enough?They already have GMs. Lots of GMs. THAT'S the counter to Zeon tech.
>>24000989oh yeah then how come they didn't do that in the lore and they went with NEW MODEL then?
>>24000816>Yeah but you wouldn't make more RX-78-2 prototypes. It would be like making more F-22 prototypes AFTER the F-22 has already gone into mass production.No. What you do is modify existing hardware to use as testbeds.As cutting edge as it looks with the swept wings, the X-29 was still a cheap F-5 Tiger at its core.
>>24000993>oh yeah then how come they didn't do that in the lore and they went with NEW MODEL then?They did. The 0083 lore directly contradicts the 0079 mangas. In 0083, the majority of the Federation military hates Gundams and special snowflake machines. They believe that supremacy of is achieved through sheer numbers with a massive space Navy and a massive mobile suit force of mass production mobile suits like the GM. This lines up with the attitude of Generals seen during the original 0079 anime. Crush Zeon through sheer production numbers and military might.
>>24000816>>24000996That's what the Gundams are. The RX-78 series are all derived from each other. The original 3 -1 units were upgraded to the -2 specification. And one of the -2 units that were damaged at Side 7 were collected and upgraded to the -3 to experiment with a better learning computer and new motors/magnetic coating. The -4 and -5 were new builds with relatively small upgrades over the -3, even if they're visually a little unique, and the Mudrock took the redesign further for land and long-range combat, but they share the same general frame with modifications, like removing the coreblock in the waist.The NT-1 is the only was the only one that's really "new" because now sources say it introduced the movable frame concept, presumably in the arms, since the GM Quel and Custom are said to share the same arm structure. But even that was based on the RX-78-2's data.
>>23999242>>23999365One of the first times Bandai visibly catered to Zaku fans was when they gave the Zaku in this set a its own release while the Ground Gundam didn't get a standalone kit until its HGUC years later.
>>24001098>And one of the -2 units that were damaged at Side 7 were collected and upgraded There were NO extra units left at Side 7. They were all destroyed. We specifically see White Base throw napalm fire bombs on the wreckage to melt everything to slag, and make sure no one can recover anything!
>>24001130>There were NO extra units left at Side 7. They were all destroyed. We specifically see White Base throw napalm fire bombs on the wreckage to melt everything to slag, and make sure no one can recover anything!Not in the -canon- movies. MSV profiles specifically have the RX-78-3 being a surviving RX-78 upgraded to that specification afterwards.
>>24001098Why would White Base leave anything for Zeon to recover? They loaded everything they could into White Base and destroyed anything they left behind. There's no way Zeon would miss a random extra Gundam unit being left behind. That's such an absurd backstory.
>>24001138>Why would White Base leave anything for Zeon to recover? They loaded everything they could into White Base and destroyed anything they left behind.>That's such an absurd backstory.Because that's literally the backstory for SEED Astray: Lowe and Gai found their units in the wreck of Heliopolis
>>24001209>SEED Astray: Lowe and Gai found their units in the wreck of HeliopolisWait wait wait. Didn't the entire colony explode and shatter into a million pieces?
>>24001233Remember that it had a mining asteroid attached to it. That's where they picked them up.
>>23999595Why are the zakus blindfolded, what don't they want them to see?
>>24001016nigga all of those GMs you mentioned aren't even the same as the 0079 GM, they're the upgraded katoki version with extra thrusters and different gunsthe 0083 lore even has the elite GMs using parts from the new gundams, see >>24000502>>24001130>>24001134both of you are arguing over fucking nothing. literally nothing in both TV or movie dialogue contradicts the idea of the white base crew collecting extra RX-78-2 parts to give to the federation to later fix up and assemble into the RX-78-3. in both versions, bright orders amuro to load gundam parts onto white base and destroy the rest of the parts left in the colony that they can't use or move, before they leave side 7>>24001138nigga you're going to have to explain why you think zeon recovered anything at all because he never said anything about zeon recovering anything
>>24001523>nigga you're going to have to explain why you think zeon recovered anything at all because he never said anything about zeon recovering anythingBecause Zeon invaded and attacked Side 7. They would recover any technology left behind long before any Federation recovery team could re-visit Side 7 (after White Base escaped).
>>24001523The original GM was also used during 0083. It was most widely used GM. The GM Custom was only made in small amounts.
>>24001542everyone already knows nothing was left behind for the zeeks to salvage.even when arguing with each other, both >>24001130 and >>24001134 agreed that no parts were left for zeon to find, the only difference is they don't agree on whether those parts were used to create the RX-78-3 or not.>>24001547He's not talking about the GM Custom. Surely you can tell the differences between the twin-thruster and quad-thruster GM models and the different bullpup guns they use.
>>24001523>literally nothing in both TV or movie dialogue contradicts the idea of the white base crew collecting extra RX-78-2 parts to give to the federation to later fix up and assemble into the RX-78-3If white Base collected enough parts to build another Gundam, then they would have done it while traveling to Jaburo. In fact, it's mentioned several times about White Base running low on supplies and spare parts. So your theory is unlikely.
>>24002389>If white Base collected enough parts to build another Gundam, then they would have done it while traveling to Jaburo.Not necessarily. The Argama got several Mk-IIs to use as spare parts rather than field two at once.
>>24002389If the spare parts were running low that's even more reason not to assemble a second active unit.
>>24002407They only used one for spare parts. The other was sent to Anaheim.
>>24002389You're making a shitload of assumptions and not even considering all the possibilities. if they're low on spare parts, why the fuck would they use up all the spare parts to assemble another gundam, leaving few to no spare parts for both machines? then later when one or both of them gets damaged, they'll have to cannibalize one machine to fix the other and then they're back to just one working gundam except you had them waste hours of work assembling together a machine just to dissassemble it for parts againbesides, they don't necessarily need to deploy a second gundam if they don't have trained MS pilots. amuro was already put into the gundam's cockpit as an accident, shoving kai into a guncannon and the rest of the team on the guntanks, gunperry, etc was necessity, not because they were fully qualified or trained to use them. ryu's background has him as a aerospace pilot, sayla seems to be a better pilot for the g-armor and core booster rather than a proper MS for example (as far as the animation goes)maybe they are also missing specific parts that prevent them from assembling an entire MS. they could have multiple limbs, guns, shields, but maybe they only have 80% of an entire MS and they're missing, fuck I dunno, a spare nuclear reactor.
>>24002528>if they're low on spare parts, why the fuck would they use up all the spare parts to assemble another gundam,They wouldn't have spare parts to assemble another full Gundam. You are assuming they do.
>>24002688>They wouldn't have spare parts to assemble another full Gundam. I only said they carried spare parts. I even said "maybe they only have 80% of an entire MS".>You are assuming they do.Where did I even say that? >>24002389 claimed they would have done it if they had it, and guess what - RX-78-3 wasn't built by the White Base, it was built elsewhere.
>>24002407>Not necessarily. The Argama got several Mk-IIs to use as spare parts rather than field two at once.I believe 1 was kept aboard Argama and 2 were sent back to Anaheim Electronics. In Zeta, they also ran out of spare parts for the Mark 2 as well.
>>24002700You have no idea how many spare parts they have yet you defend the idea of White Base having enough to construct more Gundams. This was never true.
>>24004719nigga is you deaf, >>24002389 said they would build more gundams, I'm saying they DON'T have enough to build gundams and G-3 was literally NOT built by the white base
>>23986458>>23986459I think it's shredded cheese I half-assed meltingbut kraut is possible
