I'll always feel that Pontiac should have stayed and Buick should have gotten the boot. Buicks by that time (late 2000s) were so cheap and shitty looking compared to the more comfy offerings of the past, plus the boomer market was slowly shrinking as they died off. Pontiac was a bit stronger in Canada too, so perhaps its also why I feel this way as we got more models here than in the US.However, the model line up towards the end was a fucking shell of its former self.The G3 was a rebadged Daewoo.The G6 sucked ass compared to the Grand AM.The G5 was a complete piece of shit, I'd rather drive a Sunfire or Sunbird.The G8 was a rebadged Holden.The Solstice was ugly and bloated looking.The Torrent was a boring crossover/SUV.The Montana was one of the worst minivans.The Vibe was a rebadged Toyota.Could the brand ever reasonably be brought back? Or would it stay better dead as so much of it was just badge engineered?
>>29042036The grand am was complete shit.The G6 is a jus a malibu
>>29042036Pontiac died in '79. Everything after was just rebadged Chevrolets to keep Pontiac dealers from suing.
Buick survived due to the brand's power in 2010 era China.China controls GM's decisions, not you.
>>29042036None of these GM brands made any sense by 1970 and they all deserved to go. Just badge-engineered variations of the same slop with a different "brand" from the same corporate slop pot.GM doesnt have the capability or even ability to make more than 2, maybe 3 decent vehicles at the same time.
>>29042207gm is the ai slop of cars
>>29042106Pontiacs in the 80s still had their own engines
>>29042036Yes. Pontiac Oldsmobile and a non-Chinkified Buick should stayed and Chevy should have eat shit
>>29042233B O P O P
>>29042036GMC should get the boot as well, the only original vehicle they have is the Hummer, the rest is all rebadged Chevrolets that maybe in the top trim have 3 extra gimmicks compared to top trim Chevies.
>>29042073All "G" versions of Pontiacs had the cheapest interiors ever. In that regard the Grand Am was better, at least.>>29042125I knew that, and that's sad as fuck. 15 years or so later, are Buicks still big in China?
>>29042036Buick was profitable and sold well overseas. Pontiac was a pointless shitheap that burned money.
>>29042278You are a ricer and a wrenchlet
It's sometimes hard to tell what is badge engineered from what. There has to be an original source first, and then copies made of that. How is that decided with GM? Engine origin?Even though Pontiacs of the 80s and 90 were pretty much all badge engineered from everything else, I always preferred their style over Chevys (and Olds, Buick, Cadillac were for old people). Felt more sporty. Something about the red arrowhead logo, I just liked it more. I remember they had so many wheel options per model. Now I don't see them anymore save for the Fiero. Was the Fiero the only original Pontiac of the 80s/90s?I'll admit as an older guy now, I sorta get the appeal of Buick and Olds. Some were very comfy.>>29042278>Buick was profitable and sold well overseas.Why not keep Buick alive in China and keep Pontiac alive here?Or was it the fact that Chinese saw American Buicks as peak luxury and if the brand "died" there (USA), it would loose all its appeal in China if it solely existed in China?How the fuck did China get hooked on Buicks in the first place? Last I saw of them they were not even "real" Buicks but just bagde engineered shit from some other car company.
>>29042269>still big in ChinaThey were never really big, but today they are decidedly not. SAIC-GM sold about 560,000 cars last year, but they've been hammered. Being American hurts them and foreign cachet doesn't hold much value when local brands have caught up and make better cars. GM's China focus has shifted to SAIC-GM-Wuling, which puts out 1.5 million cars and sells them under the Wuling brand.
>>29042036>The G6 sucked ass compared to the Grand AM.The G6 was a rebadged Opel Vectra and it was pretty damn good compared to the Grand am. Aluminum control arms and way better suspension. European features, like holding the door lock key to shut all the windows and sunroof. A big sound deadening mat under the carpet, it was alright
>>29042287I wonder if Buicks days might be numbered then.>>29042288>The G6 was a rebadged Opel Vectra I looked it up online and all the motors were GM motors were they not? So I thought it was an original GM product. Feels like everything was badge engineered by someone else by the time Pontiac died. Not even "real" Pontiacs.
>>29042283Why keep Pontiac alive at all? It's just a badge with nothing to it. Kill the brand, save some money. The entire brand was superfluous.Buicks in China were never "peak luxury". They were just nicer than most cars while still being affordable. The foreign branding meant the same thing as Toyota branding means here: they build better cars. That not longer holds though and Chinese manufacturing has come a long way in a short amount of time. Cadillac is still neat and fits well into Chinese maximalist design tastes.Buick survived in the US because it fit the role of a mid-level brand that was a step between Chevy and Cadillac. Buick also gave GMC dealers something to sell outside of work trucks. Pontiac was just the same low end as Chevy, and was cut loose as dead weight because it was dead weight.
>>29042298Yes they were basically German FWD cars with GM pushrod engines in them. a bit of an unholy matrimony
>>29042125The only thing China controls is the sweatshops that make my i-phone.Buick is only popular amongst ox farmers because it sounds catchy when you say the brand in a thick Chinese accent.
>>29042298Buick is going all electric by 2030 and will be GM's electric focus. Plans aren't well know, but most people think that they'll be transitioning the lineup to the Electra models they currently make and sell in China. Chevy and Cadillax will have electric models as well, but the price of most electric cars is a little steeper than Chevy's typical MSRP range.
>>29042281There's reason why Chevy V8 ultimately won against Pontiac V8
>>29042299>they build better cars.Didn't China have Japanese cars? I would have bought Toyota over Buick.>>29042300So the frame/body/interiors were Opel but the motors were GM?It's weird. To me if it has a GM motor its more GM. It would be badge engineered (to me) if it came with a Opel motor. Why didn't they use an Opel motor?>>29042315Are they even "real" Buicks anymore in China or just badge engineered shit with a Buick logo slapped on it?
>>29042036You know what Pontiac stands for, don't cha?
>>29042331Poor Old Nyaner Thinks Its a Catillac
>>29042036You say this, but I think GMC and Chevy should have gotten the boot, barring the Corvette and commercial.>Pontiac would be low end and most performance>Buick as mid market comfort>Cadillac for luxury>Chevy for commercial and Corvette>>29042331PixOtNgainTonyIAC
>>29042288>holding the door lock key to shut all the windows and sunroof. A big sound deadening mat under the carpetThe absolute state of yuropoors when some thick carpet and closing the windows counts as amazing tech.
>>29042469European features.No one said 'amazing' you fucking Hrynchuk
>>29042384>Chevy should have gotten the bootChevy is GM, retard.
>>29042493Jews have been dismantling GM for decades before any of the marques got scrapped. They made sure the lowest class trashiest brand would be the only one left. Buck is just a rebadge of Opels so it doesnt even count
>>29042493The chart is a bit misleading, it fails to factor commercial vs individual buyers, et al. Chevrolet caters to companies extensively, not only with just pickups, but also vans, cutaway vans, and even components for building step vans and school buses from.At least that is how I see it, but maybe you make a fair point with this chart.
>>29042594Fleet sales aren't going to even come close to closing the gap. In 2007, before the market fell apart, Pontiac sold 358,000 cars across all models. Chevy sold 2,265,000 cars. The Cobalt alone sold 200,000 cars and that wasn't one for fleets. Even if they did, so what? It doesn't matter to GM if the buyer is a garden gnome. A sale is a sale. Pontiacs were just rebaged Chevys sold at a loss. And since they were priced below the Chevys, they were destabilizing Chevy's profitability. The real end for Pontiac should have come in 2004 along side Oldsmobile, but for some reason they tried to throw money into trying and refire Pontiac.
>>29042073>The grand am was complete shit. Straight facts, my first car was a 2001 Oldsmobile Alero coupe and it was almost identical to my best friends grand am in high school. Both were ginormous piles of shit and both Pontiac/Oldsmobile became redundant brands and inevitably were axed by GM.
>>29042788What was so shitty about it?
>>29042635GM was always destined to be a faggy EV 1.0 L turbo hybrid eco nucar c ompany, so all the bad ass brands with the best engines had to be defunded into extinction, all so that we could have chEVrolet and mary barras new world fetish.
>>29042215Still doesn't matter though, Pontiac had been dead for decades before Buick was chosen and quibbling about the exact date the corpse stopped twitching accomplishes nothing.
>>29042036Cadillac's Blackwing and V cars, except maybe the Escalade V, should all have been Pontiacs. Their slogan was "We Build Excitement", after all, and they were always supposed to be the more sport-influenced brand hence why GM's "Performance Division" was originally Pontiac.In a perfect world, Pontiac would've gotten the sporty cars, cut out all the rebadged econoslop and moved upmarket to be positioned as "sporty luxury". Cadillac, on the other hand, would build the concept car land yachts that they seem to be afraid to actually manufacture.>Could the brand ever reasonably be brought back?At this point, no.
>>29042283>Why not keep Buick alive in China and keep Pontiac alive here?Even after the 2008 restructuring GM has too many divisions. It really should just be Chevrolet and Cadillac. And there's some question as to Cadillac. No reason Chevrolet couldn't do both ends of the market.>but muh Cadillac whatever!You'd still like it as Chevrolet because of what the car is, not because it's a Cadillac.>How the fuck did China get hooked on Buicks in the first place?Some respected Chinese bigwig had one long ago and all the Party apparatchiks copied him so of course all the plebs wanted to look like they were a Party member. China has changed a lot and all that has fallen by the wayside so no one but octogenarians gives a fuck about Buick now. Humorously similar to the US decades ago.Google AI says the guy was Zhou Enlai, Mao's top lieutenant and an early Premier of China. Apparently the car had belonged to the Last Emperor, Pu Yi too. picrel is supposed to be it.
I think Pontiac offered the most color-keyed wheels out of any other GM make.I'm a sucka for some of these style packages.
>>29042036>Poor>Old>Nigger>Thinks>Its>A>Cadillac And while I agree with you Buick is, for some godforsaken unknown reason, yuge in China.
>>29042799Shit performance, badly designed sunroof and lower rocker panels that caused flooding in the rear seat floor of the coupe rusting out the rear door panels, mediocre gas mileage on an underpowered V6, cheap 1990s plastic interiors, problems with the emergency flasher and turn signals, corroding coolant lines, and they are ugly as fuck. It was fine as a 1st car for a 16 year old but in hindsight, it is a giant piece of dogshit compared to even my C5.
I'm that poor old nigger
>>29042106>Pontiac died in '79Well I don't care because the turd gen Firebird is the coolest amerilard car there is.t. yuro
>>29043610The A-bodies are cooler
>>29044114I really don't like that period of styling and lacking pop ups.
>>29043448Bonneville? Parisienne?
>>29044263PARISIENNE!!!!
>>29044277Are you a leaf?I had a family member who had one. Basically just a Chevy with different tail lights and logos. Base model didn't even have a/c 305 V8. It was a solid car.
>>29044277What's the light on the rear pillar for? Is that factory? I never remember those cars having it.
>>29044286Landau motherfucker
>>29044295Probably a Brougham
>>29044283I am.>Basically just a Chevy with different tail lights and logosPretty much. Most of the time when I'm searching for parts it's easier to find them by searching for an '86 caprice instead.Also very funny because almost all the youtube tutorials for wrenching on these cars are by like, Detroit black people. Either Donking them out or throwing rally wheels and an LS in them.>>29044286Opera light. Speaking of I need to cut some weather stripping and re-seal the one because all the old foam has dried out.I've seen a couple of photos where they have lights on the inside of the C-pillar as well, not sure if this was a custom thing or a rarely spec'd option?Maybe I'll take a peak and see if there's an extra wire behind the sail panel for it.
>>29042319because GM saw the Corvette as their golden child and repeatedly sabotaged any other GM marque making a car faster than it?
>>29043057because it was one of the first foreign cars the CCP allowed to be sold over there. same with VW. so they took on an air of being "for rich people".
>>29044366interesting they rebadged the Chevy Caprice rather than just sell the Bonneville.
>>29046820If Pontiac V8 truly was better, GM would just use it as the standard V8 across all of their cars, including the Corvette. Just like Buick V6.
>>29046825BONNEVILLE!!!!>>29046846>betteryou mean "cheaper to build"
>>29042036whats going on with buicks i see them go up in clouds of white smoke at gas stations and stop lights all the time. whatever their tiny little crossover thing is drove by me yesterday and it was knocking like it was about to send a rod.
>>29042215Pontiac V8 was a chevy. Pontiac V6 was a Buick. Maybe the Iron Duke was a pontiac, but I think that was also a chevy.
>>29042269Yeah. It's a cultural status-thing. Chairman Mao was a huge fan of Buicks and Killing Chinks With Communism, so the rich and powerful are still into Buicks.
>>29044366God I miss when fabric interiors were this plush. Like sitting on a sofa. Automakers would never do this anymore, too expensive.
>>29047844>Pontiac V8 was a chevyNaw he's doing "erm..acksthually.." bullshit about the Pontiac 301 that was still available in the Firebirds in '81. Of course he's conveniently neglecting the fact that that engine became available in the Seventies so it was just a legacy Pontiac even if they did add a turbo to get the power up to something almost useful. At least until it blew up.
>>29042036>Buickthey're bring back the grand national
>>29050070Christ, I don't even know how many of those fuckers were produced. I knew a girl that had one and it was OKish, but nothing special. Of course it was 20 years old at that point hadn't really been maintained well.
>>29046884>you mean "cheaper to build"Cope
>>29042315>Buick is going all electric by 2030 and will be GM's electric focusWhat? Buick is the only brand from GM right now that doesn't even have a single EV in its lineup.
>>29042106All American car companies were killed in 1972.
>>29050103>I knew a girl that had one and it was OKish, but nothing special.Oh, I know. A MickyD's coworker stole his Dad's Turbo T/A, which was new at the time, and we went for a joy ride. We laughed at the Boost light lighting up but not really being able to feel anything like power. He'd said something aobut not going home again which was why he stole the car and it struck me years later that he was probably talking about suiciding. All I know though is I never saw him again.
Buick is a boomer brand. For old people. Always will be for me
>>29042036>Buicks by that time (late 2000s) were so cheap and shitty lookingBro those Pontiacs were just Buicks with shitty plastic cladding glued on to them.
I'm still mad.
>>29042036could just be a cheaper tesla ev brand if gm wasnt stupid, already has the same red look and logo>electricity is better
>>29051544Give it an LS V8 and just take my money.
