I'm annoyed that the unambiguous good guys of 0079 have become a punching back for mentally stunted writers to vent about whatever grievances they have with the world. Long live the Earth Federation.
>>24032459>I'm annoyed that the unambiguous good guys of 0079 have become a punching back for mentally stunted writers to vent about whatever grievances they have with the world.Post five examples
>>24032459To be fair even in the original 0079 anime there was a few members that were quite off-putting though most of that is cut out from the film trilogy. Zeon was unambiguously portrayed as villains in the original series, thats a fact
>>24032459>unambiguous good guys of 0079Zeon?
fucking same. shades of gray? sure. corrupt, unlikable members/ totally, adds depthZeon dindu-isms, muh they were the good guys (killed billions)? fuck you>>24032461>he hasn't seen a single post MSG gundam showlmao
>>24032479>killed billionsShouldn't have oppressed spacenoids
>>24032463The worst thing a Feddie ever did in 0079 was act as a spy for Zeon, who as you point out were pure evil, despite a few chivalrous warriors fighting for them. What's striking is how many sympathetic Federation officers exist in the series considering you can basically expect a few completely deranged and self-interested ones in any series after.
>>24032486>oh no i have to pay taxes to the gov>lets genocide!zeeks deserved worse
>>24032496>What's striking is how many sympathetic Federation officersGeneral Revil and Sleggar. Matilda was baiting Amuro "Simp" Ray into being a soldier. Meanwhile Zeon had heroes back to back
>>24032502>muh heroes on the invading, genocidal sideRamba was cool, would have been cooler had he defected and joined the good guys intead
>>24032500>zeeks deserved worse>Expel people to space in terrible conditions>they eventually make it work>rule them as a police state>they want autonomy>refuse and oppress them harder>their pacifist leader dies>the hardline successor declares war and BTFOs youoh no how could that have happened
oh sweet a /ucpol/ thread
>>24032504Nearly every feddie we meet is a piece of trashNearly every zeon soldier we meet is a cool guy. Even the evil ones have a sense of honor
>>24032509still zabi whipped shittersstill fighting for the bad guysstill lost lmao
>>24032505>pacifist leader di-is killed by a psychotic asshole who throws all attempts and diplomacy away for his "muh spacenoids" agendadeservedWORSE
>>24032502Paolo, Woody, and Wakkein too. In other series you might just get one sympathetic one to contrast with how crazy the others are. The narrative was clearly that these guys might be a little flawed, but they still looked very good when faced with absolute evil. But after that many have sought to portray the EF as totally, irredeemably corrupt, which almost reads as if they're saying killing billions is acceptable since the Feddies are just that bad.
>>24032507Spacenoids have their origin in the people expelled from earth. There are decades of resentment against Feddies among spacenoids. Right after Zeon was integrated back into the federation the feddies immediately restarted the mass deportations. They deserved the colony drops
>>24032514You named 5 people max. Lmao
>>24032507SIEG ZEON
>>24032516Yeah, I named every Federation officer who is onscreen long enough to display a personality, zeek freak.
>>24032520JEEG JOHNJEEG JOHN
>>24032520
>>24032532Zeon only lost because Degwin couldn't keep his children in line
>>24032544then he deserved to lose, who the fuck wants the lord emperor of humanity to be a shit dad?
>>24032459>unambiguous good guys of 0079uh, dude
>>24032505That's all bullshit they made up for The Origin.
>>24032505>>24032551Aside from Zeon Deikun's death, I mean.
>>24032551You mean the series created by one of the creators of the original show?
>>24032574Call him by his proper title, character designer and animation director. What else has he written besides the Origin?
>>24032586>What else has he written besides the Origin?Shit tons of manga. Are you seriously going to pretend his entire career is just gundam?
>>24032595Well no, I'm actually asking about it. It's a neutral question.This is a chance to bring up details about what he's done, since people seem willing to shit on the Origin.
>>24032614Go look up his bibliography>people seem willing to shit on the Origin.Complaints amount to muh zeon wank muh char wank
>>24032544>Degwin "Ghiren you are becoming hitler">Ghiren "that is the best compliment I have ever been given">Degwin "that's not a compliment you fucking tard"
>>24032616not wrong
>>24032616it's entertaining zeon/char wank though
>>24032544If my lady Kycilia were supreme commander she would've won and also she definitely would've made me her favourite lieutenant and would give me footjobs as well.
>>24032633That was the cringiest part of MSG. If Tomino had balls he should have called out Hirohito and Tojo
>>24032654Zeon are already enough of an imperial Japan stand-in; that would've been a bit too on the nose.
>>24032654eh, I don't really care which genocidal dictator Ghiren was compared to, the point he was making was more important.
>>24032586>>24032614I can't guarantee this is true since this is all stuff he said in interviews etc. and I guess there's the possibility he's just straight-up lying in retrospect, but he did make some suggestions etc. during the writing/development process of 0079 that ended up playing a pretty big role in how the show would turn out:>suggested Amuro be the MC instead of Bright which was Tomino's (?) original idea>apparently early outlines suggested Garma dying in the 5th episode, Yas felt that was way too fast and that the character should stick around longer>it was Yas's idea that Char should kill Garma (not sure if this is related to the above point or not since I think these points were mentioned in 2 different sources)Also I honestly don't know how much importance to give to this since I don't know how much of the character's backstory/role was already written when Yas did the designs, but Tomino didn't like Yas drawing Char with a mask because he felt it was too much of an anime/manga cliche for the story he wanted to tell. So it seemed like that played a role in the show directly commenting on/explaining why he wears the mask so it wouldn't just seem completely random.There might be more stuff I'm just not aware of but assuming any of the above is true, he ended up having influence on more than just character designs even if that was his official title/role. The same could also probably be said for the different writers/directors too though, since it feels like some Gundam fans attribute literally everything to "Tomino" sometimes as though he personally wrote and animated the entirety of each episode himself. Definitely other people contributed in ways that aren't as commonly recognized.
>>24032680Yeah he definitely has a lot more influence on Gundam than just being the guy in charge of animation, and Tomino is open about how him, Okawara and the scriptwriters were essential to making Gundam a success. Anybody who says otherwise outs themselves as a tourist dipshit who hasn't actually watched any Gundam media but just skimmed a poorly-sourced wiki and thinks they're an expert.>Animage: When deciding on the character design for the protagonist, what sort of image did you have in mind!?>Yasuhiko: Even before Mr Tomino presented his plan for *Gundam*, I had a character in mind whom I’d like to try as the protagonist. That character is the Amuro we know today, but in Mr Tomino’s plan, Bright was the protagonist. It was a bit different from the image of the protagonist I had in mind. In fact, a boy named Amuro, who was one of the supporting characters, was the perfect fit for my vision of the protagonist. So, after much discussion, we ended up promoting Amuro from a supporting role to the lead.
>>24032680>it feels like some Gundam fans attribute literally everything to "Tomino" sometimes as though he personally wrote and animated the entirety of each episode himself.Seriously, people forget the Hajime Yatate part of the "created by" credits. HelI I remember Tomino in an interview mentioning how he was looking for his notes for the first half of Gundam, but realized he left it all to the scriptwriters so he didn't actually have anything written for it. Garma, Matilda, Ramba Ral, Hamon, all are explicitly the creations of scriptwriters Hoshiyama, Araki, Yamamoto and Matsuzaki, but of course so-called Gundam fans wouldn't know anything about that because "Tomino is le genius, all hail Tomino".
>>24032459>Unambiguous good guysPic unrelated btw, anyone who lets the Titans take power isn't good in the slightest.
>>24033018From what I've read from translated sources, the original plan was that the White Base would be the main "mecha" and would be called the Freedom Fortress. This was before mobile suits were a thing and their equivalent would have been more fighter ship like. From what I gather the earliest concept of what would become Gundam was almost a Yamato ripoff since it had been such a huge hit.
>>24033021That was after the devastation of the war and the changed political environment, along with so many spots opening up for corrupt assholes that they'd never otherwise get.
>>24032515correction: the colony drops prove that spacenoids deserved to be deported, they are deranged enough to think it is a proportional response
>>24032496>The worst thing a Feddie ever did in 0079They blew up colonies while fighting Zeon space forces. The Federation routinely used civilian colonies and buildings as shields against Zeon. They had no regard for collateral damage or civilian life Despite the Colony passing the point of no return, the Federation forces decided that the colony could not be allowed to fall on Jaburo. So they decided to use nukes to break apart the colony and let it fall onto multiple cities on Earth. Thus killing billions of people and half the human population on the planet. But Jaburo was saved The Federation broke the neutrality treaty with Side 6 and purposely stored weapons and ships inside Side 6 colonies. Then pretended to be outraged that Zeon would attack a "neutral" colony.The Federation conducted military testing in civilian colonies, endangered civilians, and wanted to use them as a shield. The Federation his troops inside Earth villages and towns. Then used the local town residents as human shields against Zeon because Zeon didn't want to harm the local civilian population. When the local civilians demanded the Fed troops leave and stop using civilians as shields, The Fed troops beat civilians who protested and threatened to kill any civilian who didn't support the Federation troops.The Federation routinely violated ceasefires and attacked Zeon personnel.The Feds purposely sent in mobile suits into zones filled with enemy bombs. The commander hoped the bombs would go off, damage the mobile suit nuclear reactor, and cause a nuclear explosion taking out nearby Zeon occupation forces. The commander said this doesn't violate any treaty since he didn't use a "nuclear weapon". Reactors exploding don't count.The Federation committed war crimes by wearing Zeon uniforms, stealing Zakus, and killing.If we include Unicorn:The Federation blew up colonies and assainated their own politicians.The Federation went into colonies and genocided the civilians.
>>24032459You have failed the test.
>>24033193>If we include UnicornWhy not? You already included Zeonwank from the 08th MS Team, which is not related to the topic at hand (0079) at all.
>>24033193all of these are nothing compared to the war of annihilation launched by Zeon btw
>>24033267>war of annihilationThere was no war of annihilation. The Federation and Zeon destroyed so many colonies in their battles against each other. They are both responsible.
>>24033270>There was no war of annihilationthe state of disingenuous discussion in these threads
Earth federation is nothing but fat corrupt rich officials. It's a good representation of how crappy the world is with the rich elite running everythig. You will never be one of them, stop sucking their dick. I know this is extremely hard to do if you are American or worse lolbertarian
>>24033271If Zeon wanted to destroy everything, they could have EASILY done that. Several Zeon characters literally said they didn't want to rule over ruins
>>24032504I could see Ramba siding with AEUG over Axis had he lived post 0079. Post Zeta though gets tricky. Given how weak and corrupt the Federation were and that Char bailed, he either would have gone into hiding or jumped ship back to Axis to get Side 3’s Freedom secured.
>>24033270No they weren't. Pretty much every source says Zeon unilaterally destroyed the colonies as a way to cripple the Federation's colony garrisons. The most telling is that they nearly annihilated 3 sides moments after randomly declaring war because they were positioned to fire on them before even starting the war.
>>24033300Ramba Ral probably would have retired from being a pilot by the time of CCA. He was already pushing 40 years old during the One Year War. 14 years later? Ramba Ral would be in his 50s during CCA. He probably would have started a family and settled down with his hot blonde waifu Hamon.
>>24033193>zigga types out an essay that boils down to "but but what abou-"Everything in your list, zeon has partaken in,and worse. False flags. Attacking civilians. Exterminating whole colonies. Hurling them at civilians on planetThe zigga recoils, its accusations proof of guilt>>24033281It is not wanting the fat rich bastard, but denying supremacists who will gleefully slaughtet innocents the freedom to carry out their agenda.Glory to earth, death to zeon and its successors
>>24033312>but denying supremacists who will gleefully slaughtet innocents the freedom to carry out their agendaGuess what the "fat rich bastards" do/are.
>>24033312>Hurling them at civilians on planet Zeon aimed the colony at Jaburo to end the war early. Jaburo only holds a few thousand people. Maybe tens of thousands. The Federation decided that Jaburo must never fall. So they repeatedly nuked the falling colony until it broke apart into pieces and rained down across the planet. Half the planet died, but Jaburo was saved.Is the Federation truly worse in this scenario?
>>24033318The Federation military command are total idiots. They saved Jaburo but destroyed all their other bases which allowed Zeon to smoothly invade. They should have allowed Jaburo to take the hit. Other bases would have been saved.
>>24033325why couldn't they divert the colony into Antarctica or the north pole? Hitting ice wouldn't cause massive damage
Everyone is kinda missing the obvious here: the Federation sucked, but it wasn't ACTIVELY murdering over half of humanity under the orders of Space Hitler. Just because they were shitty bureaucrats and have corrupt leaders (all politicians are corrupt anyway) doesn't mean people should chimp out and simp for the guy and his family pining to install themselves as the aristocracy of the new world.Zeon can entirely fucking suck without the Feddies being saints.
>>24033557They did when they Federation blew up the colony and sacrificed billions of people on the planet to save Jaburo. Half the human population of the planet died.
>>24033561You mean the colony full of already dead/about to die people which could not be stopped in descent, only diverted? The one full of victims of zeon?
>>24033566A colony holds a couple hundred thousand people. Billions died on Earth. The Federation didn't care about minimizing the damage. They made the situation much worse
>>24033561Zeon is guilty for the lives inside the colony. The Federation is guilty for the billions dead on earth when they blew up the colony cylinder with nukes.
>>24033570I can't recall any point where a colony was mentioned as having anything less than tens of millions of people.
>the zigger brigade emerges with their deflectionsthen nukes were an attempt to STOP the colony drop. the fact that it was dropped at all falls on the lap of the zeek barbariansthe blood of their fellow spacenoids and the innocents butchered by not only the drop, but the subsequent invasion stain their worthless hands, and no amount of cope can change that
>>24033577Zeek apologia can turn even the most liberal-minded fellows into a pro-Titans hardliner.
>>24033577>then nukes were an attempt to STOP the colony drop.But 0083 literally said you can't stop a colony once it passes the point of no return. You can only redirect it. The nukes made the situation a million times worse.
You guys simply don't understand. if I create a problem for you, it is up to you to handle it gracefully. I am not held responsible for causing it in the first place. Similarly, if I point of one of your flaws, I am free to engage in the same behavior scot-free but you're to blame for the entire thing in the first place.Now leave the thread quietly or be branded a rabid fedfag forever.
>>24033585>>24033577Let me ask you a theoretical question:Bank robbers are sitting inside a bank and have 9 civilian hostages. They demand a helicopter be given to them so they can escape. Police have the bank surrounded.The head police officer decides to plant C4 and blow up the entire city block rather than let the Bank robbers escape. The entire city block is destroyed including the bank itself. Several hundred people are killed. Who is responsible for all these deaths? The bank robbers holding 9 people hostage, or the police officer who blew up the entire city block?
>>24033578The Titans were a good idea, with poor excecution and left in the hands of weak minded fools and traitors.Look what happened after they were dissolved, running like rats into zeek hands.Had the Titans been pure in purpose, not even char would have been able to overcome them. Axis would have never even come close to mother earth.Now THAT is an AU I'd read. Proper Zeek dog hunting
>>24033591>Dude the Feddies should've just let their main base be destroyed and immediately lose the war lmao.If that's a crime, then it's a crime that literally any government ever would be guilty of, so it's irrelevant as a token of its character when compared to any possible alternatives.
>>24033557>Zeon can entirely fucking suck without the Feddies being saints.The Zabis and their genocidal dogma needed to go but the rot left within the Federation never gets answered. AEUG with a living Blex Forer was the absolute best chance for the timeline but Jamitov (a Federation hardliner) fucked it up. Blex + Amuro/Bright with a Char Aznable who doesn't get disillusioned with it all after the events of the Gryps Conflict was the final chance for the Universal Century.
>>24032616Reading the Manga, a lot of the Zeonwank was added by the OVA. Like the accident that starts off that rebellion was an asteroid in the Manga whereas in the OVA they made it an Feddie ship. Also the destruction of Side 2 is more graphic in the Manga (we see corpses spilling out of destroyed colonies compared with the sanitized Musai shooting holes in colonies we see in the OVA).
>>24033021The Titans were opposed by the AEUG, largely made up of Feddies wanting to put an end to their bullshit. Meanwhile how many Zeeks, even the supposed 'good' ones turned against the Zabis? At most they looked at the colony drop, went 'Wow, that shit's messed up' then shrugged their shoulders and went back to fighting to make Space Hitler ruler of the Earth Sphere.
>>24033312Never said Zeon was better. House Ronah was though. Iron Mask had to ruin everything with his bugs.
>>24033641You know, that's a good point. the only time we get a Zeon civil war it's for two tyrant wannabes in ZZ. Where is the mythical good Zeon?
>>24033570>>24033575>>24033561My understanding was that while hundreds of millions died on Earth due to Operation British, the billions who died during the One Week Battle were from hundreds of colonies getting nuked by both the Federation and Zeon amidst the fighting. The whole reason for the conflict was forced emigration to space, and didn't most of the human population live in space as of 0079? I was under the impression that only the wealthy and reduced population of poors still lived on Earth. >>24033267>war of annihilationIf Zeon wanted to annihilate the Earth they could have done a mass colony drop like in Gundam X, though I believe in old lore it was left vague on just how many colonies were dropped. Hell, even when 0080 came out it wasn't even established that it was Australia that got hit. All this aside, while we are talking about a series of animated commercials meant to sell toys & plastic models on a Mongolian basket weaving forum, it does seem odd to me that in later UC it never really seems like a world that's recovering from the largest mass death in human history. The OYW and the One Week Battle in particular are like WW III, IV, and V combined. I wonder if in-universe there's like a million movies and documentaries on Operation British like there are with the IRL holocaust. You'd also think that more superweapons like the Solar Ray or more Colony Lasers would be built. If I were the Federation I'd have reverse engineered Colony Lasers in lunar orbit aimed at Side 3 just waiting for an excuse after the war.
>>24033694Presumably the good people still in charge at the Federation didn’t allow projects like that to get off the ground since they’d be made solely for committing more war crimes.
>>24032459‘Member when G-Quacks the alternate UC timeline all but stated in it’s ending that the best route for UC Humanity is for Zeon to not only get a favorable peace treaty with the Federation but is ruled by Space Hitler and his slightly less psychotic sister for several years? I ‘member.
>>24033585Ironic picture since it was the Federation who built the nuclear Gundam in the picture and broke so many treaties. >>24033694>I was under the impression that only the wealthy and reduced population of poors still lived on Earth. Depending on which Gundam sources you read, the Earth had between 10 to around 16+ billion people. The colonies were originally advertised as a bright new future for humanity, and the government encouraged many people to go to space and start new lives. To have a fresh start and for the Earth to environmentally recover. It worked well at first. But after many years, people started noticing only the poor people and lower class people were being sent to space. The Elites and wealthy, anyone with connections, and a much smaller working class population (Elites still need people to serve them) stayed on Earth. When only about 50% of human population were deported off the planet, the Elites and the Federation government suddenly ended the Colony immigration program. No more people were required to be sent to space. Roughly 6 to 7 billion people stayed on the planet (depending on which databook you read). This outraged the spacenoids who felt they were tricked and lost the right to return to their motherland. They felt like Exiles. This is what sparked the spacenoid revolution. Elites stayed behind instead of honoring their promise that everyone should go to space and Earth needs to environmentally rest.
>>24033709>Presumably the good people still in charge at the Federation didn’t allow projects like that to get off the ground since they’d be made solely for committing more war crimes.Until Unicorn Gundam where we find out they lied to Londo Bell and rebuilt the colony laser. Then used it on their own citizens.
>>24033730I honestly can't believe that Japan finally decided to explore the concept of Alternate One Year scenarios with an anime, but the best of idea they could come up with was Gquxxx (or Gquacks or however it's pronounced). Of all the amazing ideas they could have explored...THIS was the best story they could come up with. I'm shocked.
>the federation is evil>How?>Forcing people to live in space !>Which eps or line from OYW/Z/ZZ/F91/V states that?>.... But the ova/novels/comics/etcIt never happened okNone of the main entries from Tomino ever point to any forced migration or any serious "oppression" by the so called federation before OYW. Ever in Z where federation oppression is happening through titans, the main complain seems to be lack of action from the federation congress akin to people complaining about US Congress hosting dog parade rather doing their jobs.
>>24033798>>Which eps or line from OYW/Z/ZZ/F91/V states that? "For 50 years, the Earth Federation puppet masters have insidiously tightened their control over the space colonies. How many times has the Federation quashed our demands for freedom"- Giren Zabi during 0079"People started living in space as the price they paid for destroying nature. But now that space life is common, people are returning to Earth. But those are only the elite of the Federation. Ordinary citizens aren't permitted to return." - Cecil Fairchild during F91.
>>24033817>first quote is from the subhuman leader of the bad guy faction>second quote is from a story set decades after the scars said subhuman left on the planethmmmm
>>24033778>unishart zeekdamopinion discarded
>>24033776>Ironic Yeah isn't that the point of the post? Also treaties with who? Wasn't the Antarctic treaty with Principality of Zeon as ruled by the dynasty not by the Republic of Zeon as ruled by the people? What treaties today are upheld by one country to a non-existing one?
>>24033840The Granada Treaty which was signed with the Republic of Zeon and re-confirmed the contents of the Antarctic Treaty. Although Delaz is being a little bitch and refuses to say Granada Treaty because he doesn't recognize the Republic of Zeon. He thinks they are a bunch of gutless surrender monkeys
>>24033825so they're consistent about it?you asked for OYW/Z/ZZ/F91/V you got it
>>24033302Zeon didn't annihilate colonies because the Federation was occupying them. They annihilated them to cull the human race and remove the inferior specimens who couldn't let go of the Earth. Gihren spells it out in the original show.
>>24033687Ramba Ral and even he was fine with killing half the human race.
>>24033905I'll point out one critical thing no one seems to mention: After the war started not a single Side surrendered. The Federation forced them to continue fighting or used them to protect their local Federation garrisons and ships. They Federation was literally doing Operation human meat shield to stall Zeon as much as possible.
>>24033817>"For 50 years, the Earth Federation puppet masters have insidiously tightened their control over the space colonies. How many times has the Federation quashed our demands for freedom">"People started living in space as the price they paid for destroying nature. But now that space life is common, people are returning to Earth. But those are only the elite of the Federation. Ordinary citizens aren't permitted to return.the second quote didn't address anything about forced migration but rather tighten immigration control after people started to live in space AND each colony is pretty much its own political entity- I doubt nations on would welcome just rando colony citizens just squatting in earth. And the first quote is also hard to take it at face value as it is from someone who literally saidfederation=democracydemocracy=weaknessWeakness destroys people, Hence federation destroys people (by starting the war due to its weakness)Not to mention the whole Giren quote sounds just like any MUH STATE RIGHT meme. If the federation is any where near as oppressive as some believe, zeon wouldn't get anywhere to even challenge or start a war against the federation. It would be crashed before all that.
>>24034106>If the federation is any where near as oppressive as some believe, zeon wouldn't get anywhere to even challenge or start a war against the federation. It would be crashed before all thatThe Federation thought exactly like you. They thought the Zeon military was nothing and could be crushed if they dared to rebel. The Federation had like 3 times the amount of space warships compared to Zeon. But you don't understand how much the Mobile Suit changed space combat. The Federation was caught completely by surprise. The Zeon Mobile suit was developed in secret and was a huge game changer. A single mobile suit could sink an entire battleship with a few well placed hits. It flipped the space war in favor of Zeon.
>I'm annoyed that the unambiguous good guys of 0079I hope you means people seething at Bright.Earth federations used white base as bait , told they would kill them if they don't follow their command and give a shitty posthumous reward to Jose.All of this said in 079 series, not even the film. Earth federations was always shit , same with Zeon.
>>24032459Whitebased and fedpilled.
>>24032479No, seriously, there are ACTUAL examples of writers letting their frustrations with Japan's political situation affecting their portrayal of events (mostly in manga; Sunrise is a bit more conservative in that regard with their animated works.)...But they aren't the norm. Zeon has *never* been the good guys. At their best, they have been bad guys with a lot of sympathetic elements to their cause, but that doesn't suddenly make the fact that GMs seems to get fucked on-screen a proxy for what the writers want ((because off-screen, Feddie MS tend to win 7-8 times out of ten). They're just establishing the bad guys as a genuine threat, and using their zeal and often their veterancy in addition to that to make sure the viewer knows the situation the good guys are dealing with is not only lethal, but also, much like a lot of political situations IRL; a lot more morally complex than anyone with a "moral compass" is ever going to be comfortable with percieving and digesting...because actually acting on those considerations means you have break from your peers, some of whom may be considering the long-term morality of the situation but similarly can't act on it for the same reasons, and even those are likely few, because that would be a crack in the organization and those are punished severely.Everyone thinks of the colony drop, and they should; that shit was horrifying...but nobody thinks of the events that led to it. To consider those is...weakness, right? Being prepared for the next one is a lot more important that considering and possibly even alleviating the grievances that led to a generation of monsters some of whom see it as the only course of action regardless of morality, right?The status quo is maintained. All is well (for the moment.) A corporate mentality is what keeps the world spinning, after all.
Why is moral ambiguity so difficult for people to understand anymore? You would die watching A Clockwork Orange.
>>24032649Hmmm yes
>>24034311shit example, normies and entire governments freaked the fuck out over this on release too. they were probably bigger fags back then than people are now
What I don't get about Zeeks is that they claim to be all for the environment when their Plan A was to turn the Amazon into a crater.
>>24032513That's origin fan fiction. The actual mainline timeline leaves it ambiguous.
>>24032459>the unambiguous good guys of 0079Bait used to be believable.
>>24037427Not that anon, but if anything Origin is one of the few things where I feel like they DO leave it pretty ambiguous like 0079 did. Or at least compared to other stuff where it's pretty much stated the Zabis definitely did it.Yeah I get that revealing he was assassinated was the original plan for 0079, so maybe it's justified they keep stating or hinting this in later stuff, but I think the ambiguity is literally the most interesting thing about it.
>>24032513>>24032551>>24032553>>24032500>>24032505Don't forget ...>Deal with spacenoid rebellions every few years.>Military spending is ramped up to crazy levels but still can't contain the all rebellions. >Federation goes into debt and the economy is on the brink of collapse due to massive spending. >Suddenly Federation decides to allow a few genocides to succeed because it would mean less mouths to feed. Thus helping them balance their yearly budget. These are supposed to be the good guys?
>>24033641Operation British was supposed to destroy Jaburo, not Sidney. Zeon at the time blamed the feds for intentionally causing human misery just to make the Zabis look back. Also once you (accidentally) commit the worst war crime in history, you have to win, or you die, because you know there's no going back otherwise.
>>24037485Yeah. Launching nuclear missiles repeatedly at a colony that's falling wasn't a good idea. The Feds made the situation 1000% worse. They should have evacuated Jaburo and moved to another base. Like California Base or any of their other dozens of bases.
>>24037485>>24037491I have no idea how people try to make this argument like the full colony impacting the Amazon would've surgically only destroyed the underground base and done absolutely nothing else to Earth or its climate. Sydney wasn't even the result of the full impact at its full original velocity and it was borderline apocalyptic well beyond the direct impact site.There is no responsible way to hurl a fucking colony at Earth, and the EFSF is absolutely right to have tried to the last to stop it.
>>24037494>impacting the Amazon would've surgically only destroyed the underground base and done absolutely nothing else to Earth or its climate.Whatever would have happened to the Amazon would have been better for the human race. Billions died when the colony scattered into many pieces, impacted multiples areas, and caused after effects with massive tsunamis. Half the people on the planet died.>There is no responsible way to hurl a fucking colony at Earth0083 proved you can. They targeted North American farmland. Human life was spared. Also ZZ Gundam showed us a colony drop can be focused to just one city and the surrounding area be fine.
>>24032496There's the soldiers on earth who harass Amuro's mother or whatever and the jackhole officer who takes command from Bright for a while early on (Not Wakkien, another guy)
>>24032496What is this revisionist bullshit? Zeon isn't pure evil. The show constantly shows Zeon rank and file to just be normal people, not pure evil assholes. There are entire episodes and scenes dedicated to just this. That ambiguity and humanizing of the antagonists is one of Gundam's strongest points. Why the fuck are you trying to deny that?
>>24037474>those genocides are perpetrated by wackjob spacenoidsYep, good guys. Trying their best, but cruelty is part of the inferior spacenoid morality
>>24037750Zeon only dropped the colony on Jaburo with plenty of advanced noticed. It was the Federation that caused the Genocide by shattering the colony with nukes instead of letting it fall naturally on its intended target.
>>24037509>Zeon isn't pure evil. The show constantly shows Zeon rank and file to just be normal people, not pure evil assholes. There are entire episodes and scenes dedicated to just this. That ambiguity and humanizing of the antagonists is one of Gundam's strongest points. Why the fuck are you trying to deny that?I think this is kind of a flawed take though, even if I get what Tomino was going for. The moment you have "good guys" fighting for the genocidal side it becomes very easy to romanticize the entire faction and you see a lot of this later on.Even in Tomino's writing there's a surprising lack of generalized hatred for Zeon. And outside of that you get other writers outright going for "honorable Zeon spirit!" type of thing. And this all goes back to the lack of criticism of the "good" Zeon soldiers in the original story.
>>24037986The problem is that it lacks genuine understanding. Zeon has good people that’s fine I like that, but we rarely see the thoughts on how each the other. Then the entire sides gets romanticized losing the plot. Bands of Brothers, Emma, All quiet on the eastern frontThese humanized the opposing side, but in terms of the small people in them. There understandings that these are still armies and job needed done. War in the pocket really did what Tomino wanted but succeeded. As it doesn’t make Zeon noble, it makes Bernie noble.
>>24038001>War in the pocket really did what Tomino wanted but succeeded.Lmao. No. Tomino hated it and doesn't consider it real Gundam.
>>24038013Cause he is some demented art fag. Who thinks in binary, I knew the nigga was trash when he used the Hitler comparison in MSG, unironic modern day crybully shit. At least Tomino was ahead of the curve at that.
>>24038001>>24037986Tomino's stance has always been even if Zeon has good soldiers and people, Zeon will never succeed with ambitious dictator leaders who only care about their personal power. His stance on the Federation is that it's a massively corrupt institution that brings misery and will eventually collapse. That's why he wrote the Federation collapsing in late UC and the Sides converting their colonies into self-sustaining generational vessels and leaving the solar system.
>>24037986>I think this is kind of a flawed take thoughTough. It’s an accurate one, both in Gundam and in real life. Things aren’t that black and white.
>>24038116Gundam is as black and white as Star Wars; the gist of the story is about a ragtag band of heroes taking on pure evil.
>>24038259exacltyrighteous fedchads vs repulsive zeeks
>>24038013The only recorded comment that I've seen is that he thought it was neat but didn't like how the colonies had clear blue skies in most shots.
>>24038289Tomino said the Gundam OVAs and anime he didn't direct are just "borrowing" his Gundam name. They aren't real Gundam. Then Tomino strongly encouraged Sunrise and future anime creators to make new and original anime. He is concerned that Sunrise leans too heavily on Gundam doesn't diversify.
>>24037986>The moment you have "good guys" fighting for the genocidal side it becomes very easy to romanticize the entire faction and you see a lot of this later on.This literally what Feddiefags do.>Even in Tomino's writing there's a surprising lack of generalized hatred for Zeon.cause 'Zeon bad, Federation good' is a braindead fucking notion that comes from people taking in supplementary materials and stuff from other non-Tomino Gundam. Watch the opening narration, both sides are explicitly said to be responsible for half of humanity dying, Whitebase is forced to fight as decoy against Zeon and Kai even comments that the next enemy will be Federation.
>>24032654Zeon are as close as you can get to making Imperial Japan the villains without pissing off all the WW2 veterans who were very much still alive and politically relevant in 1979
>>24038294>I'm allowed to keep rehashing Gundam and making shitty anime that damage the brand (F91, Victory, G-Reco) but nobody else is allowed to make peak fiction (0080, 0083, 00) even though that was never what the contracts saidUh huh.
>>24038305>cause 'Zeon bad, Federation good' is a braindead fucking notion that comes from people taking in supplementary materials and stuff from other non-Tomino Gundam. Watch the opening narration, both sides are explicitly said to be responsible for half of humanity dyingExactly. Tomino even made the Federation the bad guys in the sequel anime Zeta Gundam. The AEUG became the new rebel space group, and Spacenoids were suddenly good guys. He reversed everything.
>>24038328retard
>>24038363Sick of people trying to rehabilitate F91 in particularThat movie fucking sucks and no amount of spinoff material changes that
>>24038289I've seen before that he said this about the skies, but it struck me as a little weird because I could swear early 0079 sometimes seems like it has blue skies when Side 7 is shown. Or at least it doesn't feel like there's much visual indication of them actually being inside a colony except during like extreme distance shots from space.I remember this because on my first watch of 0079 it really confused me, that they're saying it's a colony, and showing it's a colony, but then it seems to have a normal Earth sky when you're actually inside it.Though later in the series I remember you can at least actually see the other side of Side 6 in the sky at night, so that was nice.
>>24038328>even though that was never what the contracts said The contracts Tomino was forced to sign are technically unenforceable and illegal. It's been a major unresolved issue between Tomino and Bandai for decades. Tomino considered taking them to court many times to get the original contracts thrown out and restore his ownership of Gundam.
>>24038377I'm almost positive that the episodes set on Texas Colony had blue skies.
>>24038289One other comment was the children being out during a wartime alert. Tomino thought that school resuming with combat in such close proximity was unrealistic, when a more sensible response should have been to close the school immediately and guide the children to shelters.This would make sense cause the story was written by a Gainaxfag whose otaku generation was removed from the one immediately after WWII.
>>24038259No, it's not, as evidenced by the stuff in >>24037509
>half of humanity wiped out in a week due to repeated nuclear exchanges>war pretty much over, the peace treaty is ready to be signed>guy who got himself captured and his fleet decimated breaks out of jail and announces he's done the math and if they keep throwing bodies at the problem zeon will run out first>this somehow brings morale to an all time high, treaty is torn up and feddies print modified space pods like a RTS player mashing train unit to buy time with bodies>it works, thanks to everyone of note dying and one conscripted child soldier
>>24038864>guy who got himself captured and his fleet decimated breaks out of jail and announces he's done the math and if they keep throwing bodies at the problem zeon will run out first This is what gets me. This guy would be considered a disgrace who didn't go down with his ship and led millions of soldiers to get killed. Not some inspirational hero.
>>24038780It is. I never said the Federation was wholly good; that was not my point, it was that the protagonists are heroic, and the organizations they work within are at least decent enough for them to work some good in the world. Everyone ITT is just talking past each other, that post you quoted took my statement "Zeon is evil" where I clearly meant its cause was unjust due to the rule of the Zabis, and replied with "B-BUT WHAT ABOUT RAMBA RAL!?" Rank retardation. I'll admit I may not have used the phrase "unambiguous good guys" in the OP if I had known that discussions about toy commercials were such serious business.
>>24039035its just funny to watch the zeek cope when you throw the actual, literal canon at them.the fact that the franchise itself ignores it and has a blatant favoritism for zeon is what makes it so easy to farm (you)s
>>24039043>>24039035>>24039032Stop pretending to be multiple people. It's too obvious.
>>24039035>where I clearly meant its cause was unjust due to the rule of the ZabisNo, that was not clear. Saying Zeon was pure evil, in particular in response to "Zeon was unambiguously portrayed as villains in the original series, thats a fact" does not at all sound like saying specially the Zabi regime was unjust. >and replied with "B-BUT WHAT ABOUT RAMBA RAL!?" Rank retardation.No, I didn't. The Zeon rank-and-file being normal and/or decent people is a constant element throughout most of the show. I'm not talking about "the good ones," I'm talking about almost fucking all of them. It is not retardation to acknowledge a point the show is making; if anything it's retardation to insist that it's not doing so. >I'll admit I may not have used the phrase "unambiguous good guys" in the OP if I had known that discussions about toy commercials were such serious business.Who would have thought mecha would be serious business on the board about mecha? That's just wild.
>>24039035kys faggot
Based on what I saw in later anime, I wonder if Zeon would have been better off winning the war or at least securing a large amount of territory. Federation politicians ran the Federation in the ground numerous times. Zeon's only issue is succession. They never have a designated heir which leads to constant infighting. That can be solved with proper royal governance. Do what Royalty normally does on Earth and it would solve most issues.
>>24039373Even if there was a heir, what stops them from simply killing the heir and assuming control at an opportune time?
>>24039410The same thing that stops Royals from killing each other in places like the UK and Europe. Legitimacy and Backing. You need an actual claim to the throne for people to support you.
>>24039410Nothing. That's what happened during Zeta when the Federation split apart and started killing each other.
Shocking: the “both sides bad” franchise portrays both sides as bad.
>>24039373>They never have a designated heirIt's really funny because they actually do, but he is a retarded asshole.
>>24038994Because the speech he gave wasn't just "throw bodies at the problem", it was "do you really want to let these tired, insane madmen win? cause I sure don't!">Fellow Earth Federation citizens! Fellow survivors! I appeal to you all. Zeon is exhausted! It is low on troops! Low on ships, weapons, and even ammunition! Why then, I ask you, should we surrender? Dear fellow citizens, our true enemy is no longer Zeon, but our own weak-kneed civilian leaders. Hiding behind some notion of "absolute democracy", they are reduced to absolute indecision. Why should we, the survivors of this horrible war, entrust them with the power to make decisions for us!?>How can we forget the arrogance of Degwin Sodo Zabi, when he usurped power in Zeon? He claimed that the people of Zeon are a "chosen people". That we of the Earth Federation are hidebound by archaic ways of thinking, and incapable of realizing the new potential for an expanded human consciousness in outer space. That there is no need for the people of Zeon to obey an "Earth Federation" run by out-modeled human relics! Well, fellow citizens, even though I am a member of our armed forces, I have to admit that if Degwin was referring to our corrupt Earth Federation bureaucrats, he was correct.>But, fellow citizens, we must not be deceived by Degwin Zabi simply because part of what he says is true. Zeon may be the Side farthest away from Earth, but that is no reason to believe its leader's prattle about communing with the universe!1/3
>>24039702>Degwin Zabi must not be allowed to justify his vision of Zeon because of corruption in one part of our Federation. His words are dogma, the dogma of a man plotting a dynasty of Zabi dictators on Zeon. Even if we do the unthinkable, and recognize the existence of the Zeon dictatorship, that in no sense means we must also sink to our knees before it! The Earth Federation is a government, founded on the premise of sovereign individual rights. Mankind, furthermore, was able to advance into outer space as a result of the Federation government, which is itself a crystallization of all mankind’s accumulated knowledge and experience.>Now, Degwin’s son, Gihren Zabi, says it is the weak and inept Earth Federation itself that must be destroyed! Well, let him go ahead and try. Strike at the heart of our weakness! But what right does he - who slaughtered four billion innocent people - have to strike such a righteous pose?>Gihren Zabi tells us that mankind has violated the laws of nature by reproducing more than any other species. He tells us that mankind’s population growth must be managed, because mankind must learn to inhabit the universe in harmony with nature. He tells us that the death of four billion people was merely expiation for our past sins against nature.>Is Gihren mad? What does he possibly think the human race - an entire species - could gain from exterminating itself?! There is nothing to gain! No! Gihren is a despot trying to exterminate the very source of life that has supported and nurtured him. We, of the Federation, shall never comprehend the monstrosity of his actions.2/3
>>24039703>And now Gihren threatens to crash Luna II onto Earth unless we surrender to him. What basis does he have for his demand?! Is he in possession of some sort of absolute truth? No! He possesses nothing more than his own demented dogma. Is the entire Federation completely enfeebled, corrupt, and degenerate? Again, the answer is no. Many good, capable citizens have fought bravely against the threat from Zeon, and we are still strong and alive!! So, then, does Zeon actually possess an overwhelming military superiority over the Federation? Again, the answer is NO!>Fellow citizens! Listen to what I say! Gihren’s threats are a mere bluff. Unworthy as I am of my good fortune, I was captured rather than killed by Zeon forces, and thus was afforded the opportunity to see the Zeon nation first-hand. I therefore can assure you that the people of Zeon are exhausted, and there is no way they can possibly strengthen their forces enough to carry out their threats. So I say to you, Gihren Zabi, if you think you can send Luna II crashing to Earth, well then, go ahead and try!>Zeon’s strength was expended in the Battle of Loum. There is no way they can create soldiers overnight, and Gihren Zabi knows it. I therefore appeal to all the citizens of the Earth Federation, to each and every one of you. Zeon is exhausted! Now is not the time for us to kneel before Zeon. It is time for us to rise! Now, more than ever, is our chance to defeat Zeon! 3/3(From Book #1 of the Mobile Suit Gundam novelization by Yoshiyuki Tomino)
>>24039703>who slaughtered four billion innocent people - have to strike such a righteous pose?Man, this is the thing. It's insane how this is barely brought up. Even the Titans at least tried to hide what they were doing, which is why Quattro's speech had a big impact..
>>24039373>Based on what I saw in later anime, I wonder if Zeon would have been better off winning the war or at least securing a large amount of territory.Based on general history Governments, no matter the form, had a hard time running nations that span across distance that they can't communicate in proper timeIf a solely democratic institution like the earth federation can't control the general state of affairs by democratic process even before OWY that led to the war, nothing will stop ambitious people from attempting control against zeon from other side of the know universe
>>24039702>Because the speech he gave wasn't just "throw bodies at the problem", it was "do you really want to let these tired, insane madmen win? cause I sure don't!" The speech doesn't really work when 8 to 9 billion people (half of humanity) is already dead.The speech would work BEFORE all that death. It's a rallying speech. But does not have the same effect afterwards.
>>24039735It works because it's not just a rallying cry against Zeon, it's one against Gihren. Revell blames him for the deaths of four billion people, and his call to not let him get away with it resonates with the rest of the Earth Federation. He's the most evil man in history and has killed more people than anyone else, he (and by proxy the Zeon forces he commands) cannot be allowed to live.
>>24037496Are you real?
>>24039735This speech was given in January of the one year war, after one week of fighting humanity had been cut down to half its size and the federation had no answer to the mobile suit problem. The Gundam isn't set to show its face for 8 months.
>>24039786You clearly didn't watch 0083 and ZZ. Colony drops can be precision strikes.
>>24039970Are you really?
>>24039988In English please.
>>24038377The side 6 scene with Amuro meeting Lalah also showed a downcast raining sky.
i always laugh at these retarded LARP/ERP-tier threads of people pretending like there's any depth to the conflict of UC gundam. the show itself basically portrays zeon as completely in the wrong, or at the very best they took things way too far by killing half of humanity in a hissy fit even if their original leaders may have had noble intentions. gundam is not deep, but the average ironic weeb like 99% of you faggots feels like you need to have depth in a cartoon to justify it, when it's just a hobby and you're allowed to enjoy something as light entertainment.
>>24040777>the show itself basically portrays zeon as completely in the wrong"Completely"? It doesn't.>or at the very best they took things way too far by killing half of humanityThey weren't alone. The Federation killed their fair share in nuclear exchanges with Zeon, using Colonies as human shields, and blowing up the dropping colony which caused massively more damage instead of just hitting Jaburo.
>>24037977Right, because Zeon acquired a colony through totally legitimate means, no genocide involved. And I'm sure they issued a warning to the people of Island Iffish. Oh wait
>>24040935Right because I'm sure the Federation didn't gas any colonies themselves and didn't do any colony drops either. Oh wait how's Zeta Gundam going?
>>24040926>"Completely"? It doesn't.zeon are unambiguously the antagonists throughout the entire series, and then in future series. furthermore the leadership is portrayed as thoroughly irredeemable and having no admirable aspects beyond degwin being semi-reasonable, but then gihren kills his own father and cements zeon as irredeemable. there's no debate to be had, there's no "both sides" or grey morality bullshit. look at their fucking palace, dr. hell in mazinger didn't even have such a garishly evil building and his name is literally "hell". zeon are not meant to be remotely sympathetic at any point. >They weren't alone. The Federation killed their fair share in nuclear exchanges with Zeon, using Colonies as human shields, and blowing up the dropping colony which caused massively more damage instead of just hitting Jaburo.none of this is in the original show aside from them trying to destroy the colony, and to pretend like it was better to let the colony just wipe out half of south america (which has at least 10x the population of australia i might add) rather than attempt to destroy the colony or at least divert it to somewhere less populated is actual retardation and trying too hard to seek depth in a show meant for 13 year olds. gundam isn't deep, and that's fine until pseudointellectuals like yourself spend 20 years making the same shit LARP threads pretending to be "le ebic zeon alpha wolf pilot" and pretending like there's something where there's nothing.
>>24040944>furthermore the leadership is portrayed as thoroughly irredeemable and having no admirable aspects beyond degwinGarma, Kycilia, and Dozle are portrayed with admirable aspects
>>24040944>zeon are unambiguously...That's not what you wrote. Stop shifting the goal post and own your words. >half of south americaHa. At best it would leave a crater where Jaburo was. Colonies can't destroy entire continents. 0083 and ZZ proved that. >which has at least 10x the population of australia i might add)Not in UC Gundam. You also seem to forget half of humanity left the earth and depopulated the planet. South America is a backwater. Which is what the Federation wanted to keep Jaburo away from nearby cities and prying eyes
>>24040941>But the feddies in Zeta did it too!Yeah, they did. By following Zeon's own fucking playbook. And guess what? That screwed them over so bad, that they became unwilling to ever pull that shit again. You know who kept to their genocidal ways? Zeon did
>>24040951>Ha. At best it would leave a crater where Jaburo was. Colonies can't destroy entire continents.The impact of this colony opened a hole in Australia, it's much larger than any of the later colony drops in UC itself for whatever reason, and that wasn't the full colony.
seems like you aspergers-having dipshits are missing the point: there is no grey morality in gundam, zeon are just dr. hell and his merry band of never-do-wells but not purple and/or literal monsters like baron ashura or count brocken. this is because gundam is a show for 13 year olds, and is not meant to display any depth. to pretend otherwise for nearly 50 years now is simply pathetic.
>>24040972there is grey morality in gundam though and the zeon faction isnt as monolithic as dr. hells army nor is the federation purely good but actually quite corrupt
>>24040977dr hell's army isn't monolithic, there's even a few nice kikaiju that don't want to destroy the city and baron ashura fights with brocken all the time. kouji is an asshole towards sayaka at times as well. it's basically the same amount of depth gundam villains and protagonists have, yet no-one is out here larping as dr. hell's kikaiju or justifying them. it's not that deep, neither is gundam. gundam is just mazinger if it wasn't entertaining.
>>24040972incredible you accuse other people of having aspgergers when you yourself are separating things in terms of black and white
>>24040972Are the Hathaway movies for 13 year olds?
>>24040982i'm not the spastic larping as if i'm a fucking inhabitant of UC gundam and arguing "zeon is actually... le GOOD!". there's plenty of great shows with grey morality in this world, in the mecha genre. there's plenty of nuance in actual history as well. gundam does not have any nuance, it's a show for 13 year olds and zeon is basically just as one-note evil as the dinosaur empire in getter, or dr hell as i've been saying. 0079 is fine, but let's not pretend it's better than it is and make up shit, and let's not have another cringeworthy LARP thread like this where people passionately argue retarded bullshit.
>>24040985>and zeon is basically just as one-note evil as the dinosaur empire in getterIs this guy evil? He's a Zeon officer.
>>24040987he's a groomer taking advantage of a kid who's colony he tried to destroy, not sure how you thought this was a compelling argument. i mean, you're a fat discord-using loser who larps as a gundam character and probably wants to molest a young boy too, so i can see why you don't see him as evil, but he is along with all the zeeks in that show. might as well be another mindless kikaiju in dr hells forces.
>>24040956>That screwed them over so bad, that they became unwilling to ever pull that shit again.What are you talking about? The Federation rebuilt the colony laser and fired it on their own citizens.
>>24040994Point taken, I forgot about Unicorn. What happened with the colony laser after that?
>>24040777>they took things way too far by killing half of humanityopinion discarded.
>>24040972>>24040985Do you just roll your eyes and look away from screen whenever Zeon soldiers are shown getting humanised? There's a reason staff specifically avoided the norm of aliens during production of the show and opted for human vs human conflict.
>>24040997Asakura is a turbo-faggot
>>24041005>Point taken, I forgot about Unicorn. What happened with the colony laser after that?It's still there. Bright didn't do anything about it even though he threatened to expose the weapon to the whole world and start a rebellion if they fired the laser. They fired it anyway. They even laughed in his face.
>>24041016there are nice and honourable kikaiju in dr. hell's forces who don't destroy the city, so i guess that means dr. hell is actually also a nuanced villain and deserves the same level of "dr. hell dindu nuffin" shit zeon gets. oh wait, we as human beings obviously recognise that he is the antagonist and no-one spends 40 years larping about being a civilian in the photon labs being like "actually maybe dr hell has a point because photon labs are greedy capitalists who didn't share their chougoukin z with dr hell!" all i'm saying is that zeon are an even less entertaining or fun version of dr hell and should be treated as such. oh, and dr hell and his early cronies are human too, so...
>>24032459They were written from the beginning as both a stand in for LotGH's FPA and the real life UN. Them being anything like the Star Trek Federation or UN Spacey is itself the revision.
>>24040777>>24040944Zeon represents self-determination versus having the space UN ran by the WEF telling you how to run your country from the other side of the solar system. It's the same as the Brotherhood of Nod versus the GDI or Insurrectionists versus the UNSC. Where's the former examples are all purely fictional policies, the latter all carry the baggage of having their origins in a group who has ruffled many peoples' jimmies over the decades of their existence, so watching a fictionalized version of them eat shit provides catharsis.
>>24041051>GDI = based>UNSC =based>UN= cringe2/3 aint bad you cock obsessed chaos seeking zigger lover
>>24041051headcanon and later fanfiction from other authors don't count. in the original show, and even in other tomino gundam shows, zeon are a slightly (and i emphasise slightly based on shit like this >>24040944 and some of the MOTW mobile armours) less comically evil villain faction. it would be better to stop pretending like you have a stake in this and arguing like you're on fictional /pol/, or at the very least do it for a series where there's actual nuance to the villains like dougram or even the show right after 0079, ideon. because the "grey morality" you think exists in gundam doesn't. it's not deep.
>>24041038Wait a second, but the novel LotGH was based on was published in the 80sIf anything LotGH ends up foreshadowing how large international policies like the Federation or FPA eventually break down from a conflict of interest in their constituent parts: the FPA just had the misfortune of doing so before beating its opposition.
>>24033591But that isn't the situation. A better analogy would be replacing the bank robbers with terrorists, them having a giant poison gas bomb, and them demanding the government surrender to them or they will release the gas. Blowing up the block is the moral action in that scenario (not that C4ing a bank would do much to the surrounding buildings let alone the block).
