Why is technically complex/experimental music always allergic to sincerity?Zappa is probably the obvious example. He's obsessed with composition, arranging, odd meters, orchestration, etc., and clearly takes the craft extremely seriously, but then all of the lyrical content is deliberately juvenile stuff about poopoo peepee etc.Mr. Bungle is another good example. The musicianship is good and the music is quite avant-garde, but they constantly undercut any possibility of emotional communication with grotesque humor, dumb voices, etc. Then there's math rock like Battles, where the vocals are smurf voices, or the various microtonal bands that lean heavily into ridiculous presentation like King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard and Angine de Poitrine. It's like there's an unwritten law:The more complex the music is, the less willing the musicians are to simply say something sincerely.
well maybe they're so sincerely technically complex that they have to balance it out so the lyrics are dumbjust suggesting it not saying it's law
>>131213698Because it has to contend with the fact that emotionally sincere but simple music like John Lennon's solo work may be far superior to technical fireworks that ultimately lead nowhere
this seems like a false dichotomy i'm sure theres technically complex that's emotionally sincerealso why can't you sincerely go pee pee poo poo, you can be overly sentimental to the point it's bullshit
>>131213732>i'm sure theres technically complex that's emotionally sincerelike what
>>131213698Because "technically complex" music is inherently insincere & insecure.It's like people who fart around with making pastries look like fish or basketballs.
>>131213698if you mix very serious musicianship with very serious lyrics it's too much. it's like a dish that's all salt no fat no sweetness no acid.a sense of humor balances the music and makes it a little less pretentious.
>>131213739Between the Buried and Me
>>131213778>insecureI think you're just projecting how someone else's excellence makes you feel, anon
>>131213698joanna newsomokay leader
>>131213926Apologies let me put it in your language.Complexity is cope for fags
>>131213739radioheadpink floydat the drive insome metal like certain metallica albums if you count that
>>131213698>The more complex the music is, the less willing the musicians are to simply say something sincerely.Bach Mass in B minor. Far more technically sophisticated than Zappa, Zappa is awesome though, simply stating reverence for god.
>>131213970yeah, not really beating the projection allegations with this one.you seem to be an angry man of small talent and even smaller discernment, so you get frightened and upset when things go over your head, which is frequent, and you mask your insecurity with anger and aggression.there is no point to a person like you.
>>131213900Correct
>>131213698I prefer his instrumental pieces. My favorites are The Little House I Used To Live In, Waka/Jawaka, Blessed Relief, The Ocean Is The Ultimate Solution, King Kong, RDNZL, The Gumbo Variations, Zoot Allures, Eat That Question.What do you think of Gentle Giant? It's sort of similar to Zappa in the way that highly talented musicians play their music but they don't take themselves too seriously. They're just having fun. Zappa liked them.
>>131214016Exactly, even the super experimental contemporary composers are often being quite sincere with their meditations on where God is or isn’t in the postwar world—Penderecki, Gubaidulina, Radulescu are all actively talking about God and history in their music.The real thing OP is identifying is that people who develop technical skill but don’t have the philosophical depth to make it in real art music circles do kind of burn out into becoming caricatures of themselves.
>>131213739John Coltrane
>>131213698Your rule only applies to post-1960s experimental popular music rather than to technically complex music as such. Something like the late Beethoven piano sonatas is a great counterexample because there's no relationship between musical complexity and emotional evasiveness. The reason is that with rock/pop music, sincerity became suspicious. Straightforward emotional expression started sounding too earnest and sentimental, so musicians started thinking they were too clever and anti-mainstream for that. They all created this conspicuous anti-romantic, ironic persona.Something like classical music is anchored in a culture where "serious" and complex music was already allowed to make big spiritual, philosophical or emotional statements. Well, until the middle of the 20th century at least. Before that, music could be difficult, strange and ambitious, and that wouldn't hinder the emotional aspect but actually intensify it. On the other hand, the average 20th century experimental rock musician started looking towards traditions such as Dadaism, surrealism, absurdism, punk, Frank Zappa, performance art bullshit, postmodernism, camp, etc.But ironically, making complicated music IS the sincere part. Mr. Bungle, Frank Zappa, or whatever might refuse to give you some straightforward emotional lyrics, but nobody spends that much time learning to play that music because they don't care. It is what it is.
>>131213698tell me you haven't listened to Rush without telling me.
>>131215341rush is not complex
>>131213739magma, john zorn on a good day
>>131213698All of his social satire was sincere, it wasn't ironic critique. Like he genuinely hated hippies, censorship, etc. One could argue the pee pee poo poo lyrics were also sincere in a sense that genuinely thought they are funny.Being all touchy feely sentimental or assblasted angry are not the only types of sincere emotions.
>light hearted lyrics = insincere
>>131217427Also, >muh lyricsZappa's music doesn't give much focus to vocals at all, do you think music only has "meaning" when lyrics give it meaning? Does king kong (on uncle meat) have no meaning for example?
>>131213739Yes
>>131213739BeethovenChopinSchubertStravinskyLigeti
>>131213698Tipographica does Zappa-style jazz fusion but instrumental so no off-putting lyrics.Sevish does danceable microtonal EDM.
>>131213998>radiohead>pink floydpfff
OP clearly has no contemporary classical knowledge based on his examples of "complex experimental music". There's plenty of sincerity there.
>>131213698It’s not you just gotta listen to more musicEasy example is Wetton and especially Belew era KC. They’re very up front and there’s really no tongue in cheek schtick. Almost to a fault around Beat/TOAPPPost also ignores contemporary classical and jazz for like the last 60 years lol Would also argue us maple wasn’t al Johnson trying to do a parody, really like a modern crooner.
>>131213698because a lot of musicians don't take lyrics seriously and that's ok if the music is good
>>131221156if the music wasn't good enough to stand alone without needing lyrics then it wasn't goodevery part of the recipe is of equal importance and if you're too much of a coward to make sure all your ingredients are good you need to get the fuck out of the kitchen
>>131213698Jacob collier tries to be sincere and his music sucks ass
>>131214941Good post, sincere
>>131213698Zappa wrote serious straightforward lyrics too like in "I'm the Slime"
>>131213698>but they constantly undercut any possibility of emotional communication with grotesque humor, dumb voices, etc.well thats because their intend wasnt "emotional communication" duhAnd mr bungle have pretty emotional stuff on California so whatevs
>>131221228>every part of the recipe is of equal importanceno, a song can be good with shit lyrics and good music, but a song cant be good with good lyrics and shit music. I dont listen to music for lyrics
>>131221228>food analogy
