When did the point of divergence happen between western mechs and eastern mechas? Who started the box with legs trend and how did western mechs look before that?
,>box with legs>westernMETAL GEAR?!?!
>>24037908Western mechs were always all over the place, between more fanciful stuff like War of the World tripods or Forbidden Planet Robbies to more "realistic" affairs like the AT-ATs in ESB or BSG's Cylons. The chickenwalker has its routes in the AT-ST, but the definite patient zero for modern "Western mecha" design is Battletech/Mechwarrior, which in turn just lifted Japanese mechs like the Glaug from Macross and gave them a fresh coat of paint.tl;dr, anyone who gives a fuck about whether a mecha comes from the east or west because they both have a wide range of concepts and can't just be boiled down to two general ideas.
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https://strangewars.livejournal.com/4552.htmlhttps://ameblo.jp/addicto/image-12032874325-10231330114.html
>>24037919When people say "Western mech" they're literally just referring to Battletech.
>>24037919>>24038072Indeed, and the type of movement associated with 'tanks with legs' came about primarily due to the technical limitations inherent in the early Mechwarrior vidya gaems.
>>24037919considering the specific series that battletech's early designs were (incorrectly) licensed from>Macross>Dougram>Crusher Joeyou could really just say the divergence point is whether they're based on the specific wave of "real robot" design philosophy that came out in the wake of Gundam's success in the early-mid 80si'd say that the divergence is more that the in-vogue mecha style in japan continued to evolve, but since mecha never really caught on in america so it's comparatively stagnantthere's even variation within battletech from the "expected" design ethos, but they're not exactly well known, ya know
You can kind of just keep reducing it. A lot of the stereotype comes very specifically from the older mechwarrior games that were clan-focused. Clans more often use mechs with less humanoid shapes, and so a bunch of people whose only interaction with mecha and even with battletech's universe comes from that. This leads to "western mecha don't have heads or hands, they're like tanks on legs!", which isn't even accurate for the thing they're talking about, they just aren't very familiar with the setting.
>>24037908The earliest mecha was Talos from Greek Myth, basically just a big man made of bronze. The legitimate first scifi mech was Tripod from War of the World.
It is funny how a large chunk of Western mechs were just aping Maschinen Krieger. AT ST might have been the god father of chicken mecha but it was clean as fuck and coated in white primer. Ma.K actually introduced the weighty and old rusty aesthetic to western mecha.
>>24037908>When did the point of divergence happen between western mechs and eastern mechas?Non-Japanese giant robot fiction basically isn't a thing, so the question really is moot.
>>24038285Star Wars stuff and MAK both originate from kitbashing WW2 plastic model kits.
>>24038221Ah, another Harmony Gold simp. They lost, they were always lying, deal with it.
>>24038474There's some stuff like Pacific rim, Titanfall and Battletech.
>>24038551The point being that there aren't enough of them to trigger the formation of a stable genre which could branch off from the Japanese standard.It ain't like Fantasy, where the influence of the Wizardry universe is particularly clear and distinct within the Japanese material.
Mechs were created in west. "Wheel tank" created in ru empire was a bit similar to mech.
>>24038168>>24038072It also came about because that was the style of simulation games of the day.
>>24038497what
>>24038278If you take an interpretation of The Epic of Attra-Hassis to point, the Metal Men ar the first.
>>24038962i'll take it. also there's a reason why priest-kings allgedly brought statues of nergal and shamash to battle. dudes were actually super robots ready to go. especially the latter, you just know utu was laying down some daitarn 3 damage
>>24039002Sitchen was a failed sci fi writer. But his ideas were kinda kino.
>>24037919Yeah, even if one place didn't come up with such concept, another would have done it instead given enough time and/or resources.
>>24038072Which is funny as Battletech is directly derived from Macross.
What caused the greebilification of eastern mechas?
I imagine the boxy nature of the AT-ST and AT-AT in Star Wars had a large influence on western designs for Sci-Fi.
>>24041066And Dougram. And Crusher Joe
>>24041651Chinese model kit customer preferences
>>24041651>>24041760Katoki and the proliferation of CAD for both design and model kit production.
>>24041651Designers have been taught that clean surfaces are negative space and must be filled with "design"
>>24038962>>24039002Elaborate.
>>24041985The Great War. Conflict described before the rise of mankind in Sumerian legend. When the “gods” strived for who was going to run the place.
>>24037908Should it even be called western vs eastern anymore? Armored core has both in it. Gundam has the tieren. Most of the mechs in EDF are walking tanks. Japan doesn't do just humanoid stuff anymore.
You need more than a western/eastern distinction.You need to take into account the intent of the authors, An author who never cared for realism will go for artistic design common in his country.Authors caring about realism may see their designs converge simply because form follow function.
>>24043848Ah yes, the old argument
>>24043883well none of the old retro sci fi style aged gracefully. There's a reason star wars still looked great while star trek in comparison feels dated.
>>24044080Arguable if you still remember that before the greeble, before the used future, before we went to the moon, sci fi was partially fantasy
>>24042235>Japan doesn't do just humanoid stuff anymore.Even Macross had stuff like the "monster". Japan is more known for the humanoid robot just because they're more popular, it was never an issue of them not being willing/able to do the walking tank thing.
>>24043883I see no difference.>RightThe "flying saucer" is a legitimate flying car today, you could have those carried in sky-crane fashion by The vertical rocket can land on the moon and explain the 2nd stage as an independent reentry vehicle, it's basically a SpaceX Starship if it had a nuclear propulsion allowing casual travel.The habitat could just be a cut from an independent habitat module part of series of hub linked by magnetic railway, the "outer space" represent the 3D imagery you can choose to make appearThe spaceship on the lower right clearly use centripetal gravity, add an interchangeable engine-module and it's a valid orbit-to-orbit ship.Even if the artist is a hack, he's still surrounded by design that were sound at the time, just spiced up for tech-illiterate public who think there's Jungle on Venus.His other drawing are simple because he could be asked to make easy-to-produce toys.>LeftWhile taking inspiration directly from the source, he's still making concession for artistic reasonsHe seem to be taking inspiration from 2 rather bland games, Front Mission design is uninspired crap, don't even know the otherMetal Gear is a masterpiece of design but it did focus a lot on being a big menacing T-Rex enemyThe Elysium-like robot is unrealistic in that engineer would likely not limit themselves to humanoid design if they don't have too.The artist may have disputable inspiration and likely won't be an engineer either, he put effort in his art based on modern expectation.With internet he could access the atomic rocket website and quickly make spaceship more realistic. But apparently he's paid to make mecha for games.https://projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/
>>24044299>a legitimate flying car todayThat not even the billionaire class owns flying cars should be telling enough.
>>24044345anyone who wants to fly can just buy a cessna and just fly it themselves. most rich people who personally fly already do that as a hobby, and if they don't care for piloting a plane themselves, flying in a private jet is just so much more comfortable than any flying car because you can get up and lie down and stretch and walk around and eat meals and take a shit whenever you want. long car rides are a pain in the ass even if you aren't the driver.the flying car dream is a fantasy for regular schmos because they imagine they can fly over traffic jams or get home faster without being screwed by tolls or caught speeding by cops or whatever the fuck shitty commute they endure to get to their workplace and get errands done, but that's not how it works. if the average fuck can afford a flying car, then everyone can afford a flying car. all the problems you have with a car on the road reappear with your flying car in the sky-lanes, with the added bonus of danger due to altitude and gravity. some people can barely drive a car adequately because cars moving in two dimensions on a flat road is already too difficult for their smoothbrains, imagine how fucked they are if they have to add a third dimension of maneuvering to that, you'd hear about some dumbass flying into buildings or crashing into terrain on the news as often as car crashes happen on the road. the only way in hell a mass market flying car works for everyone is if they develop 100% start-to-finish autopilot including landing and parking, but at that point it just becomes a glorified taxi ride
>>24044299The argument was for the look anon. It seemed to diverge around the end of the 60s onward and was solidified as sadly, a standard by SW popularity.>>24044358What if some of us like driving?
>>24044345Flying car CONCEPT, fine.Not saying flying cars will become common, soon.But >>24043883 could very well be a transport drone able to lift a crew pod.Just look at Dubai flying taxi, or India, actually there's plan for flying taxi everywhere, even in France.The biggest blocker is becoming more and more laws and regulations, and yes it's a giant.I don't think we'll even allow flying delivery drone in cities. Hell, civilian remote are on their way to become illegal.>>24044358No doubt you couldn't allow anyone to drive those without an autopilot and enforced flight volume/path, like you know, roads, except enforced by computer and stricter protection against hacking.3D flight would actually be easier to understand than convoluted road. No obstacles, just a direction, autopilot refuse any illegal order, automated TCAS, pre-requisite is having the drone able to recognize an acceptable landing surface.I see more problem with flock of birds (isn't it Sully?).Even more than the car industry we knew, taxi-drone would require a intertwined system of systems of systems. You'd not own a private flying-car, it would be a service.Batteries are getting stronger and stronger, we could in theory get a x10 improvements, but none of our cities are built to allow safe flyby, let alone noise.Remind me an old Sci-Fi book "City" where flying car supposedly allowed everyone to spread and live isolated (eventually all of mankind are replaced by smart dogs)
>>24044672As much as I recognize SOCIAL INERTIA and blame corporation pumping the same Franchised design over and over and over and over and over...I don't think there's any decade long trend or a clean divergence.SF design often converge because they simply make sense or are easier to make, even if the setting/story is arbitrary.
>>24044678>3D flight would actually be easier to understand than convoluted road.Would it really? You're already speaking of it like a nearly fully automated process, not something a person would do manually. Riding a transport is easier to understand than controlling a motorized vehicle for the most, and that's just going by largely 2D movement.>No obstacles>problem with flock of birdsYeah, you almost got it. What are wildlife, wind, weather, BAD weather, varying air pressure, other air traffic, trees, buildings and other high reaching or otherwise hazardous landscape features?>autopilot refuse any illegal order>pre-requisite is having the drone able to recognize an acceptable landing surfaceGood luck being stuck in the air during fog, rain or heavy wind because your drone car can't recognize an acceptable landing surface or has too much difficulty compensating for outside forces and you either can't or don't know how to disengage the autopilot, not to mention whether or not you have the skill to as much as attempt a manual landing, in these conditions or even at all.Anyway, take any problem with aviation, or even just avionics and apply it on a personal scale, then extrapolate it over the general population. Wouldn't that be fun?
>>24044704>Would it really? You're already speaking of it like a nearly fully automated process,Because there's no alternative than a 90% automatization. It's not like you'd fly a 8-rotor drones by controlling each engine.Interfaces & lack of automation/computers are what defined (past tense) helicopters and aircraft designs, that and only human could sense/understand their surrounding.Nowadays, there's "automated" car and their environments is incredibly more difficult than the sky. You could AI-train a landing-lidar to recognize shapes for emergency landing.The market will be thin but could exist. The hardest part will be to find a way to allows temporary landing spot.I'm more worried by criminal use of unmanned drones.>wildlifeActually I'd only expect trouble from big flock capable of destroying every blades at once. Bird strike happen mostly because of speed.>wind, weather, BAD weather, varying air pressure1st: half of those are only a problem for aircraft that rely on aerodynamic, less for a pure-thrust lifter.2nd: we have automated weather stations, trigger a warning, remote bureau check, forbid take-off in an area, autopilot cannot get take-off authorization.>other air trafficAnything that fly has a transponder (TCAS) and GPS position, if it get lost: inertial sensor backtrack while descending.>trees, buildings and other high reaching or otherwise hazardous landscape features?Forbid flight in any GPS area you have not defined, it's not common to have 100m tall building.>don't know how to disengage the autopilotIt's a feature.The autopilot would have to authorize (desperately) the user to have collision-authority and only authorize slow movement.SUDDEN SMOKE from a fire blind too many sensors at once: emergency mode kick in, backtrack based on inertial sensor, send signal that push back any other flier while calling a remote-pilot far away.
>>24044260It should be noted that aside from the stuff used in Battletech, TCI was importing tons of model kits from Japan and that included all the funky enemy mecha that needed to be cleared out to make space for the next season. Fasa probably had a lot Sunrise mecha kits around the office to borrow ideas from too.
>>24044683Is it dying anon? If so, did Star Wars or Trek or Gundam or…what? There has been what seems a pulling away. Where is the wonder anymore or is that just fooling and childlike hope for a story that has nothing more to add? Picrel was tongue in cheek nearly a century ago, and we advanced so quick to the modern difference, but now, science fiction, at least in space opera is just as dead and cyberpunk is rearing a head far uglier than Gibson et al could image (and, predictably, far more boring). It’s not coming back is it?
>>24044678>>24044749“Catastrophe today as a multiple aerotrans failure crashed some 50 vehicles into downtown buildings during rush hour killing 14000”. Sorry, but I don’t have a future city image with traffic
>>24044980Problem today is that with Internet and social network, brands last for as long as there's someone behind to push it. Advertising and bots shill the same brand over and over and over... At this rate you'll still have Gundam in the year 2230, remake of Origin's remake... Also we have to accept that Cyberpunk include a retro genre because technologies caught up, sometime far ahead, the only way to rationalize those settings as the future involve saying the internet crumbled and was replaced by something much more rigid where anonymity no longer exist unless you are in fact, a top level pirate with connections.
>>24044982Ah yes, no different from the 50 automated Tesla car simultaneously getting "failure" that disable every single safety then make them swerve into crowds.Remember when car were invented? They still haven't invented brakes or a way to strap yourself to your seat.And when trains were invented? Trains fail to brake and keep switching to the wrong rails.And airplane? Oh god, I wish we could have a week without airliners plowing into building.Don't get me started on 20 boats sinking simultaneously or crashing into bridges.
>>24037908The lack of appreciation from the Western side for the mechanical designers.
>>24045249You're being disingenuous. Early cars moved at a running pace. Early trains had a tendency for the boilers to explode. Two 737 MAXs crashed in short order fairly recently because of an update and poor documentation (Boeing managed to entirely avoid responsibility for that despite a guilty plea, incidentally). Samsung pushed a faulty update and broke thousands of fridges. The capacity to fuck up at scale is only increasing, especially as safety regulations and inspection agencies are gutted.
>>24045269>call me disingenuous>kill more people than 9/11 with a "failure" that would require not just deep active sabotage but loading explosive into 50 flying carsYour double standard is staggering and I actually work in the aeronautic industry.If you were honest:"Catastrophe today, a single aerotrans crashed, despite minimizing flight over habitations a string of coincidence caused a dozen of victim, other aerotran detected the signal loss and avoided the area, let's remind everyone that statistically the Autopiloted aerotran are safer than cars."Take any risk, there's obvious safeguard for them.Mass production actually help figuring out mistakes much faster, you'd push the update on unmanned cargo first. Sure we could have a Musktard making a dangerous flying cybertruck, but its dangerous nature will attract attention quickly.
>>24045244Imagine then a best of the internet being for a certain few where they will get to live their space operas seen fit in some kinda VR while the rest of us pleabs shit an bitch on threads that are regulated to hell? I recall someone saying we will get the Holodeck before the Enterprise
>>24045249That was a good episode Warlockracy did
>>24045300Let’s give the average Joe the ability to fly their car
>>24045300>>24045350Let's give the Average Joe the ability to fly their car to pick up their kids from school.
>>24045403Always wondered, what would her face be if it was 60 TRILLION Nigs?
>>24037908Since before Christ.
