If you haven't read Karl Marx's Capital you have no business criticizing the left, you don't even know what we really think. Inb4>The labor theory of value is wrong!>You just want everyone to be the same!>Everyone knows communism failed!It's all just so tiresome.
>>539598325You don't need to study Communism to realize it failed. The millions of peasants who starved to death in Commie regimes during the 20th century proves that fact. >"But muh true Communism has never been tried!" Convenient, huh?
What would Marx think of China
>>539598325>If you haven't read Karl Marx's CapitalHave you?
>>539598325As if most leftists have read Das Kapital.
>>539598477>>539598483Capital is a critique of capitalism not a blueprint for socialism. Command economies were all failures, no sane person disputes that. This is a major liberal lie right here, that Marxism is about providing an alternative to capitalism. Marx's writings about what socialism might be like as such only make up like 3% of his corpus. But this allows you retards to ignore his criticisms of capitalism because you can just say "WHAT ABOUT THE POOR STARVING KULAKS IN UKRAINE????">>539598522Yes?
>>539598664But Marx writes about class fluidity in Capital as well. It is actually essential to the theory that the capitalists live in fear of being knocked 'down' into the proletariat and that some of the proletariat, by industry and luck, can become capitalists.
>>539598325Capital is God according to Marx afaik, Marxists are the real capitalists>>539598664Whatever this Indian man said is right. Marxism is a scam from white people
>>539599186If you had ever worked a low-wage job you would know class struggle is alive and well.
>>539598325Marxism is when brown people get more stuff, so I’m against it
>>539598325Spook worship, innit? One can see capitalism as a failed concept, or rather one working exactly as intended depending on what "side" you are on, without worshipping comrade Marx and everything he produced.
>>539598325>you don't even know what we really think.Silly communist. You don't even understand what they've written despite all the times you've read it. Just keep doing what you're told to do like the good little materialist slave, I mean comrade, that you are.
>>539598325>It's all just so tiresome.Sounds like you just need some more democracy and you'll be right as reign.
>>539598325>Inb4 2 + 2 equals 4The labour theory of value is indeed wrong.
>>539599238>class struggleThat's an interesting way of saying 'meritocracy.' Why do you fear getting what you deserve?
>>539598325labor theory of value is wrong and retarded though.
Who cares what blue haired trannies think. You faggots don't have any institutional power.
>>539599675
>>539598477It didn't fail, it did exactly what is was designed to do, asset strip the middle class and transfer their wealth to the jewish elite.
>>539598325"The left" is mostly liberal progressives. They haven't read Marx, either
>>539598325The main problem with the modern left’s argument is that socialism can be congruent with open borders. It’s not, socialism and open borders are mutually exclusive. If you go back even 15 years you’ll see the left was in support of strong borders and strict immigration policies. The American left took a dramatic anti-white (re: pro immigration) turn in 2016 as a response to Trump. You’d have a lot more support for socialism if you’d drop the overt anti-white agenda.
>>539599756Correct, SK flagged jeet. He’s in almost every thread spewing anti-white bullshit.
>>539598325>No I can't tell you what we stand for>you have to read hundreds of pages of drivel and then we can talk about what I stand for
>>539598661
>>539599324Class struggle just means workers see their own interest opposed to that of their bosses and you absolutely do see this in low-wage jobs. People steal, people do shit half-assed, people sometimes even try to unionize, everyone is acutely aware that they're being screwed over by the bosses. You say you've read Capital but I think you need to read it again. Most great books are worth reading at least twice anyway.
>>539599423Dialectical materialism is a completely retarded non-philosophy that comes from Engels, not Marx. You can justify anything you like with it, hence it was favored by all the great dictators. Excellent takedown of DM right here by a Jewish labor activist with a PhD in philosophy.www.anti-dialectics.co.uk/>bro what if everything was... like... changing or somethingThat's not a philosophy lmao.
>>539598325>labor theory of valueok so if i spend hours lovingly crafting a sand castle you'll pay me a bunch of money for it?
>>539599553>>539599494The labor theory of value is not meant to determine prices, it's simply the tautology that anything that is exchanged on the market is a product of labor. Capitalism tries to obscure labor relations as relations of 'things'; LVT is pointing out that all that is really exchanged is labor and the rich are simply stealing your labor. It's not even refutable it's a simple tautology. But liberals never speak in terms of labor of course with you morons it's always "le consooomer". This is called commodity fetishism, obscuring relations of work behind relations of things.
>>539600709No, see>>539600763
>>539600579>Though a small minority among this milieu attempted to rescue Engels’s and V. I. Lenin’s reputations alongside that of Marx from any association with Joseph Stalin’s counterrevolution, a much larger group concluded that the experience of Stalinism damned the entire Marxist tradition all the way back to Marx. >Drawing on a one-sided interpretation of Georg Lukács’s early critical comments on Engels’s concepts of a dialectics of nature, this milieu gravitated to the view that Engels was Marx’s greatest mistake. Thus, by 1961, George Lichtheim could take it for granted that whereas Marx had sought to transcend the opposition between idealism (autonomous morality) and materialism (heteronymous causation) through his concept of praxis, Engels had reduced Marxism to a positivistic form of materialism. A few years later, Donald Clark Hodges essentially endorsed the view among academics that “the young Marx has become the hero of Marx scholarship and the late Engels its villain.” Similarly Alasdair MacIntyre wrote of, and rejected, Engelsian Marxism for its apparent conception of revolution as a quasi-neutral event. Engels, according to this critique, believed that “we must await the coming of the revolution as we await the coming of an eclipse.”>In what is probably the most uncharitable critique of Engels’s thought, Norman Levine argues that while it is true that Marxism gave rise to Stalinism, twentieth-century Marxism is best understood as a form of “Engelsism,” a bastardization of Marx’s original ideas in which his sublation of idealism and materialism was reduced to a positivist, mechanical, and fatalistic caricature of the real thing. “There was,” according to Levine, “a clear and steady evolution from Engels to Lenin to Stalin,” and “Stalin carried this tradition of Engels and the Engelsian side of Lenin to its extreme.”>https://monthlyreview.org/articles/engels-vs-marx-two-hundred-years-of-frederick-engels/
>>539598661command economies weren't mass replacing locals with pajeets so that's already a better system
>>539598325AI completely invalidated everything written by communists. You are chasing an old, conservative ideology.
>>539600763that's not what it means retard, maybe you should read the book you're being so condescending about (or better yet read the guy who actually established the concept instead of some fat rich pseud who repeated it and had the connections for greater reach)also, how are employers "stealing your labor" when they provide the infrastructure (training, equipment, networking, marketing, planning, etc) that allows you to create that value?
>>539598325If you haven't read the bible cover to cover, you can't criticize capitalism since it is the only christian economic system
Hello gomrades! XDDDD Dis general is for disgussion of margsism-lebonnism, da ideology of rebolutionary socialism and gommunism.Gommunism is da next stage of guckery following real society.Wat exagtly is gommunism aggording to gommies:>Gommunism is a stage of guckery in which the produgtive infrustrugture runs away from gommie country, and no goods are produced and beeple starve. XDDDD>Gommunism in full form is obressive, statist society dat follows maxim "gib gib gib!" :DDDD>To achieve gommunism we must replace broduction with murderous obressive rulers liek me, fug working glass beeple. XDDDD Struggle while I liquidate you all lol. When capitalists run away we win and I kill you all. Eventually the functions of state cease and state becomes murderous and indistinguishablefrom other gommies. Da state withers away liek da people.https://www.gommies.gom/fug/https://www.gommies.gom/staRepublicansrve/GL uses philosphy of gib and starve, see here:https://www.gommies.gom/ohfugme/It is recommend you kill yourself so you can avoid starving.Resources:https://www.gommies.gom/ohshid/https://www.gommies.gom/1984/https://www.gommies.gom/guck/https://www.gommies.gom/probaganda/https://www.gommies.gom/XDDDD/https://www.gommies.gom/wheresfood/https://www.gommies.gom/benis/Da sdages of gommunism.>Sdage oneBourgers aren't allowed to vode :DDD but otherwise da system is digtadorshib of gommies. Everything is stole by digtadors and digtadors rule all.>Sdade twoWitheringAll beeple who aren't digtador glass starve. XDDD Once glass disabears and we steal everything more beeple wither away. Bolice begome unnecessary asbeeple are dead lol :DDDDD Central blanning begomes unnecessary begause sgarcity caused starving. Money is all ours.>Sdage threeGommunism.No beeple. No food. My money. Much benis.>Sdage fourNod real gommunism. Move on to nexd goundry :DDDDDDD
>>539598325I simply disagree on a foundational level, as in, I do not want equality, I don't consider humans to be 'humans' or rather I don't consider myself to be human. But it is okay. If the Left wins I will win. If the Right wins, I will win. Be careful!
>>539601344I have read it and this is exactly what he says, early in the book too. He talks about socially necessary labor and how the process of equating labor is something that happens automatically all around us every day, i.e. it is the price system. He even talks about gluts on the market meaning that the worker is effectively doing 'less' labor. >also, how are employers "stealing your labor" when they provide the infrastructure (training, equipment, networking, marketing, planning, etc) that allows you to create that value?They don't "provide" anything they just happen to own things.
>>539601624>process of equating labor is something that happens automatically all around us every day, i.e. it is the price systemyeah, that observation is wrong. the price system is based on demand, not labor. he added the "socially necessary" bit (the rest of the idea he just stole) to try shoring up this retarded claim, but it essentially concedes that the driving market force is demand>They don't "provide" anything they just happen to own things.semantics. i accept your concession on this point
>>539598325It doesn't what Marx said, you're still wrong. Class is something you theorized, it's something you made up in your thoughts. Race is biological, it's in your DNA.
>>539598325>illustrateddo some people really need everything to be a picture book to read it? what next? das kapital in tiktok format?
>>539601933>yeah, that observation is wrong. the price system is based on demand, not labor.Right, and Marx's LVT is not explaining prices. I've tried to explain this to you twice but you're clearly beyond the reach of rational discourse.
>>539602206you said "it is the price system"always trying to wriggle your way out of defending your stupid beliefs with gay semantics the moment you meet someone who understands themnow you're just shifting to some lame ad hominem faggotrydoesn't matter, you'll tell yourself you won this argument
>>539598661How would a Communist nation function without a command economy? You can't redistribute wealth to the proletariat without a central authority in charge of everything.
>>539602539>it is the price system = it is explaining the price systemDo you know what a tautology is? Let's say you put in an 8 hour shift at McDonald's. You produce, say, 250$ worth of value by this labor. The value takes different forms (cleaning the toilets, making the burger) but what binds it all together is work. Some work is worth more than others - the work of a doctor might be hundreds of times more valuable than your work at McDonald's for example. But regardless it is all labor, all of this labor is brought into one common quantified field in the economy, and the hypothetical unit is 1 hr of unskilled labor. It's disturbing to me that you can't read. I see more and more of this sort of thing every year.
>>539602795>Let's say you put in an 8 hour shift at McDonald's. You produce, say, 250$ worth of value by this labor.If you can create $250 a day with your labor, why are you going to McDonalds and letting them exploit you for the difference between 250 and whatever they're paying you?That's just silly.
>>539602948Because I can't run a restaurant, or a software development company, or a hospital, etc., all by myself. This is the issue, labor itself is socialized but the ownership is private. The vast majority of jobs cannot be done independently but only by working alongside others, with expensive machinery, and so on. Your picture is really funny to me.>I inherited a bunch of money>I deserve to own the means of productionSeriously anon?
>>539602795yeah, but labor is not the price system and/or explaining the price system (more semantics, huge surprise)value is established by demand (in marx's terms, as you mentioned, it's the "socially necessary" labor)you can keep being condescending while ignoring my explicit and salient refutations of your points, but it won't make you right
I don't need to read a book written by some other faggot to know you're also a faggot. Besides, you're really just some pseudo-intellectaul debate queer without any ideas of your own: you're just gonna regurgitate gay shit from books & dead Commies. You have no thoughts or ideas of your own, you conflate the ability to spew other author's words for intelligence. That's actually what makes Communists so fucking stupid: they really think reading makes them smart. They think real life is like school, where you just repeat all the shit you read and were told and it gets you ahead. Every commies HAS to treat Marx as gospel lol. They don't even communicate with one another: they just namedrop books & authors to sound smart to one another. Remember: one of the communist's greatest fears is their lack of intellect being exposed. Dumb people that think they're smart lol. You never attack them politically, you go after their intellectual inferiorities they try to mask so hard with books and regurgitation of theory.
>>539603093>My labor is worth $250 a day, but only with a bunch of other people, organization, management, advertising, and 188 billion dollars worth of infrastructure, equipment and real estate that some other people need to pay for.Hard to believe everybody starves when your kind seizes power.
>>539598325>Marx >tiresome Yes, it is. The (((theories))) of this jew loser who couldn’t even make his own way in the world without the subsidies of his family and friends have destroyed countless lives and countries.And when the hungry bellies shift to being a pile of skulls or bodies in a ditch like all communist countries end up, you will just say (((not really communism))) and pretend that Marx hasn’t been proven a fraud for over a century
>>539598325I've seen the results.I disregard your 'thoughts'.
>>539600425she's absolutely right, though. we have leaders for a reason, they are supposed to do things for our benefit. when they don't, we have every right to criticize and complainif you call the fire department because your house is on fire, would you think it right if they started getting all pissy and asking what you were doing to solve the problem?what about going to a doctor for a broken arm? are you a bad person for asking someone else to fix it? i love this form of argumentation, where you just posit something as wrong without bothering to explain or justify it, treating it as self evident.as rapist dr phil says, you cannot change what you don't acknowledge. shitting on others for noticing a problem means you are in cahoots with the people causing the problem.
>>539598325I'll read it, but i need to read freud and maybe nietzsche first. And to understand nietzsche i may have to read greek myths first. It's complicated.I'll get to marx eventually.
>>539601933cost and price and value are not the sameyou're smug and insincere and i don't trust you because of it
>>539598325DAS KAPITAL!SOUNDS NAZI WHAT THE HECK GOMMIE XISTERS WAS GARL MARGS LITERALLY HITLER OR SOMETHING
>>539600425its such a slave mind mentality to suggest that the people in charge are not responsible for the course of society
>>539604106>directly quote marxist, verbatim, in exactly his terms>he says the terms you're using (the ones he just used, that you quoted) are wrong while avoiding the point>other marxists come out of the woodwork to criticize your tone while avoiding the pointand not one of you will reply to the actual argument. but yeah i'm the insincere one lol
>>539602948mcdonalds stock is one of the best performing stocks, if not THE best, for the last 20 yearsthey can afford to pay more, and in many countries they do, with no problems shutting down due to low profits.and the ownership would be communal, not just him. everything about this and your arguments are strawmen.the argument is simply that workers should keep a much larger share of the profits, seeing as they did all the work to make it happen.in a town i used to live in, there was a plumbing company that treated its plumbers like shit, as per normal in alberta. so a bunch of them quit and formed their own employee owned company, where they all have an ownership share. they basically took over the whole racket and the previous employer is now on the margins. they also did great work at great rates. notice the difference in how an employee (slave) is treated vs a business partner or another business. they negotiate, take concessions, etc, but employer/employee relations are inherently power differentiated. i love how libertarians love the freedom and the free market, then go to work for 10 hours a day in some soul crushing conformist hell where every second of their life is dictated by their boss. wow, freedom. great stuff. gimme more. working as an employee is the shittiest deal you can get. it's literally worse than slavery, because niggers got free food, housing and a wife. now you have to go beg a plantation for a position, and you have to buy your own food, clothing, shelter, and transportation, all while living cheek to jowl in some falling apart sharehouse or apartment with a bunch of toxic degens. and with no wife or kids, too.
>>539598325I've read Marx extensively. The LTV is wrong, all value comes from fertile pussy.
>>539600763When someone sells finite resource like oil and it gets burned for energy does labor only exchange owners and the finity of resources is simply ignored? Sounds like a very shortsighted idea.
>>539603607a lot of the value of mcdonalds is the land they sit on. their value accrued through property speculation. even if the actual restaurant pisses away money, they still win via land value, and sometimes advertising, as you see a lot in touristy places. all of those stores in places like santa monica lose money on sales and operating costs, but since so many people visit and take pics, their brand and logo is in the minds and eyes of millions. and the losses are tax deductible.https://youtu.be/OAjkDnpXLogbased wilson here talks about how retarded it is to have a job, and how he made in 2 days cutting firewood what he would make in 2 weeks on a big fat boomer grocery store wageso yes your labour can be worth a lot if you cut out all the parasites leeching off the deal.i know people that did gigs, busked, and sold slices of pizza to drunks waiting in line for a club from a box he would buy from a pizzeria down the road. he did a fraction of the work a wagie did and made out great. the thing is too, is how did mcdonalds get all those assets in the first place? by not being psychopaths and feeding poison to billions? they get all that capital from exploiting others.
>>539598325Capital does an absolutely terrible job defending the labor theory of value. It basically just takes it for granted.Pretty much the only argument that Marx provides for the labor theory of value in Capital is to say that commodities can be vastly different in their physical characteristics from each other, so there must be a common substance to them that makes them values capable of being exchanged. He takes this common substance to be labor.That being said, he also does have a couple of important qualifications to his credit: Capital must be read as a totality, so the simplicity of this one argument doesn't necessarily doom the whole work. He also does make it clear that labor has to fulfill a social necessity to generate values. There's also the fact that he thinks concrete and abstract labor form a dialectic, wherein only socially necessary abstract labor time is value creating.Despite all of that, his defense of labor theory is not substantial. Essentially 0% of Capital defends the labor theory of value as such.
>>539605302he has to add all these qualifications to try keeping the shitty theory afloatultimately, the stuff about "socially necessary" labor is an admission that demand is required for value
>>539604608and the price is not only determined by demand, although it is a part. handmade things cost more than mass produced factory ones, normally. things that take hands on human skill to make fetch the highest prices. i was mattress shopping and i came across one that was $35,000, and most of that cost was due to prime materials (intrinsic value) as well as the highly skilled artisans needed to make it by hand, since these cannot be produced by machine to a similar level of quality (labour value). you just want to strawman and quibble people to death. you need for ltv to be only about labour and nothing else, which simply isn't the caseand i'm not a marxist, just someone who can read. he makes a lot of sense and his analysis of the capitalist system is pretty good for the most part. and you still have a shitty tone, and yes i will call you out on it. you come from the "he who abandons all decency first wins" school of debate. >Price and the Labor Theory of Value (LTV) relate through the concept of "natural price" or "value," which acts as a gravitational center for market fluctuations. According to classical economists like Adam Smith and David Ricardo, and later Karl Marx, the economic value of a commodity is determined by the socially necessary labor time required to produce it. >Market prices fluctuate based on supply and demand, but in the long run, they tend to converge toward this natural price determined by labor inputs. If a market price exceeds the labor-determined value, increased production and competition drive the price down; if it falls below, reduced supply drives it up.btw catholics, fascists and nazis all opposed capitalism
>>539598477You don't need to study Capitalism to realize it failed. The millions of peasants who starved to death in Porky regimes during the 20th century proves that fact.>"But muh true Capitalism has never been tried!"Convenient, huh?
>>539605695>handmade things cost morefunny you bring this up as it's a good case against labor theorythe huge success of the mass-production model illustrates the near-total indifference to labor in the value of an itemwhile labor is a factor in production costs it's far from the most significant barometer of value, and "socially necessary labor" is just a way to admit demand is the true driving factor while avoiding that icky "capitalist" word (i.e. semantics)>you just want to strawman and quibblevery strong projection here, i made one specific argument and repeated it while pointing out attempts to derail with semantics and adhom (like you're doing here)>i'm not a marxist, just someone who defends his ideas and thinks they're mostly correctok. sorry i hurt your feelings>i will whine about your tonecool, it's not relevant to the argument>total non sequitur about catholics and nazis
>>539598325> you have no business criticizing the left, you don't even know what we really thinkYou guys rabidly hate men and ethnic Europeans so that’s all we need to know. No, israelis are not fucking ethnic Europeans.
>>539598325I know what the left really thinks.They think mutilate children's genitals is affirming and wonderful, they think men having bowel sex is quite literally awe inspiring, they simply adore niggers and Muslims, and believe any border controls are racist and fascist, and they think violence is fine as long as they aren't on the receiving end.In short, they are fucking scum and should be executed by firing squad then thrown in a pig pen so their remains can end up as pig shit.
>>539598661I haven't read it but I feel like him making it during child coal miners and thinking the contradictions would collapse Capitalism but we've seen the opposite happen. From what I've read from second hand sources I do think a lot of his critique is fair but it kind of misses the point that Capitalism is a ruthless engine that works in a competitive environment and right now our world is dominated by competing nations. So sure a Communist utopia is a noble goal but to get there you need world domination and that has nothing to do with economic systems. We're so used to Capitalism vs Communism because it was the worlds first superpower vs the second vying for control but without those empires it's not really the same question anymore.
>>539598325>you don't even know what we really thinkNeither do you.
>>539606645>funny you bring this up as it's a good case against labor theory>the huge success of the mass-production model illustrates the near-total indifference to labor in the value of an itemlolwut no it doesn't, holy shit man lmaothe automation reduced the amount of labour, which reduces the end costs, price and value. >blah blah lies and gaslightingyou know i and everyone else can just scroll up and see what you said in previous posts, right? not sure why you're trying the tired old "rewrite history as it happens" but you might get the cops called on you soon for attempted murder, as you are boring me to death.
>>539600763>The labor theory of value is not meant to determine pricesThats like a fifth of the book, retard!
>>539606829marx was against all these things and the commies threw fags in jailthey also have borders, you must be too young to remember the berlin wall. if you are even remotely interested in learning anything, look into who funds this so called left, which is nothing but identity politics designed to crush the working class. it's all wall st. the capitalists own the left. dei was all blackrock forcing it on the companies they owned shares in, which is most of them. soros is also a billionaire capitalist who pays what marx called the lumpenproletariat to wage war on the working class. even the mass immigration is, in part, to dilute the labour pool and force wages down. this is done to offset all of the money created by private banks, which accounts for over 95% of the inflation in the us economy, not government spending. you also get to work longer hours in a more dangerous workplace for less money. this is classic class warfare, and marx hated everything you talk about.while a few countries decriminalized homosexulaity in the 1960s, most communist countries consider it bourgeois decadence and anti-family activity. even recently the russian communist party introduced a bill banning gay bars and clubs as anti family, and it passes with a 100% vote. cuba sent them all to camps, and stalin called it a sign of fascism, which is actually pretty apt. every fascist is a faggot fo sho. even hitler had a gang of homo bodyguards called the sturmabteilung, led by notorious bum driller ernst rohm. you have to understand those are not ideological people, they are tactical. these are called fashionable ideas for a reason, you have the wrong idea you are ostracized. same as if you wear outdated clothes. the merits or demerits of an idea are never debated, they are adopted because they are the current thing, and that lets them fit in.
>>539607952>The labor theory of value is not meant to determine pricesai because i want a prophylactic between you and me>Correct. While classical economists like Adam Smith and David Ricardo initially used the labor theory of value (LTV) to explain the long-run "natural price" of commodities, Karl Marx explicitly framed it not as a theory of price determination but as a tool to analyze the social dynamics of capitalism and exploitation. >Modern interpretations, particularly within Marxist economics, argue that the LTV explains surplus value and the structural relationship between labor and capital rather than predicting specific market prices. Critics from the Austrian School and neoclassical economics contend that the LTV is logically flawed for price theory because it ignores subjective utility and scarcity, which neoclassical theory identifies as the primary drivers of market prices. Consequently, most contemporary Marxist scholars view the LTV as a framework for understanding the social form of labor and class relations, rather than a mechanism for calculating exchange ratios
>>539598325>>The labor theory of value is wrong!Yes indeed it's wrong.If you worked you ass for all day to make goods nobody wants your labor has no value.
>>539598325kys.
>>539598325The theory has been tested repeatedly and found to be ephemeral bullshit bordering on religious delusions. >>539606363Capitalism is a jewish myth. There are only natural property rights, the natural emergence of commerce, and beneficial and maladaptive interventions by a superior force (the government). This is called the natural economy. Capitalism, cronyism, and communism constitute absent and maladaptive interventions which results in market dysfunction. National socialism is an example of beneficial interventions (ie: debt is not tradable property)
The day I meet a commie or ancap worth a shit is when I'll start taking a shit about your whining godless jewish bullshitSo never
>>539598325the funny thing is that Marx would fucking hate his modern followers
>>539598325Marx wasn’t a leftist. He was a statesman. He hates lefty rainbow trash, kikes and niggers. He also hates oligarchs and their bullshit capitalism. Now fuck off.
