I'm genuinely curious how responsive to facts people are on this board; how willing you are to change your perspective based on the facts...China is an extremely homogenous country, being almost entirely one ethnicity (Han). In 2016 they scrapped their 1 child policy and replaced it with a 3 child policy. The government cracks down on feminism, censoring certain hashtags and detaining or imprisoning feminist activists. They even put a value-added tax of 13% on contraception. In spite of all of this, fertility rates remain around 1.0.Why does China have such low fertility rates? They are not a victim of white genocide, so what is causing it, and could those causes be what's actually also causing the declines in western nations too?
cause they let bitches go to school and workthe solution is not financial, its forcing them to marry early and stay home
>>535958604it'll take a while to change the 1 child policy for people
>>535958698I agree that forcing women to marry early and stay home would increase fertility rates, but in what country do you actually see that happening? Even in China there would be a severe backlash against such efforts.
>>535958604The Chinese government destroyed all religion and social structure in the name of economy. It worked, China's GDP has grown amazingly since the 90s (one child policy wasn't the issue, it was the social stuff), but the results is that people act like economic units not members of a community with obligations.
>>535958604Mouse utopia
>>535958604Chinese numbers are lies.
>>535959227why would they lie about having a low fertility rate if they want a higher fertility rate?>>535959018So a return to religion is what's required to get fertility rates up in the west?
>>535959176thanks for the tip on this experiment, will read about it.
>>535958901afghanistan
>>535959729lol, yes. So the answer is to follow the Afghani's lead?
>>535958604modern technology changed the environment to such extent that humans are no longer evolved for it
>>535959176The implication being that we're living in overcrowded cities?
>>535960025could you elaborate? What tech in particular would cause us to stop having children?
>>535958604Since 2020, China's real estate bubble has burst, and its economic situation is very bad. Young people cannot find jobs and cannot afford to get married and raise children.
>>535960288If the reasons are economic, is it also economic reasons leading to decline in "liberal" countries? What about Japan?
>>535960090- new awareness of how men and women operate collides with traditional expectations- sexual marketplace is globalized and no longer local- social/sexual expectations are unrealistically high due to rampant pornography and social media where everything is fake- lack of physical movement in day to day work makes everyone fat and unattractive- lack of ability to gain status, lack of affordability to attract mate and support families- lack of community support and social spaces to meetI could go on but you get the picture, just compare life now to how it was when the birthrate was higher and note the differences (not just physical but cultural and mental too)
>>535960031No, not over crowding really. He did the study many times, in one version he gave them an enclosure that could hold 4,000 rats, but it never got much above 2,000 before the population collapse. But, it seems proximity may have something to do with it.
>>535958604
>>535960432thanks for the sincere response. some of these make sense to me, others don't. big cities have very low fertility rates, but people there aren't fat and unattractive, at least not in Canada. There's a whole fitness culture.I'd say not going to church, and not having that social space to meet likeminded people is a big component.
>>535960432modern tech essentially increases the speed of societal change, people can no longer reasonably predict and prepare for the future cuz things are moving so fast (compared to pre-internet), so everyone including the culture emphasis short-term living.. families are a long-term investment requiring stability, and we live in unstable times..
>>535960916I think there's something to this. Women see this instability and don't want to bring children into a world that they see as potentially collapsing in the near term. Men simply have no choice b/c women have made themselves unavailable... on the other hand stats suggest young women still want to have children, but are just having less, or none at all
>>535960090>What tech in particularinternet is a big one, but you could also make the case it was the birth control pill 50 years earlier.. the truth is all of them - tech makes life easier by displacing the previous environment we lived in (where people had to care about getting pregnant and lived without globalized awareness)..
>>535958604>what is causing it, and could those causes be what's actually also causing the declines in western nations too?the morale, it doesn't improveso young people, who realize with perfect acuity that the world is turning into a futuristic totalitarian dystopia where they will be forever slave-poor, do not want to create new life in this hellhole, while also becoming even poorer for having to provide for their child
>>535961225Birth control pill is a big one for sure. The rise of social media seems to correlate with further declines in most countries. As other anon said, this is likely feeding unrealistic expectations, but also blurring the line between the private and the public probably is making us look closely at things we don't like to look at (the way relationships actually work, etc).
>>535958604China is lying about their population size. They are vastly overestimating their numbers by probably half a billion.
>>535961327Lot's of truth to this. I know of some western women who don't want to have kids because of the coming "climate crisis"...
>>535958604>Why does China have such low fertility rates?Why does every developed country in the world? Why can't even a single one of them reverse it?
>>535961692That's the question. I merely wanted to point out that China does not have all of the problems that often get blamed for declines in other countries. they are ethnically homogenous, still don't have a lot of women in politics, etc.
>>535958604the government does not crack down feminism lol what are you talking aboutthe reason for low birth rate is just woman. They demand way too much from man. Google 彩礼the government ain't doing shit about the women problem
>>535960432>new awareness of how men and women operate collides with traditional expectationsBut should allow to people to gain more understanding thus making it easier to "crack the code" and lead to more people being able to date/find mates>- sexual marketplace is globalized and no longer localWhich means people should have an easier time finding a partner as the size of their dating pool and available mates increase?>- social/sexual expectations are unrealistically high due to rampant pornography and social media where everything is fakeNot really. People know the difference between porn and reality >- lack of physical movement in day to day work makes everyone fat and unattractiveMost people still have to leave home and go to work. At home work have prob increased but not by that much.>- lack of ability to gain status, lack of affordability to attract mate and support familiesWith social media its easier than ever to show your skills and competence and also find a community of people who are in to the thing you are in to which should make it easier to gain and show off status. >- lack of community support and social spaces to meetRestaurants, pubs, sports clubs and so on still exist.
>>535958604You still have structural problems like lack of space combined with social expectations of a first world lifestyle and children not being profitable for sixteen years. You can't just reverse many decades of the old ways over night. Rome didn't fall in a mere half century. Find peace where you can.
>>535961847It's just what I read on the internet... so you're saying feminist activists aren't getting arrested? Yet, most politicians are still men. So you're saying high dowry means fewer marriages...
>>535962109Thanks anon.Lifestyle expectations do seem to be a big factor. In groups like the Haredi jews they don't have the same expectations around designer clothing, or sharing bedrooms, for example (ways of keeping costs down), and they have a TFR of 6 in spite of not being wealthy.
>>535959314>So a return to religion is what's required to get fertility rates up in the west?Mos definitely, the only people who have replacement level fertility are religious conservatives.The secular idea that we most all be slaves to capital and base instinct and not to a higher God and social society is equivalent to castration.
>>535961814But they are a lot more developed then what they where. Their middle class has grown a fuck ton over the years. And any nation that develops gets decreased birth rates. The same thing is happening in Japan and Korean and elsewhere.
there is no activist but that doesn't matterthe system is fucked, the law treats woman like children, they get pardoned no matter the fuck they do simply because they are woman.
>>535962372Certainly there is a correlation between decreasing TFR and decreasing attendance at church. Speaks to what one anon said about lack of community support and social spaces to meet, and what other anon said about morale... but even amongst religious conservatives TFR has been declining. The Mormons for example are still above replacement but declining.
>>535959176I often think of this for no reason and it freaks me out.
>>535962694but what is it about a nation developing that actually drives down fertility? That's what I'm trying to get at.
>>535958604High IQ people are insufferable neurotics. It's no surprise that when the entire country is like that they don't have sex.They really have to legalize hard drugs and promote them among chinese femcels if they wanna get anywhere. Make opium great again
>>535958604 >Why does China have such low fertility rates? We have the same threads about low fertility several times a week. I'm tired. It's always the same main reasons: >no strong religious framework (this is why Israel is the only non piss poor country with a TFR above 2.3)>women are well educated and participating in the workforce the same way men do, therefore dramatically lowering the only leverage men have on the sexual market, which is resources = therefore women simply do not need men anymore and choose to "go their own way" Plus other minor reasons, like easily available contraception, atomization of society, tiny families as role models for children (people look to the size of their own family when determining how many children they'd like during a lifetime), propaganda aimed at women (feminism). Still I see nothing wrong with this, no I'd say: accelerate. Where we're going, we won't need children. There are way too much people on the planet and AI will displace anywhere from 15% (lowest estimate) to 50% of current total jobs over the next 50 years. How the fuck do we deal with entire armies of unemployed and homeless people who have nothing to lose? How do we deal with the already dangerously climbing number of senile fucks who need constant care around the clock? As Nietsche said: if something falls, you should also push it. We should embrace declining fertility rates.
>>535963255In a nutshell, data show that the higher the level of a woman’s educational attainment, the fewer children she is likely to bear. Given that fewer children per woman and delayed marriage and childbearing could mean more resources per child and better health and survival rates for mothers and children, this is an important link. . But how much of this is causation and how much is correlation?https://blogs.worldbank.org/en/health/female-education-and-childbearing-closer-look-dataWhy does female education have a direct effect on fertility? The economic theory of fertility suggests an incentive effect: more educated women have higher opportunity costs of bearing children in terms of lost income. The household bargaining model suggests that more educated women are better able to support themselves and have more bargaining power, including on family size. According to the ideation theory, more educated women may learn different ideas of desired family size through school, community, and exposure to global communication networks. Finally, more educated women know more about prenatal care and child health, and hence might have lower fertility because of greater confidence that their children will survive. Female education has a greater impact on age of marriage and delayed fertility than male education. Although fertility falls when both male and female levels of education rise together, there is a large gap between male and female secondary school enrollment in sub-Saharan Africa (see figure below). Achieving gender parity in educational attainment could thus have a substantial effect on fertility rates.
>>535958604Because they allow women to have rights. The solution is for China to return to their traditional culture; polygamy and harems for wealthy men.
>>535958604It's modern life. I don't know why so many people insist that it's not that?I look at myself. I have a good job.I own a "big" house by European Standards not American in the city center.I'm 40 years old. Why would I have a kid or wife even?I fap to porn.I play video games, watch TV shows or travel for entertainment.I have so many hobbies I can't keep up.I can sleep and eat and do whatever I want whenever I want. I have no obligations, I have no nagging wife, I have no nagging parents. Everyone is gone but I am finally at peace. I spend my whole early life listening and bending to others.The responsibility and sacrifices to my lifestyle would be totally insane. I don't even want a pet because that means taking care of something, having to accommodate it and not me. Having to waste money on medical bills, have to waste time worrying if the pets okay, being sad when it dies.I see my friends with kids. They work 8 hours, then they basically baby sit for another 6 hours, then from 20 to 22~23 they have some free time but they're so tired and exausted they just watch some TV with the wife or some movie. This is not a life I want. It's a horrible life. But nobody wants to admit this. Yes I am 100% sure I'll regret this when I'm 60+ when my friends 3 kids are grown up, they can help him out and he has tons of other benefits from them.But I don't need to waste sleepless nights worrying about what my kids are doing, how he fell down, how he sick, how he didn't preform well at school, how he did or didn't do this and that. And I feel most Chinese men feel the same way. There so much entertainment and so many trends to keep up with you could just do that your entire life and be on an endless dopamine high. And all of that without any of the negative effects of actually having to deal with a life long partner or people you need to take care of aka kids.
>>535965702There way to much people on the planet in the wrong places. You could wipe out every African south of the Sahara and the entire world would feel no impact form it. You could wipe out half of India and India it self would become more prosperous and advanced.There too many people doing nothing useful to humanity just living and consuming resources.
>>535958604You don't need a high fertility rate if you import more people.
>>535968232Except these imported immigrants end up having about the same brithrate. Meaning it's a bandaid.
>>535958604Here is the reason. This is the truth, anything else you read is just propaganda: Modern people do not want to have responsibility. Responsibility is something that people endured because it was necessary to survive and grow. Yes, there is a religious element to all this as any culture obviously would encourage its people to become numerous and thereby expand their influence, but China's atheism is NOT the reason why fertility has not recovered. It is pure and simply because modern people, but especially modern women, DO NOT WANT CHILDREN. The only way this can change is to incentivize children. Money is NOT the answer, because no amount of money is going to cancel out the years of responsibility and stress that will shorten your life. Would YOU be interested in jumping into an investment that will eat up millions of dollars and keep you awake at night through much of your life? Of course not. Instead, women need to feel like if they don't have a child their life is meaningless. Every single country experiencing low fertility needs to pump out propaganda after propaganda showing the empty soulless experience people without families experience. It is quite literally the only way, the alternative is the entire developed world experiences an unavoidable modern Bronze Age Collapse in another 60-70 years.
>>535960501>he did the study many timesresults could never be replicated, but /pol/tards will repeat it ad nauseum until end of time
>>535968727It's true that in Canada only 51.7 percent of women childbearing age without children said that they want children, but that still means most women of childbearing age want children.https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/article/canada-is-among-countries-with-an-ultra-low-fertility-rate-what-is-behind-the-drop/
>>535965702these three things are correlated:declining church attendancedeclining birth ratesincreasing education
>>535969225Even that number is a flawed figure. Wanting something is not the same as wanting everything that comes with it. 100% of those surveyed could say they WANT a child, but are they going to give up their careers? Their salaries? Their time? Their youth? No, of course not. Kids are a massive responsibility in pretty much every way, if you think about it it's rather silly that countries in this situation think they can motivate people to have a child with like a free tax write-off and maybe a stimmy check or two. No, I think this only levels off when being a mom becomes the goal, not something you do after you've reached your goal (true financial independence)
>>535970559I agree the challenge is normative and cultural. I still think them saying they want children is important. Then it's just a matter of finding out what they're not willing to give up. likely their financial independence is key. That could be partially corrected for with maternity leave. also their youth. that one is harder to correct for. people are marrying too late to have many children even if they want them. the cock carousel is too appealing to women
>>535958901Whichever country does it first will inherit the world.
>>535968208 True, but that does not change the situation we're facing. And you know that your "solution" is a meaningless wishful fantasy, since we could never do this. >Modern people do not want to have responsibility A woman from the Victorian era would behave exactly the same, if you would threw her into this world. They were different only because the technology back then did not allow any different life.
