their number 1 cope regarding ukraine is that "russia took 25% of hoholand so its winning". but most of this 25% was taken by a separatist force before the war even started, in 2014. how can you claim that russian military action seized a quarter of ukraine if russian military action didnt begin until 2022.the russian army seized like 4% of the remaining ukrainian land. how can the russian army claim the gains made by an insurgency. can a communist explain this to me
>>538267567Sounds like Kiev is burning and Amerimutts lost another 100 "volunteer" officers last night
>>538267567they held onto sevastopoleverything else is just buffer zone and free minerals
>>538267628thats a non sequitur irrelevant to the thread. also for some reason i had a memeflag on
>>538267567>separatist forcethat separatist force was made up from tons of russian soldiers with military equipment, sent to "defend" russian natives in donbabwe and luganga in 2014 alreadyso it was russian forces who took that land>chequemade, comrade
>>538267649so thats it? their greatest success is just holding territory they had "little green men" take by surprise?thats not really a "loss" or a "failure" but its definitely not the resounding victory communists proclaim it to be. it sounds more like a stalemate.
>>538267567they're desperate for even the slightest victory
>>538267706but you commies denied this for years. now suddenly youre gonna pretend it was russian army regulars who did it?and lets play pretend and say it was the russian army. okay, they took ukrainian land by surprise. but since then, they havent been able to advance. i constantly hear about "hohols losing because they lost a quarter of their land" but that was 12 years ago and theyre still hanging on. you dishonestly portray this as some kind of russian blitzkrieg that happened during the course of rhe war.
>>538267649Is it really free if you're having to pay the blood price to gain and maintain it.Those people you sent to their deaths for semiworthless land have families and could have had Russian children.
>>538267713it's a backwards frozen wasteland with an economy the size of italy, where the leading cause of death among men is alcoholismnobody believed they'd keep it against the collective might of Britain, France, and the Ottoman empire in 1853, but they did. nobody believed they'd hold it against the collective might of NATO in 2014, but they did.
>>538267567They haven't taken 25% lol. It's 18%. Russians need to realize that if they want to take 25% it would take another million casualties.
>>538267783>you commiesjust another example why we should never allow bongs into the EU again - not a trace of sense for irony
>>538267799Anon they lost the Crimean war to the point that it causes TOTAL STATE DEATH, that's not a win in any sense, well at least it forced them to change so maybe it was a win.>The Crimean War also marked a turning point for the Russian Empire. It weakened the Imperial Russian Army, drained the treasury, and undermined its influence in Europe.>The defeat forced Russia's educated elites to identify the country's fundamental problems. It became a catalyst for reforms of Russia's social institutions, including the emancipation reform of 1861, which abolished serfdom in Russia, and overhauls in the justice system, local self-government, education, and military service.
>>538267785if I offered your country a million young russian men would you take them? hypothetically, pretend they're not a terrorist/fifth column threat but just a peaceful addition to the UK labor pool. no. you don't need a million alcoholic retards and neither does russia. it's not 1850, economic growth isn't driven by stuffing factories with low-skilled workers any more.personally I can't help but feel strong emotions about the scale of the losses on both sides, but from the perspective of an unfeeling state they were a liability. russia turned them into an asset. they can benefit from the minerals in donbass which were owned by russians before 2014. they can protect their vital asset in sevastopol from having its water supply cut off. and they can protect that buffer by taking more buffer. if they ever get to a point of actual demographic catastrophe they'll sign some kind of compromise deal. I don't see ukraine giving up due to paying too much of the "blood price" because their excess men are a liability too.>>538267907>they lostthey held on sevastopolthat's literally all both of these wars were about, the Great Powers thought they had an opportunity to neuter a potential rival in both cases, they formed improbably alliances in both cases, and they failed in both cases.everything else is a distraction. russia does not exist without sevastopol. america has 300 warm water ports. you have 120. they have 1.we also forcibly militarized japan to prevent russia from taking an east coast warm water port. everyone overcomplicates a very simple case of opportunism - "what if there was one fewer Great Power? that would be sweeet, let's do it!"
>>538267799collective might of nato? i havent seen any us army regulars or SAS in donbas. i havent seen german tank crews or britisb air crews in there.
>>538268112>it's not 1850, economic growth isn't driven by stuffing factories with low-skilled workers any more.So why is there a high demand for low skilled workers and importing of Indians going on in Russia? Are they stupid?
>>538267713Yes, holding land you capture is generally regarded as winning
>>538267828Anon use a memeflag for tard posting
>>538267713the point of this war is 1) as many dead white goyim as possible, and 2) empty the lands of donbabwe and luganda in order for jewish settlers to set up shop there in 5-10 years when "israel" will be dissolved and a new homebase will be needed for the funny hat peopleIn this regard, the war has been a great success all around
>>538268495>I haven't seengood for youI've been following NATO deployments to ukraine since 2014, though most of our support is material>>538269505>Between 70,000 and 80,000 Indian citizens are currently working or residing in Russiathat's not replacing a million soldiers
>>538269677but russians are the attackers. their goal was to take ukraine over. how is them managing to hold onto what they captured 12 years ago, "winning".
>>538270171their one and only goal was to retain sevastopol, same as the first crimean war
>>538270619is that why they attacked ukraine in 2022
>>538271092>20222014>attackeddefended sevastopol, you obtuse waste of space
>>538271211they defended sevastopol, which they took in 2014 with little opposition from ukraine, by launching an all out invasion in 2022 with armoured columns moving towards kiev?
>>538271294>2022why do you keep saying 2022?NATO-backed ukrainian forces continued shelling russian positions and even cut off the water supply to sevastopol, during the war that started in 2014.the exact date russia finally got its shit together and went on more of an offensive is not relevant to our discussion.their one and only goal was to retain sevastopol, same as the first crimean war. if you disagree with that premise, stop being obtuse and say it.
>>538271498>nato backed ukrainian forces continued shelling russian positionsbut each year of the conflict was less intense than the previous one. the war in donbas wasnt intensifying, it was winding down. ukraine wasnt prepared some kind of grand attack that russia had to prevent. if you look at the numbers of military and civilians deaths in donbas and lugansk, on both sides, that number goes down to almost zero in the years prior to 2022. its in the dozens. not tens of thousands.and>ukraine cut off watertheir water. which russia doesnt own or have some inherent right to.they took crimea, so ukraine dammed the crimean canal. which they had a right to do. or do you mean to say that when a burglar breaks into your home and squats there, you MUST provide him with electricity and water for free?so.what exactly was russia defending sevastopol from by invading ukraine? and i keep saying 2022 because thats when russia launched large scale operations against ukraine. how is it "obtuse" for me to point that out, why are you so hostile ivan?
>>538271791>each year of the conflict was less intensedoesn't seem like they were done defending it then>ukraine wasnt prepared some kind of grand attack that russia had to prevent. if you look at the numbers of military and civilians deaths in donbas and lugansk, on both sides, that number goes down to almost zero in the years prior to 2022doesn't seem like they were done defending it then>>ukraine cut off water>their waterlower riparian states have rights>they took crimeathey retained crimea after a failed attempt by NATO and ukraine to change the status quo, which was reminiscent of britain and france and the ottoman's failed attempt a century earlier>what exactly was russia defending sevastopol from by invading ukraine?from the continued shelling and the continued threat to their rights as a lower riparian state
I never got your response to this>russia does not exist without sevastopol. america has 300 warm water ports. you have 120. they have 1.this is less of a legal justification and more of a "what the fuck did you think would happen when NATO tried to change the status quo in 2014"
>>538272577you do understand how disingeneous you look right now? yes?>well it sounds like they werent done shelling then!youre so smug but ignoring the main point, ie. the war gradually de-escalating.do you think its a proportionate response, to kill 1 million + people on both sides, in response to continually diminishing ukrainian activity and maybe 20 deaths a year on the russian side?of course you dont. but you'll never admit that because youre dishonest and pushing a certain narrative.>russia was defending itself from ukrainian shellingi hope a burglar defends himself from you after breaking into your homeand eventually when you retreat and try to hide in your bedroom i hope he grabs a kitchen knife and pursues you to defend himself further :)maybe then youd understand the situation a little better
>>538272861>you do understand how disingeneous you look right now? yes?shove your bad faith up your ass, nigger>ignoring the main point, ie. the war gradually de-escalating.I addressed it directlythe shelling didn't stop, and ukraine didn't rescind its joint statement with the US that purported to change the status quo in crimea.>do you think its a proportionate response, to kill 1 million + people on both sides, in response to continually diminishing ukrainian activity and maybe 20 deaths a year on the russian side?I think it's the biggest mistake NATO ever madewe already know what happens when you try to take russia's only warm water port, because an inexplicably unlikely alliance of great powers (britain, france, and the ottomans who were at each others throats forever and went back to fighting as soon as they lost crimea) already tried it once.and the result was HISTORICALLY TRAGIC. ever heard of florence nightingale? ever heard of the charge of the light brigade? half a league, half a league, half a league onwards, into the valley of death rode the six hundred.we cornered a dog. clausewitz 101. god damn sun tzu 101, common sense going back literally thousands of years. don't corner a dog. also something about land wars in asia.I gave you the legalistic argument, I gave you the common sense argument, what more do you want? we knew exactly what we were doing 12 years ago, even if you don't want to acknowledge it. we could have stopped this by acknowledging the status quo in crimea. now we'll probably have to give up even more, and ukraine has been ruined. we used to buy stuff from them. german industry in particular depended on them for outsourcing, and look what happened there. see sense, man.
do you need more time
The entire russian existance is based on coping. They are unable to ever admit weakness or having done something wrong.
