I feel like having a nice long discussion about the Elements Of Harmony. There's much about them to be said, and we can take this convo anywhere really. Just talk about whatever fancies you. To this day, I suspect a huge chunk of the fandom doesn't actually fully understand the point of the Elements. I see way too many people who appear to think the characteristics of the Elements are essentially just random personality traits. They're supposed to be "the traits that are most strongly necessary in order to maintain a good friendship/in order for social harmony to exist". Like the phrase "Elements Of Harmony" literally just means "the individual pieces that are needed for positive social cooperation and good interpersonal development".
>>43320670>"the traits that are most strongly necessary in order to maintain a good friendship/in order for social harmony to exist"Do people really not know the word "virtue"?
>>43320683You apparently don't since that's not what they are lmao
I didn't watch enough of the later seasons to really know much about them. . . Help me assign Elements to them?It's hard, Sandbar Ocellus and Silverstream could all easily be Kindness for example
>>43320733You can't assign anything to them because none of them are canon.
>>43320741you're not canon >:'(
>>43320733From left to right: chastity, spergitude, femininity, pride, tolerance, and wholesomeness
>>43320765pride isn't a virtue.
>>43320670the virtues celestia names in magical mystery cure generally fit better than the normal elements, both as "elements of harmony" and in terms of fitting their bearers. but i really hate leadership. it's almost as bad as the most literal interpretations of magic and laughter. i really wish it was "unity" or something like that.
>>43320733https://desuarchive.org/mlp/thread/36509381/#36510388This thread tries to assign Elements to the Student Six. In short, the students lack the characterization needed to become elements, yet they were dubiously made elements anyways. The later season had poor writing, who knew?
>>43320766Yeah, it's an element. Thanks for the unnecessary insight.
>>43320716>Honesty, kindness, loyalty, and generosity aren't virtues
>>43320733Easiest is Silverstream who is obviously Laughter.Sandbar could be Loyalty because of his trial in What Lies Beneath and his behaviour in School Raze.The others are a toss-up.I feel like Yona would make sense as Honesty. She is often the one that takes initiative and tolerates the least bullshit. She's All Yak could be interpreted to be something about Yona being honest with who she really is.Magic is really tricky. Sandbar would be an obvious choice since he is the pony of the group and sort of their leader, but Idk.I feel like you could do something like juxtapose the negative traits of their species to be their Element. So Gallus would be Generosity since griffons are normally jews and Smolder would be Kindness because dragons are normally cruel.And then Ocellus is just Magic, solved. Ocellus is just so underdevelopped. She could be Kindness alternatively because she is le quiet one. Magic I always interpreted as meaning placing trust in your friends. Her trial in What Lies Beneath involved her needing support from one of her friends so that's something.
>>43320733>Gallus - griffin - Pride>Silverstream - hippogriff - ???>Smolder - dragon - Greed>Yona - yak - Wrath>Sandbar - pony - Lust>Ocellus - changeling - EnvyHippogriffs are a cross of pony and griff, so one would think they would be a mix of lust and pride.Though their behavior in the movie might make cowardice their vice.
>>43320670In a show that more long-term planning in it, the Elements could have been a response to Equestrian social crises. They would change over time to fit what Equestria needed to continue to thrive. I'm fine with the Elements not having constancy. Equestria in the past didn't need the Elements presented in the show because Equestria was in a more primitive state at the time. Instead, the Elements the Pillars needed were ideals that create a long-term empire (for lack of a better term) with a strong foundational ethos. Equestria in its infancy needed fundamental, broad virtues like strength and bravery (might), sorcery and beauty (mind), and hope and healing (soul). Once Equestria was established, and it received their goddesses, the Elements would have slowly begun to change not yet into the Elements G4 had in modern times, but into what they needed to be in preparation for the dyarchy.As >>43320782 pointed out, MMC had Celestia list leadership, charity, compassion, devotion, integrity, and optimism as key virtues. Again, in a better planned show, these could have been what the Elements turned into after the Pillars had accomplished their tasks. These were what Celestia and Luna needed in order to shape Equestria into something perpetual. Having the sisters fall out with each other because Luna did not feel her leadership recognized, didn't feel the ponies were devoted to her, felt her charitable contributions were unrecognized, believed her devotion to their well-being was being wasted, thought that the ponies under her care lacked integrity and only pretended to love her, which in turn ended her compassion for them and her sister and got rid of her optimism would justify the tragedy of her willfully becoming Nightmare Moon. Again, in a better planned show, Luna would have become NMM by choice, rather than being tricked by moon monsters. NMM defeats Celestia and rules Equestria for several years, and during that long absence Celestia is forced to learn how to be a real princess until she has a true understanding of the six virtues. Then she can use the Elements to banish NMM and raise the sun again.Then, the Elements would change again to become what Equestria's future needed. Equestria no longer needed a monarchy/dyarchy because it had grown so large. It needed a meritocratic republic, so the Elements became the six abstract ideas that we're very familiar with. Friendship, generosity, loyalty, kindness, laughter, and honesty are simple concepts that most ponies would understand, which is what a free Equestria needed. By changing, the Elements would stop responding to Celestia, so she could no longer use them to save Equestria. Celestia would still be one of Equestria's goddesses, but she would step down as their leader once Twilight (who would never become an alicorn) and her friends showed regular ponies had learned to live in harmony and deserved to make their own decisions and solve their own problems without her interference.
I've always felt there should be 7 Elements, not 6. The number 7 has a long history of being considered "the most harmonious number/the number closest to god/the number of perfection". The rainbow (traditionally) has 7 colors and the Elements are literally a rainbow. Also it's always weird in pictures when you see Magic in the middle with the other 5 surrounding it. Because when you cluster circles together in real life, this shape is what you get. One keystone Element that binds all the others together in the middle + 6 clustered around it. THAT feels way more like Harmony.And 7 Elements is just way more satisfying isn't it? There's a few ways to do it but it'd either ROYGBIV or it'd be RGB/CMY + either white or rainbow in the center. 2 Pegasi/Unicorns/Earths and then keystone is either an Alicorn or some other species like a dragon. I just think it'd be better :/
>>43320838>other species like a dragonSpike
>>43320838>metaphysical prescriptivismHexagonal packing is optimal on a flat surface. If pentagonal symmetry is evidently more important in Equestria, then the geometry of their magic must be convex. Thus we discovered (and measured?) general relativity, but for horse Harmony instead of our Æther.Or we may go with quasicrystals like Kepler did, and ancient Persians before him. But I kind of believe it's a wrong approach here. Quasicrystals are scary and agoraphobic, it's not what harmony would feel like.>it'd either ROYGBIV or it'd be RGB/CMY + either white or rainbow in the centerAnd yet you chose this picture. You just want to smuggle darkness into the rainbow because you're a dark magic cultist, you.
>>43320670Part of what makes the early seasons, especially the first two episodes, feel so comfy is the Elements of Harmony. It kind of feels like the world itself looking out for our protagonists. Having the universe itself reward you for doing the right thing feels just so nice, even if it is obviously a kids show thing. And then the DEEPEST LORE tying their origin to fucking Starswirl absolutely demolishes that feeling. And by the time we reach Season 9, we just get each of the students glowing random colors sometimes trying to be suggestive of something. Had the writers actually managed to pull it off with the student 6, it might have been nice.
>>43320670What exactly determines what the EOH do? They Moon Luna first, then purify her, they stone Discord twice, send Tirek to Tartarus, but later just take away his and his teammates stolen magic. Does the magic of friendship determine it's punishment based on how a villain can reform? Or maybe just the bare minimum of what is needed to save them? Or is it random?
>>43320670Fuck it I'll bite.Do we know where the elements even come from? So far what we saw friendship wise in equestria has been kick-started by the three tribes uniting and defeating the windigos. So I suppose that'd give 3 core elements at that point? Maybe 4 for magic as well?It'd be interesting to know more how the elements have evolved throughout equestrian history. They seem to be a artifact related to friendship, but friendship itself is the magic that's making equestria even function, as in actual magic that can be harnessed, but the elements don't seem to be necessary at all for friendship to exist.
>>43321552Nevermind I'm retarded. I forgot they went with the "they came from a tree in the everfree forest" explanation. Which makes the princesses feel even more like complete jobbers.
Generosity is literally just a subset of Kindness, it is impossible to be generous without also being kind
>>43321839I mean, Rarity somehow ables to do it nonetheless.
>>43321841No? I'm not saying you need to be a kind person in general to be generous, I'm saying the act of generosity itself IS an act of kindness. You cannot be generous to someone in an unkind way.>but you can give people free stuff while secretly hating them and wanting them to dieThen you weren't actually being generous. Giving someone free stuff =\= generosity. Generosity is when you give something away kindly. It's literally by definition a compassionate act. If you give some something UNcompassionately then it wasn't generosity on your part.
>>43321856Do you think that "Duty" would make more sense? You could do the right thing while hating a person
>>43321888Nta But isn't that loyalty somewhat?
>>43322035devotion, but yes.
>>43322035I'm not sure, I'm thinking of Saint Mercurius. That slain his emperor for begin a pagan, he was not begin loyal, but following what he see as the right thing to do.
>>43321888>Do you think that "Duty" would make more sense?Yes, yes it would.
>>43320670>feel like having a nice long discussion about the Elements Of Harmony.Personally, I am against them.
>>43320670I still find it really stupid how the series premier established that Nightmare Moon couldn't destroy the elements because they were concepts that the mane 6 represented, and not mere physical artifacts... only to immediately turn around and make the elements a set of physical artifacts that the mane 6 could be deprived of if you just took them away. It's such an immediate turn around that I don't even get what the point was.
>>43320670Yeah man I'm down with the elephants of armory, bro, fully, man.
>>43321550I've always interpreted this as the EOH exerting its own will to impose judgement on what's in a target's heart and deliver a fitting punishment depending on the circumstances. Something like what >>43321521 said about the world itself wanting to ensure the best for itself and those that desire to live in it. A mutual, friendly coexistence if you will. They stranded NMM on the moon to both punish Luna for her crimes and Celestia for both neglecting her bond with Luna and daring to wield the Elements against a fellow bearer alone. They stoned Discord because he wouldn't stop otherwise, but Harmony itself seemed surprisingly willing to humor Celestia's request of trying to make him stop his chaos with virtues rather than brute force. So despite this contradicting Harmony's judgements of Discord Twilight's spell using the Elements to free him actually works. After challenging the virtues the bearers represent, (presumably also to see if Discord's change can hold up as seen by him giving Twilight a working key) the Tree of Harmony grants Rainbow Power as a replacement and judges Tirek to be lacking. Yet the next Tirek does the whole villain song and dance again, he and his cohorts are judged differently and spared.This decision is overruled by Discord and the princesses immediately despite Discord being spared by Harmony and rescued from his imprisonment by the trio he himself united as a threat. And then both Twilight's rule and magic itself falls apart just decades later. So that's twice the EOH were overruled on a decision involving Discord. >>43322871Didn't even matter because they went and destroyed the physical artifacts in the end to insist that they were just concepts to represent and they can rainbow laser whenever all along. >>43321557I just head canon this as the world's magic having a will of its own. More majestic sounding that way.
>>43322871This is a big part of why all the high-stakes end of the world episodes post-RoH fucking suck. They change the rules of magic from being focused on emotion and state of mind to being about possessing the right macguffin. RoH barely gets away with it because the story is still fundamentally about the M6 losing their mojo and then getting it back. The EoH are treated plot macguffins, but part of the point of the story is that Twilight is wrong for treating them as plot macguffins and prioritizing the acquisition of the elements above the wellbeing of her friends. After those episodes, all the high-stakes shit is just getting the right macguffin or introducing new "the power was inside you all along" mechanics that shouldn't be needed.
>>43323045I got this idea or headcanon or whatever, that the harmony itself is this magical background thing. Like our world is filled with electromagnetic radiation that permeates everything, Equestria has similar thing going in with magical force called harmony. It's tied to ponies presence and their tending and caring their environment. As in, earth ponies till the earth, pegasi push the clouds and unicorns do whatever those boneheads do for common good. And that tending has effect that "mellows" the world around them. Winters aren't as harsh, summers aren't as scorching. Extreme weather phenomenas are rarer and milder, and easier for pegasi to control. Winter wrap-up is example for this, ponies have had intuitively come into conclusion that the land they live on needs tending. Snow would melt without help and spring would come, but everything is just smoother in the long run if you help a bit. It even makes ponies bit luckier, as in accidents are more rare and the ones ending up happening cause less damage to ponies caught in them. But that magical effect is tied only on lands ponies live on permanently, heartlands as I like to call them. But in the wilderness and peripheries, things can be really hard for individual adventuring pony because harmony hasn't settled there.The elements of harmony are kinda like more crystallisation and core essence of it with more "will" of its own to give fitting punishment like you wrote.
>>43323178That does explain places like the Everfree Forest, though even that place does just fine with Zecora (who respects the land and its ways anyways) and the Mane Six (who are the bearers of Harmony anyhow)l
>>43323721I'd say the Everfree forest is more about lingering cosmic corruption and its effects millenia later, because that was ground zero for nightmare rebellion.I refuse to believe something would happen just because somebody got tiny bit jealous, and claim that there were larger cosmic forces in play.
>>43324006I mean Discord's around, and he's apparently not the only draconeques out there.
They really fucked up the Element lore. First with the tree, then just dumping the whole thing on Star Swirl. Even a lot of the fanon ideas are retarded. It really should have just been left as a blank. Not everything needs an explanation, especially when you botch it.>>43320733>later seasonsthey were really only a thing for S8 and, if Haber intended the Elements to actual pass to them, it was another botched thing he did, as I can't recall a single episode that really plays up the idea. Ideally, each one would have gotten an episode that highlights the element they're supposed to represent. The lack of that--or even any halfassed attempt like the pilot had--makes me think that was never really the intention.
