>Immigration lowers wagesWrong, this idea assumes that labor is homogenous. If immigrant labor complements native born labor in production, immigration can in fact increase wages for native born laborers.
>>539976590How?
>>539976725It's like how a computer does not substitute the office worker, it complements him. Giving a worker a computer makes him more productive and therefore increases his wages.
>>539976920Why would an employer want to pay one of his employees more after hiring an immigrant?
>>539977086If you are an Englishing speaking manager for example, the firm can add more low wage manual laborers to your team, boosting the amount of output you generate as a manager
>>539976590>this idea assumes that labor is homogenous. If immigrant labor complements native born labor in production, immigration can in fact increase wages for native born laborers.Whatever rabbi. KYS faggot.
>>539977360It seems as though you believe that greater productivity from an employee or his subordinates means an automatic pay rise for that employee.This is obviously untrue, so what's the motivation for the employer to pay him more (especially considering that the employer is now also paying more for new immigrant employees)?
i miss smoking
>>539977583The idea that wages is determined by marginal productivity has been a widely accepted idea in neoclassical economics for like 150 years. If you reject the idea, you reject modern economics lmao
>>539976590If you were preaching this in 1970 maybe people would listen to you but we've had 50 years of immigrants fucking up the wages of native laborers so you can take what your saying and ram it up your ass.Leave your bedroom sometime.
>>539976590No retard,If a plumber makes more money - that draws people into plumbing, reducing supply of labor in other areas, which raises wages to draw them backWhen you effectively 'print' labour, like we're doing right now with mass immigration; you hyperinflate the labour supply, which reduces the value of ALL labor, not JUST one specific jobfucking leftists are always so fucking retarded, undeducated, and stupid about goddamn EVERYTHING
>>539977715I doubt that argument will work to convince my boss to give me a raise. He cares about money, not economic theory. So what's his motivation?
>>539977819You are not addressing the argument. I am claiming that immigrant labor and native born labor are complementary inputs in production. If immigrant labor is being "printed", printing more immigrant labor would in fact increase the value of native born labor.
>>539977841Ok, it seems you reject the idea of supply and demand. If you reject supply and demand, you can't claim that immigrant labor reduces wages because that idea is also based on the neoclassical theory of supply and demand lmao
>>539976590Big if
>>539978001>you can't claim that immigrant labor reduces wagesI'm not making that claim.Stop avoiding my question and just answer it, if you can.
>>539977965They aren't complementary, they don't increase the value of labor, you can literally look at wages stagnating and declining in real time while the dollar simultaneously devalues, every single metric shows you're an incorrect fucking retard that doesn't know what the fuck you're talking about
>>539978072If you are not making that claim, why are you in this thread?
>>539978101I'm here to get clarification on YOUR claims.Answer my question.
>>539978074The inflation and decrease in real wages is caused by bad monetary and fiscal policy. You should be blaming Trump, not immigrants lmao
>>539978141I already told you. The theory that wages are determined by marginal productivity of labor is the same supply and demand stuff you are taught in any economics class. It seems you reject modern economic theory altogether. What do you want me to do, argue the entire basis for economics?
>>539978326I want you to explain what my boss's motivation is to pay me more upon hiring immigrants.Think of it this way: what could I say to him that would convince him to give me a raise, keeping in mind that he doesn't care about economic theory?
>>539976920You might be the dumbest motherfucker on this website, and I have spoken to sentient niggers before
>>539976920So every white American should be given two shitskin slaves to work for him?
>>539978428You are a confused individual lmao. Your boss doesn't need to understand economic theory. Economic theory says that any rational firm will pay a worker higher wages if the marginal product of labor increases to maximize profit
>>539976590>immigration can in fact increase wages for native born laborershas never happened
>>539976920>more productive and therefore increases his wagesalso never happened
>>539978557I never said that anyone needs to understand economic theory. What's his motivation?
>>539978450Are you dispute the idea that complementary inputs in production increases wages? You need to take a class in economics lmao
>>539978590Ok, so you reject the idea that prices (including wages) are determined by supply and demand
>>539978206You're a huge retard. Kill yourself.
>>539978628>>539978647Ty for posting image, fren.Op, kindly kys
>>539976590https://youtu.be/gdQGHwD2bHs
>>539978623I told you: maximizing profit.
>>539977360>the firm can add more low wage manual laborers to your team, boosting the amount of output you generate as a manager>management occupations make up approximately 12% to 15%what about the other 85-88%
>>539978753How would paying me more (in addition to paying newly hired immigrants) increase his profit?
>>539976590According to that fake scenario that has never happened, you're absolutely correct.
>>539976590
>>539976590>If immigrant labor complements native born labor in productionIt doesn't
>>539976590Wages are not based on output/productivity.Wages are based on whatever is the LOWEST AMOUNT OF MONEY a man in given state/region/local municipality will accept to work for.Therefore CHEAP IMMIGRANT LABOR does LOWER the wages.The employer will chose cheaper immigrant laborers first and only consider the more expensive local laborers if he runs out of cheap labor to hire.That is 101 of labor supply and demand.You stupid swine.
>>539976590So send them to israel, faggot.
>>539976590>ifbut it isn't. 20 browns crowd in a state funded house so they can get jobs for half the rate of anyone who has to actually live on their own merit.
>>539978808Lurking on this
Why is India a shithole?
>>539978642If that is the case, why did real wages in the U.S. stagnate for fifty years after the 1965 Immigration Act passed?
>>539978808If you are actually interested (I know you aren't), then just read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_revenue_productivity_theory_of_wages
>>539979070These subhumans never give good real life examples either with this Vaush tier retard argument
>>539979070>Post hoc ergo propter hoc (Latin: 'after this, therefore because of this') is an informal fallacy that states "Because event Y followed event X, event Y must have been caused by event X".
>>539979106Fine, but can you summarize this?
>>539979106>>539978945Answer this you lying AI chatbot/kike.
>>539979115I don't know why you compare me to leftists like Vaush when I am clearly using neoclassical economics in my arguments, which leftists are against
>>539976590Holy retardation Immigration is used to lower wages and dumb down populations moron
>>539976590Kill yourself jew. We don't want your kind and we don't want beaners or jeets.
>>539979185>still not addressing my argument
>>539979106But other anon didn't ask about an economic theory, they asked about a conversation with their employer. Please link a description to the conversation that gets anon a raise.
>>539979137You implied a causal link between immigration and rising wages. Yet, the evidence shows record immigration - often in the millions - did not raise wages.
>>539976590>WrongThe last 50yrs of Productivity vs real wages begs to differ.Mass immigration, which is what we have had in the United States for 50+yrs suppresses wages massively. Its not even a debate at this point, other than people that are intentionally lying.
>>539979207>my argument in an idolized world where man looks out for his fellow man Name one time mass migration for cheaper labor benefited society?
>>539979261I am not arguing an idealized world. If immigrant labor complements native-born labor in production, it's profit maximizing behavior for firms to increase employment opportunities and pay higher wages to native born workers.
>>539979207>anime pic>implying shitskinned invasive vermin is good thing
>>539979323It doesn’t You keep saying if It doesn’t compliment native labor, it in facts degrades and hijacks native labor Again you don’t want to argue based on facts, you want to argue on “if”Either start faithful debate or get put on the wall next to the other undesirables
>>539979323>it's profit maximizing behavior for firms to increase employment opportunities and pay higher wages to native born workers.It doesn't.Native born workers will be unemployed OR will have to accept to work for same wages that cheap immigrants do.
>>539979323Give a real example please
>>539976920This is a level of stupidity I've honestly never seem before...I'm serious. Its actually depressing how stupid you are.
>>539979323That's retarded anon, it doesn't happen in the real world.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co.
>>539979420He can’t, not one fucking time in history nor modernity has migrant labor benefited the native racial laborer
>>539979323You are talking in abstractions and theory and calling contrary evidence fallacies. How are we supposed to debate with you?
>>539979106Your link literally says the opposite of what you're saying.Your arguement is more people = higher wagesThis arguement you linked is higher marginal productivity = higher wagesIncreasing the labor force alone generally lowers the marginal product of labor and therefore lowers wages.Want to try again?
>>539979463I know.I denounce the Talmud1488Remigration straight to the grave
>>539979432Everything I say here, you can find in any labor economics textbook. If you think what I say is stupid, then you reject economic theory altogether. The same economic theory that people use to claim that immigration lowers wages.
>>539979538>textbook Ok now the real world Mr college student
>>539979538>textbook>theoryretard
>>539976920Until AI comes along and even the office worker is rendered obsolete.
>>539979516You are still not addressing my argument. I am saying that immigrant labor and native born labor are not heterogenous and are more like complementary inputs in production, meaning it's more like the relationship between the office worker and the computer.
>>539979538>Everything I say here, you can find in any labor economics textbookYou can't.Everything you said here you made up and doesn't exist in the economic books.
>>539979603Ok but your argument falls apart as soon as we apply human nature to economics
>>539979323>ifIf.Invasive shitkinned vermin doesn't complinent natives in any shape or form, faggot.
>>539979538>If you think what I say is stupid then you reject economic theory altogether>The same economic theory that people use to claim that immigration lowers wages>the theory that migration labor raises wages>is the same theory that migration lowers wagesFucking kill all of you cunts Jesus Christ just fucking kill all of you
>>539979538It's not settled theory, and hasn't been for decades. > Reexamining the Impact of Immigration on the Labor Market, Harvard economist George Borjas argued that analyzing local geographic markets masks the true negative impact of immigration because native workers frequently relocate away from high-immigration cities.> He determined that when a specific skill cell experiences an influx of immigrant labor, the wages of native workers in that exact skill cell drop. Specifically, a 10% increase in labor supply reduces the wages of competing native workers by 3% to 4%.> Isolating Miami's native high school dropouts revealed that wages for this low-skill native group dropped dramatically by 10% to 30% in the years following the refugee influx.https://academic.oup.com/qje/article-abstract/118/4/1335/1925108https://www.hks.harvard.edu/publications/wage-impact-marielitos-reappraisal-0
>>539976920Invasive shitskinned vermin is not vermin is not useful, retarded faggot.
>>539979680>picking the one economist who dissents from the entire disciplineIf you read the papers that survey the entire discipline, they all conclude either no effect on native born wages to a small positive effect on native born wages
>>539979420>>539979463>>539979526The case he wants to make is that profitable businesses grow and hire more people and as they grow, (sometimes) promote their workers as the complexity of the business grows. But it's retarded because mass migration doesn't just make one business more efficient, it makes them all more efficient by... making labor cheaper.
>>539979773And yet, their findings don't correspond to reality- as we have discussed.
>>539978001>supply and demand wagesfor your theory to work workers would need to know exactly how much their labor is worth, their employers and the client would need to be able to know how much labor was put into somethingone of the main problems with "immigrant" labor is they have dubious credentials and get hired by the largest companies which lowers standards. and then you say, well people will just go somewhere else. nope, women especially have no idea if you put a pump or a bomb under their house. and since this is a female orientated immigrant labor consumption economy you should definitely start seeing fruits
>>539979823If you understood economics, you would understand "ceteris paribus". You can't blame immigration for lower wages since many other factors have changed. If economic analysis was that easy, there would be no need for econometrics lmao
>>539979899>women especially have no idea if you put a pump or a bomb under their house. and since this is a female orientated immigrant labor consumption economy you should definitely start seeing fruitsAdvanced civilization and White civilization in particular relies heavily on trust. Even putting aside the devastating consequences to wages and housing prices, mass migration destroys social trust and destroys society overall. Destroys any sense of civic duty and culutural connectedness.
>>539979603Your entire argument has already fallen apart because most immigration especially H1B's are substitutions. You think 100million indians going to America or open borders would result in endless doctors or some sort of high skilled engineers.You don't even comprehend what you've linked or what your arguement even is you're just blindly claiming your assertions are true.
>>539979935If your assertions were true, American wages would not have stagnated. There were obviously other compounding economic factors, but the idea immigration raises wages is disproven by the fact they haven't increased at all. This is what I mean by not corresponding to reality, yes. We already know how captured academia is by "the interests" anyway.
>>539979538>appeal to authority
>>539979935>You can't blame immigration for lower wages since many other factors have changed.Supply and demand curve is an unavoidable law of the universe
>>539980038H1B's are definitely not the majority of immigration. Most immigration is from non-skilled labor.
>>539979935>you can’t blame immigration for lower wages even though historically I cannot name one time this occurred
>>539980051You are being stupid. If immigration has a +2% positive effect on wages over a 10 year period, but over that same period, a low unionization has negative -3% effect and corporate monopolization has a -2% negative effect, that's a net effect of -3%. That's why you can't use "Post hoc ergo propter hoc" reasoning
>>539976590>>539976920>>539978753>>539979106You're a Randroid, aren't you?
>>539976590immigration is what made america feel like there's freedom, when it was white immigration the whites were free, when the beaners immigrated here the niggers have never enjoyed so much american freedom
why whites dialed back that brown immigration to re-enslave the nig nogs
>>539980309I am an anarcho-capitalist but not a Randroid. I used to be an Austrian economics type of guy but studied econ in college on became an anarcho-capitalist who uses neo-classical economics to justify anarcho-capitalism
>>539980309>“On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.”
>>539976590What the fuck is “complementing native born labor” even supposed to mean you insipid cunt?
>>539980091H1Bs are just offices filled with fucking jeets that'll work for lower wagesJust another reason why Capitalism is retarded and gay
>>539980419He knows that his presidential pardon only works for federal crimes. He can still be prosecuted by individual states and Florida has opened an investigation on Fauci. The scope of his crime is so big that any jurisdiction in this country could try him for murder.
>>539980470Think of a doctor and a nurse. A nurse does not substitute the doctor. Hiring more nurses in fact allows the doctors to treat more people.
>>539977360your entire premise is undermined by the fact that we have 50 years of data that refutes what you are saying.
>>539980652About 71% of approved H-1B petitions go to people born in India, according to the latest U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) data for Fiscal Year 2024.Only 11% for Chinks, Indians are subhuman level retarded so i'll gauge America only gains around 50k "talented" H1Bs per year.
>>539976590>Wrong, this idea assumes that labor is homogenous.It doesn't assume that? >If immigrant labor complements native born labor in production, It doesn't. Not in the West anyhow, in third world countries it would be true for first world immigrants. > immigration can in fact increase wages for native born laborers.No it could theoretically increase productivity but why would that go to the laborers? Also we know this isn't the case as wages have been stagnant for 50 years coinciding with global free trade.
>>539977715>The idea that wages is determined by marginal productivity has been a widely accepted idea in neoclassical economics for like 150 years.No wage is determined by the price you can negotiate in the labor market. It's not the amount of money you make as a manager, it's the amount of money you make as a manager compared to all the other people who want to be managers. What you're neglecting is that you haven't just increased the number of workers who sit under a manager, you've increased the number of people who are vying for the same managerial position, and they will try to undercut eachother to get the same job because they are now more desperate
>>539980881Hes a shitskin trying to justifying shitskins dumping their subhuman trash in the west. Doesn't even understand his own theory of wages
>>539976590Well it demonstrably doesn't. Great theorycrafting, moron.
>>539980881>>539981210These
>>539976920You made all the chuds that flunked out of school upset
>>539976590>If immigrant labor complements native born labor in production, immigration can in fact increase wages for native born laborers.mind you it doesn't and wont, but y'know
>>539977715What a retard. Everyone point and laugh.No shill-kun, there is a two tier system where INVESTORS receive dividends for increases in productivity and labourers (a manager is a type of labour) are whittled down because labour is the only cost that businesses can realistically impact, hence immigration depressing wages. "Neoclassical econmics" isnt a phrase to describe economics, you charlatan.
>>539981747it works when it's someone actually skilled like a white person. these retarded kikes flood the west with third world detritus and say theyre philosopher kings>the ball is red
>>539978557Productivity may create the capacity to pay higher wages, but it doesn't compel firms to do so. You're confusing a simplified equilibrium model with an empirical law. Firms don't maximize wages; they maximize profits. If a worker's productivity doubles but the employer can retain them at the same salary, the profit-maximizing decision is to keep the difference, not give it away. The textbook mechanism only works when labor markets are competitive enough that rival employers bid productive workers away. In markets with weak bargaining power, labor-market frictions, or employer concentration, productivity gains accrue disproportionately to capital instead of labor. That's precisely why wage stagnation alongside rising productivity has been one of the defining economic debates of the past half-century. Labor's price is determined less by what it produces than by how easily it can be replaced. This is pretty simple, common-sense, observable shit.
>>539976590Retard
>>539982321Op is a tranny
>>539982756Is everyone who effortposts even a little bit now a tranny?Is that why this board is so full of shitheel faggots and slide threads (like this one)?
>>539980652Yeah, but the immigrant nurse IS a direct replacement for the domestic nurse.You are very disingenuously taking one specific mechanism where immigration MIGHT result in a domestic employee getting a pay raise and applying it broadly to the entire job market. That’s NOT how things have shaken outThe vast majority of immigration labor has been substitutional NOT complementary.>>539980236No YOU are being fucking stupid. Low unionization is NOT a separate issue from the immigration question. Who the fuck do you think took up the positions that the formerly unionized domestic workforce lost in the instance when that work wasn’t outsourced?
>>539977715There's been a complete disconnection from wages and productivity in the last decades.The idea that productivity somehow determines wages is absurd and goes against contract theory.t. Actual economist
>>539982756Worse, he's economically illiterate yet he pretends to be an expert on the subject
>(((globalism))) promised:turd world will make our shit = cheap T. V.'s + and exclusively, high tech, high skilled, innovation-based economy => higher wages>(((globalism))) delivered:cheap shit everything, which breaks down in months - the manufacturing base to makes anything - the skills that manufacturing once created - the skills which fertilise innovation - purchasing power + hyper-inflation => dissolution of the [erstwhile] First Worldhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwmOkaKh3-s#NoRefunds
>>539983013this place is just a rhetoric farm for low iq leftists and low iq spooks now(?) seeing them test propaganda on /his/ and watching it backfeed through twitter migrants and kikesalso they come here for validation or something
>>539983522There’s nothing “forensic” about taking one extra step past some Econ 101 horseshit reduction. This is barely even model thinking.The only halfway defensible pushback is that productivity gains are jointly produced by labor, capital, tech, management, whatever, and that productivity (not replaceability) is what ultimately grounds labor’s value. Fine. That still doesn’t answer the actual question, which is who gets the fucking money.Jointly creating value does not magically determine who captures it. Saying capital helped produce the gain does not explain why capital should get to vacuum up most of it by default.Productivity tells you how much surplus exists. Ownership, bargaining power, replaceability, and market structure tell you who pockets it. So “productivity grounds labor’s value” is beside the point. Productivity only explains where it came from. The rest is capital control. Don't tell me you actually agree with OP?
>>539976590>WrongIf you value-adding to an economy comes from importing the planet's least evolved constituents, then you are as retarded as you are Jewish.
>>539976590It lowers wages because it's illegal, which is essentially modern day slavery or serfs at best.
>>539984308what about quality
>>539984455Quality according to whom—the person using it, the firm selling it, or the market being trained to want it?And since when did “people bought it” become proof that it was any good?Pic rel-
>>539984308I didn't say any of that. I'm fully with the Chinese model, and think that the adoption of a finance based economic model has destroyed the West, and not just in the consumers market but in the costs every business faces
>>539984652is a cellphone worth 300 gallons of milk?
