The Japanese should have scrapped the attack on Pearl Harbor, and instead went north into the Soviet Union. Vladivostok was completely dependent on the Trans-Siberian railroad for supply. All the Japanese had to do is sever that railroad and with no ability to resupply, it should have fallen very easily. With the Red Army getting its ass handed to them by the Wehrmacht in Operation Barbarossa, its not like they could really do anything to save the far east anyway. Stalin would have shit himself.
>>536630697Japan had been stuck in China for 4 years with no way out, the least thing they needed was another war in Siberia. Not to mention that the USSR had around a million troops stationed there in 1941. There was really no way for the Axis to win WW II, they were doomed from the moment Germany invaded Poland.
>>536630697japan had a puppet monarch state manchukuo to disrupt the communist revolution there. china would have stepped in to help russia for certain. it wouldn't have worked. a win for communism also means russia would have taken control of hokkaido
>>536630697The only reason they didn't invade soviet union was because they were retarded to the level that they were nowhere near capable of invading Soviet Union. They were so incompetent that even China (which going through a perpetual civil war) could stop the japanese by themselves.
they take Vladivostok and then what? no way Japan could push into Siberia. not enough soviet troops would be held back to save Germany's ass in the west, and Iran would still be BTFO and serve as a supply highway for American equipment to keep the soviets fighting.
What does taking the Soviet far east actually do for Japan? They’d be very far from their supply base and attacking an army that is better armed and supplied than them. I somewhat doubt they even could do that. By 41’ they had seriously attrited most of their forces in seven years of hard fighting in China, if you want to go on Russia then the divergence has to be much earlier than Pearl Harbor.
>>536630814>There was really no way for the Axis to win WW II, they were doomed from the moment Germany invaded Poland.Easy, ruin the UK, US now has now bridgehead into Europe, Russia falls quickly without lend-lease, gg.
>>536631415>ruin the UKHow?>Russia falls quickly without lend-leaseRussia received land lease via ports, not from Britain. And 95% of it arrived after the battle of Moscow had been lost by Axis.
>>536630697They tried in 1939 but got kicked out. At best they could have blockaded Vladivostok for a marginal effect.>>536630814Nah it's a simple matter of keeping Italy out of the Axis. Deploy the Afrika Korps to Finland and take Murmansk. The soviets run out of trucks in 1942. Uranus becomes Brusilov 2.0.
>>536630697occupying land doesnt mean submission of the peopleAsk Napoleon
>>536631740Afrika Corps was tiny by WW II standards. Around 40k at its peak.
>stuck in China despite equipment advantage, and mass war crimes and gassing>yeah let's invade the USSR lolWhy are neonazis so retarded?
>>536630814Ivan gets it.historically the only reason why hitler cared about the japs is to use their ships and to distract the russians, to which they did none of that. They really are in a faction by name only.Best hitler could do is just fully ignore the japs, and immediately sued for peace once france is knocked out. Do everything they can to appease britain before the yanks can fake any reason to join
>>536630697Anon the Japanese were not only in a bad way with resources, but there was interservice rivalries going on. The plan to invade the USSR was proposed by the Army even though it was already stretched thin in China. Meanwhile the Navy had a plan to actually gain resources in a southern strike, thus they went with that. However outright attack Britain and French colonies would have eventually dragged the US in. The idea was a quick strike to the US navy in Hawaii and cripple their greatest regional threat. It was a gamble that was (at the moment) strategically sound. Meanwhile an invasion of SIberia would likely have gotten bogged down. Plus Soviets were getting American lend lease through Archangelsk or whatever that northern port is called.
>>536631512>Russia received land lease via ports, not from Britain.Wrong. You got lend lease from Britain through the artic. We lost men and ships delivering material you dumb fucking asiatic nigger. I can't believe we helped you subhumans, what the fuck Churchill.
>>536631740>They tried in 1939 but got kicked out.You're referring to the Nomonhon incident. This was not an organized invasion of the USSR, and it did not have Imperial approval. It was some rogue Kwantung officers operating autonomously in regards to a disputed border. Not the same thing at all with an Operation Barbarossa scale co-ordinated invasion that had the Emperor's seal of approval.But another thing is the timing. 1941 is not the same thing as 1939. The Red Army would be very pre-occupied with Operation Barbarossa so you shouldn't expect the same result even from something like the Nomonhon incident. And certainly not from a full blown invasion.>>536630930>china would have stepped in to help russia for certain.The Sino-Japanese war was already underway. In addition, China was fragmented not just between Communists and Nationalists, but also a lot of warlords. These were often at each others throats more often than against the Japanese. The Communists definitely would have collaborated with the Soviets, but they already were doing that anyway. With the nationalists its trickier because they obviously didn't want their Communist adversaries to win.
>>536631134>they take Vladivostok and then what?Then start pushing westward. As you can see from that map image, the Japanese plans were for the 6th army to take a holding position in that direction. After capturing the Maritime Province, they could then consider pushing in that other direction. They could use the Soviets' own trans-Siberian railroad for their own logistics. Russia's Far East has oil which is something the Japanese desperately needed after FDR sanctioned them. Historically this was what spurred them to attack Pearl Harbor and seize the Dutch oil in Indonesia but we all know that plan didn't work out very well in the end. But taking Russia's oil fields instead might have been a better approach.
>>536632879Oil was first discovered in Siberia in 1960.
>>536630814Stop bombing English cities and focus on airfields instead. We nearly lost if the Germans didn't go full retard.Hitler needs to be stopped from meddling in military affairs such as his obsession with Stalingrad and not allowing 6th army to retreat.Not open 3 fucking fronts. Don't alienate the ukrainians as they were welcoming the Germans before the Germans went full retard and starting killing civilians.Germany needed to go full war economy, instead they again went full retard and continued living normally during total war whereas Russia went total war with their entire industry military focused.Don't go full retard and launch barbarossa in autumn underequipped.Germany easily could of won, but they just went full fucking retard.
>>536631740>keeping Italy out of the Axis.Italy definitely was a dead weight, but not having them in the Axis might have made things even worse because who is to say they wouldn't have sided with the Allies and just handed the "soft underbelly" of Europe over to them without a fight? Mussolini didn't really like Hitler all that well for a few reasons, especially after Hitler had the leader of Austria killed around the time of the Anschluss. That guy was Mussolini's ally and he wasn't happy with Hitler about it. Anyway, I can see the value in keeping Italy neutral if that could be managed but there's no guarantee Mussolini wouldn't join the allies and that would fuck the Axis far worse than Italy just being an incompetent Axis member.
In hindsight, the Germans should have ignored bombing the UK, focused air assets on the Med, and taken North Africa. Taking Northafrica for Middleeastwen oil was their only chance. Germany had the capacity to build more and better tanks and trucks than the USSR. Oil was the issue.
>>536631966>occupying land doesnt mean submission of the peopleYou're right, but Russia's far east is sparsely populated and many of them are ethnic minorities, and many of them had no love for Stalin's government.
>>536632035>>yeah let's invade the USSR lolIt is far less stupid than attacking Pearl Harbor and dragging the USA into the war which fucked the whole Axis. The USSR was already in the war with Operation Barbarossa, so Japan attacking them didn't drag a new major power into the war (Hitler had already done that). But it helps the Axis to win by forcing the USSR to fight on two fronts which historically they didn't have to do.FDR would not have been politically able to defeat the American isolationist movement if Japan hadn't made the mistake of attacking.
>>536630697The Soviets kept a massive reserve army in Siberia during the entire war for exactly this reason. They curbstomped the Japs at Khalkin Gol which is exactly why they decided to go after the Americans and attack Pearl Harbour instead. Their own military analysts did not think they had the capacity to invade the Soviet far east let alone fight a war of attrition against the Russians. They also only had shitty interwar tanks while the Soviets had full scale mechanized divisions, a T34 was indestructible to everything the Japanese had except artillery fire. When they actually did go to war the Soviets invaded Manchuria (the size of France) in less than 2 weeks and completely broke the Japanese army and their fortifications
>>536630697Aid Italy in Africa since the very beginningJapan should have invaded Siberia in 1941Spain should have closed GibraltarAlso Don't siege Stalingrad, take it
>>536632125>historically the only reason why hitler cared about the japs is to use their ships and to distract the russians, to which they did none of that. They really are in a faction by name only.Its even worse than that. Japan's biggest "contribution" to the Axis is the sum negative of attacking Pearl Harbor and awaking a sleeping giant. Japan did not only not help with Operation Barbarossa, but massively shot the Axis in the foot by doing that.Anyway, this discussion is a hypothetical scenario where Japan had instead done exactly what Hitler had hoped they would do: assist with Operation Barbarossa.
>>536630697The Axis had did not communicate with each other the same way Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin did.
>>536632544>I can't believe we helped you subhumans, what the fuck Churchill.My favorite of Churchill's follies was his decision to send the tanks your country had in Singapore to the Soviet Union which didn't need them, but he wanted to get on good graces with Stalin by making the gesture anyway and didn't think the defenders of Singapore needed them either. Then the Japanese attacked Singapore and captured it far easier than anyone expected was possible. If Churchill had left the tanks there the outcome might have been very different.
>>536633610>Anyway, this discussion is a hypothetical scenario where Japan had instead done exactly what Hitler had hoped they would do: assist with Operation Barbarossa.They would not be capable of taking Vladivostok and would end up taking a bunch of useless taiga instead, where they would not be able to supply their own troops who start dying of starvation and disease just like in New Guinea but with Siberian winter attrition weather on top. The Soviet far east army launches repeated counter-attacks and Japan cannot replenish material loses, the USA probably intervenes anyways and starts a Pacific Campaign with its fleet intact.
>>536631740>>536633237German retards should have helped Italy take Gibraltar, Malta, Cyprus and Suez. They employed 200k men on the whole fucking African front, while wasting 50x that amount in Russia. Taking Suez before Barbarossa would have wrecked British. But no, wasting 10 million men on the Eastern front THAT WAS REALLY A SUCCESSFUL ENDEAVOUR. But go figure, retards
>>536633319This. But I don't agree on stopping the raids on Britain. Bombing Londoners is an humanitarian duty
>>536633571>When they actually did go to war the Soviets invaded Manchuria (the size of France) in less than 2 weeks and completely broke the Japanese army and their fortificationsYeah, because the state of the Japanese garrison in Manchuria in August 1945 is pitiful in comparison to how strong the Kwantung army was in 1941. The Japs cannibalized their Manchurian army to defend island strongholds like Okinawa, Iwo Jima, etc. against the advancing Americans. So yes of course the USSR in August 1945 (with its massive and fully equipped and battle hardened army) easily mopped the floor with what remained of the Japanese in Manchuria. This was Japan's mistake in attacking the wrong enemy in 1941 instead of helping their German allies.And the battle of Khalkhin Gol was an unauthorized border dispute. The emperor did not sanction this, but at this time Japanese generals acted autonomously. That's why it happened.And no, the T34 is not "indestructible to everything". It runs on a gasoline engine which makes it prone to burst into flames unlike the more reliable diesel engine tanks the Japanese had. But did you know you can also defeat a T34 with something as simple as a Molotov cocktail? The Finns did that to great effect in the Winter War. You also ignore the fact the Japanese had a far better airforce. Tanks like the T34 can be destroyed also by planes dropping bombs on them. The same planes Japan used to awaken a Sleeping Giant could have been used to destroy Soviet T34s instead.
>>536630697>taking Russia from the EastSounds like a logistic impossibility, especially considering that USA would join the war and fight them from the West regardless, Pearl Harbor was just an excuse.
>>536631373first off japan just like germany was enslaving every country they took, so the soviet people and factories would have added to their war machinesecondly, japan and russia are literally right next to each other, it would have added literally no overhead to their existing operations in china, and russia was literally about to start invading japan at the end of it all
>>536630697Kantokuen Plan was abandoned because Japan was running on stockpiles when USA/Netherlands embargo them.Had they went ahead with Kantokuen Plan, they would have taken Vladivostok but then the empire collapse because nothing can move.The Nips werent dumb. Attacking in the pacific made the most sense because they needed oil to make the empire even function. Either they seize the oil in Dutch East Indies, or appease USA and pull out of China.Also there wasnt enough time.The Germans never informed the Japanese of Barbarossa (unironically the Japanese foreign minister visited Berlin in summer 1941 and Hitler specifically ordered that Barbarossa must not be revealed to him), so the Japanese only found out about the German plans on June 22 1941.This means Japan must: plan, prepare, stockpile, mobilize, train, execute, and complete an invasion of the USSR in 6x times less than than Germany before the mud/winter weather turns.Also, like >>536630814 mentioned, USSR had millions of troops stationed in the far east. The "Siberian" divisions at Moscow in 1941 is nothing but a myth that originated from propaganda. The divisions used in the 1941 Moscow counter-offensive were locally raised. The bulk of Siberian divisions remained in Siberia.
>>536633000>Oil was first discovered in Siberia in 1960.According to Wikipedia, oil was discovered in Okha in 1880. That's in the northern half of Sakhalin which was under your control, but through a treaty the Japanese were given concessions and allowed to operate an oil company there in exchange for money. This lasted up until 43-44. So Japan was getting some oil from this, but probably not enough for their needs after FDR sanctioned them. Still, they were definitely aware the oil was there because they were getting some of it. I don't know about other places in Siberia at that time. My information on that is lacking.
>>536636047>This means Japan must: plan, prepare, stockpile, mobilize, train, execute, and complete an invasion of the USSR in 6x times less than than Germany before the mud/winter weather turns.Its not like they had to do all of this from scratch. The planning and preparation had been underway since around 1933. Here's their general breakthrough plan and how it evolved over the years as Soviet defenses also evolved.Point is, since preparations were made to do this sort of thing anyway, it shouldn't take as long as you'd expect to commence such an operation since its not like they're starting from nothing.
>>536636761I am talking about major oil fields. Siberia was not a significant soursce of oil until the 60's. It would be startegically pointless for Japan to try and take - not only would they have to fight more than a million troops on difficult terrain, but they would gain little to nothing from it even if somehow successful. And the US was geting ready to fight them too sooner or later, so burning their troops in Siberia makes even less sense.Japan and Germany, despite being in the same faction, did not have much common interests. Japan did not want to sacrefice itself just to help Germany fight a war they had no interest in and would gain nothing from.
